Differing thoughts on prayer

[RB TexLa]

Friend sent this as an e-mail, I'm sure it's something that gets forwarded around from time to time but I had never seen it in an e-mail or here. Just thought it was a nice story.


A voyaging ship was wrecked during a storm at sea and only two of the men on it were able to swim to a small, desert like island. The two survivors, not knowing what else to do, agree that they had no other recourse but to pray to God. However, to find out whose prayer was more powerful, they agreed to divide the territory between them and stay on opposite sides of the island.

The first thing they prayed for was food. The next morning, the first man saw a fruit-bearing tree on his side of the land, and he was able to eat its fruit. The other man's parcel of land remained barren.

After a week, the first man was lonely and he decided to pray for a wife. The next day, another ship was wrecked, and the only survivor was a woman who swam to his side of the land. On the other side of the island, there was nothing.
Soon the first man prayed for a house, clothes, more food. The next day, like magic, all of these were given to him. However, the second man still had nothing. Finally, the first man prayed for a ship, so that he and his wife could leave the island. In the morning, he found a ship docked at his side of the island. The first man boarded the ship with his wife and decided to leave the second man on the island. He considered the other man unworthy to receive God's blessings, since none of his prayers had been answered.

As the ship was about to leave, the first man heard a voice from heaven booming, "Why are you leaving your companion on the island?"

"My blessings are mine alone, since I was the one who prayed for them," the first man answered. "His prayers were all unanswered and so he does not deserve anything."

"You are mistaken!" the voice rebuked him. "He had only one prayer, which I answered. If not for that, you would not have received any of my blessings."

"Tell me," the first man asked the voice, "what did he pray for that I should owe him anything?"

"He prayed that all your prayers be answered."

[InaneAnanity]

1. Saw that coming a mile away

[trotsky]

2. How did the shipwrecked woman become his wife?

Did they leave out the part where he prayed for a clergyman to marry them? And did the woman have any choice in marrying him? Or is she just "property" that was wished for? Did God violate her free will by shipwrecking her just to answer the prayer? Can we get God to violate other people's free will for our convenience, too?

Finally, why doesn't God really speak out in a booming voice to everyone and let them know who the REAL believers are?

[Jeroen]

3. Keep thinking. You will figure it out.

[trotsky]

4. Well, that's helpful!

Sorry, but thinking is what led me away from religion.

[Jeroen]

5. Your are right, that wasn't helpful. Let me explain:

He started his post with: "Just thought it was a nice story."
Sometimes there is beauty to be found in religious stories like these, sometimes clichés ;-)
I think it is obvious that he just wanted to share 'his story' because he likes it.
If you don’t like it: fine.

But you start with all these questions. And you ask those questions not because you want to know the answers, obviously, but because you hope he doesn’t have any. (You know perfectly well he doesn’t have any, and you know he knows)

Debates, yes of course, but this is also a forum where people should be able to freely share religious or spiritual thoughts, ideas and believes without immediately being questioned by the Atheists Fanatics Inquisition Board. This forum is more then just a battleground of believes, the atheists versus the Christian lunatics.

Like I said. Keep thinking. You are right. Thinking leads you away, not only from religion but also from your own spirituality. People are spiritual beings, but I guess you disagree.

[beam me up scottie]

6. Sorry, if you don't like questions, post in the groups.

We have the right to question the op or anyone else who freely share(s) religious or spiritual thoughts in this forum.

trotsky was polite and respectful of the op, too bad we can't say the same for you and your response to him.

Does your aversion to thinking justify insulting other posters because you dislike their questions?





Can you say "hypocrisy", children?

I knew you could.

[Jeroen]

7. Of course we have a right to ask questions

Of course we have a right to ask questions. We also have a right to question the questions.

I could say something like ‘the Bible is God's word and therefore it is true’,
You could question this believe. I would consider your question valid and constituent in the context of our argument. In others words: my statement is designed to evoke a discussion. It is open for debate.

I could also say something like “I find this passage in the Bible very touching and it has a special meaning to me”. You could, of course, immediately question my believe and argue that the Bible is written by many people throughout the centuries. But then you would miss the point. You have the right to do so, but in this case you would not question the Bible, you would question my believe or felt experience directly (being touched). An experience that cannot be described by words and which cannot be rationalized or explained by logic thinking. This experience would be out of the realm of language and thought. People who believe often become very sensitive because the have no means to defend themselves (arguments). Faith it irrational. Your question would certainly be justified, but you may wonder if it is sensitive.

