Governor Mitch Daniels " All the horrific crimes of the last century were committed by atheists"

[moobu2]

Daniels: I'm not sure it's all that new. People who reject the idea of a God -who think that we're just accidental protoplasm- have always been with us. What bothers me is the implications -which not all such folks have thought through- because really, if we are just accidental, if this life is all there is, if there is no eternal standard of right and wrong, then all that matters is power.

And atheism leads to brutality. All the horrific crimes of the last century were committed by atheists -Stalin and Hitler and Mao and so forth- because it flows very naturally from an idea that there is no judgment and there is nothing other than the brief time we spend on this Earth.

Everyone's certainly entitled in our country to equal treatment regardless of their opinion. But yes, I think that folks who believe they've come to that opinion ought to think very carefully, first of all, about how different it is from the American tradition; how it leads to a very different set of outcomes in the real world.

LiNk

[madaboutharry]

1. What an idiot.

[Don Caballero]

2. My Governor

*face in palm* A douchebag among douchebags.

[tbyg52]

5. Hey, thanks for making me think of the bright side - Perry's not the only idiot! nt

[Don Caballero]

6. You mean "Hairdo" Perry

How many skeletons does that guy have??

[tbyg52]

That's "Governor Goodhair" to you....!

:rofl: :hi:

[CurtEastPoint]

10. I'll see your Governor and raise you one Sonny Perdue (R-GA)

BOTH big losers.

[AwakeAtLast]

29. I'm one up on you - I also get to live in Pence's district!

A double whammy! :(

[tbyg52]

3. >>ought to think very carefully

Attempted chilling effect. Nice, jerk.

IIRC, Hitler was not an atheist.

[Ikonoklast]

4. Going right to Godwin, and getting it over with.

Fuck you Daniels, you tool.

[HeresyLives]

14. Stalin was a seminary student,

and Mao was raised in the Buddhist tradition, they think.

I can understand why religious people don't want to claim them, but atheists they were not.

[darkstar3]

15. It wouldn't matter anyway.

Their crimes were not faith-based, unlike so many referenced in this thread.

[Joe Chi Minh]

27. Stalin continually persecuted the churches in the 1930s, until WWII

And I've not come across any suggestion that Mao remained a Buddhist, when he grew up.

[HeresyLives]

28. Stalin was a Georgian Orthodox catholic.

What he opposed was human-made church power...because it supported the Czar, however he didn't hestiate to use the church when necessary.

But if you want to read about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Religious_beliefs_and_policies

I said Mao was thot to have been raised in the Buddhist tradition...nobody knows much about his religious leanings beyond that. China doesn't have 'religions' like the west does.

[Joe Chi Minh]

35. 'human-made church power'. Yes. The Russian Orthodox Church. Or did

you think it came down straight from Heaven and was run by angels?

We do, however, know that Mao's Communist credo was atheist, so it doesn't require a giant leap of faith to recognise that he would not have remained a Buddhist.

Hitler was baptised a Catholic, but repudiated the Catholic Church, all the churches, once it had ceased to be a threat, and became a liability.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/church_in_nazi_germany.htm

[struggle4progress]

52. Stalin was expelled from the seminary, and I know of no evidence religion played any role

in his later life

[Turbineguy]

7. Dufus

Hitler was a catholic.

But Beethoven was an atheist. Some people can't stand classical music.

Some more classical criminals

http://progressofliberty.today.com/2009/04/12/famous-atheist-composers/

[roseBudd]

8. Seems he forgot Bind Torture Kill aka BTK killer

[Manifestor_of_Light]

31. The Good Lutheran Boy from Wichita.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

9. God tole me to drown my kids in the lake..... n/t

[BeyondGeography]

11. What about lynching? Child abuse?

Hate crimes generally? No God-fearing perps there?

What an unwelcome insight into this man's tiny, narrow mind.

[pnorman]

12. The Most Famous Christian of the 20th Century?

http://www.somareview.com/mostfamouschristian.cfm

[struggle4progress]

49. See the account of his former roommate, August Kubizek, "The Young Hitler I Knew" at p 95

http://books.google.com/books?id=vV0BpSKYJ6QC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=August+Kubizek.+The+Young+Hitler+I+Knew.+%22I+do+not+think+he+ever+attended+mass%22&source=bl&ots=fsz1nWe9_S&sig=mxyOntETYN_vcwKqOif-EncB788&hl=en&ei=aVjnSpSWLpDelAfY0NX-Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Kubizek says Hitler did not attend mass

[darkstar3]

13. Sounds like somebody

would be raping, thieving, and murdering if not for the fear that he would be eternally spanked for doing so.

