I know I'm not god, but........

[Evoman]

There is a lot of things about religion that amazes me, but the biggest has got to be how we take crap from god that we don't from other people. In another thread, I made a couple of posts and I wanted to share them here in a different thread. Now, I DO NOT mean this post as a "calling out" to other DUers who responded to my post. Some people have personally IM'ed me and asked me to post it to start a discussion. With that disclaimer aside, I'm going to present another chapter of my play...and I want to discuss why, to those who believe in god (and if you don't, feel free to post anyways), is it okay for god to do things we would consider immoral.

Heres the first part.

*START SCENE*

Evoman: *to his 12 year old cousin* Hi Chantel. I'm glad your housesitting for me while I'm away at a conference

Chantel: Sure thing, Evoman.

Evoman: Now, you can go everywhere in the house except that third closet in the hallway. YOU MUST NOT GO IN THERE.

Chantel: Um..okay.

Evoman: Here, I'll give you the keys to that closet. BUT YOU MUST NEVER GO IN THERE.

Chantel: Uh...sure.

Evoman. The key goes in upside down. And that closet is full of knowledge. YOU MUST NEVER GO IN THERE.

Chantel: sure sure

Evoman: Okay *leaves*

*knock on the door*

Snakeman: Hey, whats up chantel baby.

Chantel: Oh nothing snakeman. Just watching my cousins house.

Snakeman: Whats that key for.

Chantel: A closet. My uncle doesn't want us to go there.

Snakeman: Sure he does. Why would he give you the key if he didn't want you to go in there. It was probably a joke

Chantel: You think? Okay. Lets go open the closet

Chantel *opens closet* OH MY GOD. THIS CLOSET IS FULL OF PORN. EWWWW.

EvomanL *comes in* Oh chantel...I forgot to tel....WHAT THE HELL!!!!

Chantel: GROSS

Evoman: YOU DISOBEYED ME. For doing that, I'm going to inject you with Aids. Then I'm going to throw you out in the streets so you'll get raped and beaten. Then I'm going to make sure all of your kids, if they survive the aids, will be suffer for this. They build a house, I'll knock it down. SUFFER

Chantel: Really *sniff*....why..

Evoman: No, I'm just kidding. What, you think I'm god! HAHAHA

Chantel: HAHAHA

Snakeman: HAHAHAH *look at audience and winks*

END OF SCENE


After this post, I was chided that my play didn't present god appropriately. That in order to correspond with scripture, the Evoman character forgives Chantel and then punishes himself for her sins. I love criticism (and would love it in this thread as well..hehe). This is how I responded:

But what you don't know is that Chantel does not ask for forgiveness because she feels that her cousin Evoman is a disgusting pervert. Evoman desperately tries to tell her its in her best interest to apologize, because if she does he will give her a lolly. He even offers to beat up his innocent little toddler Jakey and put a skewer through him so that she can get off the hook. She is horrified by that and refuses to apologize. So evoman is forced to throw a pot of boiling oil on her. He can't help it...he tried to help her but she refused his mercy.

So what do you think. If morality does come from god, aren't we moral if we kill, give people sicknesses, etc. Why or why not?

[Zebedeo]

1. Another change you have to make

is you have to make it so that Evoman created Chantel out of clay and breathed life into her, and that Evoman created the world and indeed the entire universe in which Chantel lives.

God is not just an uncle. He is the Supreme Being and we are His creation. I think this relationship is not adequately addressed in your play.

[Evoman]

2. Okay

So if he created her out of clay and created the world, and she was still a willfull little beyatch after Evoman threatened to skewer Jakey for her sake, then it would be okay if he threw a boiling pot of oil on her?

[Zebedeo]

3. If you made a clay pot

wouldn't you have the right to destroy it?

[trotsky]

5. Not if that clay pot had a "soul", no.

You're scaring me again, Zeb. God can kill anyone he wants, any time he wants, for no other reason than because he created us and we are therefore his "property"?

