Corporal Punishment for Children

[Why Syzygy]

Poll question: Corporal Punishment for Children

All options refer to children of any age group.

http://www.answers.com/corporal
adjective

Of or relating to the human body: bodily, corporeal, fleshly, personal, physical, somatic.


Corporal punishment is the deliberate infliction of pain intended to punish a person or change his/her behavior. Historically speaking, most forms of punishment, whether in judicial, domestic, or educational settings, were corporal in basis. Corporal punishment is still widely approved by parents in the United States<1>, but as of 2008 it has been legally banned in 23 countries. These bans are mostly of recent date.<2>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_punishment


http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanking_menu.htm
The Issue:

When we wrote the original version of this essay in 1995, it started with the prediction: "The restriction of parents hitting their children is expected to become one of the main topics of debate between religious conservatives and liberals during the next decade." This appears to be coming to pass.

[saltpoint]

1. I'm a half-assed poly-agnostic and I think corporal punishiment is wrong.

[Occam Bandage]

2. Lance Corporal Punishment for Children got promoted? I suppose he deserves it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Corporal punishment just doesn't seem to work

When I taught in public school in the 70s, it was considered strange that I rarely paddled anyone. It just didn't seem to work. Later in my career, paddling was not allowed, and I really didn't see that much change in behavior--those kiddos who were wild and socially out of bounds in the 70s were wild and socially out of bounds in the 90s. I really don't know what one can do with some people--sadly, sometimes there are cases where nothing will help.

[customerserviceguy]

9. By the 1970's

paddling was used so little, that it really didn't have any measurable deterrent effect. Now, back in Catholic school in the 1960's, then it meant something!

[Why Syzygy]

12. I was swatted

in first grade for coming in late from recess and getting a drink from the water fountain. A few of us didn't realize the class had gone inside.

In second grade because I had trouble staying in my seat.

In third grade because of rowdy play in the play yard. I think. Don't remember exactly.

In fourth grade because I turned around in my seat to look at the kid sitting behind me. It wasn't a test.

In fifth grade, we had a male teacher who had five sons and loved little girls. He never hit us.

Public school, 1960's.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. I went to public school in the 50s and 60s

My first grade teacher taped the mouths shut of some talkative boys, and my fifth grade teacher made a boy who cussed eat soap. But for the life of me, I don't remember anyone getting paddled.

[customerserviceguy]

17. I think it was, pardon the expression, "hit or miss".

Now the nuns would smack you for damn near anything, but when I got to public school in the third grade, you really had to deserve it. (Yeah, I found that out in the third grade - twice - and in the fourth and fifth grades. Seventh, too)

But that was in Indiana, and I didn't see it used again when my family moved to Washington. There were a hell of a lot of bullies, and they knew they could get away with things, so they did. I actually got into a hall fight my junior year with one of them because he was picking on one of my smaller, skinnier, nerdier friends for his lunch money. When we got to the principal's office, I stated my case with such moral indignation that the bully backed down, and I was sent back to class.

Of course, I had just been in the principal's office the previous week, having been recognized as one of my class's top five percent on the PSAT. And the bully ended up doing life in prison for killing a man after we got out of the school. Too bad Mike didn't have the paddling he needed in the lower grades like I did!

[Donnachaidh]

21. in the 60's it emotionally scarred the children

And at least one nun I knew of seemed to get a very real joy out of beating the kids - BEATING, not spanking. Open handed, closed fist - whatever. Especially the boys.

Special place in hell for her and her sisters who beat children with paddles, pointers and anything else they could get their evil hands on.

[customerserviceguy]

26. For anyone reading this, who wants a taste of what it was like

Go rent the DVD of "Doubt" when it hits the video stores. Scarily authentic!

I think that there was a counter-reaction to the sadistic discipline of children that swung the pendulum too far in the other direction. Somewhere between beating kids for the fun of it, and letting them run around like squirrels in the park, there's the happy medium of being an authority figure to a child. You establish that physically in the pre-school years, and then you maintain it with non-corporal discipline in the school-age years.

It's very, very hard to get control again once it is lost. When my son was three, my ex and I divorced, and she let him get completely out of control. Ten years later, I went for his custody after it was crystal clear that he was heading for juvenile hall. My second wife and I worked extremely hard to get him on track, one of the conditions imposed on us was that we were not allowed to use physical discipline. I did get heavily into his face a few times, though.

Today, he's a great young man, married to a wonderful woman, and in the ten years since he's left my home, I think he's earned more money than I have! He manages an auto parts store, works for UPS in the evenings, and goes to school in between all of that. He treats his wife with uncommon respect, and is happy and well-adjusted. However, my second wife and I had him outnumbered, I have no idea what a single parent with two or three hellions would do if they didn't establish control and authority from the get-go.