What a wonderful example of humanity. Jackass...

[LiberalFighter]

16. They had the interview yesterday on WANE TV

I blasted Mellinger about Daniels. Telling him that most wars were caused by those of religious faith. That at most less than 1% of prisoners were atheists and that when those convicted are process they record the prisoners' faith just like they do in the military.

Also, challenged Daniels statement that this country was founded by Christians or was founded on Christian values. Told Mellinger that he needs to read the Declaration of Independence and see where it mentions anything about religion as a reason for the Revolution.

Reminded Mellinger that Daniels was the OMB Director and he screwed up the budget and has already messed up Indiana's economy with his lack of leadership.

[Delphinus]

75. Good for you!

That's a pretty bad "reporter" there.

[47of74]

17. Yo, Governor Idiot

What religion was John Geoghan? Or Eric Robert Rudolph? Or Paul Jennings Hill? Or Benito Mussolini? Or Hideki Tōjō? I could go on for a real long time listing criminals who were not atheist.

And I almost forgot. What about this idiot who got up on his high horse on a regular goddamn basis about what a Christian he was all the time?

[ck4829]

18. Athanase Seromba

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanase_Seromba

Think about that, you tool.

[BrklynLiberal]

20. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:wow: :wow: :wow: :wow: :wow:

Seromba fled Rwanda in July 1994, and later moved to Italy and continued working as a priest for the Catholic Church near the city of Florence using the alias Anastasio Sumba Bura.

[BrklynLiberal]

19. Should we mention all the problems the church has been having with its pedophilic priests???

and the condoning coverups that have followed accusations?

How about the close relationship between Hitler and the Catholic Church??


Cannot figure out if the man is a totally ignorant schmuck, or a just a dirty, filthy liar.







Mother Mary with the Holy Child Jesus Christ, Oil/canvas, 1913
by Adolf Hitler

(Source: Two Austrians, An "artist" and a "house painter")

It's really quite attractive, actually. Something only a Christian could invent.
Observe that Jesus looks like a blond haired Aryan. Nazis did not consider Jesus a Jew

_________________________________________________________________________________________________


On April 20, 1939, Archbishop Orsenigo celebrated Hitler's birthday. The celebrations, initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) became a tradition. Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send "warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany" and added with "fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars."

(Source: Hitler's Pope: The Secret History of Pius

_________________________________________________________________________________________________


Hitler greets Muller the "Bishop of the Reich" and Abbot Schachleitner

_____________________________________________________________________________________________




Hitler signing his autograph for a Christian fan

________________________________________________________________________________


The Goring Wedding

Only Christians perform Christian weddings, and the Nazis were no exception.

Hermann Goring married Emmy Sonnemann, a famous Opera star.

Adolf Hitler stands in the front row as "Best Man" during the ceremony in the Cathedral by Reichbishop Müller.

________________________________________________________________________________________________


A Nazi flag flies in front of the Cologne Cathedral, 1937

_______________________________________________________________________________


Catholic Bishops giving the Nazi salute in honor of Hitler.
Note Joseph Goebbels (far right) and Wilhelm Frick (second from right)

______________________________________________________________________________________

[Tansy_Gold]

23. "Gott mit uns"

"God with Us"

[struggle4progress]

50. That slogan on Prussian belt buckles predates the Nazis: see

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_mit_uns

[moobu2]

54. So? I cant see what pointing that out makes any difference.

The Nazi’s saw themselves as a continuation of the Christian German culture, maybe romanticized and perfected in their minds, and this Christian slogan had a long history there. It seems natural they would use it. I cant see the point.

[DBoon]

21. José Efraín Ríos Montt

Ríos Montt is best known outside Guatemala for heading a military regime (1982–1983) that was responsible in some of the worst atrocities of Guatemala's 36-year civil war. The war ended with a peace treaty in 1996. The civil war pitted left-wing rebel groups against the army, with huge numbers of Mayan campesinos caught in the crossfire. At least 200,000 Guatemalans were killed during the conflict, making it one of Latin America's most violent wars in modern history.