It was not my intention to be disrespectful and I don’t dislike questions or thinking.
But Trotsky is right: thinking leads away from religion.

I am sure you know why Buddhists meditate: to bring thinking (or thought) to a calm.
It doesn’t mean that Buddhist don’t think, on the contrary. They question every thought.
But in general not when they meditate. If you would ask the Dalai Lama if there is a God, He will probably not answer your question directly. But if you ask Him if he is religious he will say yes.

You probably think I am a Christian, but I am not. I don’t believe in a Supreme being.
If you ask me if I believe in God, I would probably not answer your question because I wouldn't know which God you are referring to.
I know that I can be better person. I will think about the comments you made.

[trotsky]

8. The "Atheists Fanatics Inquisition Board"?

Wow, that's quite the creative phrase. It makes me think of some more questions:

1) What is an "atheist fanatic"?
2) Am I one? Why?
3) How can atheists have an Inquisition? That was your guys.

And I do ask those questions to get answers - but they never come. Instead people like you respond, and belittle atheists or accuse them of being like the worst of your own religion.

Like bmus said, this is a forum. Questions get asked. Beliefs are challenged. People can indeed "share religious or spiritual thoughts, ideas and believes without immediately being questioned" if they head on over to one of the multiple DU Groups on religion.

[Jeroen]

9. I will give it a try, but don’t take it to serious or offensive.

1.
An atheist has ruled out any possibility of a (higher) purpose of the Universe. Life has no meaning other then life itself. He or she rejects the concept of an eternal Soul, the afterlife or reincarnation. People, like all other living beings, are born once without a (higher) purpose and have come to existence by change. An atheist has an intellectual, rational, scientific vision of the universe. Knowledge of the universe can only be acquired by experimental study and research.

The tricky part:
An atheist fanatic has a strong desire to express and share his or her intellectual view on life and the universe. He or she is determined to question the believes of others because he or she is convinced that religion is a dangerous delusion. He or she often thinks that religion is the opposite of freedom and that religious people have enslaved themselves because they are unable to cope with the reality of a meaningless universe. He or she often thinks that religion is the root of all evil and that peace on earth can only be achieved if religion is whipped off the face of the earth.

2.
I don’t know who you are, so how can I know? Your signature indicates that you are an atheists.
Somehow I have the feeling that you come from a Christian background and that it might be possible you felt suffocated by the Church in your childhood. (because you said that thinking led you away from religion) But I can only speculate. Perhaps your parents where atheists, like mine. I don’t know.

3.
Yeah, those where the good old days…

I say once more that I am not intentional disrespectful towards you.
Your atheists perspective could be right. I don’t rule out that the universe is meaningless.
I question my believes daily and try the keep an open and peaceful mind.
My “keep thinking. You will figure it out” was indeed a stupid thing to say.
Hereby my apologies for that remark.

Maybe I am totally wrong on (1.) and perhaps it is better if I ask you directly:
Do you think the universe is meaningless and if so, what makes you think so?

[Orrex]

10. I'd like to answer, if I may

1. Many atheists approach the question in a different manner from what you suggest. Your framing of the atheist viewpoint suggests a leap of non-faith where none need exist. I do not, for example, rule out "any possibility of a (higher) purpose of the Universe." I confess that I don't know what a "(higher) purpose" might be, but I will say that I've seen no evidence of it, so I can't conclude that it exists.

That's the bottom line for many atheists: in the absence of evidence for a higher power/purpose/meaning, I am unable to conclude that such exists.

I admit to holding the view that religion is responsible for a great many of the world's ills, not least of which is going on at this very moment in Lebanon. That's not to suggest that all religious people are bad, nor to suggest that fanaticism would vanish along with religion. But today's world is shaped by its history, and much of that history is steeped in conflicts between incompatible religious dogma.

2. It's a serious mistake to conclude that atheists must have had some negative church-based experience in their youth, and to suggest that this is the case is, frankly, an attempt to frame the atheist's views as reactionary and cathartic. Likewise it's an error to infer that an atheist must have grown up in an atheistic home environment.

3. I know a great many so-called Christians who pine for "the good old days," so your joke may be ill-placed. No, they don't generally want women executed for the crime of masturbation, but they certainly embrace a distinct "us vs. them" attitude about those people who have "no regard for human life" and that kind of thing. The inquisition would return in a heartbeat if given the chance, and atheists wouldn't be the ones tightening the thumbscrews.