[Goblinmonger]

7. I think

Zeb is sounding down right like a Calvinist. "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" and all that.

[NMMNG]

15. Indeed

I can't help but wonder why anybody chooses to worship that sadistic, capricious SOB.

[Zebedeo]

9. Yes

Of course. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Haven't you heard that?

How about this one: "Ashes to ashes, dust to dust."

Or this one: "for dust you are and to dust you will return"

[Evoman]

12. Pots....poor pots

Yeah, but if I destroy my clay pot I'm just getting rid of it. God doesnt do that. God makes a burn if a fiery hell...ya know, with gnashing of teeth and stuff like that. I would never make my inanimate clay pot suffer like that. If the clay pot loses water or can't function like I want it to, I may destroy it. I may even get mad. But I made it...its not the pots fault it was made shitty. Its mine.


Poor clay pots.

[Zebedeo]

13. God doesn't make things "shitty"

If we choose to act "shitty" that's no fault of God's.

[Evoman]

17. Well

Why would god toss a perfectly good pot in a lake of fire. I mean, even if the pot I made had flaws, if I loved it anyways, I wouldnt destroy it or burn it to pieces.

So yes, if I had a pot I would have the right to destroy it. But if I professed to loving my pot, why would I destroy it even if it had some flaws, let alone torture it in a lake of fire.

Evoman

[Zebedeo]

23. What if the pot was animate

and rebelled against you, breaking all your rules, and rejected your authority over it?

[Evoman]

27. ........

Um..no. Still no burning lake of fire with gnashing of teeth. Not even a bad pot deserves that.

[LouisianaLiberal]

62. This metaphor reminded me of this:

LXXXII
As under cover of departing Day
Slunk hunger-stricken Ramazan away,
Once more within the Potter's house alone
I stood, surrounded by the Shapes of Clay.


LXXXIII
Shapes of all Sorts and Sizes, great and small,
That stood along the floor and by the wall;
And some loquacious Vessels were; and some
Listen'd perhaps, but never talk'd at all.


LXXXIV
Said one among them--"Surely not in vain
My substance of the common Earth was ta'en
And to this Figure moulded, to be broke,
Or trampled back to shapeless Earth again."


LXXXV
Then said a Second--"Ne'er a peevish Boy
Would break the Bowl from which he drank in joy,
And He that with his hand the Vessel made
Will surely not in after Wrath destroy."


LXXXVI
After a momentary silence spake
Some Vessel of a more ungainly Make;
"They sneer at me for leaning all awry:
What! did the Hand then of the Potter shake?"


LXXXVII
Whereat some one of the loquacious Lot--
I think a Sufi pipkin-waxing hot--
"All this of Pot and Potter--Tell me then,
Who is the Potter, pray, and who the Pot?"


LXXXVIII
"Why," said another, "Some there are who tell
Of one who threatens he will toss to Hell
The luckless Pots he marr'd in making--Pish!
He's a Good Fellow, and 'twill all be well."

(If you could stretch that scene into an entire play I would love to read it)

[trotsky]

18. That is a horrible, horrible way to view a god.

Human lives are nothing to your god. We're his playthings, much like you might have played with ants and a magnifying glass as a kid.

I am more moral than your god.

[Zebedeo]

22. No, no and no

"Human lives are nothing to your god." Not so. God so loved the world that He gave His only Son - or haven't you heard?

"We're his playthings." No. We are His creatures.

"you might have played with ants and a magnifying glass as a kid." Yes and no. I played with a magnifying glass and burned holes in some leaves. I did not play with ants. I did get bitten by some fire ants while playing, though.

"I am more moral than your god." Nonsense. That is not even theoretically possible, since morality is defined as God's will. Your statement, if serious, is the height of arrogance. My suspicion is that your statement is not serious, but simply meant to be provocative.

