Arguments

[undergroundpanther]

Against Christian Fundamentalist...Addiction.

The real issue with these people is not their specific faiths. It's their addiction to thinking they are right. It's an addiction to believing they have a corner on the market of truth. In other words, it's an addiction to a "made-truth," that is, to a belief that the truths they've created in their minds are indeed absolute truths and that everyone else must be made to believe in the same truths lest they perish.


The real issue with these people is not their specific faiths. It's their addiction to thinking they are right. It's an addiction to believing they have a corner on the market of truth. In other words, it's an addiction to a "made-truth," that is, to a belief that the truths they've created in their minds are indeed absolute truths and that everyone else must be made to believe in the same truths lest they perish.

...They are addicts. And like other addicts, they do not respond to logic or sound arguments. Like other addicts, in order to feel good, they must believe that their made-truth is the only reality, and they must, therefore, defend that truth against any outside influence. Like other addicts, anyone who threatens to keep them from believing their made-truths is seen as a threat to their own good feelings - or in other words, to be opposed to their brand of made-truth is to be a threat to their personal value as humans, and thus they will attack with ferocity anyone who even questions their veracity. If you don't believe as they do, you are considered "lost." If you oppose their political positions, you are considered "blinded by the Devil." And if you have the gall to argue against their made-truths, you will be called nothing short of "demon possessed" or a "tool of Satan."

But, as with any other addict, you should not take their attacks personally. These people are not to be feared; they are to be rebuffed. They are not to be taken seriously; they are to be pitied. They are not to be counter-attacked with anger; they are to be helped out of their addiction by replacing their need for made-truth with the healing touch of human love and kindness.

Yes. It's true. Fundamentalists can escape their addiction to made-truth the same way an alcoholic can escape the appeal of a stiff drink. Just as there is Alcoholics Anonymous, there is also Fundamentalists Anonymous. But two things must happen in order to break a Fundamentalist's addiction.

http://www.elroy.net/ehr/fighttheright.html
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I put some links here that point to useful info.
(Christian addiction also is a form of narcissism & inverted status seeking and putting others down and making them inferior triggers a reward centers in the brain)

Research in the area of religious addiction is deficient, however there were a few older related studies found in the literature. There is some evidence to indicate that "religious people in general tend to exhibit dependency on some external source of gratification".(rewards,status,approval of narcissism,competition(winning souls).

http://www.ecauldron.net/articles/archives/2006/05/entry_51.php
http://alfin2100.blogspot.com/2010/02/dopamine-drives-risk-taking-and-status.html
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=the-psychology-of-social
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/fromm.html
http://news.sciencemag.org/sciencenow/2010/03/psychopaths-keep-their-eyes-on-t.html?ref=hp
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-sociopath.htm
http://drugrehab.promo.web.id/why-do-people-move-from-extreme-drug-abuse-to-fanatical-religion-im-looking-for-a-psychological-pattern
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-funny_spirituality.html
http://www.vainencounters.com/forum/2009/06/24/dont-ignore-emotional-pain-living-narcissist
http://www.healthyplace.com/personality-disorders/malignant-self-love/the-narcissist-and-the-opposite-sex/menu-id-1469/
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=11507&page=1
http://republicandirtytricks.com/psycho-killer-gets-real-man-status-in-ayn-rands-narcissistic-worldview/

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So many of the social justice,financial,criminal,poverty,bigotry/racism,etc.etc.issues that we face as people trying to get by,as a society we also face in this country.Issues like bigots,zealots,bullies,injustice,inequality,wall street,jobs,child abuse,domestic violence,guns,abortion rights, All of it eventually boils down to the problem behaviors of narcissism,authoritarians and psychopathy and addiction and the addicted to power,status,control etc.types who abuse& twist the original purpose of the biology of our own brains and our social needs and biological needs..to get what they want,no matter the damage and pain it causes others. These personalities are both toxic and addicted.they are the biggest sources of most of the suffering,crime and mental illnesses inflicted upon the non-psychopaths, the survivors of abuse,& upon minorities, women and kids in general.They are not to be trusted because they'll do and believe anything to get high.