[Smarmie Doofus]

4. I 've never hit my kid but....

... I can't say that in EVERY conceivable instance it is indefensible.

I'm agnostic. On this and many other issues.

[Demeter]

5. There Is a Time and Place for Everything

but too many people cannot do nuance. Hence, a bunch of completely undisciplined children and a deteriorating society, and parents wringing their hands.

And laws regarding parent-child relations and parenting techniques.

[rrneck]

6. What does

religion have to do with corporal punishment?

If you have a problem with a coworker, when is it ever a good idea to hit them? If truth be told, most people don't do it because they are afraid they'll get their ass whipped. If it's not okay to hit an adult, why is it okay to hit the smallest and weakest members of society? If you can't out think a kid, you shouldn't have one.

[Why Syzygy]

7. A lot.

Spanking in the Bible:

The phrase "spare the rod and spoil the child" is often incorrectly attributed to the Christian Bible. It does not appear there. It was first written in a poem by Samuel Butler in 1664. 1

Corporal punishment is strongly recommended in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). Most of the biblical quotations advocating corporal punishment of children appear in the book of Proverbs. Christians interpret these passages in different ways:

Religious conservatives generally believe that the book of Proverbs was assembled by King Solomon, circa 1000 BCE. He brought together a group of sayings which were already current in his time; some may have been his own thoughts; others may have been first written down centuries earlier. 2 The passages which deal with spanking presumably reflect his parenting beliefs with respect to his son, Rehoboam.

Religious liberals generally believe that Solomon first introduced "ancient oriental 'wisdom' to Israel and it later became customary to attribute all books belonging to this particular literary genre to him. The actual authors of Proverbs were the successive generations of wisdom teachers (or 'wise men') who had charge of the moral and practical training of young men of the court and upper classes...." King Hezekiah is mentioned in Proverbs 25:1. Thus, Proverbs in its current form, cannot date from earlier than than his reign in the 8th century BCE. It may have been assembled as late as the 4th century BCE. 3

The following quotations come from the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible:
Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes (diligently)."
Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."
Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel)."
Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."

An additional verse from the New Testament is occasionally cited as justification for physical punishment of children:

Hebrews 12:6-7: "...the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he accepts as a son. Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?"

From our study of conservative Protestant books on child-raising, and the content of numerous radio programs on Christian radio stations, it appears that many Fundamentalist and other Evangelical Christians equate "punishment" and "discipline" with "corporal punishment." But it is not clear whether the discipline, referred to at the end of this New Testament verse, refers to corporal punishment or to some other form of correction (e.g. removal of privileges).

http://www.religioustolerance.org/spankin8.htm

*Note on Prov 23:14: The word "Shoel" is more accurately translated "grave". Obviously beating does not deliver one from death.

[rrneck]

14. Given my iconoclastic nature

the verses to which you refer just give me another reason to chuck the Bible straight out the window as anything approaching a guide for right living.

Having said that, I will confess that I have also often said that if I were stranded on a desert island and I could have only one book, the Bible would probably be it. It hasn't been around for thousands of years for nothing and if one approaches it with the proper mindset it can be quite illuminating I expect. But using it as an excuse to beat anyone, much less someone smaller and weaker than yourself ain't one of them.

[customerserviceguy]

10. You reason with a co-worker

and if you cannot, and it is ultimately the fault of that co-worker, they lose their jobs. Is deprivation of a livelihood (along with possibly having a reputation that prevents you from getting another one) really all that different from a momentary smack on the butt when you run out into the street at three years old?

If it is, then it is so because the effects of lack of discipline as a child will manifest themselves in adults, causing them to have dysfunctional lives for not learning to control their impulses when it was still a teachable moment.

[rrneck]

11. If I read you right

hitting a coworker can cost you your job. Should hitting a child cost you your job as a parent?

Exactly how hard or how long do you have to hit a kid before it becomes child abuse anyway? I'm asking because I really don't know.

[customerserviceguy]

16. What I was trying to say

was that we use reason to deal with adults (who can usually be reasoned with), and we use mild physical punishment to deal with children. Generally, if you've done enough of it when the child is at the pre-school stage, you have someone that you can reason with at a later age.

When physical punishment results in something that can be seen the next day, then it's gone too far.

[JerseygirlCT]

30. I disagree

You can reason with children, as well. Physical punishment is no more a good thing when it comes from a parent as when it comes from anyone else: it's not acceptable.

Children don't really learn by being beat. They don't learn the reasons "why". All they pick up is "don't do that, or dad will hit me". Once dad is no longer there to hit, or they're big enough not to care, you haven't managed to instill the reason for avoiding certain behavior in the first place.

