Is the Pope right about love and lust?

[emad]

The Pope is to publish his first encyclical, which will warn believers of the danger of confusing sex with love.

A Vatican source said the Pope does not have a totally negative view of erotic love but it must be balanced with the spiritual or divine love found in the teachings of Christ.

In explaining his views on love and sex in the encyclical, the Pope quotes from biblical writings, encyclicals written by his predecessors and the works of philosophers such as the 17th century French thinker René Descartes.

Reports of the publication was accompanied by news that the Vatican will retain copyright on this and future papal publications and will charge others to publish them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?view=BLOGDETAIL&grid=P30&blog=yourview&xml=/news/2006/01/18/blview18.xml&sSheet=/portal/2006/01/18/ixportaltop.html

[phantom power]

1. there's that old saw...

about the mystery of why millions of people seek advice about love, sex, etc, from a caste of celibate men.

[liberal N proud]

8. That has always amazed me.

You must meet with a priest to discuss marital relations before they will marry you.
All from a man who never entered into a relationship.

[htuttle]

2. What the hell would the pope know about love and lust?

:rofl:

[movonne]

7. You might be surprised....

[MADem]

13. He couldn't ever admit to any details, that's for sure!

Maybe he spent too many summers on the beach reading Sidney Sheldon or Danielle Steele....

[Inland]

27. And how come Dr. Phil gives weight loss advice? nt

[bliss_eternal]

29. Because he's a greedy, self-serving,

guy--that's why.

[Inland]

37. But he's, er, a full figured guy.

What next, hair grooming tips?

[bliss_eternal]

39. LOL! You think?

...or maybe how NOT to stick your nose into everyone's business and give them worthless advice while NOT making them feel inferior?

;)

[bliss_eternal]

3. While the distinction of love and lust is an important one

to consider, I'm not about to start taking relationship advice from a man that has never had a sexual relationship.

But that's just my personal bias about the catholic priesthood. I find episcopal priests a tad more balanced, because at least they can marry and have relationships (I think--haven't checked on this lately--if I'm wrong forgive me...haven't slept much).

So after he has sex within the confines of a committed relationship--we can talk. Until then--blah, blah, blah, whatever.

Excuse my cynicism I'm still rather bitter that the pope aided in the protection of sick priests that hurt children. Again, not one anyone should be taking a lot of advice from. :eyes:

[Sal Minella]

21. What, you think advising people that condoms don't prevent AIDS is

bad advice or something? You think sodomizing little boys isn't adequate preparation for advising fecund couples on limiting family size?

The "Catholic Family Planning Method" is apparently making the rounds again. I used that method and had three babies in less than four years, all baptized in the Catholic Church. No wonder Holy Mother Church approves that method.

[bliss_eternal]

28. LOL! Catholic Family Planning--

When we went to our 'marriage encounter class' they passed out those retarded booklets. It was all my future husband and I could do to NOT laugh aloud when they started to discuss it.

The couples they have there to talk about it, even get all holy and serene when they start the discussion. The couples bring out all their framed pictures of their families and set them up on the table behind them. So I was already thinking, "um...the method obviously doesn't work!" Anyway, then they start talking about 'what an effective method' it is. How they were able to go an entire year before being 'blessed' with children! LOL! Another couple actually was married several years, and still didn't have kids. Personally, I think they were utilizing something else, and just didn't want to appear heathens. LOL! But during the entire presentation, the priest stood there looking so satisfied. Such a crock.

[Sal Minella]

30. I knew a Catholic couple who had only one child and finally just

ASKED her how they did it. "You only have intercourse when you want to have a baby," she said placidly. You guys just never have sex? I said incredulously. She looked shocked. Oh, we fool around, she said, but we won't have intercourse again until we want another baby.

What I finally figured out, after more oblique questioning, is that if he's wearing a condom, it's "fooling around," but when they fool around without a condom, it's intercourse. And she was a happy practicing Catholic, in her own mind.

I'm not making this up. I couldn't make this up.

[bliss_eternal]

31. I know you aren't making it up--

unfortunately. LOL! Catholicism seems to breed very 'different' ideas about sex and sexuality. I've also seen some interesting ideas about children--at least ideas that made me uncomfortable. My husband grew up in a very small community, very catholic. His former friends are SO like this.

One one of his former friends had four kids they could barely afford, because of doing it 'the Catholic way.' She finally decided to get tubal ligation because she had them all in such close succession. Oh, and get this--on top of all the kids, she was trying to HOMESCHOOL them, too! :wow: She gave up on homeschooling and sent them back to school after the fourth came along. Too stressful she said.

