I read a comment that got me thinking of an old arguement. an the concept of humility

[RandomThoughts]

It was someone that said all is created to give glory to God. But I do not think that is because God needs glory, but because God is glory, or earns that glory. It is not that he needs it it is that it resides in him in the begining. So all glory, as is all love, is just sharing a gift of part of God back to God.


That is a topic I thought about alot.


I once said, I can not nor would not worship what is said to be God, if that thing only desire was to be worshipped.

It was a bit contriversial, because I don't think people listened to the next part.


I think we choose to worship God and give glory to God because that is what we want to do, not because what we have to do. It is a statements of God's glory and love to say he does not only want us to love him, but wants to share love with people.

So when we love God, he shares love with us. And when we give God glory, the God of goodness and kindness truth and justice, he can then spread that glory based on perfect justice. So the glory does not all be for him, but for him to share in the ways he teaches of including love and kindness.



For example, if something claiming to be heavenly needed you to think it was better then you, then that would be a tip off that it was not heavenly. Since in truth, it would not need that, it would not do for those reasons. In my view nothing in heaven seeks reward, it earns it. It treats people with love, and in that treatment earns the status of being better, but does not need to claim it.

And that is what it is to be humble, and I think hevenly forces show that same thing, not because they are not better, but because they do not need to show they are better. I had spiritual help in life for many years and never realized it, looking back at life, I got lots of help, but never did they ask for recognition or reward.


The need to be seen as better, removes the better status, while not needing to be scene as better, actually earns the status of being better. I think weather something of spiritual is good or bad can sometimes be seen based on them not wanting or needing credit. But at the same time, when help and love is shared to us, how can we not give them credit. So we proclaim thanks and worship, not because we have to, or because it is needed, but because it is earned by those that show they do not need it, and they do that by sharing with us the good spirit of God,


I think that is the meaning of the parable that says take the seat at the back of the room, and the whole concept of humility.


But there is another meaning, I think that is also why it is so hard to prove and actually see the good side of the spiritual, because they don't want credit, they just want to get the job done and share love. And in my book, that earns a lot of respect and love from me. So why discuss the existence of the good side of the spiritual? and even play music that I think has some of that, because I think some of that was some nice thing sharing a way for a person to share love with another, and they took no credit for it. Because they just wanted the spreading of the love effect, and were happy for the credit to go many places.

So I point out the spiritual in many things, becuase so much of it is joyous, and I sorta want to give credit not just to the great tallents that sing and write such things, but to those that help from above for them to find the right notes at the right time, even if those above don't need credit.

And in the same way, we also learn from there great humility, when they help us through things, with out even having to know they are doing it, with just little turns of fate and stories and songs that can help us share love better.


Anyway I been thinking about that.

[ironbark]

1. “So I point out the spiritual in many things,”

Geoffrey Gurrumul Yunupingu - Born Blind
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2d5JeO7vSM&feature=related

Yours is a refreshing thread and theme.

Many thanks.

[RandomThoughts]

2. I probalby should not have said I do it

but should have said I like to find the spiritual in many things.

It is not like I do it, that is a failure in the same thread as my comment, just showing how imperfect I still am.

But thanks for the comment.


Although in the context of the sentance it was not saying I do it, but explaining why I like to share things if I find something I think also has a spirit of love and kindness.




Listening to the song now.

Your post and my post might also speak of living by faith not sight.

[ironbark]

4. Even as an aspiration, it is a worthy one.

“…explaining why I like to share things if I find something I think also has a spirit of love and kindness.”

Which goes to why I appreciate the thread and theme so much…it is a rare (endangered? ;-) sentiment on this board.

“Listening to the song now.”

Hope you enjoy it. Chose it for a number of reasons “a spirit of love and kindness.” being foremost.
But there are a number of themes running through it…one, potentially ironic humour in the lyrics relating to why god made him blind…...another, the spirituality/humility of relationship to the land…and lastly the deep spiritual recognition of our essential unity as human beings.


“Your post and my post might also speak of living by faith not sight.”

For me perhaps hope/openness/potentiality and pragmatism rather than “faith”.

I do not have a ‘faith’ nor live by faith…unless perhaps it is the faith that “a spirit of love and kindness” transcends and eventually wins out over all.
That is a faith in things seen and demonstrated.
;-)

[RandomThoughts]

5. I understand people see many things like faith differently.

And thank you for the nice reply. :)

I find my faith in my beliefs, and part of that is to know that nobody knows all the answers, so like you said about why a person is blind, if I am blind to some things, or a person is blind to others, it does not make one better or worse, and I think they all get the chance to see the things they are meant to see.


It was a nice song :) Glad he found a singing voice in his life :)

[ironbark]

7. For me ‘faith’ and calculation of the odds/probability are closely intertwined.

Life is full of circumstances/possibilities/events about which we can have no certainty and yet, we calculate the odds or choose to believe or have faith, and carry on. From riding a lift to entering a relationship, to having children, to trusting the breaks, to believing in god…we all place varying degrees of faith in people and things unseen.

My calculation is that this world is a predominantly beautiful and benevolent place…and is such beyond mere chance…inclining me to the probability that there is a god.