Let us reverse the question: on what basis do you conclude that there is "meaning" in the universe apart from the "meaning" applied to it by those who choose to do so? Do you believe that "meaning" exists separate from human perception? Would "meaning" still exist if humanity did not?

[Jeroen]

12. Like you I have no evidence

Like you I have no evidence that a (higher) purpose or meaning exists. If that would be the case, I would trade my evidence for a noble prize.

All I have is circumstantial evidence – or more precise, clues.
Because my own spiritual experience is shallow, I have to rely on those who lived before me.
I refer to the many spiritual ‘leaders’ (mystics) in our history who shared with us their authentic insights and spiritual experiences. In writings, poetry, teachings and so on. Buddha’s teachings (Sutra’s- dharma) for example, or Lao Tze’s Tao, the poetry of Sufism (Rumi), the (Christian) writings of Meister Eckhart, the teachings of Krishnamurti.

Based on my own experiences and the study of others so fare, I have come to believe that life (the universe) has meaning. You may call it a choice and perhaps it is.This meaning is not a ‘practical meaning’ in a sense that some goal has to be achieved – or that the universe is heading in a certain direction according to some plan / timetable.
If you look in the eyes of a newborn child you don’t question his or her existence, you just experience a kind of joy, a feeling that is uplifting and for a short moment everything seems to make sense. You could experience a kind of connection, or wholeness. Like when you are in love with somebody. Esoteric stuff, I know.

I don’t think this ‘consciousness’ is limited to humanity. I believe humanity is just one of many expressions of life (consciousness). I think that the universe is buzzing with life, in many shapes and colours. What I find fascinating about evolution is the fact that species transform completely in order to adapt and survive. By transforming itself completely, it destroys its original self in the process. It is not the species itself (the properties and methods) that strive for survival, it is something that ‘drives the species’. Shape and matter are not important, what is important is that this matter ‘is alive and stays alive’. Consciousness’, conscious energy, God, life, I think it is all the same (more esoteric stuff) There is creation and recreation all over the place.

Okay, I am very tired, didn’t eat and had a few beers. I know it’s a lousy excuse.
In response to 2. (the conflict) I think this has more to do with land, water, power and survival then with religion. Religion is often used as an excuse to mobilize people. I hope it doesn't escalate.

On 3. I may be not be your friend, but when is comes to freedom and human rights: I am on your side.

I have to go to sleep, bye.

[trotsky]

11. Just where do you get your ideas about atheism from?

Pat Robertson? Seriously!

1. Atheism means nothing of the sort. Many atheists believe in an afterlife. Lots of them think there is a higher meaning or purpose to the universe. (Buddhists are atheists, you know.) And I'd have to say that darn near all of them feel that there is indeed plenty of meaning to life! Your caricature of an atheist is indeed a nasty person. Good thing I've never met one that fits your profile.

The "tricky part": So how do you distinguish between an atheist who merely talks about atheism and/or the shortcomings of religion, and this "fanatic" of which you speak? Where is the line drawn? Are the only nice atheists the ones who keep quiet about their opinions? Can an atheist speak up some times, but not others? What are the guidelines you think we should follow, and do you think I violated any of them in my initial response on this thread?

2. So you admit that you don't know if I am one of these "atheist fanatics," yet you clearly implied in your post that I was. For your information, although I was raised in religion, I never felt "suffocated" by the church I grew up in. That's another common misconception - that most atheists must have rejected religion because they endured some horrible fundamentalist sect in childhood. Many have, but certainly not all. I grew up in the fairly liberal ELCA. I just never felt comfortable with their answers to questions. I wanted to know more, and no one could tell me.

3. I'll ditto Orrex's remarks on that one.

---

You may not have intended to be disrespectful, but your prejudices regarding atheism are. Stick around here and maybe you'll learn a thing or two about what atheism really is. I appreciate your apology and to show my appreciation will tell you my answer to your final question. No, I do not think the universe is meaningless. I think the universe has as many meanings as there are sentient lifeforms - because each of us creates our own meaning. What atheism means to me is that our lives are not set up for us on some cosmic stage where someone is grading our performance, or setting us against each other to see who is truly loyal. Our lives are ours alone, which gives them (IMHO) the greatest meaning of all.

[Jeroen]

13. Before I go to sleep...

I am real tired right now (and had a few beers) but I would like to thank you for your reply before I go to sleep. I appreciate your insights, I really do.