Indigenous Mayans suffered greatly under his rule, and it is documented that his government deliberately targeted thousands of them since many of them in the countryside were suspected of harboring sympathies for the guerrilla movement.

from Wikipedia. Note the following:

In 1978, he left the Roman Catholic Church and became a minister in the California-based evangelical/pentecostal Church of the Word; since then Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson have been personal friends.

And then there is their "patron saint" Francisco Franco who mudered 30,000 of his countrymen, and a hero to the American right wing

[madrchsod]

22. really?

mitch is a dumb fuck.........

[rd_kent]

24. Wow, what a fucking hypcritical idiot!

[rd_kent]

25. I hate it when the believers make this claim is it is just so dishonest.

They may or may not have been atheists, but it really doesn't matter because NONE of their crimes were done in the NAME of atheism.

Now, if we want to look at atrocities committed in the name of religion, well....you get the point.

[humblebum]

64. He made a ridiculous statement but if he had said "most of"

instead of "all", he would have been correct.

[Mendocino]

26. I'm no expert on the klan

but don't you have to be an active member of a recognized protestant church in order to join the KKK? I guess this dimwit (Daniels) doesn't consider violence against minorities to be horrific.

[JoeyT]

32. Not anymore.

Now they'll let in Catholics too. Even the Klan got a little more open minded. That and it was the only way to swell their numbers.
They still hate Jewish people, minorities, and atheists though.

[Mendocino]

40. I think it was Sinclair Lewis that said

when fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in a flag and carrying a bible.

I have a friend that moved from Ohio to South Carolina. As soon as he got there, people came out of the woodwork, asking him his religious preference and wouldn't he like to come to their church. No, he replied, I don't go to church. A week later he found his dog hung from a tree in his own front yard.

[JoeyT]

41. Yep, that sounds about right.

Doesn't surprise me in the least. My state is on the verge of possibly electing Roy Moore, after all. ;)

[Mendocino]

42. Well my state has idiots

like John "Tan in a can Boner" who may not quite match Moore in religious fervor but equally frightening. I seem to remember something from high school civics class about "There shall be no religious test for government officials" or something close to that. I'm just to tired to look up the exact wording right now, been up since 5:15. Good night:hi:

[BadGimp]

30. What an AssClown

[edhopper]

33. To quote Rudy Giuliani

9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11 and, of course 9/11.
No atheist in those planes.

[Christa]

34. Clearly, the religion virus infected his brain

"And atheism leads to brutality. All the horrific crimes of the last century were committed by atheists -Stalin and Hitler and Mao and so forth- because it flows very naturally from an idea that there is no judgment and there is nothing other than the brief time we spend on this Earth."

Nonsense.

What about the religious belief that you will be forgiven? A weekday sinner and a Sunday holier than thou.

[Odin2005]

36. The stupid, it BURNS!!!

[DeSwiss]

37. When America's downfall is examined.....

...(and before thou dost protest, remember historically they have all fallen down), they will find that the ignorance resultant from religious belief is what killed it. The very "religious freedom" that religionists like to claim is the reason for the America's creation -- will be the cause of its demise.

- If he were real, I'd say Yahweh has a wicked sense of humor.....

[moobu2]

38. If history is any guide

atheists and homosexuals will get the blame.

[NMMNG]

39. Yep

We gays and atheist are responsible for all the evil in the world. :eyes:

[TZ]

43. And Hitler went to church because he was an atheist.

Got it. This idiot probably doesn't get the concept that Catholics for YEARS had been accusing Jews of horrible crimes. But I guess Jews=Atheists since neither are Christians.

[Deep13]

46. Hitler's ideology was rooted in antisemitism.

It was not merely incidental to it. The shit the RW says about nonbelievers and about gays are the modern versions of the blood libels.

[struggle4progress]

51. What evidence do you actually have of Hitler attending church services?

[TZ]

55. What evidence do you have that he did not?

If you listen to the stuff he spouts about the Jews..it comes STRAIGHT from Catholic dogma of the time. Oh btw, I have been to Churches that to this DAY preach about Jews murdering Jesus.
Oh and nominating Pius II for Sainthood...Shows how ingrained antisemitism STILL is in the Catholic Church.

[Meshuga]

56. The appropriate question is: what evidence does anyone have that Hitler was an atheist?

That is the claim being made when someone says that Hitler's atrocities were that of an atheist. But what is the support for the claim?

