Religion: How important is it?

[SecularMotion]

Myra Ann Rutledge, 59, is comfortable with her decision to shun organized religion.

The Dallastown woman said she is not attacking anybody else's beliefs, but her personal connection with religion has waned as she has gotten older.

"I think if someone is secure and satisfied in their spiritual beliefs I think that's very important," Rutledge said, "but I think it's best to understand that what's best for one individual is not always best for another individual. I think organized religion tends to encourage intolerance."

History is rife with wars and bigotry caused and promoted by organized religion, she said. In addition, religions tend to operate like businesses competing for customers, Rutledge said.


http://www.virtueonline.org/portal/modules/news/article.php?storyid=14884

[notadmblnd]

1. I agree. I think religion is the root of all evil

and that includes the worship of money.

[trotsky]

2. "I think organized religion tends to encourage intolerance."

Religion has been so successful because it reinforces and builds on the innate tribalism of our species.

It also tends to downplay or negate rationalism, which is detrimental to society.

[tama]

5. Same goes

for organizd politics. Partisan politics "has been so successful because it reinforces and builds on the innate tribalism of our species." :)

And the same goes, of course, for "we the rationally thinking tribe" against mystically experiencing & poetically speaking tribes.

[trotsky]

6. So you're saying that reaching a conclusion based on reason...

is the same as reading tea leaves, or praying to a god for a solution?

[tama]

8. No

You can read what I said. And in the case you cannot or will not, again: tribalism that identifies with rationalism (only) can easily get tribal against group that is perceived as mysticism only.

From a (meta)rational point of view, rationalism and mysticism need not be in opposition and mutually exclusive "tribes". Unless, of course, your rationalization for your group identity is perception of a common enemy, in this case mysticism.

PS: and by mystical I mean simply experience that cannot be spoken about, at least by rational definitions only.

[trotsky]

9. I did read what you said.

And, like a typical postmodernist, you gloss over a lot of big problems when you state things like:

rationalism and mysticism need not be in opposition and mutually exclusive "tribes"

Never said they had to be. However, when they conflict, which do we choose? If the mystic says we should prepare for the end of the world because he is CERTAIN that it is coming in 2012 (and he cannot speak about the reasons and/or we will never understand them because they are so mystical), do we treat his claims with the same seriousness as when environmental scientists tell us what we need to do to prepare for the future and protect our planet?

[tama]

13. Good point

and puts the question in the frame of our commonly shared problems. I'll answer with a question of my own, if science and rational thinking tell us 1) that we need to change our way of living and protect our planet 2) as things are and continue to be, rationally thinking we must accept we cannot but are inevitably DOOOOOOMED!!!!!!!, then perhaps it would not be so irrational to give also mysticism a chance, prayer, meditation, what ever, and be open to "mystical" (unpredictable and indiscripable by current scientific theories) evolution of collective consciousness (or something similar) to another level where Yes We Can change our way of life with as little suffering as possible?

In practical terms, listening about PO, financial collapse etc. and getting to understand their causes, and forming a political party or other kind of political action - including organic gardening - to bring about to change is certainly good and necessary, but in many cases ability and will to do so comes from dropping acid or some other psychadelic to participate in a mystical experience of altered state of mind. IMHO we should treat mystical experience - whether or not aided by psychadelic drugs - with the same seriousness as what science and rational thinking tells us. And so in fact science and rational thinking tell us that toking, dropping acid, participating in ayahuasca seremony etc. are among the smartest things that we can do in this situation. To avoid the DOOOOOMMM!!! that is all too predictable and opening up to other possibilities.

[trotsky]

17. You still didn't answer the question.

When rationalism and mysticism are giving different answers, and we need to make a policy decision that will affect everyone, which one should we choose?

[cleanhippie]

21. Trotsky, you are not playing along. You need to get into your Philososphy 101 mode

because it appears you are arguing with a Philosophy student who thinks they have it all figured out.


Get with the program, man.

[trotsky]

23. Shhhh

The fun REALLY begins when you ask them how they *know* all viewpoints are valid. Who are they to tell someone who says they aren't? How dare they make a universal statement condemning another belief system?

[tama]

27. Them?

Am I now led to believe that trotsky and cleanhippie are members of a tribalistic group (or shhh! the rationalistic conspiracy!) with need for multiple categories of "thems" as good enemies to strengthen tribalistic group identity? See: social science 101.

The choise of word 'dare' now associates with a mystical poem that ends with lines:

Tyger! Tyger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?

As for philosophical question about universalism and relativism, I'm perfectly OK with both ethical anti-universalism of open localism in terms of languages and cultures, and ontological universal platonic realism as foundation of science (mathematical physics etc.), and consider this position philosophically consistent. And if a factual correction is allowed, no, I'm not student of philosophy, just a diletante amateur.

[trotsky]

28. You lumped me in a tribe from the get-go.

You don't follow the philosophy you claim to.

And you have essentially claimed that there is no point to politics or government.

Good luck.

[tama]

30. You?

OK, I could try to take the escapist way and claim that never meant such thing, just pointing out a rational universal truth.

