i have always believed that Abraham and Mohamed were Schizophrenic. here is an interesting >link>>

[sam sarrha]

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9425

this is interesting too http://users.skynet.be/sky50779/mohammed.htm

Schizophrenia is genetic and both Abraham and Mohamed were related, the story of Abraham being told by an god to kill his son should remove any doubt, today being told to kill your children by god is a certain diagnosis for Schizophrenia...

if this is true, will it ever catch on and eventually free us from the insanity of religion...?

[panader0]

1. Abe said where do you want this killing done?

God said out on highway 61.............Dylan

[sam sarrha]

2. in the 70's i as a research tech at mental hospitals. every ward had a Dylan record on auto return

[Warpy]

3. A lot of religious movements were fueled by ergotism, too

which is a form of temporary schizophrenia. I realized the first time I tried LSD where all those carvings on Gothic cathedrals came from: gargoyles to cabbage roses on grape vines, I saw them all.

Back in the 60s when the state mental health systems were funded and running, a sure way to find yourself locked up for three weeks and talking to men in white coats was to claim you were getting direct messages from god. Now you're left out on the street to vote Republican.

Now I'm not suggesting that ordinary mainstream believers are nuts, far from it. However, the religious extremism down through the ages has definitely been described in the DSMIV.

I'm not going to hazard a guess about either Abraham or Mohammad. Both were certainly at least temporarily bonkers. However, both provided a great deal of reform of a lot of the truly brutal tribal stuff that was going on during their times. Perhaps they did good things with episodes of ergotism or non lethal funny mushroom poisoning.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. You are taking what is said in the Bible literally, then

Not perhaps as a compilation of oral tradition stories passed down in a certain way to give a group an identity. The Abraham story was one that was made dramatic in the mythic traditions of the time--the point being to explain why the Jews did not use human sacrifice, something that was done in the area before the Jewish tradition caught on. If one looks at the Bible as an historic relic and remembers that Hebrew, as Aramaic, has many levels of meaning and is full of analogies, it takes on a different meaning. Religion is, to me, the outward expression of the evolution of human consciousness.

Religion, like any doctrine, is as sane or as insane as the people who practice it.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. Yes, a lot of the stories in the Bible are explanations after the fact

The story of Abraham almost sacrificing Isaac is, as Ayeshahaqqiqa points out, almost certainly an orally transmitted story aimed at explaining why the Jews were one of the few groups in that region who didn't practice human sacrifice.

The story of Abraham also "explains" why Arabic and Hebrew are such closely related languages, with Jews being the descendants of Isaac and the Arabs being descendants of his half-brother Ishmael.

[sam sarrha]

7. could be he was Schitzophrenic and halucinated it... too

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/women/andrea_yates/index.html
In less than an hour that morning, five children had all been drowned, and the responding officers were deeply affected.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/10/bond_set_for_woman_accused_of.html
Bond set for woman accused of drowning her two daughters

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2007/10/woman_who_nearly_drowned_kids.html
Woman who nearly drowned kids gets prison

http://www.alphecca.com/?p=717
Woman Drowns Two Children, Self

[Meshuga]

8. That's an interesting take

Since it assumes he existed and that the story is fact. Perhaps he took some good drugs too.

The point being made is that in religious tradition the story represents a point in time when human sacrifice was no longer tolerated so the sacrifices were limited to animals at the temple. Without the existence of a temple there would be no more animal sacrifices either so sacrifices were replaced by prayer. At least that's how the Jewish tradition views it.

But using the schizophrenia angle does work when discussing with biblical literalists in the same way as making fun of the idea that the world is 6000 years old. But in a forum with people who don't see the story as literal you can start a poll asking where Little Red Riding Hood got her drugs because any drug that makes you see talking wolves is worth a try.

[sam sarrha]

9. in the times of Abraham there was a serious climate change.. that is why they went south

to Egypt, in such times of climactic pressures people just couldn't accord to sacrifice, or give anymore extortion fees to the priests.. that is what ended sacrifice. if you cant feed your kids you aren't going to support the rich temple Bureaucrats.. just like today

[Meshuga]

10. I'm not arguing for what actually ended sacrifices

I am merely stating the Jewish take on the story in context with the oral tradition and what the story represents as a literary work.

[Azooz]

6. The Koran mentions that claim to

The tribes of Northern Arabia rejected the name Abraham for over 2,000 years, they considered him nuts to - the Rabbis and Priests could not explain it well enough, sadly, so the name become the name for mad men who heard strange voices - they went back to using that name when the Koran explained it properly.

It is a story, much the same as any other, it can be explained 100 ways by 100 people, but some books explain it much better than others, none explain it better than the Koran.

As for Mohamed (pbuh) - all anyone has to do to discredit him is write even one single page as well written as any in the Koran, that has proven to be impossible for over 1,400 by all writers and poets - any English writer would be happy to become schizophrenic to write half that good - it just can not be done, and the Koran mentions that often to.