Another former friend of his, totally creeped me out--well the wife at least. They had two kids--again, barely getting by with the two they had. Anyway, one day she tells us they are working on having another. This after they were complaining about how hard of a time they were having financially. So we were kind of confused by their sudden desire to have more.

Her mom was sick--she was frustrated by the lack of support by her sibling. So she decided they should have more children so that and I quote,"...if something ever happened to her--there are more children to help her husband with her."

Yeah--good reason to have a kid, so there's more there to care for you when you're older and MIGHT get sick. :sarcasm: :eyes:

I hate to say it, but in many ways religion seems to breed weirdness...

[Goblinmonger]

23. I think the pope is an asshat, but...

That is a big assumption to make that the pope (or any priest for that matter) has NEVER had sex. Certainly he should not CURRENTLY be having sex, but the vow of celibacy only occurs when they are ordained, not at birth. I was in a Catholic high school seminary, and had I become a priest, I would have been a priest that had sex. Three of my classmates (out of a grand total of 15) are priests and I know for a fact that one has had sex multiple times in his life. The other two are gay and I do know know about their sex lives.

Again,
pope = asshat
me = no longer a catholic
assuming a priest has NEVER had sex = big assumption

Carry on.

[bliss_eternal]

25. On edit--I thought it was implied that I meant

he, the pope is not actively in a sexual relationship. If he hasn't been sexually active on a long term basis... well again, my thoughts are on the record.

Having sex prior to being a priest, is hardly the same thing as a guy who has been doing it and working on relationship issues his entire life. Not open to advice on sex or relationships from this guy for this reason. Sorry, and sorry that wasn't clear.

Oh and the asshat thing...I agree. LOL! :hi:

[Goblinmonger]

32. I'm not trying to be a catholic apologist

by any means. I was just reacting to the word "never." I understand wholly what you mean, just wanted to make sure the rest of the world reading this understands that there are catholic priests out there that have been in a sexual relationship that resembles normal.

I bailed out on the catholic church long ago (during my agnostic days--now that I am atheist, I fear there may be no going back :)). So much is wrong with that organziation, and, sadly, it is not going to change. Ever.

[bliss_eternal]

33. LOL--I think I understand--

it's totally ok.

I was raised with catholicism and christianity (two different sides of the family). So I always attended both types of church. As a kid, I liked catholic church more, quite simply because you weren't in services long. lol. Whereas christian churches seemed bound and determined to keep one there ALL DAY LONG.

As an adult, I was VERY disturbed by all I learned about the catholic church. We were married in the church but since have both been turned off by many aspects of religion--particularly the decision by many to speak about * vs. kerry in '04. We used to attend a church that seemed to go out of it's way to praise shrub, we bailed from there long before the election and haven't been back to ANY church--christian or catholic since.

I agree, the church is really messed up and isn't going to change ever.

[Strong Atheist]

4. "Reports of the publication was accompanied"

by news that the Vatican will retain copyright on this and future papal publications and will charge others to publish them."

Hurt me more.

:rofl:

[forintegrity]

5. He obviously can't quote from his own experience!

I find it interesting that they will charge to publish. Things must be getting financially tight for the Church with all the scandal the past few years. Contributions are down cuz people have left PLUS the economy is bad (despite what GWB says...that's our reality).

[bliss_eternal]

6. Nothing related to catholicism

will get a dime of my money until all of those priests that hurt children are brought to justice. Until then, they can go broke for all I care.

[forintegrity]

12. I agree!!!

[emad]

9. Another "revealed" bit of papal humbug. Last week UK TV showed

a documentary on how Pope Pius XII (see John Cornwell's excellent book 'Hitler's Pope') was bribed by Opus Dei members and assorted Franco-backers/Nazi-worshippers to declare that Mary, mother of Jesus, was 'assumed' into heaven. It became one of those 'infallible' ex-Catherda dogmas that all Catholics are obliged to believe in.

And how this 'assumption'of Mary was subsequently traced back to a 5th century European story from early Christians who had had ergot-induced hallucinations that made them imagine that Mary 'rose up into the sky', much like a NASA rocket launch today.

Papa Ratzi's rants can be seen in much the same context. Humbug.

[tjwmason]

10. One small question.

Have any of you read the encyclical which you're trashing?

[emad]

11. No one has because it ain't published. Yet. Was due last December.

The Vatican declined to confirm that the encyclical would appear on Friday. But the magazine Famiglia Cristiana is to publish it as a special supplement on Jan 25.

