whether * is a Christian, or anyone is

[Bill McBlueState]

Christians all around the country will quote from the Bible to support war, homophobia, and tax cuts. Then they'll say that whoever disagrees with them isn't a real Christian.

On DU, people say the ones described above aren't real Christians. From time to time someone will quote from the Bible to back up that assertion.

So we have two large groups of people who call themselves Christians. Each claim the same sacred text, and each use that text to advance completely different agendas. And each group claims the other one is lying or otherwise insincere.

It sounds to me like it's really two different religions.

And, more importantly, it suggests that you can believe anything and call it a religion, and perhaps there's a better way -- one that isn't built on unprovable assertions -- to decide which actions are best for society. People of any faith and people without faith should be able to agree on an approach to governing that treats people humanely and allows people to reach their potential.

[Dr.Phool]

1. Christianity is about 30 different religions.

And they are all the ONE true religion. All others are false.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

2. Yes, you nailed it

it IS two different religions.

And, of course we need to be able to put religion aside in order to govern. That's why this country was formed. If we lose that, we have lost our purpose.

And unfortunately there are a whole lot of countries out there that don't even TRY to govern without religion.

Any creed taken to an extreme is a dangerous thing.

[waiting for hope]

3. My take is..

Christians all around the country will quote from the Bible to support war, homophobia, and tax cuts. Then they'll say that whoever disagrees with them isn't a real Christian.

It's a CULT, pure and simple - most fringe denominations are nothing more than mind control organizations. I have never believed in organized religion because of this preface, if God is so omnipotent, why isn't everyone worshiping and believing the same thing?

[Maat]

23. We have formed a group in our area of those who are both ..

progressive/liberal and spiritual (who are believers).

It is composed of liberal Christians (United Church of Christ), Religious Scientists, Reconstructionist Jews, Unitarian-Universalists, etc.

Furthermore, some of us participate in an interfaith group that reaches across the aisle to more conservative groups - to establish an anti-discriminatory, peaceful environment in the local Valley.

We could not have accomplished these things if we bandied about the word 'cult.' It does not help our progressive cohesiveness when DUers use a word like that. It is a shame that we cannot have intelligent discussions without terms like that being used in the context of an alleged fact.

I ask DUers to avoid using terms like 'myth,' 'cult,' and 'superstition,' unless it is made clear that the term involves the personal opinion/view of the poster.

On edit:
None of us believe in an external, punishing deity, or belong to a church whose creed involves fighting against human rights. People can congregate to plan helping the poor and advocate for human rights.

[More Than A Feeling]

25. I'm confused. Is Christianity itself a cult or just the fringe denoms?

Christianity is a worldview, much like any other. It explains what the world and life are like and what we should do about it. We all have worldviews, even those of us who claim no religion. Is everyone a member of a cult, and if so, does it make any difference that I am typing this while gazing at my shrine to Saint Ted Kennedy?:P

[rkc3]

4. It's better to go by words rather than actions.

Look at what is going on with the budget - Christians are voting to take food, healthcare, and heating subsisidies away from the most vulnerable in society.

In Matthew, Jesus tells us that whatsoever you did to the least of my brethren so you did unto me.

So tell me, how can you consider yourself a Christian when you take these steps?

[FreedomAngel82]

9. Exactly

I'm a Christian because I follow Christ. I believe in policies that go along with his teachings such as those you mentioned. I'm not a Paulitian or anything like that. Jews are in the Old Testament so if they just quote nothing but the OT than that's not Christianity. Not any Christians I know personally follow the OT. We all consider it like a history book for the faith. And if you read through the gospel books Jesus never tried to put his faith into the government either like certain jerks do. And he respected freewill.

[rkc3]

13. Having religion forced on you is why the pilgrims left England.

Having unfair taxes forced on this country is why we started a war 230 years ago.

And Jesus never forced anything on any body.

You can't force anything on a free people without expecting a backlash. Fortunately, this administration will be learning from history the hard way.

