I'm going to say this about Judaism (the "chosen people") one last time

[rockymountaindem]

This was brought up again in a religious flamewar in GD, and I'm getting really sick of it...

People say that us Jews calling ourselves the "chosen people" is proof that we have a superiority complex and that, despite our claims to the contrary, we look down on everybody else. They say that we believe ourselves to be both favored by God above all others and that we have a closer relationship to God just by virtue of being Jewish.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of Jewish belief. It is a canard that has been used to justify anti-Semitism for perhaps a thousand years (it dates back to the days of religious, not cultural anti-Semitism). I'm not saying that the people who repeat this at DU are anti-Semites, just that they are falling for an anti-Semitic line. Allow me to set the record straight...

Jews being the "chosen people" does NOT mean that we think we're better than anybody. It merely means that God chose to offer us what we believe are appropriate laws which, if followed, will lead to an improved world. My rabbis have always carefully pointed out that the ancient Hebrews were not God's first choice, but that we were the first to accept.

Being chosen does not confer any special treatment from God, nor a closer relationship with him without any other basis. Being chosen means that Jews must follow the Jewish principle of "Tikkun Olam", to repair the world. Jews believe that we are *obligated* by God to help make the world a better place. This is why Jews are required (according to the Tanach) to donate money to the poor, welcome the stranger, and treat all equally etc. etc. We don't get any brownie points for doing this. It is our obligation. If non-Jews do this, we believe this is all the better for the world and for them personally. Jews believe that someone who is not obligated to help but helps anyway is even *holier* than someone who is just doing their job. This echoes the Jewish tenet that "There is a special place where a repentant sinner can stand where a righteous person cannot". For those who have tasted sin and turned away are considered better people than those who have never been forced to make a decision.

To conclude: Jews calling themselves the "chosen people" is not meant as a put-down of anyone else. Instead, being chosen means that we have been selected (we believe) to follow the hard path of helping God make the world better (in ways that I think most liberals will agree help the world). It is not an excuse to treat non-Jews worse. It does not mean God loves us more than non-Jews. Jews with a superiority complex toward gentiles are generally looked down upon by other Jews for that reason.

So, those of you on DU who have repeated the falsehood that Jews think we're privileged or superior because we are "God's chosen people", think again. It doesn't mean what you think.

edited for clarity

[barbaraann]

1. What about the Lubavitchers?

n/t

[rockymountaindem]

2. What about them?

n/t

[barbaraann]

13. Why are there different rules for Gentiles?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubavitchers

* Belief in the imminent coming of Moshiach is a fundamental Jewish belief as explained by the Rambam.
* The Geula, or the Era of Redemption, is the culmination of the spiritual work since the Creation of the world.
* Jews prepare and pave the way for the coming of Moshiach and the Geula by doing mitzvoth - the 613 commandments, as detailed in the Torah
* Non-Jews have seven mitzvoth, called the Noahide Laws, that they should become aware of and practice. These are in fact general categories containing many details and ramifications, as discussed in the book The Path of The Righteous Gentile.
* The importance of opposing any discussion concerning concession of territories in the Holy Land of Israel, or otherwise strategically vital territories to Arabs or anyone else.

[rockymountaindem]

17. Well, this goes two ways

Firstly, the religious aspect:

The Noahide laws are also required of Jews. On top of that we have all the other laws of Judaism. Therefore, we belive it is easier for a non-Jew to be righteous than a Jew, because there are fewer laws for non-Jews.

In a larger context (that I didn't get into in my first post), Jews do not believe the Messiah is just going to come one day. We have to earn it by creating a better world that will be ready to accept a worldwide message of peace and love. Honestly, do you think if someone came one day preaching peace and love for the whole world that everybody would just sit and listen? I think not. The goal of Jews is to help make the world ready for such a transition by spreading ideas of love and justice in a secular context. For more on this, read the books of Leviticus and Deuteronomy, if you haven't already.