[Evoman]

26. *double sigh*

God loves us, and still would allow them to burn in a lake of fire for eternity. Seriously, I am going to be tortured for the rest of my existence but god loves me. DOES NOT COMPUTE.

God created us out of clay. We do not look like clay. We are not made of clay. What reason would anyone think that a person would be made out of clay. I mean, even before science and atomic theory told us that we are not even really made like clay, I would think it would be evident that we are in fact, not made out of clay. We are not the color of clay. We do not have the consistency of clay. In fact, I'm pretty damn sure I don't smell like clay. We are made of organic molecules, not clay. So god made us out of clay and then blew "life into us". So did he blow DNA and phospholipids into the clay? Why didn't he just build us out of phospholipids, proteins, and dna in the first place and forget about the clay altogether. Or did he arrange the clay in the shape of DNA. That breath must put nitrogen and sulfur into the clay as well, cuz clay doesnt naturally have phosphorous or nitrogen or sulphur in it. Why weren't we made of gas instead? Oh wait, that would require dinosaurs and those never existed.

Why didnt he make us out of DNA and phospholipids and proteins? Could it be because the ignorant tribals who wrote the bible didn't know what those things were. They sure knew what clay was.

Seriously! Made out of clay!...how can people in this day and age actually believe that.

[Zebedeo]

36. You think that's beyond God's capability?

to form man out of clay? Look at the universe, in all its grandeur and magnificence. All of it - every bit of it, down to the tiniest subatomic particles, was created by God with just a thought.

[trotsky]

29. "Morality is defined as God's will"??

Sorry, Zeb. You're wrong. That's YOUR definition, but it's not the one for the English language.

moral
1 a : of or relating to principles of right and wrong in behavior : ETHICAL <moral judgments> b : expressing or teaching a conception of right behavior <a moral poem> c : conforming to a standard of right behavior d : sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment <a moral obligation> e : capable of right and wrong action <a moral agent>
2 : probable though not proved : VIRTUAL <a moral certainty>
3 : having the effects of such on the mind, confidence, or will <a moral victory> <moral support>

And based on that definition, I am more moral than the god you assert exists. Deal with it.

[Zebedeo]

34. Your definition is entirely circular

"right" and "wrong" is just another way of saying "good" and "evil."

When you say you are more "moral" than God, the only one of your dictionary definitions that you could be using is definition (c) "conforming to a standard of right behavior."

Your definition of "moral" just leads to the question of how do you define "right"?

[beam me up scottie]

35. It's not "his" definition. Try reading the post.

Please continue.

I'd love to hear more justification of your god's cruel and murderous actions while you lecture us on morality.

[varkam]

39. Well if you assert that God is the arbiter of right and wrong....

then it's no longer significant to say that God is good. God could have just as easily said that murdering and stealing is good. So if God did say that those things were good, would they be so? If God commanded you to walk into the local MickeyDees and gun down 20 strangers, would it be the right thing to do?

Sure, you can say that "Well God would never tell me to do such a thing!" But, apparently, he tells people to do very similar things all the time. And before you say that they're crazy...how do you know? Maybe God *does* talk to them!

But that's beside the point - which is this: it doesn't matter if God would actually say that. What does matter is the conditional, the "if / then" statement. If God says cold-blooded murder of innocent children is good, then the cold-blooded murder of innocent children is good.

Sounds like a pretty arbitrary morality to me.

But, if you go the other way and says God commands these moral truths because they are already true, then there is a morality independent of God and it would, hence, be entirely possible for a mortal to be as or more moral that God himself.

[Zebedeo]

42. You must be thinking of some other idea of "God."

The God you describe is not who I worship. My God commands: "Thou shalt not murder." Now you have proposed: "What if God told you to murder?" Well, you are proposing a hypothetical "God" that is not the God of the Bible whom I worship. If some being who purported to be "God" told me to murder, I would know that the being was not God, but was probably a demon or Satan himself trying to trick me. Don't you know that Satan is the Father of Lies?