We certainly reasoned with ours as soon as they were verbal - maybe a little before. (And mine started talking very early - and never stopped, lol). It took more time. It could be frustrating on both sides. But in the end, you've got small people who understand things who grow into big people who understand things.

[JerseygirlCT]

31. I liked this:

"If you can't out think a kid, you shouldn't have one."

Though I've felt pretty close to the line sometimes. I think my small one might be developing legal skills, lol. By the time he's a teen, I'm going to have my hands - or brain - filled!

[rrneck]

32. LOL

I'm not a parent, so it's sorta not fair for me to pontificate too much on raising children. I just figure it's not right to hit people smaller than you are.

But I have siblings and friends with kids and I get a grandstand look at the challenges raising them pose. It sure ain't easy. I have a lot of respect for anybody that can pull off the job of parenting whether they spank their kids or not.

A kid will keep you honest, no doubt about it.

l'enfant terrible
1 a: a child whose inopportune remarks cause embarrassment b: a person known for shocking remarks or outrageous behavior
2: a usually young and successful person who is strikingly unorthodox, innovative, or avant-garde

[customerserviceguy]

8. Atheist who wished that the misbehaving children

at the restaurant the other night (the four year old even went across the room to stand on an unoccupied table!) had gotten some fanny swacks long before they crossed my path.

My lady was getting livid, she's never had children, and I had enough beer in me to anethetize me somewhat. I calmed her down by suggesting that she mention something to the waitress (who was totally ineffective at getting the "parents" to do much of anything besides bribe with ice cream), and by assuring her that in ten years, the kids will no doubt be in the juvenile court system.

[Why Syzygy]

15. You are assuming

that the children don't get fanny whacks. Misbehavior is not an indication either way. They may be terribly abused at home and only get to act out in public. We really don't know from just that evidence.

I do sympathize with frustration of the public displays of misbehavior, though. I saw kids running around the garden center, one of them throwing rocks at other customers, while their dad sat in a lawn chair, oblivious. I don't know what the solution is for those instances, other than appeal to management. I certainly would have in that restaurant. It is very likely to lose customers if that's the scene they have to endure.

ETA: In the case of the garden center, the kid threw rocks at my male companion. He turned around with a stern look, and said, "Don't do that!". The kid ran away in terror. Young children are very sensitive to loud noises. Even a sharp voice will frighten them. I used faces and tones of voice with my son when he was very young. He didn't need a slap. Children WANT approval.

[customerserviceguy]

18. Oh, hell

they didn't even get spoken to sharply when it was OBVIOUS that they were so far out of line. Chasing each other through the restaurant while Father and Mother Superior were completely oblivious.

I don't blame the restaurant for being slow to act, even though the hostess who assisted the four year old down from the table mouthed something about "helping him to avoid being hurt". They cannot afford to alienate that many customers, there were only about three tables occupied out of the twenty or so that Thursday night.

My lady got the day manager on the phone the next day, and he offered her a $30 gift card as a recompense. That's my Steph, she is the customer service genie, and she knows how to get results!

[JerseygirlCT]

28. I witnessed something similar recently

and it was as if the parents expected that since they were paying to eat out, the restaurant's staff was supposed to care for their small children. It WAS dangerous; the little ones (maybe 2, 3?) were running around the restaurant. One waiter with hot food who couldn't see them, and you'd have had a really bad accident. But la-dee-dah from the parents. As in the situation you bring up, the staff did their darndest, but in the end, the kids are going to respond to their parents...

[JerseygirlCT]

27. And attention

That's usually the missing factor, not whacks on the fanny.

Almost every time I've seen out of control kids, I've seen out of touch parents. Or those who simply cannot believe their little darling is capable of any less than exemplary behavior.

I'm not saying that even the kids of terrific, involved parents don't misbehave. It happens. But when it does, it's dealt with. And that doesn't have to include physical punishment.

Like you, a sharp word, or even a raised eyebrow, became enough of a signal to mine to cut it out. In most cases, mine were amenable to reason, once they were able to control themselves enough to listen.

I don't think there's a reason to hit a child, ever. To me, that's laziness. Can it be easier to hit someone rather than talk to them, and institute some consequences they won't like? Absolutely. But it's not nearly as effective in the long term.

[SheilaT]

19. Some of the comments here are interesting

because "discipline" always equals hitting or other physical punishment in the minds of some.

One of the things I learned as a parent was that getting physical with my younger son was always counter-productive. When I managed him in other ways his behavior improved. Those who try to reason with a two year old are idiots, but you still don't have to spank them. You establish natural and logical consequences for bad behavior, and pay a LOT of attention to good behavior and eventually you'll have a kid who grows up to be a decent adult.