If you think about most every issue and injustice we face boils down to the actions of toxic people and their unchecked,unidentified pathology and addictions. Their beliefs,habits and secret lives are harming everyone else around themselves.Never mind concerning people yet again with ekeing out a narcissistic addicts motives for being that way,we as a society have spent centuries trying to figure that out desperate to help what this toxic asshole 'suffers'from. For this post forget the perpetrators and the just world belief system. Try to be honest when looking at the terrible costs of misplaced tolerance and pity for the addict and toxic personalities..has done.

And really do consider all the corruption,crime, victims and immense amounts of suffering these addicted narcissists inflict upon everything and everyone else..We must try to educate each other(non-sociopaths/non-addicted& victims of such people) about pathological personality traits,how to protect oneself and each other from further relational harm.The next question is what do we do about all the toxic people out there? Reality is, therapy does not help psychopaths,prison does not help either,appeasing & ignoring this problem just gets us hurt..A relationship with toxic people using our caring and pity for them gets us traumatized more and our lives destroyed..what do we do than?

This problem is the most important issue because these bad personalities affects the well being and very survival of people who are not addicted assholes. Pretending that these pathological toxic people are like non-pathological people it makes us sick and it compromises our integrity.

Does not matter if it is the abuse of an individual person, the abuse of our systems,our very thinking and thoughts,language or values,our culture and humanity in general.. the pathological &/or addicted personalities among us has damaged so much..They have to be separated,stopped ,discerned,contained or something before we can be safe in our own person-hood ,our identity and regain our voices to say what must be said and do what must be done so we can begin to recover & heal as individuals making up the society of this nation from the damage already done..
Our very survival depends on resolving this issue.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pathological-relationships/201008/60-million-people-in-the-us-negatively-affected-someone-elses
http://www.sott.net/articles/show/214387-60-Million-People-in-the-U-S-Negatively-Affected-By-Someone-Else-s-Pathology
http://saferelationshipsmagazine.com/women-who-love-psychopaths-book-center#high_3

[mike_c]

1. the K and the R....

:thumbsup:

[bobbolink]

2. You are the #1 advocate for people who have been and are being bullied!

I am blown away by your tireless efforts at exposing the true nature of bullying!

I would add just one thing... that bullying isn't the province of RWers only..... there are plenty of "progressives" in power who get addicted to and drunk on that power, and bully those they consider beneath them.

The "helping" professions are a very good example of this. While we would think that it attracts the idealistic person who wants to improve the world, in fact too often it attracts the bullies who need captive victims.

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/blogs/social-care-the-big-picture/2009/11/why-are-there-bullies-in-social-work.html

Why are there bullies in social work?
By Simeon Brody, community editor, on November 19, 2009 2:04 PM |
An experienced social worker recently asked me a question I struggled to answer. "Why" he asked, "do people who bully come into social work, when our entire purpose is to assist and empower people, not humiliate and denigrate them?"

[Raksha]

5. I have no idea why, but I have personally been on the receiving end more than once.

Re: An experienced social worker recently asked me a question I struggled to answer. "Why" he asked, "do people who bully come into social work, when our entire purpose is to assist and empower people, not humiliate and denigrate them?"

There are two control-freak shrinks I remember from the early 1970s. The only reason the damage was minimal is because I recognized them for what they were fairly early in the game. Also, I was seeing them on an outpatient basis, so it was also my choice to stop seeing them. They didn't have a "captive victim" in me, at least not for very long. Even so, some of the outrageously humiliating things they said to me still hurt and infuriate me all these years later.

[bobbolink]

6. Stories like yours sorrow and enrage me no end! Panther earlier wrote about the PHYSICAL effects

of bullying and humiliation. The damage done is horrendous, and last, usually a lifetime, unless there is a rare effort to heal it coming from others.

I am sorry you experienced this, and wish we could come together to find ways to expose this, and create a new atmosphere in all areas where people are supposed to be receiving "help".

Thank you for sharing this.... it is NOT rare, and needs to see the light of day.

Best to you.... I hope the pain lessens. :hi:

[Raksha]

9. Oh hell yes, Bobbie, the pain has lessened,

but that's only because I rarely think about it unless something or someone reminds me...like this topic did. When that happens I get angry all over again. And I haven't really shared anything, because the specifics are still too painful to write about--at least to write about it spontaneously and off-the-cuff like this. I could maybe do it in a blog entry if I spent the whole day at it, or at least several hours, which I'm just not willing or really able to do right now.

But I can't say it was as terrible for me as for Panther, because as I said earlier I was an outpatient. With an inpatient they really do have a captive victim and they can do whatever the hell they want. Panther has described some of the horrors vividly in previous journal entries, which I haven't read over recently but still remember.