But I lack (and do not envy) the certainty of faith of either the theist or atheist ;-)

Going back to the OP-
“…he does not only want us to love him, but wants to share love with people.”

I’m always curious when the notion of ‘love’ is invoked to find out what people mean by it.

Some years ago when I first began posting here I asked ‘By what evidence/proof do you believe in love’?....and invariably and without exception the responses claimed that love was an emotion (and some even provided the brain scans to show it being experienced ;-)

I didn’t bother pursuing a literal reading of the proposition- ‘God is love’…but it would be interesting.

From my perspective I’m less interested in love as an emotion as I am in the proposition that- “Love is a preparedness to do for others”. (M Scott Pecks definition).

This, to me, makes sense of “Love thine enemy”…the feeling/emotion/hostility towards the enemy may not change or abate…but by being prepared to act in their interest they may well cease to be an enemy.

Likewise “Love thy neighbour” strikes me as useless if I’m just thinking/feeling/emoting good vibes towards someone I don’t really know, understand or engage with.
I believe this applies to my neighbourhood local and international…our global ‘neighbours’ are Muslim…and love obliges we ‘get to know’.

The Op has also set me to thinking about ‘humility’ in the context of The Virtues- trust, cooperation, respect, responsibility….and the growing movement to have the virtues taught in schools.

[tavalon]

3. I love my Goddess

She helped me out when I needed it and she kicked me in the butt when I needed that. She has no need of love or obedience. But I love her and I know that following her suggestions often works out so much better for me. Don't get hooked up on my wording. I imagine Deity as a mother but I have no belief that Deity is even gender interested.

[RandomThoughts]

6. My faith helps me from getting hooked up on terms.

In my belief God shows himself to different people in different ways. If an action or thought is of love and kindness, I believe it is from what I believe to be the one true God of love, and peace of spirit and heart.

[tavalon]

12. Exactly!

I think a big difference between being spiritually focused and being fundamentalist is that fundamentalists can't articulate what you just did.

Edited to add: I was raised Southern Baptist and when I turned my back on them when I was 19, I mistakenly thought that all religion was like that. Blessedly, through my pagan training and the wonders of Joseph Campbell, I learned differently.

[MorningGlow]

9. Ain't that the truth

I was claimed by my Goddess a little over a year ago, and it's been a hell of a ride! I feel truly blessed to be so guided and loved, and I love and honor her in return.

[MorningGlow]

8. Wonderful post

Thanks for posting! :hi:

I think humanity's biggest failing is the anthropomorphization of God. The idea of the "angry daddy" deity who demands obedience and smacks us when we don't toe the line has done more harm in our existence than everything else put together, IMO.

In my belief system, as long as we are the best people we can be, live according to the rule of compassion, and follow our instinct (God's "messages" for us), we are glorifying God--essentially by matching our vibration to the divine.

Thanks again for this, RT.

[ironbark]

10. Do you believe in evolution?

By that I mean the evolution of religion/spirituality? ;-)

Is it possible that 10-20 thousand years ago we weren’t as mature as we are today and required an “ "angry daddy" deity who demands obedience and smacks us when we don't toe the line” ?

Considering some of the ideas and options being floated by other kids on the block- “You won’t get into Valhalla unless you die like a blood thirsty warrior with a sword in your hand”…perhaps it’s not surprising that stern dad imposed strict “Thou shalt not kill” commands.

The notion/theory of Progressive Revelation is that religious teachings/revelations have evolved as we have, softening, deepening and becoming more sophisticated in accord with our capacity to understand.


I certainly agree…it is a wonderful post…and a refreshing change.

[MorningGlow]

11. Actually, I think with regard to spirituality, we've regressed

I think 10 to 20,000 years ago we lived more in alignment with the natural world. We were a part of it; it wasn't "the other".

Then, when rulers figured out that they could use spirituality/religion to help control the masses, the regression began. On an optimistic note, I believe that we're starting to return to a truer definition of spirituality than we've had for millennia.

[Beringia]

13. In your discussing giving glory to God

I have never felt any sympathy with this statement. And recently I have heard it over and over again when going to a local church, just to be around some good will and singing. But then they start talking on and on about praising the lord and how glorious he is. And it kind of put a little damper on my wanting to be there. I do think that some churches use those phrases a lot because that is what humans like, to be superior etc. I agree with you that there is a kind of paradox where people that give freely, in a natural way, and don't even want status from this, that these people show they are higher spiritually. Well not to go on and on here, just to make a couple of points.

As far as praising the Lord, my feeling about God at this time, is that humans are reaching toward God, and stretching our abilities to be completely spiritual beings. And I don't think God wants to be worshiped, but wants us to evolve. But this process is a hard one, with many hardships that humans often don't want, like the cliche that we are children trying to grow.

One story to share about giving. I worked with a woman once, who was rather stuck-up about being a Christian. I think it helped her when she was becoming an adult, to change her own ways that were fairly destructive to herself and others. But she was mean-spirited in a lot of ways and a big person, so you always felt her presence. However when my father died and I was feeling so vulnerable, she reached out and made me feel safer. And some of the more easy going or upbeat people in the office barely remembered that he had died, when I just told them. So people are full of surprises.