But when you examine a small Jewish group such as Lubavitch or Hassidism, keep in mind that Judaism as a whole is a mosaic. We do not present a united theological front as the SBC or Roman Catholicism does. We're a fractious bunch, which is both a blessing and a curse (though I think it's mostly a blessing, it's more fun this way :) )

[barbaraann]

18. I do not believe in different standards for different people.

I believe in a Universal standard of behavior for all humans. For example:

http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

[Darranar]

31. Because, religiously, they are two different categories.

Since God chose the Jewish people, whatever His reasons were, they have to observe a more extensive list of commandments.

[no_hypocrisy]

27. A Lubavitcher told me that Jews are the chosen people because they

were chosen by God to suffer.

I told him he'd better get a better selling point if he was evangelizing.

[goclark]

3. Thanks for the information

that was my interpretation of "chosen people" all along.
Thanks!

[Maddy McCall]

4. Doesn't bother me. I can't think of any religion that isn't exclusionary,

[greekspeak]

5. I am sorry you are facing this kind of anti-semitism at this board

I am an athiest, but if it makes you feel any better, I think Judaism is a beautiful religion. It is also one of the most misunderstood religions in the world. I do not think most non-Jews in America appreciate the diversity and rich history that is Judaism.

I work every weekday day with Jews, my major professor is a Jew, and several of the students alongside whom I study are Jews. I read Jewish writings, ancient and modern, almost every day of my life. Right now I am taking a break from reading Philo. I have never ONCE heard a Jew throw this canard about being "chosen" in anyone's face. The only time it is mentioned is in conversations about anti-semitism.

I have heard it from a lot of Christians, how it is they and people just like them who will go to heaven. But Jews? Never a word about it. Again, I am sorry that you are experiencing anti-semitism here. For shame.

[rockymountaindem]

9. Thanks

I appreciate your support. Let me say that I have great respect for atheists, because I think atheism offers a valid and worthwile perspective on religion. Kind of like an umpire or referee.

However, what I don't appreciate is when some atheists (like the one in question which prompted me to make this post, who isn't a DUer but an author on another site) comes along and says "Ya'll are fools, God isn't real and you are of weak mind of you think He does". I don't appreciate it. The article that was posted contained some really big slams against Christianity, Islam and Judaism. While I can't speak for the other two religions, I would never say about them what was said in that article (that Jesus was a schitzo nuctcase and Mohammed was a war-mongering bastard). Religion, whether it is a large or small one, is a topic for much more serious and respectful debate than it is often treated here, because it is a vehicle which followers use to assess their worldview. Something as profound as that deserves great respect, if not agreement.

I think atheists are worth listening to in these debates because for the most part, atheists aren't hampered by seeing other religions through the prism of their own religious system. However, a screed like that would be shot to pieces of it came from a fundie Christian, but on DU there are people who show up in those threads and basically say "rock on". If a fundie Christian said "Judaism and Islam are a lie" on DU, they would probably be banned. If an atheist says the same thing in the same manner, they get support from many quarters. It's a double standard.

[eallen]

19. The first thing debate should respect is reason.

And the first question that arises, when someone says that the Jews are God's chosen people, is what the factual basis is for that claim. At one extreme is the fundamentalist's answer, which takes the Torah as literal truth, and then immediately falls into all the problems that plague other varieties of fundamentalists, from the bloodthirsty nature of the god depicted, to the contradictions between its tales and history as uncovered by more careful investigation. At the other extreme is the notion that Judaism, as theology, doesn't really have any more factual basis than any other religion. It then becomes more a matter of culture than of religion. The Jews weren't the people who were chosen by god, but the people whose religion told that story. It might be a beautiful story and a useful story and in some fashion an enlightening story, but still it is a story.

The question is whether there is any reasonable position in between. I'm skeptical.

:hippie:

[Trajan]

6. Even as I agree with your disposition of this issue ...

and even as I point out that I avoided that thread like the plague ....

Even just saying the phrase 'God's Chosen People' carries within itself a meaning that connotes a superior position .... YOU dont have to say it explicitly ... the notion of superiority is built into the statement by implying a union with an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent deity: allegedly the most powerful being of all .. immeasureably powerful ... the perfection of greatness ....

