Does it bother you that christians worship a Roman implement of torture?

[Lethe]

this subject sounds inflammatory, but i dont mean it to be. i was just curious if any christians object to using a symbol of torture as an icon of their faith. it seems a little morbid. for me, the crucifixion isn't that important. it was Jesus's teachings that i study, i dont dwell on how he died.

[Taxloss]

1. .

:popcorn:

[William769]

2. I don't worship the cross.

I worship the man on the cross.

[mikehiggins]

3. Nah, it symoblises the sacrifice, not the method

no matter what Mel Gibson may think.

If Christ had been garrotted or, like Socrates, allowed to drink hemlock, the act of laying down his life for his cause would remain the main focus of Christian worship.

[mikehiggins]

5. And I really do know how to spell symbolises (I think

:D

[punpirate]

4. Whenever this subject comes up...

... I am wont to quote Lenny Bruce: "It's a good thing Christ wasn't killed in the 20th century. We'd all be walking around with little electric chairs around our necks."

[EvolveOrConvolve]

38. Best. Quote. Ever.

I have it printed out and tacked to my wall.

[tuvor]

6. Your subject line doesn't match the question you're asking.

Maybe you should change it so it's not so misleading.

[More Than A Feeling]

7. Well if you don't think the crucification was important

I can understand why you'd find the cross scandalous or objectionable.

[jwirr]

8. No, because Christians do not worship the cross. The cross

is only symbolic of what the man on it suffered for the sake of the world. If they worshiped the cross then it would be idol worship as described in the Bible. That Christ who died on that cross was a victim of the empire. I wonder how many of our victims see themselves as "on the cross" or "carrying a cross"?

[Lexingtonian]

9. not me personally

What intrigues me about The Cross is that as an execution method it contains or was even in prehistoric Italic religions intended to be the Indoeuropean fourfold divinity symbolism. I.e. the symbolism that is also in the Indoeuropean counterclockwise swastika, and remembered in the Greeks' Four Elements. The Indoeuropeans used to employ four different execution methods depending on which of the four major divinities had been offended by the crime perpetrated. It's not entirely clear, obviously, but being nailed up on the cross was- like hanging- probably an execution method associated with offenses against Pater Dyeus, the Air/Sky/Cloud Father God, which was heresy stuff like blasphemy and rituals intentionally done falsely. (The three other methods were drowning (for sexual and fertility offenses), live burial, and burning on the pyre.) According to Demuzil's reconstruction, the Indoeuropeans had a sky/rain god trinity of Father-in-the-Heavens, The Son the Immortal Sun (sunnus), and Grandson/of in the Waters (nepots). The fourth god was associated with fire and being underground and stampeding animals in wildfires. (There were minor gods and goddesses too- drawing and quartering probably goes back to punishments for offenses against the Horse God/dess, for example.)

Take a guess at my amusement level at every Bible thumper church with an enormous Cross somewhere.

[GreenPartyVoter]

10. I don't worship it. It's His life and not His death that I

place importance on.

[Shell Beau]

19. I place importance on both. His death created

life for Christians. But I focus on what He did while He was living too!!

:hi:

[brmdp3123]

11. What do you worship?

[elehhhhna]

12. Yes. I don't think Jesus wants to see all those crosses if he comes back.

Just saying.


It's like Lennon fans wearing little handguns on a chain. Preposterous.

[Lethe]

13. exactly

well said. this is exactly what i was trying to capture in my original statement. it is what they did during their lifetime that was important, not how they died.

[Igel]

14. Not all Xian churches actually use the cross as a symbol.

The church I was in noted that the cross was far more widespread than anything just Indo-European.

I would point out that while worship is a bit strong a word to use, a lot of Xians don't just look to the man hung from the stake, or the suffering that he allegedly went through. Instead, they also note Jesus' admonition for each to pick up his cross and follow him, and even Paul's "body of this death" and admonitions to motify the deeds of the body. In a denomination that values suffering for Christ, it's a valuable reminder.

On the other hand, I remember 'queer' was a term of abuse; there was discussion, in some circles, of "reclaiming" terms that were formerly derisive and, I guess, taking possession of them. I suspect the idea mostly came to nought, except for a few, isolated words.

[NAO]

15. All the talk of blood, and the singing about bloodbaths makes me queasy

The Christian obsession with blood - songs about being 'washed in the blood' or 'a fountain flowing with blood' or 'power in the blood' sort of makes me queasy.

The symbolic vampirism and cannibalism ('take, eat, this is my flesh; drink, this is my blood') are also highly disturbing.

The idea that the Supreme Being and Creator of the Universe demands blood to placate him is also bizarre, primitive and savage notion. The notion that God wanted men to kill animals and splatter their blood on alters as specifically directed in His Word in Leviticus...that God, a spirit, was pleased with the smell of burning flesh, seems absurd. The notion that his thirst for blood was so intense that he took on flesh, so he could shed his own blood, is creepy.

The notion underlying the Judeo-Christian tradition - that God is willing to forgive 'sins' based on butchery and bloodshed - is a savage notion from a much earlier time. How it has survived The Age of Reason, The Enlightenment and Modernity is an utter mystery to me...

[onager]

17. This reminds me of a Weighty Theological Question...

Since I'm in Egypt right now, I've often pondered the question...

