The United States of America is not a Christian Nation.

[SidneyCarton]

We've all heard it before. When a Hindu was called in to give the invocation before the Senate, there was an uproar. When Representative Keith Ellison, the first Muslim to be elected to Congress, chose to be sworn in on the Qu'ran (yes, I realize that it was mostly a stunt, Congressmen don't have to be sworn in on anything) there was outrage and horror. Somehow it has sunk into the American psyche that our nation was founded on Christianity, instead of being founded and settled by people who happened to be, for the most part, Christians. Interestingly enough, when one searches through the founding documents of our nation, one finds no assertion that we are a "Christian Nation" What we find instead is interesting, consider the following:

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." (The Declaration of Independence)

"The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." (U. S. Constitution, Article VI)

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." (The First Amendment)

First off, the Christian God is never implicitly mentioned anywhere in these documents. There is an invocation of a Creator, which runs in line with the Deist beliefs of many of the Founders. Hence, whatever the founders may or may not have intended for our nation, they never wrote into our foundational laws an integral Christian identity. That said, they cannot have been said to have written in a strictly secular foundation to our nation either. Instead, the arguments for religious equality and nondiscrimination placed in our founding documents imply the intention of founding this nation from the beginning as a multi-confessional state, without preference for any particular system of belief.

However, such a system is problematic as the very religions for which the state claims equal toleration do not always accord that same privilege to each other. Furthermore, Atheists refuse to characterize their lack of religious belief as a religion and therefore complicate their position within a supposed multi-confessional state. If Atheism is not a religion, how then does it fit within a multi-confessional system? The answer, of course, is that while our founding documents do not necessarily lay out a strictly secular state, practice has shown it to be the only way to achieve anything approaching an impartial toleration of all forms of belief. Hence, despite the arguments of the religious right, we are not a Christian nation by custom, but a secular state. Were we otherwise, democracy in America would be unsustainable.

[T Wolf]

1. Unfortunately, many millions believe that it is. My own FiL has said that I do not belong in

his country.

Facts do not matter in this argument. Religion and the bigotry that spews from it are faith-based and cannot be debated.

The only thing that matters in this issue is who has the power to impose their view on the population.

[SidneyCarton]

10. The only thing that matters is that the laws of the land are enforced and interpreted

in accordance with the founding documents of the nation. This nation wasn't founded on the Bible, it was founded on the Constitution. Hence, the necessity of a return to civics education for our children. They need to know that they can believe whatever they want to, but that by law, they must allow their fellow man to do the same.

[Deja Q]

2. With American companies doing unChristian things, I'm compelled to agree.

Especially when Republican politicians, claiming to be Christian, fully supported their actions.

[Sinistrous]

3. Well said. Thank you.

[FudaFuda]

4. secular state, yes ...

The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion….

—U.S. Treaty with Tripoli, 1797

[Strong Atheist]

32. Welcome to DU!

:toast:

[trotsky]

5. "instead of being founded and settled by people who happened to be, for the most part, Christians"

Most of the Founders would be properly classified as Deists, not Christians.

[SidneyCarton]

8. The founders were a mixed lot.

The majority of them were Deists, which I note in the OP. Patrick Henry was a fundie, and there are strong arguments that Jefferson, and perhaps several others were at the very least Agnostics, if not outright Atheists.

That said, I think it can be argued that a majority of the settlers and immigrants to the United States up until the middle of the 20th Century were nominally, if not practicing Christians.

[trotsky]

12. I used your exact quote for my Subject.

"instead of being founded and settled by people who happened to be, for the most part, Christians"

I read that as implying the group of people who founded the country were, for the most part, Christians. There is no doubt most of the settlers were. Just wanted to clarify.

[RaleighNCDUer]

19. Thomas Paine -

little doubt that he was an atheist.

[SidneyCarton]

20. Thanks, I had forgotten about Paine.

I had to read "The Making of the English Working Class" this Quarter, and E.P. Thompson gives considerable time to discussing Paine's work with the English Jacobins.

[timtom]

6. "The United States of America is not a Christian Nation."

You can say that again!

[liberal N proud]

7. All those license plates say it's one nation under god

:rofl:

[SidneyCarton]

9. And they never say which one.

It could be one nation under Yog-Sohoth, or Cthuthu, or the FSM if you so wish, or it could be Allah, Jehovah, or Ahura Mazda if you prefer.

[liberal N proud]

11. There lies the joke

on the fundamentalist who all insist that phrase belongs on all our cars.

[MineralMan]

23. If I had to choose a deity under duress,

I do believe I would choose Ahura Mazda. It's such a great name, and Zoroastrianism has such a nice ring to it.

I do wish Mazda would name one of it's vehicles the "Ahura." I'd buy a Mazda Ahura in a heartbeat, just for the sheer humor of it.

[SidneyCarton]

25. Zoroastrianism is a fascinating faith, or which I do not know enough to truly discuss.

I do know, however that it has strongly influenced the Abrahamic religions, particularly Judaism, and by descent, Christianity. That said, were I not a Mormon, I would probably end up a Discordian, it appeals to the sardonic smart-ass in me.

[MineralMan]

26. Actually few people really understand Zoroastrianism

these days. It's pretty much a dead religion, having been supplanted by Judaism and Christianity, which may owe Zorastrianism a great debt.

Oddly enough, though, when I was a young man, studying the religions of the world, it was Zoroastrianism and its parental sort of relationship to Judaism and Christianity that informed my eventual atheism.

