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Viva_Daddy Donating Member (142 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-11 11:06 PM
Original message


The thesis of this report will be difficult for many of you to accept. I know it was for me. This is especially true because, in our society, we are so used to hearing preachers and evangelists denouncing communism as "atheism" or "materialism." While it is true that most modern forms of communism came from the philosophy of "dialectic materialism" developed by Karl Marx, Marxism is only a recent secular version of religious communism whose history goes as far back as 600 B.C. and perhaps further.

Karl Marx borrowed a phrase from Louis Blanc which, to him, summarized the principles of communism. The phrase was, "From each according to his capacities, to each one according to his needs." This phrase, along with another famous Marxist doctrine ("He who does not work, does not eat."), are actually borrowed from the New Testament. The "no work, no eat" comes from 2 Thessalonians 3:10. The first phrase comes from combining the ideas from two sections of the book of Acts (2:44-45 and 4:32-35). Please get out a Bible and read these verses for yourselves. Before you can really come to accept the idea that "True Communism" (as opposed to Marxist or materialistic communism) is not only consistent with but is actually an essential requirement of Biblical Christianity, you will have to do a lot of prayerful study of the Scriptures. This is necessary because you will have to overcome years of prejudice and false teachings.

You see, ever since the Catholic Church united itself with the Roman Empire in the fifth century A.D. it has preached against and persecuted those who tried to live by this Biblical standard. The Catholic Church institutionalized communism by setting up monasteries exclusively for the "religious professionals" and then, to make it even more unpopular, insisted on celibacy as part of the "monastic rule."

Protestantism was born and bred in Capitalism and was spread throughout the world along with mercantilism, imperialism and industrialization.

The ideas of social and economic equality that are taught in the Bible are anathema to the "Christianity" of the last 15 centuries. The "prosperous Christian" ethic promoted by television evangelists (our modern false prophets - or should I say, "profits") and the political agenda of the modern "Christian Right-wing" who tell us we should cut social programs in order to pay for a massive defense buildup is the exact opposite of the teachings of Jesus, who told us not to place our hearts on money or mammon ("For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." - Matthew 6:21) and that our duty is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, heal the sick, care for widows and orphans, etc. because "as ye do it unto the least of these, my brethren, ye have done it unto me." - Matthew 25:36-44.

I propose to only present the basic outlines to prove that the Bible teaches True Communism. I will cite the Biblical verses involved and will expect you to look them up and read them for yourselves.


Before getting into the specifics, I want to make it very clear that neither Jesus nor the Bible condemn wealth "as such." A wealthy, prosperous nation is a blessing from God (Deuteronomy 28:1-14). What the Bible condemns is inequitable wealth: the condition which allows a few individuals to accumulate wealth, property and luxury in the presence of the poor, the homeless, the hungry, and the oppressed (those whose wages barely allow them enough to maintain food and shelter). In America today, the top 1% own 34% of all the wealth and the top 10% own 80% of all the wealth. This was also true just before the Great Depression.

If you are familiar with the Bible you may have noticed the numerous times the Bible speaks of "raising the valleys and lowering the mountains" (ex. Luke 3:4-6), "the first shall be last and the last shall be first" (ex. Matthew 19:30; 20:16; Luke 13:30), "the humble shall be exalted and the exalted shall be abased" (ex. Luke 14:11), etc. All these depictions are metaphors to describe the leveling process which the Kingdom of God is designed to bring about "ON EARTH as it is in heaven."

Hopefully, by now, you have already read Acts 2:44-45 and Acts 4:32-35. Note that Acts 4:32 says, "not a single one said anything was his" and 4:34, "whoever possessed fields or houses sold them" and earlier (2:44), "all the faithful together had everything in common." Luke, who wrote Acts, also reports Jesus as saying, "Every one of you who does not renounce all he has cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:33). . Many have tried to read Acts 5:4 to say that Christian communism was "optional." This is not true. What is "optional" is Christianity itself. One could choose not to become a Christian, but communism was an indispensable condition for joining the Christian Community.