So you have your versions of what those two men were like and the Koran has another, only the Koran is much better worded than anything ever written before or since.

To free all the Arab tribes of their "insanity of religion" just give us one page like any in the Koran and consider Islam over, forever - OK? It takes about 7 months to learn enough basic Arabic, and it is a simple book that children can read to, so give it a try, like 1,000s of out best poets and I did - the Koran says that even if humans united to write a single page like they would fail, that has been proven fact till, now maybe you can write something better?

Till then I'll keep my "insanity", thank you very much ;)

Peace

[sam sarrha]

12. this i the page i like best,,

http://users.skynet.be/sky50779/mohammed.htm

[Azooz]

17. try "possessed"

Is that the best page ever written in the English language?

The wording of the Koran was considered to be black magic when it was first read, they called him "possessed" by evil demons - no human can write, or speak like that.

[ZombieHorde]

15. the Koran is much better worded than anything ever written before or since

Who judges the writings? Muslims? Have the judges read everything ever written in the original languages?

What standards are used to determine if a Japanese poem is better or worse than the Koran?

[Azooz]

16. you judge it.

Japanese poets of any religion, or none, can compare their poetry and word skills to the Koran, and you can compare it to anything you have ever read or written. One way to test the claim is to try to translate the Koran into Japanese or English, that has never been done even by people who love all human languages and have great skills in translation.

Any standards you care to use the Koran will surpass easily. The most important standard, I think, is "readability", it has been over 1,400 years and it is the most readable book in the Arabic library, even more so than any other work of literature of poetry. Grammar, as a standard would be unfair because the Koran's grammar goes beyond what even the best human writer could achieve, and the more grammar one learns the more readable the Koran becomes.

The standard I personally like is "What Does That Mean?" - I really do not like Muslim clergy, and have no reason to respect them other than their ability to explain the wording - and I know within 30 seconds if they know less than I do, more, or much more.

And the standard of beauty, that is always hard, a poet will mostly be better than a writer, but the Koran is the most beautiful thing ever written.

This is nothing new, the Koran itself challenges all writers to write a page like it, the only question remaining is Why no one has ever been able to write a simple page like any it contains. All that is required is to learn a bit of Arabic, and then tell me if any of your favorite writers or poets even comes close.

[ZombieHorde]

24. Any standards you care to use the Koran will surpass easily.

I choose the standards of decent zombie invasions and insane hentai monster action. These standards should come through in any professional translation.

"What Does That Mean?"

Considering the profound greatness of differences between native speaker interpretations, the Koran seems to be a bit fuzzy in some places.

The most important standard, I think, is "readability"

Then you should be very proud of your subject line.

Koran's grammar goes beyond what even the best human writer could achieve

"I like to pee." = Perfect grammar.

And the standard of beauty

Hence, the standard I care to use. (zombie invasion + insane hentai)

the Koran is the most beautiful thing ever written

Why do you hold this opinion? Some nine year old girl could have written the most simple and elegant poem in the history of writing, just to lose it under her bed. How would anyone know? How can we honestly say; "This is the best thing ever written."?

Perhaps we need a poll.

[Taitertots]

27. Koran yeah not some much

Every part I've ever read just reads like a poorly worded pseudo-poem. It is arraigned poorly, making reading it non-sequitur at best.

I've read the bible, koran, book of mormon, and even dianetics. The reason is can't be translated has more to do with how poorly constructed it is. Advanced languages it comes off looking childish and not understandable. You can't translate things that are not sentances into sentances.

[Azooz]

28. That is why there is no English Koran

Just learn a bit of Arabic, and you'll have no doubt that it is the best written book on Earth - the Koran itself challenges all writers and poets. I am not saying anything about a holy book, just an extremely well written book.

I agree with you that the Koran's English translations are a mess and that is exactly why Muslims say that the Koran is only the Koran in Arabic - it says much the same things in English but not even close to the original Arabic.

There is no doubt at all that it is the best written book on Earth. This has been true for over 1,400 years, that is fact and the Koran says so without worrying about it ever being contradicted - and just a learning a bit of Arabic is all that is required to prove this to yourself.

>>You can't translate things that are not sentences into sentances.
The sentences of the Koran are properly and deservedly called miracles, all of them. One has to have pity on the poor English translators trying to translate them - even the sentences that seem long and boring in English are very good in Arabic and keep even young children interested.

It is like a great jewel with 114 facets (chapters), each of the 114 is in itself the best piece of writing on Earth, and each of the 114 compliments and completes the other to make the jewel shine - same thing for each of the 1,000s of sentences, and all of it's individual words to. You can read it for hundreds of years without getting bored and each reading better than the one before it. That is not an exaggeration, not vanity, lie or a brag, it is fact and has proven itself since the first people read it, as it promised it would.