It is Hitler who said things like, "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice."

I know Hitler didn't seem to be pious but who is to say that he was an atheist? Regardless, Nazis borrowed from religious writings (i.e., anti-semitic works from Martin Luther) in order to justify the murder of Jews. It is very disingenuous to pin the Holocaust on atheism.

[darkstar3]

58. Meshuga's rational approach strikes again!

You are a breath of fresh air for me, Meshuga. I never thought I'd agree so often with a believer. :toast:

[Meshuga]

60. Perhaps the world has gone meshuga?

Probably not. I am sure we agree more with each other than we realize. :toast: (with a nice dark lager)

[darkstar3]

61. Ew,

not on beer, apparently. Amber ale for me. :beer:

[Meshuga]

62. LOL

Maybe not. But it is difficult for me to find a beer I dislike so an amber ale would go down well. I brewed a batch last year and I think I still have a couple of bottles in the fridge. I wonder if they are still any good after sitting there for over a year.

[darkstar3]

63. I've always heard that beer and fine wine are exact opposites.

But then again, I know about |this| much about wine. Cheers anyway!

[rd_kent]

44. Kick

[Deep13]

45. Lying asshole.

First, none of that is an argument for let alone proof of a god.

Second, Hitler was Catholic and most of Germany was Christian. Stalin was a Stalinist as well as a former seminary student. He essentially made himself god. It's worth noting that the Russians did more to stop Hitler than anyone else. Same with Mao. He was a Maoist and the people believed that government represented a mandate from heaven. Communism may not have been religious, but it sure acted like a religion. The Japanese emperor was a kind of Buddhist god and the atrocities committed in his name where divinely authorized. Mussolini held office with the express approval of the Vatican. Hitler had the acquiescence of the RC Church and the church was complicit in many of the Nazi's crimes, including the escape from justice at the end. To this day, the RC Church has not excommunicated any high official of the 3rd Reich except for one man because he married a Protestant.

None of these leaders or their countries acted the way they did because they were being too reasonable. On the other hand, the foundation of this country without an official church and with a separation of church and state are the result of the skepticism of the founders. Washington was a skeptic and died without religious rites. Jefferson was probably an outright unbeliever. Franklin was a deist, an idea that removes everything from religion except the idea of first cause. (No one in the 18th century could imagine how everything started off without divine intervention.) Adams was a believer, but was still secular in his approach to governance and became increasingly skeptical as he got older.

Far from leading to criminality, there are very few if any atheists in American prisons. I don't know why that is, but it is safe to say that nonbelievers are at least as moral as Christians. If fact, in one way we are more so. We do not have divine authority to sanctify our prejudices or to justify cruelty.

P.S.

Of course the REAL crime here is wearing a paisley tie with a pink shirt. Eeeew!!!

[Mendocino]

48. 99.79% of the US Prison population

claim some sort of religious preference. Only 0.21% say they atheists. So out of 1000 prisoners 998 are religious in some form and two aren't.

Now Mr. Indiana Governor, you want to revise your crap statement?

[PassingFair]

47. if there is no eternal standard of right and wrong, then all that matters is power.

Run away from this immoral idiot!

If his religion is all that is holding him back
from his ruthless achievement of "power", then
he should be locked up.

Really.

[struggle4progress]

53. I wonder if the folk busy panning him bothered to read the entire interview:

... Mark Mellinger: You've talked about your own personal faith very little ...
Governor Daniels: It's true. I don't talk about these things too openly ... I .. take very seriously the responsibility to treat my public duties in a way that keeps separate church and state ... To me, the core of the Christian faith is humility, which starts with recognizing that you're as fallen as anyone else. And we're all constantly trying to get better, but... so I'm sure I come up short on way too many occasions ... Everyone's certainly entitled in our country to equal treatment regardless of their opinion ... http://www.wane.com/dpp/news/politics/Daniels-talks-candidly-about-his-faith

The intellectual dishonesty in this thread is depressing. The governor argues for separation of church and state, expresses the view that religion shouldn't really be part of political discourse, and says he doesn't think Christians are better than anyone else. Then he adds that he considers religion important for moral purposes and observes (probably correctly) that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were atheists. I think he is wrong to suspect atheism necessarily leads to brutality -- and in fact I expect one could develop something like the Catholics' natural law morality from purely materialistic considerations -- but no one in this thread does anything nearly that interesting: instead, we get the usual garbage, like a snapshot of Hitler in the doorway of a Lutheran church presented as evidence that Hitler was a devout Catholic