The document was originally due out last December but was delayed as cardinals and senior theologians pored over every word.

Pope Benedict's first encyclical could prove a profitable source of income for the Vatican. The leaking of its contents coincide with news that the Vatican is to transfer copyright on papal texts to its own publishing house, which will then charge others wishing to publish them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/18/wpope18.xml

[tjwmason]

19. I think that that's my point.

I read the Torygraph article, and read the comments on here, then a question arose in my mind.

[forintegrity]

15. I'm not trashing the encyclical, I'm trashing it's author

and the fact that he has no experience with this subject matter.

Am also trashing the Catholic Church and results of how they handle their own issues (i.e. loss of contributions, thus they have to charge to publish in order to stay afloat).

[emad]

14. "Eros", "Agape", "Caritas":

The encyclical, a papal letter to bishops that sets out Roman Catholic policy, discusses the relationship between "eros", or erotic love, and "agape", a Greek word referring to unconditional, spiritual and selfless love.

"It is not totally negative on eros," a Vatican source said. "It argues that eros under the right circumstances is OK."

But the Pope issues a warning in the document, entitled Deus Caritas Est (God is Love), that eros risks being "degraded to mere sex" if it is not balanced with spiritual or divine love founded on the teachings of Jesus.

...............

"The encyclical is his attempt at being a compassionate conservative. In his mind, you can't really be free and happy unless you accept God's plan for human life."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/01/18/wpope18.xml

[Inland]

26. That's the trio I was thinking of. nt

[nemo137]

42. 2 things

1.) Caritas is usually translated as charity, right, or forbearance?
2.) Why isn't it Deus est Agape? I'd always thought that the love of God was best described as agape.

[donsu]

16. love can be lustful and lust can be loveless

nt

[hlthe2b]

17. this particular Pope has already shown the most incredible

degree of fascist tendencies and tactics (e.g., homosexuals banned, while pedophilia issue ignored, hypocrocracy re: politicians and denying communion over abortion, yet ignoring policy towards the poor, war, death penalty, his recent steps to take over the Franciscans and to "remold" the image of Assisi, his removal of official Catholic journalists who question teachings, etc., etc).


Why does ANYONE give him any creed? I was appalled when he was named Pope and even more so now. Those Catholics who love the church will be forced to break away. He is destroying it.

[emad]

18. MAYBE other things on his mind right now....SEE:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2046402

[hlthe2b]

20. this story is news to me... I'll continue to follow...

but withold judgement at this time. It is clear that there is far more to the story to come out, either way.

[Zebedeo]

22. Who can tell

whether the Pope is right, since the encyclical has not been published yet.

However, it is certainly true that "erotic love must be balanced with the spiritual or divine love found in the teachings of Christ." Otherwise, it is empty and unfulfilling.

[moggie]

24. Certainly true?

Are you saying that non-Christians can never have a satisfactory love life? That's sad news for a few billion people! What's your evidence for this assertion?

[Zebedeo]

34. No way!

NO! Of course I'm not saying that non-Christians can never have a satisfactory love life. That would be a ridiculous statement.

The statement in question in the OP is "it must be balanced with the spiritual or divine love found in the teachings of Christ."

The love found in the teachings of Christ is an unselfish, caring-about-others, willing-to-die-for-those-you-love kind of love.

Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. John 15:13

It is this type of love that makes for a great love life. Not just lust. I think that is probably the point the Pope is trying to make.

Although this type of love is found in the teachings of Christ, that in no way makes it exclusive to Christians.

[InaneAnanity]

36. Wow

If that's true, why do we have such a high divorce rate???

Jesus must be asleep on the job!

[CatholicEdHead]

35. Here are some more excerpts

while this is from the pretty far right/tradionalist Catholic World News, it actually points to a broad moderation of the discussion.

http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=41892

"Pope Benedict said that his encyclical is an effort to explain the true nature of love, by discussing the "different dimensions" of human love. In today's world, he observed, love is often discussed in language that " often appears as something far removed from Church teaching." But even romantic love points toward a higher form of charity, he said: "Eros becomes agape if one seeks the good of others, it becomes caritas if it opens to one's own family and to the entire human family."

The encyclical goes on to say that "the very personal act of love must be expressed within the Church also as an organizational act," the Pope told his audience. He added: "If it is true that the Church is an expression of God, it must be true that love becomes an ecclesial act." Thus the encyclical takes a detailed look at the charitable activities of the Catholic Church. "

Of course, Ratzinger/BXVI's replacement in the Docterine of the Faith/Inquistion Office did rewrite some of the initial conclusions. He is the former ArchBishop of San Francisco.