ONCE you permit and forward the notion that 'We are the chosen of God the Almighty' ... it carries a meaning that represents a union with perfection .... one which those whom do NOT have a 'chosen' status, would by nature feel inferior .....

As an atheist: .. I just nip that shit in the bud right off: The belief of hebrew community kinship with yahweh, as chosen of the almighty, is nothing but yet another national mythology intended to unify a disparate people struggling to find sustenance and solace in a hard world ...

Yahweh was one of many 'gods' whom with the desert people 'communed' .... yahweh used to have a consort : Asherah ... again: another minor desert deity ....

I find yahweh just as believable as those other 'gods' that have fallen by the wayside ....

The jews ARENT 'superior', because they are just mammals of the hominid family, like I am ...... no more and no less ....

[rockymountaindem]

11. I think you miss the point.

Being chosen does not mean we are better or closer to God than anyone. Imagine a whole classroom full of students. The teacher points at one and says "I choose you to sweep up the room every day after class. If you don't do it, you fail. If you do it, only then will I grade your assignments, but you don't get extra credit for sweeping up." Does this mean he's the teacher's pet? Hardly. But it's his job. If nobody else helps him or her, they aren't punished. If others help this student, that's very nice of them.

Would the sweeper go around bragging to everybody "*See*, I told you the teacher liked me best. I have to spend 30 minutes cleaning up every day while you're all on your way home, so obviously I'm better than you."?

It's kind of like that.

[Trajan]

16. I think you are missing MY point ....

Perhaps I do not explain it well enough ...

Just saying the words 'God's Chosen People' is enough to carry the meaning beyond what you feel is intended ....

You dont have to explain that you are a specific level of chosenness, without any reference to superior or inferior status, since the reader/listener would AUTOMATICALLY assume a superior status, given the juxtaposition of the 'chosen' with the 'perfect' ...

You cannot escape, as much as you would try, from the notion that anyone who is 'god's chosen people', are implicitly superior to those who are not ..... THAT is the point; the phrasing itself; the meaning of the words when combined into THAT statement, carries a meaning that cannot be reduced ....

The only way to reduce that status, would be to deny being the 'Perfect Choice' ... It is an unfortunate fact that those who commune with the gods carry the burden of that superior contact ...

[The Witch]

7. Emphasis: You don't have to be a Jew to go to heaven!

This is HUGE and one reason I respect my born religion as much as I do. Jews don't think we need to "save" anyone else's soul. They don't say that their laws should be your laws too. The God I was taught to worship said that anyone, regardless of religion, could be a good person. It wasn't what you believed that mattered -- it was what you did.

Is that a little more complex than the "believe in me and get redeemed" set? Sure, but it's not like we don't get our day in the year to clean the slate.

I always thought it had a lot of simpatico with the progressive platform too. I did a little post about it too back in July... thoughts?

[Colorado Blue]

8. Thank you for this post. I appreciate it and I'm sure many

thoughtful DU'ers will also - especially those of us who happen to be Jewish and who've been subjected to a lot of pain since joining DU.

[Midnight Rambler]

10. My understanding is that God simply holds Jews to a higher standard

He chose them to recieve the Torah, the Ten Commandments, follow the law, etc. So, it seems like "God's chosen people" is more of a burden than anything else. And that's something recovering Catholics like me can identify with :evilgrin:

[rockymountaindem]

12. Yes

It is a burden, but one that we are supposed to be proud to carry. In the Torah, there are 613 commandments for Jews, but only seven for non-Jews. Who's getting the bigger burden here?

[Joe Chi Minh]

20. Yes. In fact, I think that, although every reserve concerning

individuals expressed by rockymontaindem holds true, to call them the "great saviour race of mankind" would not be to over-state the matter.