You will also note in Acts 2:46 that the early Christians met to break bread together "from house to house". What this means is that Christian Communism does not require selling one's own house out from under oneself. That would be silly. The "houses and lands" sold were EXCESS. Here is proof that True Communism does allow "private property." The idea of "State ownership" is a corruption of True Communism.

The concept of Communism did not originate with the Bible. We have reliable documentation to prove, for example, that the Pythagorean communities practiced Communism as early as 600 B.C. as many other groups did after that time. The earliest records of Communism in Israel comes from the group known as the Essenes whose writings were found in 1946 near the Dead Sea. While the writings of Josephus and Philo already told us that the Essenes practiced Communism, their own writings have positively confirmed it. Many scholars have noted the many similarities between the practices of the Essenes and the early Christians. The best account is Father Jean Danielou's "The Dead Sea Scrolls and Primitive Christianity" (Helicon Press, Inc., 1958).

Not only did the early Christians practice Communism, but Jesus Himself did so during His time on earth. John 12:6 and 13:29 tell us that Judas had been entrusted with the "purse" for the entire group.

The principle teachings of Jesus against relative or unequal wealth are found in the following scriptures: Matthew 6:24; Mark 10:21, 25; Luke 6:20,24 and 16:19-31. Please read them now.

What Jesus is saying is that, in the Kingdom of God, there can be no social and economic differences - that the Kingdom of God is a classless society. The Matthean version of Mark 10:21 says, "If you would be perfect, go and sell what you have..." Perfection is precisely what Jesus is demanding (see Matthew 5:48), a perfection greater than the morality of the scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 5:20).

In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, notice that there is no hint that the rich man had sinful habits or that he had committed fraud or other illegal acts in order to become rich. Neither does the parable suggest that Lazarus was virtuous. The ONLY DIFFERENCE is that one was rich and lived a luxurious life (v.19) while the other was poor. The rich man received good things during his life (v.25) and is now in torment (see Luke 6:24) while the poor man was received into the bosom of Abraham (v.22). Jesus also implies (v.29) that the rich man could have predicted his ultimate end if he had just paid heed to "Moses and the prophets". Obviously, Jesus believed that the Old Testament also taught that relative wealth was immoral, which indeed it does.

The Old Testament prophets, by inspiration from God, spoke out bitterly against the rich who oppress the poor. God Himself predicts their downfall. Examples include: Micah 2:1-2; Isaiah 5:8; Malachi 3:5; Ezekiel 22:29; Jeremiah 5:25-28. Read these verses for yourself.

The Bible also preaches against collecting interest on loans. Frequently our English translations use the word "usury" in an attempt to imply that what is being condemned is "excessive rates of interest." But the Bible condemns ANY interest on the principle of a loan because it is unearned income. Honest monetary gain can only come from real energy expenditure (work, labor or service) or the making or providing of a product which is valued by the purchaser. Examples of the Biblical condemnation of charging interest are as follows: Isaiah 18:13 (see also verses 16-17) and Ezekiel 22:12.

Psalms 49:16-20 presents a good example of how the scriptures view the hollow emptiness of the lives of "the rich and famous" which we so much honor in our modern media.

The New Testament presents the same dismal view and predicts the sorrowful end of the rich. Read James 1:10-11; 5:1-6. James, you will recall, was the brother of Jesus and the leader of the Christians in Jerusalem who practiced communism as Jesus must have taught them to do.

In Luke 1:52-53, Mary (by inspiration of the Holy Spirit) predicts that her son will "fill the hungry with good things, and will send the rich away with nothing." And so it shall be on "that great and terrible day."