[trotsky]

17. They rationalize it, of course.

You see, Jesus didn't mean for the GOVERNMENT to take care of the poor. And by golly if the gubmint didn't take so much of my money in taxes, we could afford to give more to churches and charities and then THEY would help the poor, and preach the gospel at 'em too so they could get saved and that would be better so no I don't support them damn welfare programs.

[heidler1]

26. Exactly why it's all a farce. Asking those who think it is a farce to play

nice and give them credit for not being a cult, shut up about their myths, never bring up the fact that the whole thing is based on a book written by men and honor their view that the words were inspired by their god as though that's a given instead of being the point in question.

[tanyev]

5. "Two men say they're Jesus. One of them must be wrong."

[Lenore]

6. And it ISN'T the One who said...

"Blessed are the PeaceMakers, for they will be called the children of God"

[trotsky]

18. They might both be wrong.

That's the thing about religion & faith. You never know.

[beam me up scottie]

19. How come Jesus gets industrial disease?

Dire Straits :toast:

[tanyev]

20. More meaningful now than ever.

there's a protest singer singing a protest song - he says
'they wanna have a war to keep us on our knees
they wanna have a war to keep their factories
they wanna have a war to stop us buying Japanese
they wanna have a war to stop Industrial Disease
they're pointing out the enemy to keep you deaf and blind
they wanna sap your energy incarcerate your mind


:toast:

[beam me up scottie]

24. Definitely.

I absolutely worship Mark Knopfler.
If I was religious, I'd build an altar to him.

Every time I hear of the death of another soldier, "Brothers in Arms" plays in my head.

[madinmaryland]

7. "If there was not a god, someone would invent one."

Don't remember if that was John Lennon or George Carlin, but think about it....

[kliljedahl]

12. Voltaire

If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent Him.
Voltaire

[DearAbby]

8. Will the neocon destroy christianity?

Wiil People who follow the teachings of Jesus, have to call themselves Followers of Christ? Don't know, All I know because of all this, I get a sour taste in my mouth when I hear the term Christianity. There is a long road to go, to clean up the mess these people have created. On all fronts.

[NanceGreggs]

10. You are only a Christian if ...

... you are a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ. The rest of the Bible is irrelevant; it is only the words, actions and teachings of Jesus that are (or should be) the focus of your religious beliefs and attitudes. Other parts of the Bible are the basis for other religions (Judaism), as are other Bibles (Book of Mormon) the basis for some religious sects.

The teachings of Christ are clear, unclouded, and need no interpretation, and he spoke unequivocally on many issues that have faced civilization throughout history, e.g. the separation of Church and State: "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

Christ spoke, openly and often, about caring for the sick, the poor, the helpless, the homeless -- you can comb the New Testament from cover to cover, and never find a qualifier for those words, such as 'under certain circumstances', or, 'does not apply to certain people'.

Above all else, Christ taught, through words and example, that his true followers would not just talk the talk, but would walk the walk; that preaching his Word without acting in the manner those words defined was meaningless and empty.

Too many so-called Christians of today have hijacked the teachings of Christ in the same way some Muslim sects have hijacked the religion of Islam. The two are equally untrue to the teachings of their respective religions, and are now equally dangerous.

A true Christian does not promote violence (unprovoked war), injustice (Guantanamo Bay, torture), intolerance (racism, anti-homosexuality), the accumulation of wealth at the expense of the poor (tax cuts for the rich, the gutting of social programs that assist the needy), etc.

A true Christian does not use the name of God, nor the teachings of Christ, to enrich one's self (Falwell, Robertson, et al), to gain political influence, or to propagate a political agenda.

A true Christian does not spread the Word through intimidation (calling others non-Christians when they disagree), but by being a living example of the meaning behind that Word.

I am not a Christian. Why do I seem to be more familiar with the teachings of Jesus than the so-called Christians who we see every day fighting against the very teachings of the person they constantly point to as their Lord and Saviour?

One has to wonder.

[AntiCoup2K4]

11. The word "Christian" means "to be like Christ"

You can't be "like Christ" without living by the teachings of Christ. There was an article recently which stated that the majority of right wing "Christians" don't even read the Bible. Therefore, how do they even KNOW what Jesus Christ of Nazareth taught, let alone live by it?