[varkam]

50. Are you saying I'm Satan?

Curses! Foiled again! Damn you Zebedeo - I will have your soul!

Well...okay. What if God told you to kill? I mean, killing is certainly not murder. That's how a lot of the religious right gets around things like supporting wars - we're not murdering them, we're just killing them! Besides, how would you know if it was Satan trying to trick you? I'm sure the real Satan is probably a lot more intelligent than I am (I am, after all, just an understudy).

Anyway, as I said in my post, it's not whether or not God would actually command you to do so, it's the conditional statement that is of primary importance here. The conditional statement makes morality into an arbitrary business. If God told someone else to kill, who are you to say that God didn't say that? Do you talk to him? Does he commiserate with you about how bad the day at the office was?

[Zebedeo]

54. In the original Hebrew, the commandment is

You shall not murder. The Hebrew word is ratsach, which refers to intentional killing without justification. The word nakah (to kill) is not used here.

If God told me to kill, I would know that the killing was justified, because God has prohibited murder.

Do I talk to God? You bet. Every day. Does He reply? Yes. Sometimes it is through Scripture, sometimes through prayer, sometimes through signs and wonders.

Go ahead and ridicule that if you like. It's the truth.

[beam me up scottie]

55. Nice. Your killing is justified as long as your god says it is.

Good thing I don't believe in killing anything, regardless of who tells me it's justified.

But I'm a free thinker like that.

[Zebedeo]

57. You just killed a million microbes

by washing your hands. Oops. ;)

[beam me up scottie]

58. Right, 'cuz washing my hands is similar to killing people for god.

:eyes:

Gotta love that fundamentalist world view.

I used to wonder how people fell for the whole "Kill a Commie For Christ" mentality.

Unfortunately, I don't have to wonder anymore.

[varkam]

59. Fun with semantics!

So both end in the taking of a human life...but if you call it one thing as opposed to the other, it's okay! God says it's cool.

And by talk to God I don't mean "Wow that's a pretty sunset, God must be talking to me". I mean something like this:

You: "Hey God, what's up?"
God: "Not much Zebedeo, how're you doing?"

[Zhade]

60. Get help.

Seriously. My grandmother says god talks to her, and now she's in a home (she's schizophrenic).

I'm not mocking you. You really need to seek therapy if you're hearing voices.

[trotsky]

41. Pot, meet kettle.

"Moral is what god wants. And god wants what is moral."

Now what's that old saying about people who live in glass houses?

I define "right" basically how my society does. "Right" is an action that helps, or at least doesn't harm. My definition of "right" depends on every situation - there is no moral precept that could ever be universal.

For instance, "Killing is wrong."

Well, it's obviously not always, because not only does your bible have examples of horrible murder ordered and/or sanctioned by your god, there are the cases of self-defense, war, etc.

It's hilarious because while you claim to have this objective moral standard, you are actually determining what is right or wrong using the same processes that you bash others for using. Your own mind.

[WritingIsMyReligion]

31. And a creature is any better than a plaything......how, again?

:shrug:

[Goblinmonger]

20. Wait a minute! Stop the bus!

For the longest time you have been talking about the god of love. The god that sees us as his special beings. More special than the angels even.

Now, the metaphor you give is that he is a potter and we are his pots. And not only that, he is the type of potter that will just destroy his pots at will...on a whim.

Which is it. Are we god's special creatures or are we ceramic knick-knacks to be shattered at will without a second thought?

[Zebedeo]

24. We are special creatures

But we are also formed from dust.

God does not destroy souls "on a whim." Where are you coming up with that?

On the contrary, He has gone through great pains (no pun intended) to ensure that each of us has the opportunity to exercise the choice to receive eternal life. It is only if we reject His plan that we are on our own.

[Goblinmonger]

32. But not special enough to protect?

You seem to indicate we are more than on our own.

Post #3

wouldn't you have the right to destroy it?

That isn't just "you didn't do what I wanted" that is "you did something I didn't want and YOU WILL PAY."