11/11/2011 - Some of you may remember Daniel Ortega, who was recently reelected as President of Nicaragua. Back in the 1980s, when first elected as Nicaraguas President, he wanted to institute a program to teach all Nicaraguans how to read. What book did Mr. Ortega choose to distribute to all Nicaraguans from which to learn to read? Das Kapital, perhaps? Or something by Lenin or Trotsky? No, he chose the Bible. Imagine that! Ortega was a proponent of what was called Liberation Theology, the idea that the Bible actually taught that people should be free: free from physical and economic slavery. No wonder Conservative Christians such as Pat Robertson along with the Ronald Reagan administration went crazy. Christian Communists! Cant have that!

i In his Antiquities, Josephus merely notes that the Essenes held their possessions in common, and the "wealthy man receives no more enjoyment from his property than the man who possesses nothing." In his Wars he claims that the Essenes had a law which required the Order to confiscate the property of the new members. Once in the Order, the members were not allowed to buy or sell, everyone received what they needed from a common treasury.

ii In his Every Good Man is Free, Philo states that the Essenes held all goods in common: house, clothes, food, wages, everything. Philo also says that the sick were taken care of and the cost of their treatment came from the common treasury. The elderly, too, were cared for and "receive from countless hands and minds a full and generous maintenance for their latter years." In his Hypothetica, Philo says that the Essenes were "lovers of frugality who shun expensive luxury as a disease of both body and soul."

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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-11 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. He also taught Buddhism. AKA The Jewish Dharma. nt
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chollybocker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-11 11:13 PM
Response to Original message
2. Jesus was a big-time communist.
Thus, the word "communion." Sharing bread and fish was his m.o.
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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. christians lived in communes for years after his execution. Committees
of seven ran things, distributed food and took care to feed widows and orphans first. Impressive stuff, the early church.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-11 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
3. Indeed. People would do well to actually READ their bibles instead of
merely moving their eyes across the pages and then blindly following folks who obviously hate Jesus.
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Fantastic Anarchist Donating Member (953 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-11 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
4. Why give up turf?
Why not debate communism on its own merits? It's just a just solution. It's inclusive, not exclusive.
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DirkGently Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-11-11 11:47 PM
Response to Original message
5. Sandal-wearing, long-haired wealth-creator hating peacenik.

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:01 AM
Response to Original message
6. Thanks for your post.
In addition, I just read a book by Brandon published in 1967 entitledJesus and the Zealots which claims, not that Jesus was a Zealot but that Jesus did not disapprove of the Zealots. The apostle Simon was identified as Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot may have been described as belonging to the Sicarii, another word for Zealot.

He suggests that Mark (upon which Matthew and Luke are based) was written second, but by a Christian in Rome about the time of the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. In his opinion, Mark adapted the story a bit to insure that the Romans would not be offended by it. Thus the Jesus Mark presented to us is more of a pacifist in Brandon's view than he really was.

I don't know what the modern studies say about the issues Brandon dealt with.
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Viva_Daddy Donating Member (142 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. I personally don't believe Jesus ever existed...
(I wrote the article I posted years ago when I was still a believer).

It is inconceivable to me that the dozen or so contemporary historians who wrote about 1st Century Judea would ALL fail to mention Jesus, any of his disciples or followers, or any Jesus Movement. The famous "Testimonium of Flavius Josephus" was a fraud and forgery. Both Origin and Clement of Alexandria (among others) read and quoted extensively from the works of Josephus and they never mentioned this passage. It was not "discovered" until the 4th Century CE by the Church Historian Euserbius, a man who openly said that it was "permitted" to lie in the "cause of Christ".
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Kurmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. How many things in your neck of the world never get mention by the media, the current "historians".
Edited on Sat Nov-12-11 05:28 AM by Kurmudgeon
They obviously never happened then, right?
Judge Christ by his Word and his Works. Saying He never existed is the lamest cop out of all.
"Inconceivable"? Highly likely actually....
As for Flavius Josephus, no mention of any fraud on his Wiki page.
You had best go fix that for them.
It's no different then if you had been there in person to hear Christ's Words yourself.
You'd have to judge for yourself if it was really Him or if His Words have value.
Or you can make excuses and hide from it, your choice.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. Your condescension toward non-believers is sickening.
You'd have to judge for yourself if it was really Him or if His Words have value.
Or you can make excuses and hide from it, your choice.