[humblebum]

57. All the horrific crimes of the last century were NOT committed

by atheists. What an ignorant thing to say. Hitler was hardly an atheist as some like to say, even though he was an enthusiastic student of Nietzsche's work. He was also a Catholic who eliminated many priests and church laymen who opposed his views and replaced them with some of his own people. But he was also keenly aware of Germany's ancient past when the emperor was the protector and co-leader of the Church during the Carolingian days (the 1st Reich). So I guess one could say he was an amalgum of identities.

Concerning atheism: Communistic atheistic dictators were responsible for the deaths of an estimated 130 million people from 1917-1989. Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hoxha, Ceausescu, etc.. More than all religious wars in all of human history combined. ('The Black Book of Communism...' by Courtois, et al, 'Storming the Heavens, the Soviet League of the Militant Godless'by Peris, 'Godless Communists, Atheism and Society in
Soviet Russia' by Husband, and 'Death by Government' by RJ Rummel).

[rd_kent]

65. Then why in another thread do you state that they are?

One poster responded that all major atrocities were not committed in the name of atheism and you stated

Actually they were largely waged in the name of atheism.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=230862#231042





What changed form that thread to this thread?

[humblebum]

66. Where did I say ALL? I said "largely". No change that I see. nt

[rd_kent]

67. Ok, we can dance around the subject but your stemement implies that MOST was done in

the name of atheism.

Then you go on to only address the communists and SOME of the groups that were anti-religious. That is not LARGELY but any means. So aside form the ONE group you mentioned, what others were done in the name of atheism?

[humblebum]

68. I'll stand by exactly what I said. you are the only one dancing around.

These acts were largely and mostly done by atheists in that name. The bolsheviks and later the Communists openly declared that Scientific Atheism would replace religion at all levels of society and it was in that name that these things were done - through the broadcast media, in print, on billboards, and by atheists under atheistic dictators. It was not to make people communists, because that was not a requirement, but adhering to the policies of institutionalized atheism was required. All communists were atheists but not all atheists were communists. There were more atheists than communists.

[rd_kent]

69. Yeah, yeah, I got it. But you still have not addressed any other groups.

I'm tired of arguing the communism in Russia. I disagree, so lets move on.

What OTHER atrocities were done in the name of atheism? I would expect you to list several as your statement that "all of the atrocities committed were LARGELY done in the name of atheism."

[humblebum]

70. You've got to be kidding. i have given you several references

to back up claims. Thousands of religious structures were leveled. An estimated 20 million Christians were executed. 2 million or so were catholics. Entire villages were starved out for refusing to give up their religious practices. It goes on and on. Stop dancong and start reading. The only religious persecution that even comes close to those numbers are the 60-70 million that died in the Islamic conquests of India, over a period of 800-900 years. What happened under Lenin, Stalin, PolPot, Mao, Hoxha,and Ceausescu etc. was an intense operation to wipe out any religious influence and all within a period of 75 years or so.

[rd_kent]

73. Why do you say in one post that theya re not committed in the name of atheism and in another

you claim they are?

Lets go back to my question. Why the turn around? I even provided you a link to YOUR post for reference.

[humblebum]

72. Listen, I'll tell you what I really think.

I think that neither religion nor the absence of it causes any problems, BUT I do think that human extremism and fanaticism and human failings cause all of the events like the ones addressed over the past couple days. I am anti-radical/militant/new atheism (whatever you want to call it) and I am very anti-religious extremism or fanaticism (whatever you want to call it). An atheist celebrating the solstice or criticising religion does not bother me. Condemnation bothers me no matter what epistemology is used to justify it, and no matter who it comes from.

[caitxrawks]

59. what a douchehole.

Jesus Christ, I want to deck that guy so hard. UGH.