How would you defend yourself against a Muslim vampire?

Obviously a cross wouldn't do any good. Maybe wave a pork chop at it?

(Since I'm a Belligerent Materialistic Atheist, it's purely a theoretical question.) :hi:

[Lethe]

20. porkchops, bacon, garlic, sunlight....take your pick

:evilgrin:

[madeline_con]

24. Um, a crescent shape, maybe? n/t

[Dervill Crow]

35. That would thwart certain pagan vampires, also, probably.

since the three aspects of the moon represent the three aspects of the goddess.

I cannot believe I am seriously thinking about this. :silly:

[Inland]

39. In Buffy, the Jewish character nailed crosses to the wall

But behind the curtains, cuz her dad was starting to ask questions. Nobody ever explored whether religious symbols other than crosses worked, leaving open whether it was the religion or just something about the cross itself.

[Lethe]

21. JESUS WAS A VAMPIRE?!

This explains why he arose on the 3rd day! It makes perfect sense! Jesus is a vampire, he is probably still among us today. He could be working at Starbucks!

[madeline_con]

25. All the blood was in sacrifice long before there were any

Christians. The Old Testament God wanted blood. Then, Jesus became the ultimate blood sacrifice, and it was no longer necessary.

[Goldensilence]

29. ah so

instead of god being the reason for the bloodlust it turned onto man for bloodlust...how nice.

Either way still worshipping a bloodthirsty god.

[madeline_con]

30. The Gods have always wanted our blood. n/t

[rockymountaindem]

28. That is not a Jewish concept

This is why I oppose the "Judeo-Christian" concept. They are two separate things.

Nowhere in modern Judaism (dating to 70 C.E.) does our religion condone sacrifice. The way to forgiveness is through repentance to God for sin we have committed against Him, and repentance to others for sins we have committed against individuals.

No blood or death required.

[MindPilot]

37. Doesn't passover require blood be splattered on the door? n/t

[catbert836]

16. It's like Keith Richards used to say

"The church wants you to worship a man nailed to a cross. What kind of fucking logo is that?"
Now, if you ask me, his ex-wife's Bible cult got to him, because when I saw him on stage a month ago, he said "Bless you all."

[Goldensilence]

18. hmmm i've wondered the same.

I mean how peace bringing is a man hanging on a cross? I personally find a buddha figure much more peaceful and relaxing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. Christians don't WORSHIP the cross

It's simply a symbol, like the donkey as the symbol of the Democratic Party.

It was a very provocative symbol in its day.

[MindPilot]

36. If you think Christians don't worship the cross...

just watch the reaction when you try to get one removed from public land.

[Inland]

40. That's politics.

It's consistent with the cross merely being a symbol. They want it there because it's symbolic of their stamp on government, not so they can worship it.

[JerseygirlCT]

23. Using that symbol is rather about an

"in your face" response to death.

Turning around the meaning of an instrument of torture. Accepting it as your own and thereby changing it.

Does that make sense?

Think, perhaps in a more modern situation, about the ways homosexuals have appropriated the pink triangle. That was used during the holocaust by the Nazis to mark homosexuals. Certainly not to invite them over for a nice dinner, you know?

The cross is rather in the same vein, I think.

[Dervill Crow]

34. That's a wonderful explanation!

When I was a kid and my mom told me that Jesus died for my sins, it made me feel terribly guilty. What could a 5-year-old do that was so bad that baby Jesus had to die so horribly? As an adult, I get that there's much more to it than that, but seeing the cross always has elicited a little guilt.

Yup, turning the emphasis around to focus on the everlasting life part of it. I like that. All Christians know that, but the actual element of "neener, neener, death, you can't get me" in relation to the cross is good. :thumbsup:

[FM Arouet666]

26. Only a symbol, Christians worship Jesus not the cross.....

Sitting in quiet contemplation the Christian believer reflects on life and a love of god. No worship other than worship of our lord jesus christ, images of the cross are merely symbols.

Christians do not worship symbols, they worship power. Power to control the media, power to control what you and I think and do, control of every branch of government, control of society. The new revised King George W. Bible with 'The Book of The Prince,' St Niccolo, at a Christan owned book store near you.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I found some of the responses to the tread irritating. As for the cross as an instrument of torture, good thing the Romans didn't kill people with nipple clamps.

Praise be to the god of nipple clamps? Just doesn't have the same ummph..
:evilgrin:

[garybeck]

27. you must understand, Chirtianity was ROMANIZED.

it wasn't just the worship of the cross. 300 years after Jesus lived, they codified the Bible. Who codified it? The Romans. They decided what was the right way to be "christian" and exiled or killed everyone who believed otherwise. Check out the Gnostics and the Essenes for a more true form of Christianity, before the Romans wiped it out.

[Dervill Crow]

31. It did always bother me a bit.

I gave my daughters "mustard seed" necklaces to wear as a symbol of their faith. "And Jesus said unto them ... , "If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to younder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you." ~Romans 1:17~

[Nihil]

32. How did they attach the chain?

:silly:

[Dervill Crow]

33. Like this . . .

I guess a mustard seed necklace does sound a bit silly if you've never seen one. They'd be dreadfully hard to string! In Victorian times they were encased in glass, but these days it's more likely to be acrylic.