And you REALLY wonder why people who do not share your beliefs don't like your message?

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onager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Next time, read the whole Wiki page, Professor.

If you had, you would have found this link at the bottom:

That's a whole other Wiki page just on the Jebus controveries.

After years of having Josephus thrown in my face by Xers as "proof" that Jesus The Improbable lived, I went and bought Jospehus' Complete Works. And actually read them!

The biggest problem, as noted on the Wiki page you didn't read: The phrase "he was the Christ" has been viewed as particularly problematic because it seems to indicate that the author thought that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah.

But Josephus didn't think any such thing. Until his dying day, he called himself a Pharasaic Jew, a creed he had followed since he was a young man. If he had claimed Jebus was "the Jewish Messiah," he probably wouldn't have been a Jew any longer. Certainly not a Pharisee, the most conservative branch of the religion at the time.

To anyone who's actually read Josephus, there's another big problem and it jumps right off the page - context. The "Testimonium Flavinium" is basically one long paragraph, jammed in between two completely unrelated events - the story of Pontius Pilate putting down a riot in Jerusalem, and some hot gossip about Jews hanging around a temple of Isis.

Which brings up yet another problem - ONE measly paragraph about the great Jesus? Compare that to Josephus' lengthy rants about people he didn't like, such as Pontius Pilate and Herod The Great. (Not that Josephus could have personally known either of those gentlemen - he wasn't born until circa 37 CE.) Josephus practically documents every burp and fart emanating from Herod. Though he doesn't mention anything about Herod ordering a mass slaughter of rug-rats in Bethlehem.

Josephus has a lot of problems besides the Testimonium. He was a relentless self-promoter who often told contradictory accounts, especially about himself. When it came to magicians and sorcerers, he was as gullible as Oprah Winfrey. And he was pretty much a First-Century Benedict Arnold who blatantly sold out his comrades to the invading Romans. But he was generally a good writer, and that Testimonium just reads like an awkward bit of editing.
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:08 AM
Response to Original message
7. Socialism not communism. /nt
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
8. communism is atheistic.
Religion is the opiate of the masses, remember?
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Viva_Daddy Donating Member (142 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Read the article
Communism was originally a religious idea. "Atheistic Communism" is a modern phenomenon and not universal - see Nicaragua.
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On the Road Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
9. It is True That the New Testament,
particularly the Book of Acts, depicts the early church as having its property in common. Members who failed to sell all their property as promised are even described as being struck dead by God. However, I have to issue with a couple of things:

1) Christian Communism does not require selling one's own house out from under oneself. That would be silly. The "houses and lands" sold were EXCESS.

It's not clear how far the sharing of wealth went in the early church. It does appear that the house sold by Ananias and Sapphira was excess. But in Acts 5, Peter says that there was no need for Ananias to even sell the house at all. The sin was keeping lying about keeping some of the returns for themselves.

2) The idea of "State ownership" is a corruption of True Communism.

In a society run on the principle of one house per famil, what happens to any vacant or excess houses?
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Viva_Daddy Donating Member (142 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Excess or vacant houses were either sold or given to those who need them.
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LARED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-12-11 06:17 AM
Response to Original message
15. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is not interpreted

that there is no hint that the rich man had sinful habits or that he had committed fraud or other illegal acts in order to become rich.

See the verses leading up to this parable. ESV

Luk 16:10 "One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much.
Luk 16:11 If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous wealth, who will entrust to you the true riches?
Luk 16:12 And if you have not been faithful in that which is another's, who will give you that which is your own?
Luk 16:13 No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money."
Luk 16:14 The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all these things, and they ridiculed him.
Luk 16:15 And he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God.
Luk 16:16 "The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone forces his way into it.
Luk 16:17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one dot of the Law to become void.
Luk 16:18 "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.
Luk 16:19 "There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.
Luk 16:20 And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,
Luk 16:21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried,

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BOG PERSON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-16-11 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. .
Edited on Wed Nov-16-11 09:28 PM by BOG PERSON
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