[moobu2]

71. Joseph Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, Saddam Hussein

and all other dictators have one thing in common - they all acquired total absolute political power one way or another, that's the real common factor here, not communism, Christianity, atheism or Islam. If political power ends up in the hands of 1 person and 1 political party with no checks and balances....some bad %^$# can happen no matter what the religious views of that person are. Hitler just happened to be Christian and the German culture had been infused with 1000+ years of anti-Semitism by Christian churches. Once Hitler acquired total power, he simply acted out on all those extreme anti-Semitic views and extreme Christian family values already present in him and the German culture. One of the first things the Nazi's did was to enact extremely harsh punishments for abortion and homosexuality, probably to gain more political support from the churches. Like it or not, the Holocaust could not have happened the way it did without Christianity. As far as Stalin is concerned, I think his persecution of the church had more to do with his perception that it was a political threat. At times, he suppressed the church, at other times, they worked together to suppress other groups.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[moobu2]

74. Catholic clergy involvement with the Ustaše (atrocities and mass murder)

This is a Wikipedia article about the Catholic churches involvement in mass murder, forced conversions and other atrocities in Croatia during WW11. These people were so ruthless, they even shocked the German Nazi's. There's a lot of other information on the web about this with gruesome photo's to awfull to post here. 200+ priests and nuns charged with participating with atrocities were executed, others received long prison sentences.

Catholic clergy involvement with the Ustaša covers the role of the Croatian Catholic Church in the Independent State of Croatia (NDH), a Nazi puppet state created on the territory of Axis-occupied Yugoslavia in 1941. The NDH was controlled by the Ustaše movement.

The creation of the Independent State of Croatia was initially welcomed by the hierarchy of the Catholic Church and by many Catholic priests. Ante Pavelić, the head of the Ustaša, was anti-Serb and pro-Catholic, viewing Catholicism as an integral part of Croat culture.<1> Cornwell views the "ancient loyalties to the papacy going back thirteen hundred years" as one of the historical legacies that "underpinned the formation of the NDH" along with Catholic Croat resentment against Orthodox Serbs.<2>
For the Ustaša, "relations with the Vatican were as important as relations with Germany" because Vatican recognition was the key to widespread Croat support.<1> Ante Pavelić was received in a private papal audience in Rome in May 1941, just after becoming dictator of Croatia.<3> According to Phayer, "after receiving a papal blessing in 1941, Ante Pavelić and his Ustaša lieutenants unleashed an unspeakable genocide in their new country".<4> However, Pius XII refused to cut diplomatic ties with the Ustaša regime and met Pavelić again in 1943.<4> Pius XII was criticized for his reception of Pavelić: an unattributed British Foreign Office memo on the subject described Pius XII as "the greatest moral coward of our age."<5> For their part, the Vatican hoped the Ustaša would defeat Communism and reconvert many of the 200,000 who had left the Catholic Church for the Serbian Orthodox Church since World War I.<1>

Role in Ustaše violence

(photo) Execution of prisoners at the Jasenovac concentration camp, run by Franciscan Miroslav Filipović<6><9>

It is well-known that many Catholic clergy members participated directly or indirectly in Ustaša campaigns of violence, as is attested to in the work of Corrado Zoli (Italian) and Evelyn Waugh (English).<10> The most notorious example is that of Franciscan Miroslav Filipović, known as "the devil of Jasenovac" for running the Jasenovac concentration camp, where estimates of the number killed range between 49,600 and 600,000.<6><9><11>
Ivan Šarić is believed to have been the "worst" of the Catholic bishops who supported the Ustaša; his diocesan newspaper wrote: "there is no limit to love. The movement of liberation of the world from the Jews is a movement for the renewal of human dignity. Omniscient and omnipotent God stands behind this movement".<7> Bishop Šarić also appropriated Jewish property for his own use.<7>
Some Catholic priests even served in the personal bodyguard of Pavelić, including Ivan Guberina, a leader of the Croatian Catholic movement, a form of Catholic Action.<6> Another, Bozidas Bralo, was the chief of the security police in Sarajevo, who initiated many antisemitic actions.<6> In order to consolidate the Ustashe party power, much of the party work in Bosnia and Herzegovina Jure Francetić (an Ustaše Commissioner of this province), was put in the hands of Catholic priests.<12>
One Catholic priest, Mate Mugos wrote that clergy should put down the prayer book and take up the revolver.<6> Another, Dyonisy Juricev, wrote in the Novi list that to kill seven-year-olds was not a sin.<6>
Phayer argues that "establishing the fact of genocide in Croatia prior to the Holocaust carries great historical weight for our study because Catholics were the perpetrators and not, as in Poland, the victims".<13>