Post #9

The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.

Again, not just on our own. God is actively taking something away from us. And given the context of your post, God will do that for no apparent reason than that he can.

Post #23--You were asked if you would destroy a pot even if you professed to love it.

What if the pot was animate and rebelled against you, breaking all your rules, and rejected your authority over it?

That seems to be your reasoning for why god should destroy us. Again, we aren't just on our own for denying him, he will get us.

You seem to have some consistency problems. Or, what I think the case is, you say what you really believe and when people point out how shitty those beliefs are, you start backpedeling.

[moobu2]

38. That isn’t true.

You said..

He has gone through great pains (no pun intended) to ensure that each of us has the opportunity to exercise the choice to receive eternal life. It is only if we reject His plan that we are on our own.

Millions of babies are born every year, without the parts of the brain that would allow them to make mature decisions to varying degrees. Some are so damaged that they will never even be able to dress themselves, much less “exercise the choice to receive eternal life”, or have the capability to reject it. So, even if there was some invisible force magically creating people, that invisible force isn’t creating everyone with equal abilities.

[varkam]

40. I think they just get punished a little bit...

You know, like purgatory or something. Or maybe they just stay in hell until Jesus comes back. I mean, it is their fault after all - they should have tried harder to grow that part of the brain!

:sarcasm:

[Zebedeo]

43. God creates people in endless variety

We are not all the same, that is true. Some are weak, some are strong, some tall, some short, some healthy, some unhealthy. If there were no such thing as a disability, and everyone were born with the exact same characteristics, what would the world be like? For one thing, we would not have the opportunity to be compassionate toward those needing our help.

Children, or those people who have the mind of a child, are precious in God's eyes. So precious that they are guaranteed salvation, and are welcomed into God's Heaven for all eternity.

Jesus said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these." Matthew 19:14

[Evoman]

44. Un huh

What about mentally retarded people. God does not make them a guarantee in the bible. What about normal people who have an accident involving brain damage? What about people in coma's who sinned right before the coma, but now can't pray for forgiveness? Is Terri Shiavo burning in hell as we speak? Hell, she had anorexia didn't she? She tried to kill herself right? Now shes screaming in hell as the lava burns her lungs. What about the kid whos been abused since he was a child, and has grown up with nothing but hate for the world? Is he forgiven automatically? How about the kid who has been sexually abused by his priest or reverend and has grown up with hate for the church? Burning in hell? How about those jews killed in the concentration camps? They didn't accept christ as their lord and saviour....now their afterlife is worse than their life on earth. How about all the South American Indians who died by small pox or were skewered on the end of halberds by the Spaniards before they could accept Christ and God....haha...they're also burning in hell as we speak.

But god LOVED ALL OF THEM AND HE WOULD HAVE FORGIVEN THEM IF THEY HAD JUST ACCEPTED HIS LOVE AND ACCEPTED THE SACRAFICE OF JESUS, HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON.

Whatever man.

Evoman

[Zebedeo]

45. Good questions

What about mentally retarded people. God does not make them a guarantee in the bible. What about normal people who have an accident involving brain damage?

I think those fall into the "little children" category that Jesus spoke about. Jesus specifically talked about how people must receive the kingdom of God "like a little child."

"But Jesus called the children to him and said, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. I tell you the truth, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it." Luke 18:16

What about people in coma's who sinned right before the coma, but now can't pray for forgiveness?

I would say it depends. Had they accepted Christ prior to sinning and then immediately falling into the coma? If so, they are guaranteed salvation, because the blood of Christ has already paid the price for their sins. The fact that any of us can die at any moment (or become comatose at any moment) is a strong reason not to wait too long before accepting Christ. None of us is guaranteed a single extra day of life on Earth.

Is Terri Shiavo burning in hell as we speak?

How can I answer that question? I don't know if she accepted Christ. That is something we can never know, because it is a communication between the individual person and God.