"Archbishop Levada, whose dicastery reviewed the theological reasoning of the document and apparently persuaded the Pontiff to make several changes in his conclusions, will be making his first appearance before the Italian press since his appointment last May to succeed Cardinal Ratzinger as head the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Cardinal Martino will presumably speak about the social and political implications of the encyclical. The Pontifical Council Cor Unum is the charitable arm of the Holy See, and Archbishop Cordes was reportedly asked to provide the Pope with a detailed account of Church charitable efforts during the drafting of the encyclical. Cor Unum is hosting a seminar on Catholic charitiable efforts on January 23 and 24, just before the release of the papal document. The text of the encyclical, which runs at a length of 50 substantial paragraphs, will be available in Italian, French, German, Portuguese, Spanish, English, and the official Latin version."

[emad]

38. Pope's message on love hits snag: LATEST

January 20, 2006
ROME: Pope Benedict XVI's first major pronouncement has been delayed by an unprecedented tussle over the final wording between key Vatican departments and the Pope's German household staff.
---------------

There had been "unheard-of tension" over the wording between the German section of the Secretariat of State, or Vatican Prime Minister's office, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Pope's German entourage, headed by Sister Ingrid Stampa, his housekeeper, and Father Georg Gaenswein, his secretary.

Sister Ingrid, 55, is regarded as the Pope's confidante rather than merely head of his household. A member of the Schoenstatt Sisters of Mary, she shares his interests in music and literature and has been his "right-hand woman" for 15 years.

Vatican sources said the tensions had been exacerbated by the fact that, although the Pope had written the first part of the encyclical in German during his summer break, the second part was an adaptation of a document left behind in Polish by the late John Paul II.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,17877457%255E2703,00.html

[emad]

40. Sister Ingrid Stampa described as the Karen Hughes of Vatican

The Pope's Right-Hand Woman

INGRID STAMPA

Pope Benedict XVI's longtime assistant--a German laywoman--may just become the Karen Hughes of the Vatican.

By Rocco Palmo



Last week, on a visit to his old apartment a few blocks from the Vatican, the newly-elected Benedict XVI wished to inform those gathered outside his door that he was working on his installation homily and would be immersed in drafting it for some time. Tellingly, the messenger he sent was not his priest-secretary nor the Vatican spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls, but his housekeeper, Ingrid Stampa.Having delivered the message, Stampa–long known in Rome as the new pope’s trusted friend, collaborator and "right-hand woman"–went back inside and helped craft Benedict’s cry that “the church is alive, and the church is young.”

Are we witnessing the beginning of a Benedictine reform? The new pope's first days have seen several moves intended not only to set the tone of his pontificate, but to assuage the anxieties of progressive Catholics nervous about the swift election of arch-conservative “Panzerkardinal” Joseph Ratzinger. One of the most reassuring signs of his personal stamp on the office is taking place away from the public gaze. In an unprecedented move, Benedict has tapped Stampa, a 55-year-old German laywoman and academic who has served as his live-in personal assistant since 1991, to bring her counsel, support, and "brain trust" role to Catholicism’s most hallowed corridor of power.

Stampa, who has never married, is a lay affiliate of the Schoenstatt Sisters of Mary, a group founded in 20th century Germany which, according to its publications, is dedicated to forming “a community of lay leaders in the Church and secular spheres.”

Wire reports have characterized Stampa solely as "the housekeeper." But given the Pope’s reliance on her as his all-access confidante, the better analogy is to see Stampa as Karen Hughes to Benedict’s President Bush. While she has served as Ratzinger’s domestic–a role which she took up on the death of his sister and trusted counsel, Maria–she was never just a cook and clerk for Ratzinger. On the contrary, Stampa—a former professor at the conservatory of Hamburg who speaks at least three languages and has an advanced degree in ancient music–ghostwrites and translates for him. She will now serve Benedict XVI as the first member of the papacy's inner circle, just as John Paul II's secretary of four decades, Archbishop Stanislaw Dziwisz, did for the late pontiff. More likely than not, she will function as the pope's eyes and ears in those places he can't directly go, and provide priceless "backdoor" access to Benedict XVI to people who would normally be hindered by the Vatican bureaucracy.

http://www.beliefnet.com/story/165/story_16598_1.html

[Sandpiper]

41. Seeking advice on Love and Sex from a celibate is like...

Asking your mother what it feels like to have testicular cancer.