I posed that conundrum to several theologians during that period, including a couple of prominent ones. They had no satisfactory answers, which led me to believe that all religions are cultural artifacts. Once that was clear in my mind, it became impossible to believe any longer that any supernatural entities existed. Truly, it grew more and more clear to me that man creates deities in his own image, rather than the converse.

I've found, over the years, that most serious atheists have gone through a similar process in arriving at their disbelief. Often, if you want a good discussion on religion, consulting an atheist will give you pretty good one. Either that or an academic theologian. They're fun, too, when you want a good discussion of religious beliefs.

[elshiva]

30. Aren't there still Zoroastrians in India and Iran nowadays?

Not a lot, but a small community?

[MineralMan]

31. Yes, there are, but I don't know how many.

I'd love to talk to someone who follows that religion. So far, I've never met anyone, so all my information comes from reading.

[Jamastiene]

13. Too bad our elected leaders don't know that.

They are constantly stumbling all over themselves to out-"Christian" each other (and by that, I don't mean Christian by beliefs, but "Christian" by pretense just to win elections)

I wish our elected leaders would learn that for the sake of the country's future.

Great OP, btw. K&R

[SidneyCarton]

14. In fairness to our leaders, as politicians they respond to the electorate.

And the American electorate has shown an interesting reluctance to elect non-christians for the most part. Hence our sole Muslim congressman, our smattering of Jewish legislators and our lack of Atheists in high political office.

In general though, our political class remains sadly homogenous: white, male, upper class, and usually Protestant (Though Catholics have made a strong inroads in recent years.) Look at the Senate, we have one black senator, only a few women, and only a few Latinos, do these demographics even begin to reflect America? Regardless of reality, the idea of the WASPy leader is still ingrained in our minds. Hence Pres. Obama is such a massive deviation from our former norm, we will see if he is a harbinger of things to come, or merely a historical aberration.

[TechBear_Seattle]

15. Many early settlers came to the New World to found a Christian society, yes

That was why the Puritans came and founded New England, that was the visions that William Penn and the Society of Friends had for Pennsylvania, that was the hope of the Catholics who fled persecution in England to settle Maryland.

BUT

The United States of America, as designed by the Founders and as delineated by the Constitution, was not.

This distinction is apparently too fine for most Americans to grasp.

[Jamastiene]

16. The way I always understood it was that they fled their

homelands to be able to have their religion without any government telling them how. Now, America is on its way to telling everyone how and what religion. Either way, it's screwed up.

[TechBear_Seattle]

17. Same difference

:hi:

The Puritans wanted to have a society where THEIR religion was the one that issued the orders, and the Quakers had a lot of social engineering plans. The Established Church prevented these groups from furthering their dreams.

[sakabatou]

18. And I here that we're a Christian nation a lot on other boards

Why can't people read the Treaty of Tripoli?

[SidneyCarton]

21. The Treaty of Tripoli lays it out pretty clearly, doesn't it?

Unfortunately, it is a bit obscure. (How many American's, except Marines, even know that we fought a war against the Barbary States?)

[sakabatou]

22. I learned that in... 7th or 8th grade

[SidneyCarton]

24. Congratulations! You paid attention.

You have earned the gratitude of middle school history teachers across the nation, and the horrific sorrow of realizing that you are truly one of the very very few who actually did.

[kwassa]

27. from the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli .... SING EVERYBODY!

From the Halls of Montezuma
To the Shores of Tripoli;
We fight our country's battles
In the air, on land and sea;
First to fight for right and freedom
And to keep our honor clean;
We are proud to claim the title
of United States Marine.

Our flag's unfurled to every breeze
From dawn to setting sun;
We have fought in ev'ry clime and place
Where we could take a gun;
In the snow of far-off Northern lands
And in sunny tropic scenes;
You will find us always on the job--
The United States Marines.

Here's health to you and to our Corps
Which we are proud to serve
In many a strife we've fought for life
And never lost our nerve;
If the Army and the Navy
Ever look on Heaven's scenes;
They will find the streets are guarded
By United States Marines.

[sakabatou]

28. As we say on FSTDT...

"Treaty of Tripoli, bitch!"

[JerseygirlCT]

29. You're preaching to the choir, brother

But it's always good to hear, anyway.

[MedleyMisty]

33. Actually, it seems that about 25% of Americans are Deists like the founders

http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Briefs/AmericaDeistNation.htm

Also, this is an old study but I've found it useful to some ideas I'm formulating at the moment.

http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/64873/?type=blog - that particular article is of course slanted one way, but you can find essays about the same study on Christians sites presented with the Christian POV. Here's the source. http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/16-teensnext-gen/94-a-new-generation-expresses-its-skepticism-and-frustration-with-christianity

[jody]

34. Still over 75% of U.S. adult say they are Christians. n/t

[moggie]

35. Not the point

64% of US adults are overweight. While this does mean that, in one sense, one could refer to the US as a "fat nation", that doesn't mean that the government should be run on pro-obesity lines: congresspeople sworn in on a Big Mac, laws against vegans holding office, and the pledge of allegiance rewritten to include "...with liberty and pizza for all".

[Evoman]

36. To live in a world where you aren't judged by the fake ass bullshit you believe.

People rallying around religion, to me, is like people rallying around belief of fucking leprechauns, or who is the best star-trek captain, or even football teams.

Grow the fuck up, humanity.

[Surrealist_Me]

37. Leprechauns

that "have power over EVERYTHING and are always watching and know all of your thoughts."