Forced conversions

As Pavelić's government cracked down on the Orthodox Serbs, along with the Jewish, Muslim, and Protestant Germanic minorities, the Catholic clergy took steps to encourage Orthodox Serbs to convert to Catholicism.<14> By July 14, 1941—"anticipating its selective conversion policy and eventual goal of genocide"—the Croatian Ministry of Justice instructed the Croatian episcopate that "priests or schoolmasters or, in a word, any of the intelligentisa—including rich Orthodox tradesmen and artisans" should not be admitted.<15> Those that were pre-rejected from the "coming program of enforced conversion" were deported and killed, although many that converted met the same fate.<16>
In addition, Catholic Croats appropriated many churches that were "vacated or requisitioned" from the Orthodox Serbs.<16> The Catholic episcopate and HKP, the Croatian branch of Catholic Action, a lay organization, were involved in the coordination and administration of these policies.<16>

Role of the Vatican

According to historian Michael Phayer, "it is impossible to believe that Stepianic and the Vatican did not know that the Ustasha murders amounted to genocide".<9> Cornwell considers the Catholic involvement important because of: "the Vatican's knowledge of the atrocities, Pacelli's failure to use his good offices to intervene, and the complicity it represented in the Final Solution being planned in northern Europe".<2>
Pius XII was a long-standing supported of Croat nationalism; he hosted a national pilgrimate to Rome in November 1939, for the cause of the canonization of Nicola Tavelic, and largely "confirmed the Ustashe perception of history".<14> In a meeting with Primate Stepinac, Pius XII reiterated the epithet of Pope Leo X, that the Croats were "the outpost of Christianity", a term which itself implied that the Orthodox Serbs were not Christians.<14> Pius XII foretold to Stepinac that:
"The hope of a better future seems to be smling on you, a future in which the relations between Church and State in your country will be regulated in harmonious action to the advantage of both".<14> etc...

Vatican "ratlines"

According to Phayer, "at the end of the war, the leaders of the Ustasha movement, including its clerical supporters such as Bishop Saric, fled the country, taking gold looted from massacred Jews and Serbs with them to Rome".<24>
Pope Pius XII protected Ante Pavelić after World War II, gave him "refuge in the Vatican properties in Rome", and assisted in his flight to South America; Pavelić and Pius XII shared the goal of a Catholic state in the Balkans and were unified in their opposition to the rising Communist state under Tito.<25> Pius XII also believed that Pavelić and other war criminals could not get a fair trial in Yugoslavia.<26> After arriving in Rome in 1946, Pavelić used the Vatican "ratline" to reach Argentina in 1948, along with other Ustaša,<25> Russian, Yugoslav, Italian, and American spies and agents all tried to apprehend Pavelić in Rome but the Vatican refused all cooperation and vigorously defended its extraterritorial status.<3> Pavelić was never captured or tried for his crimes.<25>
According to Phayer, "the Vatican's motivation for harboring Pavelić grew in lockstep with its apprehension about Tito's treatment of the church".<27>
Dozens of Croatian refugees and war criminals were housed in the Pontifical Croatian College of St. Jerome in Rome.<27> Intelligence reports differed over the location of Pavelić himself.<27> Counter Intelligence Corps agent William Gowen (the son of Franklin Gowen, a US diplomat in the Vatican) was one of those tasked with finding Pavelić; although the CIC hoped the relationship would reveal Pavelić's location, eventually the reverse occurred and the Vatican convinced the US to back off.<28> By the Spring of 1947, the Vatican was putting intense diplomatic pressure on the US and the UK not to extradite Ustaša war criminals to Yugoslavia.<29>
Special Agent Gowen warned in 1947 that, due to Pavelić's record of opposing the Orthodox Church as well as Communism, his "contacts are so high and his present position is so compromising to the Vatican, that any extradition of the subject would be a staggering blow to the Roman Catholic Church".<30> The feared embarrassment of the Church was not due to Pavelić's use of the Vatican "ratline" (which Pavelić at this point, still hoping to return, had not yet committed to using), but rather due to the facts the Vatican believed would be revealed in Pavelić's eventual trial.<31>


A lot more info at Wikipedia and elsewhere

[Laura902]

76. What a MORON!

what infuriates me is that A LOT of Americans are like him. He's a disturbing intolerant imbecile just like so many religious conservatives