The obvious answer is, they don't. Therefore, by definition they cannot truly be Christians. Regardless of what they call themselves. The verses they quote to bash gays (or whatever their agenda of the moment is) are read to them out of context by so-called "ministers" who have their own agenda.

I'm no great example of a Christian myself. I get far too angry at these hypocrites, for one thing. Jesus would probably tell me to forgive them and not judge, but that's pretty damn difficult with the damage they have done to His name, and this country overall. But at least I know His teachings and can admit that I fall far short of His example. I don't hear that admission from many on the right wing.

[Deja Q]

14. B-I-N-G-O!

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. It is at least 2 visions of the faith and mostly what we have in common is

similar language, but with different meanings attached to the words.

http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[kwassa]

16. A good analysis

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_defn.htm

WHO IS A CHRISTIAN?
A simple question, with many answers

(excerpt)

Each group has their own definition of "Christian" which agrees with their own beliefs about the nature of Jesus, God, church tradition, written text, evolved theology, etc. There appears to be no way to compromise on a single definition that is acceptable to all. One apparently cannot call on a higher power to resolve the problem, because there seems to be no way to assess the will of God on such matters. If there were such a method, then different definitions would have been harmonized centuries ago. People would simply have prayed to God and asked Him to define what a Christian is. Then, a consensus would exist today on the true meaning of the word "Christian."

There is no consensus on what the "correct" definition of "Christian" is. There is only a near consensus within individual faith groups. Therefore questions like "Are you a Christian?" or "How many Christians are there in the U.S." are only meaningful:

1) Within a single denomination, or among a group of similarly-minded denominations.

2) In a public opinion poll where the definition of "Christian" is clearly stated.

[trotsky]

21. And though you acknowledge the problems in defining "Christian,"

you see nothing wrong with labeling all atheists according to a single definition. Interesting.

[LaurenG]

22. My take is that the Bible was a set of Guidelines

laid out by MEN in days gone by. If you haven't noticed, many of the rules are outdated.

Paul stated that a woman must cover her hair to enter a church. How long has it been since most women covered their hair? Women were not to be seen in church (sit in the back) or speak. How many Christians will go along with this anymore?

The old testament is even rougher. If two men are fighting and the wife of one man grabs her husbands opponent by the "secrets" she should be put to death. It was the "rule of law" for the day along with genealogy, wisdom and some really weird stuff.

The ten commandments are not a bad set of rules. They keep us from doing harm to ourselves and others. How many Christians follow them all though?

We are all (I mean all people, not just Christians) a bunch of hypocrites trying to make our way in the world. Doing the best we can and screwing up sometimes.

It is really difficult to see those who are less intelligent, or less spiritual trying to force us to bend to their will (or their interpretation of God's will). I think it's best if we all figure out for ourselves how to be while "treating people humanely and allowing others to reach their potential."

[PerpetualWinter]

27. Christians who say...

"(INSERT CONTROVERSIAL FIGURE HERE) isn't a Christian, but I am," are just as bad as those they rail against. Sure, you don't agree with a lot of what Falwell, Robertson, Bush, Dobson, or whomever the fuck you want to bring up does, but they are no less Christian than any other person who prescribes by the faith. It all comes down to interpretation.

My favorite example of this is:

There is a small town I've passed through many many times. There are two Baptist Churches right next to each other. So, in my boredom one day (I was wasting time while driving home) I stopped and asked around about the churches. I found members from each church and a far majority of the members said that the members of the other Baptist church were going to hell and weren't true Christians. The people (albeit limited sampling) I talked to from both churches were like this.

I don't see how saying that someone isn't Christian because they don't interpret the Bible the same is any different than that. The real issue here I think is that the moderate & progressive Christian base instead of trying to put their views out there, just want to demonize those they disagree with thus seperate themselves from them. Even though they follow the exact same doctrine, just in a different manner.

[beam me up scottie]

28. Some christians cannot accept the fact that

believing in the christian god doesn't make them morally superior.