My reason for this is simply the product of random reflections from time to time on the Old Testament, and how immeasurably superior their Mosiac Law, fierce as it was in some regards, clearly was in comparison with the pagan religions, most of whom were still into human sacrifices. The Mosaic law, on the other hand, instituted the first welfare state; rudimentary of course, because adapted to a pre-civilised people, also still being trained in the faith. (I use the term, "civilised" here in the technical sense of urban societies. Ironically, the Egyptians and the Philistines were the flag-bearers of the civilisation of those days! And according to our social elites, the Jews would have been "philistines"! Certainly not the kind of people who would have any acquaintance with the fine arts! Also, reflecting on Christ's own directions concerning the New Dispensation being simply the fulfilment of the Old Dispensation; anything but its destruction. Jesus would often quote from the Jewish scriptures to substantiate the truth of what he was teaching.

Ironically, even to this day, right-wingers everywhere still believe that economic justice for the poor is a gratuitous add-on, thought up by cynical left-wing politicians in search of cheap popularity to further their career. Unfortunately the latter is all too often true, and once they've made their pile, they want to become gentlemen farmers.

But that's neither here nor there. With an essentially worldly intelligence, most politicians of left and right are essntially right-wing in their personal mindsets; the one using the First Commandment as a front, the other, the Second.

[begin_within]

14. Sorry to wake you up, but God doesn't care about ANYONE, even Jews.

[Jim Sagle]

21. And when did He tell you THAT?

[rockymountaindem]

22. Good question!

I was hoping somebody else would handle this one.

[begin_within]

23. There is simply too much suffering - God abandoned humanity long ago.

[Jim Sagle]

24. Maybe - but I always wonder when someone is so definite about the

unknowable.

[begin_within]

25. To me it's obvious; God no longer cares what happens. The "rapture" people

are definite about their views as well, but take it all on faith rather than evidence.

[JerseygirlCT]

30. Or humanity abandoned humanity

and ignored the advice given to them about how to treat each other.

[Dorian Gray]

29. Thanks for the revelation, bob_weaver.

Could you expand on this? Thanks.

[Ian David]

15. Not so much "chosen" as "drafted" or perhaps "helped into a covenant..."

A true salesman doesn't "sell" you something. They "help you acquire" or "assist you in finding."

Gawd helped the Jews "acquire a covenant" with he/she/it.

It's interesting that Gawd had a consort. I'd never heard that before.

Personally, I think once someone conceived of the idea of an all-powerful jealous, vengeful Deity that wants to be obeyed, all religions went down-hill.

Once there was a priesthood-class that could say, "There is a reward for you in the next world, but you can not have it unless..." that was the day human civilization began to die.

Yes, society has actually progressed since then. Not because of it, but despite it. The same way a child with terminal cancer may still grow-up and graduate from college, a society hijacked by the jealous-gawd-meme is still pathological and terminal.

Still, I admire those infected by the gawd-meme who try to inoculate others against its more lethal components. I think that many of the words of Jesus (many of those words attributed to him certainly came from other Jewish thinkers of his era) were just such an attempt-- love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek-- to try and repair some of the damage that revealed-religion was doing to the world.

It is interesting to note that mainstream Jews and especially secular Jews (I myself am a Jewish Humanist) are as a demographic about the most progressive and liberal of any.

Somewhere I read that something like 85% of American Jews are in favor of gay marriage, for example.

As someone who has been out in the trenches talking to the public on the issue of gay marriage, it is always extremely painful (and still surprising) that there are deeply religious Jews who can look at The Holocaust and not see the same lessons that I do. I have had one Lubavitcher tell me that gay people should be put to death like it says in "The" bible. Those are the ones who would cheer the trains as they haul gays off to the camps, and then be surprised and angry when someone taps on their shoulders and says, "You're papers, please?"

For the most part though, you'd be hard-pressed to find mainstream Jews opposed to civil rights in the greater secular society outside their own communities.

But there are slow-learners, small-minds, and bigots in every community.

[LaurenG]

26. This is such good information

I just love the way you put this into perspective. The concept of repairing the world is wonderful and quite an obligation. I too feel bad that anyone would treat others here with disrepect. Thanks for posting this.

[Dorian Gray]

28. Thank you for taking the time

to express that. It was very informative for me. :)