What about the kid whos been abused since he was a child, and has grown up with nothing but hate for the world? Is he forgiven automatically?

Not if he is no longer a child or having the mind of a child. Then he would need to accept Jesus' sacrifice by the grace of God to pay for his sins.

How about those jews killed in the concentration camps? They didn't accept christ as their lord and saviour....now their afterlife is worse than their life on earth. How about all the South American Indians who died by small pox or were skewered on the end of halberds by the Spaniards before they could accept Christ and God....haha...they're also burning in hell as we speak.

Again, who am I to say where those souls are? It is not for me to say. That is a matter between God and those people. Some people believe that a soul can be saved even after death. They point to stories like this one. Others believe that one must accept Christ during this life, and that there are no second chances after death. Better to be on the safe side, I would say.

[Evoman]

46. And which would you prefer?

Since mentally handicapped people were believed to be controlled by demons back in Jesus's time, I doubt if he meant them when he was talking about children. Anyhow..

Would you prefer that god let those souls convert after death? Would you prefer that God gives those souls a chance? Does it seem fair to you, as a human being, that those people suffer great pain in life should suffer afterwards? Doesn't it seem understandable that a person whose suffered their entire life may reject a belief in god?

I mean, we all know life isn't fair. Some people are happier, some people are sold in sexual slavery as children. Some get brain cancer, some don't. The fact that life isn't fair makes sense to someone like me who has no belief in a god. But don't you think god should be fair? Don't you think every person on the world should have an equal chance to go to heaven?

I know what your going to say. God is fair. God gives everyone a chance to accept Jesus. But is that really true? Isn't it easy for a whitebread, rich person who has never suffered a day in their life, who was born to christian parents, and attended church since he was a child...isn't it easier for that person to accept Jesus then a bushman from Africa who has never had any exposure to god? How about a person who was sodomized by priests who proffessed love for a compassionate christ while they were doing it? How about Native americans living in third world conditions? These people may very well be cursed to spend the rest of eternity being tortured by demons in hell because they never even had a CHANCE of believing in god.

Life may not be fair....but shouldn't god be?

[Zebedeo]

47. I would prefer that every soul be given every chance

But I am not so arrogant as to try to usurp God's authority in this matter. (and I am not saying you are, either). Basically, it is between God and each individual.

I agree with you that it is easier for someone raised Christian to accept Jesus, than for the Bushman to do so. That's why tens of thousands of Christians have gone, and continue to go, to the far reaches of the Earth to evangelize to people who may never have heard the Good News of Jesus Christ. Those Christian missionaries literally put their lives on the line, and often sacrifice their lives, in order to bring the Word of God to those who have not had an opportunity to hear it.

And yes, I have prayed for all of the Jews who died in the Holocaust, and for other non-Christians who have passed away. I have asked in Jesus' name that God grant them forgiveness of sin. That is what I hope and pray - that they can receive salvation, even after death. But ultimately, it is up to God to decide such things. He is the One who has the authority. His plan is just; that I know with all my heart.

[Evoman]

48. Missionaries are useless

Look, let me put it to you this way. If a group of Bushmen came to your house and started bugging you to accept Grandpa Mantis, the preying mantis god, in order for you to be saved, would you do it? Of course not. Why would you? Shouldnt god, the intelligent being he is, realize that? You can tell almost immediatly from birth what religion a person is going to be when he dies. What possible reason would those people accept Jesus for?

Again, God is not very smart if he doesn't know that people don't change their mind easier. In fact, thats a trait almost all people have. And if god is going to be fair, why doesn't he go to the bushmen and GIVE them ten commandments like he did moses instead of this missionary crap that probably not going to work.

Evoman

[Zebedeo]

49. Factually, you are dead wrong.

In fact, it is hard to imagine how you could be more wrong. (Not trying to be insulting, but just astonished at how conterfactual your post is) Missionaries have converted billions of people to Christianity. Look at Latin America, just as one example.