[ZombieHorde]

29. "the Koran itself challenges all writers and poets"

I passed the challenge!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x193490

[Azooz]

34. Locked, but I'd have chosen your poll over the "English Koran" n/t

[ZombieHorde]

35. That was very kind of you.

Now I just need to learn Arabic, and create a beautiful Arabic poll.

[Taitertots]

31. Dilutions of Grandeur

The vast majority of the worlds population disagrees with you. Both on its factuality and its greatness. I personally having read it (in english) disagree with you. The structure is poorly constructed, it is factually incorrect, and it is plain boring. It really reads like it was written by a childish mind. No order to the idea presentation. It reads like it is trying to be a poem but failing.

Learning Arabic isn't going to turn a poorly written book into the greatest book ever. The failing is in the substance not the words. I don't want a book to read like a riddle or a wanna be poem. I want ideas presented in a logical and readable order.

Sounds to me like dilutions of grandeur. Religious zeal getting in the way of objective analysis.

[Azooz]

33. There is no English Koran.

>>Learning Arabic isn't going to turn a poorly written book into the greatest book ever.
That is simple to say in English, without knowing Arabic you have only the English translators to judge and I agree with, but could not do any a better translation myself.

That the Koran is the best written book on Earth is fact, learning Arabic is the only requirement to prove this to yourself, the "English Koran" does not even come close.

edit - spelling

[Taitertots]

36. Arabic has nothing to do with it

What it has more to do with is that it is structurally poor. The ideas are not put forward in a clear and effective way. Learning arabic isn't going to reorganize the whole book. It isn't going to make the not factual parts factual. It isn't going to make it the boring parts less boring.

Isn't it too conveinant that it is only the greatest book in arabic to believers. Dilusions of granduer and religious zealotry at its best.

[Azooz]

38. Dilusions of granduer ?

When someone says that his or her book is the best book on Earth, that would be a delusion of grandeur and I would be a religious zealot if I believed it out of hand - but I am talking fact here, it is the best written book on Earth, and that fact has been undisputed on over 1,400 years.

The simple answer to the Koran's claim would be to write a single page like any of it's pages - once that is done I'll accept that it is a delusion and a vain boast, but till someone writes such a page the Koran claim is %100 true.

I find the English Koran boring to, all of it - but there is no boring part in the Arabic. I learned Arabic at age 12, I'm almost 50 now and have yet to be bored with the Koran, it just keeps getting better, more interesting and the new details keep on coming up.

>>Isn't it too conveinant that it is only the greatest book in arabic to believers.
Not only "believers", because there is no religion or faith required to enjoy reading a very good book - most Muslims do not know what I am talking about, and most Muslims who do know do not know Arabic. I am talking of an incredibly well written book, you can believe that it is a book of lies but it will still be the best book ever written in the history of the written word.

I think it is best that I stop at this point, I'm unable to prove this claim in English and I have bored others here with this subject before.

Peace

[Taitertots]

39. Your Claims Refuted

~When someone says that his or her book is the best book on Earth, that would be a delusion of grandeur and I would be a religious zealot if I believed it out of hand~
Mohamed did and you are.

~it is the best written book on Earth, and that fact has been undisputed on over 1,400 years.~
How can it be undisputed when the vast majority of people don't even read it? Even the majority of muslims can't read it in arabic. So the super majority of the people who have ever lived disagree with you.

Also I'm disputing it right now. My dispute isn't even with something that the arabic koran could change. The whole koran's structure terrible. I read it and didn't like it, you claim has been refuted.

The simple answer to the Koran's claim would be to write a single page like any of it's pages.
"Like" any of its pages?
Who judges it?
In arabic?
The simple answer is that I've read it and it is not the best. That seems more like the contrived answer that has criteria that make it arbitrary and trite.

I think this was over before it began. Your mind is made up.

[Azooz]

46. See: "What Does That Mean?" n/t

[Meshuga]

37. Don't worry Azooz

The Koran is his/her favorite book. He/she just doesn't know it yet. :-)

[Azooz]

45. I worry that I don't worry enough, Mr. Wiggles

:)

[Meshuga]

47. That's the good kind of worry.

I am all for that. :-)

[Dorian Gray]

51. You can't make a fact

out of subjective opinion.

[Azooz]

54. It's more than a fact, it's a challenge

it is part of the Koran, it states, more than once, a challenge to all writers and poets to write even a single page like it. The Koran states as fact that no such page will be written even if all humans unite to try it.

What is fact is that no one has met that challenge in over 1,400 years - the Koran's challenge has yet to be met.