But I don't. You started with "AWW, them awfully tribalist religionists!".

Sure, admitted, with the additional clarification in plain English: Your mama is a tribalist!

A civilized person - which I don't claim - would probably instead of plain English said: "Thou project too much, Your mama is a tribalist".

PS: I love politics, wouldn't talk and do it if I didn't. I just don't define politics as narrowly as is often done.

[trotsky]

31. Thanks for the diversion. It was fun.

Now that you've painted yourself into the same corner that all po-mo'ers end up in, my work here is done.

[tama]

33. What was your work?

And what is "po-mo'er", English is not my native languege so could you please clarify?

[trotsky]

36. Just asking questions to expose enough of your post-modernist philsophy...

to trap you in a box of your own making. Take care!

[tama]

38. Why

would you want to trap me in any box?

How did you conclude I have a post-modernist philosophy and how can you be sure - as a rational thinker - that in this case it was just you who made such box?

And btw, can you admit to yourself that also you can, from time to time, engage in divisive tribalistic behaviour that organized religion was accused of? That's the only serious question I was interested in this discussion, and no need to answer publicly. Just "know thyself", as philosophers say, and take care. Don't worry, be happy!

[trotsky]

41. I didn't. You did it to yourself.

I just had a great time pointing it out to you.

[tama]

42. Again

WHY do you feel the need to trap me in a box? Has that something to do with definitionism? Or rationalism?

And you have still failed to point out to me, why I should categorize myself as post-modernist, if that was your intention? Or how post-modern self-image would be a trap box? Sure, I've read Derrida, among many others, but I'm very sceptical how reading Derrida would be sufficient for being categorized as post-modernist - or how reading Mein Kampf would be sufficient for being categorized as nazi.

[tama]

46. And

How do you take it when somebody else is trying to categorize your world view to suit their own purposes instead of like, duh... asking you how you describe it yourself, listening and respecting your answer?

[trotsky]

50. I might listen to a klansman defend his worldview.

But I sure as hell won't respect it. Would you? My worldview allows me to do that. Yours does not. Nice little box you're in.

[tama]

24. My friend,

you are not listening well. To answer that question with a simple yes or no, either-or, would be pointless - at least from my point of view. :)

[cleanhippie]

25. Bwahahaha!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[tama]

29. Look how quickly you won

with laughing, wanking, laughing, wanking... (onany IS fun! <3) the imaginary debate that existed only in your head! Congratulations!

I like these win-win discussions! :)

[cleanhippie]

47. It's not about me "winning" anything, but all about pointing out how rediculous

Your pontifications are.


And they ARE rediculous.

[trotsky]

26. Pointless?

Then politics is pointless. Government is pointless. When a decision has to be made about what our national policy should be regarding pollution, or arms control, or wars, or any other subject, you are saying we just need to punt. Perhaps those problems will all take care of themselves, then?

[tama]

32. No words, actions!

That is a common line in the demonstrations I've participated in, demanding that politicians stop talking and do something - ie. what demonstrators want. Much projecting, why don't the demonstrators DO politics instead of yelling words at politicians?

Politics like give the stuff they don't need to people who need, go sing songs in an old peoples home, become a friend with a lonely person, start gardening, join ecovillage community, participate in talking circles, listen to others instead of talking all the time, create a family, drop acid, play social game on Internet etc.

To me politics is about being a social beings and my politics is how I am and what I do. Much more than my opinions about political parties, voting and what professional politicians do and Governement does. Anthropos politikon zoon esti, human is a political animal, said Aristotle.

[trotsky]

34. You are still dodging. What do the demonstrators want?

What if rationalists are demonstrating at the same time as mystics, and they want opposite things?

Majority rules?

[tama]

37. What if

you stopped asking that question from me, went to an demonstration (I hear NYC is now the place), asked the people 1) what they want and 2) if they consider themselves more rationalistic or more mystical and then compared the answers to gain a larger empirical sample for scientific rational purposes?

If you really WANT more rationalism and science, then go and DO rational scientific things, don't just talk about it and expect some guy over the net to engage your word games in your terms and frames. If you want mystical experiences, go drop acid or sumfink. Don't expect others to do for you what you can do yourself, that's just lazy. Unless lazy is what you want to (not) do, which is also perfectly OK and in many ways better. ;)

[trotsky]

40. Again you are dodging.

The issue of demonstrations is a red herring.

When a political decision has to be made, how do we make that decision? Do we study the data and follow reason, or do we cast chicken bones or read tea leaves? Or do you have another method of decision-making to propose?

[tama]

44. There are many methods

One method is to get together and listen to each others points of views and then discuss the matter to be decided until everybody agrees on the decision.

You are still not listening, but no matter, we are not making a political decision here and now.

[trotsky]

49. I will start listening...

when you have something new or interesting to say. To this point, you have said nothing new I haven't heard hundreds of po-mo'ers before you try and get away with. Let's try substance over wordplay.