As for mantis-worship, no that doesn't tend to go over so well. People don't accept it, because it's bogus.

Why doesn't God give the Bushmen the 10 Commandments? Because salvation is through Christ, and God gave Christians a Great Commission to spread the Good News to all nations. That's His plan.

[Evoman]

51. Kind, warm hearted missionaries.

Latin America wasn't converted by kind, heart-warming christian missionaries. It was bloody subjugation at a level never seen before and hopefully never seen again. If a group of christians annihilates the current population with halberds and smallpox, then yeah, the likely result is the surviving population will be christian.

And who are you to call someones elses religion bogus? Thats my point! To you, everyone elses religion is bogus. Why not the other way around. How do you know your religion isn't bogus? It basically contradicts every experience I've had in life and everything I've ever studied. Last time I checked, people aren't made of clay, the spaceships haven't seen heaven or the care bears, and natural disasters are explained perfectly by climatologists and metereologists.

And thats my last point. We have to actually BELIEVE in christ to be saved. Not FAKE BELIEVE, but really believe. There is absolutely no way for me to be saved. Because I could NEVER believe. Nobody can ever force themselves to believe anything. Belief is NOT A CHOICE. Christians think that someone can just choose to believe. It does not work that way. I don't choose to believe that the moon exists. I believe it because I see it. In the same vein, I could not refuse to believe in the moon. If I asked you to stop believing that you have a mom and dad, you would tell me, "Evoman, how the fuck am I supposed to do that". If I asked you to believe both your parents are african american, you would tell me the same thing.

NOW, I could CHOOSE to give christ lip service. I could CHOOSE to go to church. I could CHOOSE to read the bible, not kill anyone, honour my mother and father. I could choose to say "I believe in the father and I believe he sent his only begotten son to save us and that he died for our sins". But I could no more choose to actually BELIEVE it than you could choose NOT TO BELIEVE IT. And god would know if I REALLY believed, wouldn't he?

I've been to church, I have prayed. I have read the entire bible. I STILL DONT BELIEVE AND I CANNOT CHOOSE TO BELIEVE. So I'm on a one way trip to hell.

Well, no not really. I have no belief in hell.

Evoman

[Zebedeo]

52. You are right that conversion should be by revealing the Word,

not by violence.

You are also right that belief must be genuine and not mere pretense. It must come from the heart. I am sorry that has not yet happened for you. For me, it took some 40 years before it happened.

One thing I learned is that in order to have the seed of faith take root in your heart, you must first soften your heart. The seed does not penetrate a hard heart. However, through my own experience, I learned that the seed can lie dormant for decades, and once one makes a choice to soften their heart and read Scripture prayerfully and earnestly and humbly, instead of skeptically and pridefully, the seed will take root, and the Holy Spirit will lead the person to the Truth.

BTW, how the heck did you know that my parents aren't African-American?

[Evoman]

53. Lol..just a guess based on my experience

But again, I bring up my point. You softened your "soil". Now, what would have happened if you friend had been trying to plant a muslim seed. What if you lived in Iran and your friend had planted that seed? There no more truth in christianity than Islam. Or even the Bushmen religion. You probably just picked christianity because you had more exposure to it. A person growing up in Iran has almost no chance to be courted by Christians like you did. Therefore, It is not fair that he end up in hell.

Your also assuming I've never softened my soil. But I have. And I'm not hardened right now...its not a conscious decision. I just listen to christians jibber and jabber and I realize that the whole thing is nonsense. I listen to Moslems (I have two very good moslem friends)...again, nonsense. Msde out of clay, flying horses, big ships, a god who loves you but will put you in hell....its all bullshit.

[beam me up scottie]

56. "Because I could NEVER believe"

THANK YOU.

Something I've been trying to tell people in this forum for ages.

Luckily, most of them get it, although a few need to believe we reject their gods because their faith is too fragile to conceive of or accept non-belief.