[bobbolink]

12. So, it never completely goes away. I envy you that you saw the game right away.

You see, I have suffered some of the same stuff from "help" agencies, and it is so very damaging. Not a captive victim in the same legal way, but certainly from the standpoint of being helpless and vulnerable.

I have a whole different vision now of when people say that homeless people won't go to shelters because "they don't like the rules". More likely, it is because they have been beaten down, and don't wish to have their spirit broken further.

It has deeply damaged me in terms of being able to trust people, and in seeing more of the real evil that exists. It has done something to me that I feel very difficult to put into words.

Yeah, its not something I think about all the time, but the effects are lasting... I am definitely not the same person, nor will I ever be. What they took from me was a criminal act, as far as I am concerned.

I really do think that somehow we need to come together and write books on these things. It needs to be documented!

I'm interested in your input on more of this....how our experiences could be used for REAL change.

I thank you for sharing your thoughts and feelings on this... I know it isn't easy, especially in a venue like this!

:yourock:

[undergroundpanther]

8. Stanford Prison Experiment

Is why..Sociopaths are drawn to situations where they can abuse people and power,So they take full advantage in psych situations too.Ever notice the milieu & power relationships between Hospital employee/clients/patients is set up just like the Stanford Prison experiment was set up?
http://www.prisonexp.org/
There has to be a way to get sociopaths OUT of the psych system,all the way up 'the food chain'.IF they want people to actually get better.Raksha I too have dealt with asshole sociopaths in psych settings..

[Raksha]

10. For some reason this topic got moved to the Religion/Theology forum,

even though it started out in General Discussion. Wonder why the mods did that.

Re "Ever notice the milieu & power relationships between Hospital employee/clients/patients is set up just like the Stanford Prison experiment was set up?"

No, I can't honestly say I was aware of that, but then I'm not really familiar with how the milieu and power relationships in hospitals are structured. I assume though that it's very hierarchical and authoritarian, like pretty much everything else in this culture.

No, maybe I'd better take that back. I'm thinking about the last shrink I saw when I still had health insurance, so it had to be within a year of my husband's death. It was my husband's insurance plan, which also covered the family temporarily. Anyway, I asked this shrink to renew the prescriptions that were originally prescribed for me by a neurologist and which I NEVER abused, but he refused to do it.

And you know WHY??? Because of my ADD, which neither he nor ANY other shrink realized I had, and at the time I didn't realize it either. This was in 1995, and at the time adult ADD/ADHD still wasn't on anyone's radar screen, "the experts" very much included. It was considered to be a condition that afflicted mainly adolescent boys, and very rarely girls. In both sexes, it was believed to be "outgrown" at puberty (not true).

The reason I say "it was because of my ADD" is because when I asked for the renewal I came across very angry and vehement, leading him to believe I was addicted. In fact the opposite was true. For some unknown reason, I have always had such a hard time getting prescriptions/renewals out of shrinks that I had a real chip on my shoulder about it. He misinterpreted the belligerence as a sign of addiction.

I can still remember that smirking bastard enjoying his power over me. I decided afterwards that being compulsively honest with shrinks isn't always the best approach. I should have faked a more casual attitude, and not allowed my frustration and anger to show. All I did, really, was tell him the medications were effective. His attitude was like, "You want them, they work for you, therefore you must be dependant on them. And therefore you shouldn't be taking them." He didn't say that in so many words but that was the message I got.

[bobbolink]

11. It is also a strong component of "help" agencies, homeless shelters, etc.

Yet, I can't find people willing to even HEAR about it.

I wish there were some good expose'-type books on this!

In fact, YOU could write a very good one!

[RKP5637]

3. Excellent and extremely well said!!! n/t

[bobbolink]

4. "Our very survival depends on resolving this issue." Been thinking about this.

Quite some time ago, as I eluded to in my above response, I began thinking how those of us on the bottom rungs get "labeled" with this and that as a "mental illness".... Yet, people who misuse power and really hurt others in the process... never have any consequence of that. Not only don't face a consequence, but are held in high regard because they are able to screw over others.

I don't know how to really effectively bring that to the attention of people, and get some new thought going on that, but it is definitely time. You are right that we MUST get a handle on all of this!

[maryf]

7. very well researched and written!

K&R