When we were going through a very difficult time with the above-mentioned son, he never once neglected to say "please" and "thank you", and never once told me he hated me. I'm still amazed at that. But maybe always saying please and thank you to him, and trying to treat him with dignity and respect from the very beginning made a difference.

[Why Syzygy]

20. Bingo.

Dignity and respect, and requiring the same. Admitting error, and requiring same.

Consequences should be taught. Hitting actually bypasses those learning experiences.
Allowing choices is the only way to teach responsibility; and many parents won't allow their children to make decisions.

[JerseygirlCT]

29. I think kids treated with dignity learn to treat others the same

way.

Now, mine may very well neglect a please or thank you from time to time. But I've rarely seen them treat someone else unkindly. They're often the first to insist on including others, or to see something from another's point of view.

I do think you can reason with a two year old though. You just have to speak in 2 yo language. And usually at first you have to start with a "no" or "yes". But we usually talked through all sorts of things, and why did or did not like some behavior, and why it's not a good thing to do (or is). Teaching empathy at a very early age really pays off later on, I've found.

[struggle4progress]

22. "People learn what they live" -- When people are smacked around, they learn

violence as a way to resolve problems

[Why Syzygy]

23. That is frequently the case.

But, some of us do stop the chain of violence, at least for a generation. Worse still, it confuses love and trust with violence and pain, not so easy to escape.

[moggie]

24. It's illegal in many countries

Corporal punishment in schools is illegal pretty much throughout Europe, and in the home it's illegal in a number of countries, including all of Scandinavia. These countries have failed to descend into anarchy.

[Why Syzygy]

25. Exactly.

This topic is close to home at the moment. My son and DIL are having the debate, with the little one due to arrive in about six weeks. She is a from a Scandinavian country, where it was outlawed in the 1980s. Even though my son was not spanked, I'm afraid he has succumbed to (what I consider) disinformation from his church. I pray he comes to his senses. Plus, I continue to write emails. They confided in me, so it's only my duty. ;)

[ZombieHorde]

33. I kick children, .... I mean threads, I kick threads. nt

[Why Syzygy]

34. Timely

:applause:

[Odin2005]

35. I'm an atheist and I think corporal punishment is CHILD ABUSE.

If you have to resort of spanking or belting your kid to keep him/her in line you are a bad parent.

[kwassa]

36. More than 200,000 kids spanked at school

More than 200,000 kids spanked at school

(and you can guess where, just check out this map)

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/20/corporal.punishment/#cnnSTCOther1

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/08/20/corporal.punishment/

Overall, 223,190 students received corporal punishment in 2006-07, according to the Department of Education statistics. That number is down from 342,038 students in 2000-01 as more and more districts abolished corporal punishment.

The punishment is disproportionately applied to black students, according to the organizations. During the 2006-07 school year, for instance, black students made up 17.1 percent of the nationwide student population but 35.6 percent of those paddled at schools.

Black girls were paddled at twice the rate of their white counterparts in the 13 states using corporal punishment most frequently. And although boys are punished more often than girls, the report found that African-American students in general are 1.4 times more likely to receive corporal punishment.

[iris27]

37. As someone who grew up in the mid-80s, and was hit casually and fairly often,

and threatened with worse (my father thought it great fun to buy a bullwhip at Silver Dollar City and joke about the way he intended to put it to use), I just think there has to be a better way.

[frogmarch]

38. I'm an atheist who

has grown children and grown grandchildren. Neither my husband nor I ever used corporal punishment on our three kids (two sons and one daughter), and our kids didn't use it on their kids, who in turn will likely never use it on theirs.

[bamacrat]

39. I graduated high school in 2001 and got paddled my senior year.

During my time in school K-12 I received probably around 50 paddlings, 99% of which were for excessive talking and acting out in class. I was always very liked by all my teachers and was never rude or violent never fought just talked and they paddled the hell out of me. Eh, dont know if it did anything other than embarrass me for five minutes then I forgot about it. I think corporal punishment is good in extreme situations but just as a default punishment it really doesnt do any good.

[Deep13]

42. *delete*

[Dogmudgeon]

40. Jordan Riak's Project NoSpank

Sorry I'm pressed for time today and can't leave a substantial comment, but I've found this site to be an excellent source of information:

Jordan Riak's Project NoSpank

Alice Miller's classic http://www.nospank.net/fyog.htm">For Your Own Good is available in its entirety. And Riak's http://www.nospank.net/pt2009.htm">Plain Talk About Spanking is the first thing available on the NoSpank website (and updated each year).

--d!

[Deep13]

41. I am of no faith (thanks for asking) ...

...and reject most corporal punishment. I think a light swat on the rear may be necessary to keep very young children in line sometimes, but that is it.