[Evoman]

6. Well...

If I made a child with my sperm, wouldn't I have a right to destroy it? Its not clay, but I still made it. If me and my girlfriend decided we didn't like how our child turned out, since we made it, I should be able to destroy it.

But then, your going to say god created that child, not me. So if I made a pot, and god CREATED that pot through me, could I still break it and be justified?

I guess it makes sense though. God can throw us into pit of fire (not to destroy us mind you, but to torture us for the rest of our existence) but I can't throw a pot of oil at my bitchy cousin. Figures.

[Zebedeo]

10. Does a dog "create" a puppy?

No.

Neither do we "create" children.

[beam me up scottie]

11. Yes. Although it takes two of them.

Biology wasn't your best subject, was it?

[Zebedeo]

14. Then dogs must be pretty smart

to create living, breathing animals. Dogs can't even talk, and you think they are "creating" other dogs.

How about roaches? Do they "create" little baby roaches?

[Evoman]

16. *sigh*

Since when do you have to be "smart" to create anything. Two dogs fuck, egg and sperm combine. Dog eats, cells divide. There is no need for god. Oxygen mixes with iron, you get rust "created". Nothing intelligent creates rust. The oxygen isn't trying to corrupt the iron. There is no intellegence there. For the past 200 years, we haven't NEEDED god to explain almost anything. Whenever god has been used to explain something, its ALWAYS been wrong. Lighting? Nope not caused by an angry Zeus. Meteology tells us thats bullshit. Demons causing sickness? Nope, germ theory of microbiology does a better job. Diversity we see, the fossils, similarities in embryology, biochemical similarities caused by a god? Nope, evolution.

Believe in god if you want to. Science can never prove or disprove god. Science does not even try. Science can not do that. But to ignore the fact that two dogs fucking creates a third dog. Thats stupid. Why do dogs even fuck? Why doesn't god just randomly put dogs on the planet. Why doesn't god make more virgin, birth-giving dog. Hell, why even give birth. How come new dogs don't just descend from heaven?

*shakes head* We gotta do something about education. In Europe, they would laugh at you about this shit.

[Zebedeo]

21. You and I are using different definitions of "to create"

or so it appears.

Here is the definition of create:

cre·ate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kr-t)
tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates
1. To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.
2. To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.
3. To invest with an office or title; appoint.
4. To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company

It appears that I am using definition number 4 and you are using definition number 2.

[Evoman]

25. Defintions

definition 1 and 2 are the ones I'm using. Again, creation does not require intelligence. Besides, puppies are not created from thin air.

[beam me up scottie]

33. ROFLMAO!!!

He believes that girl doggies are virgins too!!!

Aw, don't tell him, it's kind of cute.

And by cute, I mean ignorant.

[beam me up scottie]

37. No, dogs don't create baby roaches, silly. Mommy and Daddy roaches do.

You really should think about a refresher course in biology.

Thinking that a deity creates offspring is as ridiculous as thinking the stork brings them.

Oops.

Did I ruin that for you too?

[Goblinmonger]

4. Oh. Their. God.

I love your plays. LOVE THEM. I especially liked this little hypothetical, too.

Keep it up, my man.

[beam me up scottie]

8. SUFFER

:spray:

You kill me!

:rofl:

[Goblinmonger]

19. My thought in the shower this morning.

Yeah, that's right, I was thinking about your play in the shower. Gotta problem with that?

Your scene reminded me of the part in 1941 when the military guy told Ackroyd what "not to do" with the anti-aircraft gun they parked in his driveway. "And whatever you do, don't load an ammunition shell into the chamber like this..."

[Evoman]

28. Funny movie

That was hilarious. Maybe akroyd movies is where I get my inspiration. Akroyd is my muse *grin*....watch out broadway!

[Goblinmonger]

30. Every time I see that scene now

I will be thinking of the garden of eden. Whole new insight.

[mzteris]

61. this reminds me of the old

Bluebeard horror story we used to tell each other as kids.......