[orpupilofnature57]

12. It's not tribal ,all Christians Don't think the same and all Atheists aren't

rational ,thinking that a persons beliefs prohibit them from rational, intelligent thought, is ignorant and closed minded and promotes intolerance.

[tama]

14. Agreed

Just using the same language as the post that I answered. Actually I'm very fond of "tribalism" as communalism, small family like self sustained communities/tribes - the way humans have been living for long time before big hierarchical societies known as civilizations started to happen, some still do and many are learning again.

The other more negative meaning of "tribalism", what is used in this context, is the "us against them" -mindset.

[orpupilofnature57]

16. You mean like " We the rational thinking tribe " ?

And I like tribes too , they used to run this place but their hierarchy wasn't in tune with ours .

[tama]

19. Yep

and as for tribal hierarchies, generalizations should be generally avoided, but according to anthropological data, most tribes seem to be essentially anarchic. Friend of me who has worked with tribal advaita peoples of India asked about their tribal chiefs, and the people told that they are usefull for some purposes, but if they start to think they are big men and other people should reward and feed them just for being chief, instead of also the chief guy gathering and gardening his own food etc. like everybody else in the tribe, then they just get rid of such chief. Good no shit attitude. I've read about bushman tribes where about half of the tribe population become shamans, and a South American tribe much like the Advaita tribes, where the chief is "rewarded" by getting to marry many wives, his job being lecturing about moral and good life and the job of the other tribesmen not to listen to a word he says.

[orpupilofnature57]

43. You know your tribes ,Thank You.

[trotsky]

20. Good thing no one claimed otherwise, huh?

I asked what we should do when a rationalist and "other" viewpoint disagree on a course of action when it comes to a policy decision. Do you have an answer for that question?

[orpupilofnature57]

45. Separation of church & state ,just like Jesus and Ben and tommy agreed.

How I live is my business ,how We live is everyones business.

[trotsky]

51. That does not answer my question.

Do you want to give it an actual try, or do you give up?

[orpupilofnature57]

56. I thought I did ,but "Rational" is specific and "Other" kind of vague ,Actually speaking.

FDR,HST,JFK, NOT AN ANSWER ,but they made rational decisions.

[trotsky]

57. Doesn't matter. You can pick whatever "other" you'd like.

Doesn't even have to be "other" vs. rationalism. Just two others, even. When it comes to a policy decision - something we agree we will all live by - how do we decide whose viewpoint should prevail?

[orpupilofnature57]

58. Majority Rules?

[trotsky]

59. Gay marriage bans are OK then?

Blacks shouldn't have gotten civil rights in the south?

[orpupilofnature57]

60. Got me

[humblebum]

39. As does organized atheism, as is is demonstrated time and

again here in the R/T thread. As a matter of fact, it can be said that organized atheism encourages intolerance and ridicule.

[darkstar3]

54. YOU encourage intolerance and ridicule, as well as engage repeatedly in it.

[orpupilofnature57]

3. Do you mean Fundies?Or the Pope?Practicing Yoga isn't important to..

society, but it is to the practitioner.

[socialshockwave]

4. Religon means a lot to me. But hey, then again

that's cause I'm apparently a sexist, racist, oppressive Rick Perry clone who also is Rush Limbaugh according to these boards.

Thanks to my faith.

[trotsky]

7. That is a ridiculous charge and you know it.

If someone has called you "a sexist, racist, oppressive Rick Perry clone who also is Rush Limbaugh" then prove it. Link to the post. You can even PM it to me if you want.

Back up your claim or it didn't happen.

[NMMNG]

10. So you keep saying

But you also claim you've been systematically oppressed by hoards of rampaging femizazis so...

[orpupilofnature57]

11. I've been a christian and DUer for years ,I've never felt persecuted..

just questioned ,and what's wrong with that?Most indictments Here are against Conformed Religions and Churches ,and a good part of them are spot on.Seek the truth and you'll get in to lots of interesting discussions.

[cleanhippie]

22. Oh, woe is me! Why is everyone persecuting me?

Just stop it.

:puke:

[LiberalEsto]

15. I don't belong to an organized religion -- I'm a UU

UU - Unitarian Universalist :)

[orpupilofnature57]

48. The Unitarian church in Provincetown is beautiful.

[LiberalEsto]

52. Yes it is.

So's the one in Brewster. I attended a service there while on vacation a couple of summers ago.
The congregation I belong to worships in a yurt.

[orpupilofnature57]

53. I Cross-Country ski at a place owned by a Finnish olympiad ,with Yurts all around

[LiberalEsto]

55. Here's a pic of our congregation's yurt

http://scuu.org/site/

[Deep13]

63. I just like saying "yurt."

yurt, yurt, yurt, yurt

[Deep13]

62. Are they done fixing it?

I seem to remember one of the old churches on Commercial St. being fixed when I was there last month. Was it the UU?

[cleanhippie]

18. Money Quote: "I think organized religion tends to encourage intolerance."

Winner!

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Deep13]

61. Important as a significant cause of historical events.

Religion has had a great influence over people's lives and in shaping the course of human events. I mean that as a factual observation, not a value judgment. For that reason, it is important.