[Meshuga]

55. I am the best husband in the world

That's a fact. My wife even bought me a greeting card for my birthday stating that I am the best husband in the whole world. You only doubt that because you don't know me. But it is true. It's been claimed in more than one greeting card since I have been married. Oh, and I am the best dad in the entire universe. That's an even bigger title! I wonder who is the best husband in the universe. I'm aiming for his title in 2009. I guess I have to wait to find out on my wedding anniversary.

[Dorian Gray]

56. That seems stupidly

arbitrary. If someone writes something "like" it, they are just copying it. That challenge is a joke.

Each individual written work is its own. I've found certain works absolutely stunningly beautiful while others would find it terribly boring. It's subjective.

As for the Koran in Arabic, obviously I've never read it as I can't read arabic.

[Crunchy Frog]

11. Abraham was probably fictional.

[struggle4progress]

13. What difference does it make whether Abraham were schizophrenic or not?

Being schizophrenic does not negate a person completely: even schizophrenics might have interesting and valuable insights: in fact, the traditional Buddhist view of reality seems to be that the ordinary commonsense view of the world is a delusion, which inappropriately concocts a smooth and connected "world" from a jumbled ever-shifting mess of momentary impressions and sensations -- which is rather like saying a schizophrenic's worldview might be more honest and accurate than the worldview of the rest of us, who are so proud in our self-delusions that we are sane

In any case, the interest in the story of Abraham goes rather beyond his brief intention of sacrificing Isaac

Abraham's first encounter with the Divine occurs when he offers hospitality to a group of strangers who are wandering in the desert near his tent: that is a story that can be understood as a teaching of what "meeting G-d" actually means

And the story of the near-sacrifice of Isaac must be read in its entirety, not as the story of an sacrifice that occurred, but as the story of a sacrifice that did not occur -- it is not merely the story of Abraham heeding "the voice of G-d" instructing him to kill his son but also the story of Abraham subsequently heeding "the voice of an angel" instructing him not to kill his son

One does not need to know whether the legend is based on some actual biography, of some temporarily deluded fellow, to extract a clear meaning from it

[ZombieHorde]

14. One does not need to know...a clear meaning

Doesn't this depend on the type of meaning one desires to gain.

[struggle4progress]

23. There are potentially many reasons to be interested in these old stories: & not all are theological

For example, one might be intretested for purely scholarly reasons in trying to understand what the stories tell us about ideas and culture the time and place in which they were first told or first written; or one might be interested in various of the diverse multiple social and political uses to which the stories have been put subsequently; one can be interested in the stories as literature; one can be interested in the stories as tools for reproducing cultural norms; and so on

An interpretative scheme that seems popular with certain inhabitants of this forum is to read these texts, looking only for evidence of criminal insanity, and to use such a selective reading as the basis for broadbrush attacks against anyone who ever found anything interesting in the texts

[Taverner]

18. Schizophrenia is the source of ALL religions

I am convinced if Jesus existed, he was schizophrenic

Same with Moses, Mohammed, Abraham, Jacob, Ezikiel, John the Baptist....etc

Either schizophrenia or heat stroke

[sam sarrha]

20. this >>Link>> on Mohamed is very interesting

http://users.skynet.be/sky50779/mohammed.htm
"snip...Acromegaly is caused by an adenoma of the pituitary, which causes an increase in growth hormone (somatotropine) and usually a deficiency or increase of other hormones such as gonadotropine. The disease begins in adult persons about the fourth decade of age. Most patients die about the age of 60 years. It is a long-lasting disease with slow progress, sometimes burning out. Most patients tolerate it reasonably well. The melanophore hormones secreted by the pituitary cause a peculiar straw-yellow skin-colour. Excessive sweating is sometimes caused by hyperthyroidism. Sweating can be oily and have an unpleasant odour. Patients suffer from high blood pressure. Some hirsutism is observed (eyebrows). The growth of all extremities after adult age causes also the vertebrae to extend and the spine to curve. This extension can cause pain as the nerves suffer pressure. Especially typical is the enlargement of the fingers and the dough like feeling of the palms when shaking hands. Rarely a bleeding of the pituitary occurs and causes dead: this apoplexy of the pituitary causes headaches, nausea, vomiting, losses of consciousness. Psychologically patients suffer initially from depression, brooding and irritability, also an increase of appetite and a loss of libido. Some patients are anxious and are lacking in self-confidence. When the adenoma exerts pressure on the third ventricle and the optic chiasma in the brain the patients may suffer from hallucinoses. ...snip"

this condition could be why no image of the Prophet is allowed...because the disease can be very disfiguring
http://www.stockphotofinder.com/stock-photos/a/acromegaly.html

http://www.stockphotofinder.com/preview/index.php?content_id=171605&content_provider=photoresearchers&page_src=http%3A%2F%2Fdb2.photoresearchers.com%2Fcgi-bin%2Fbig_preview.txt%3Fimage_id%3DSB9418&content_type_selector=

[struggle4progress]

22. If you want to oppose dogma, perhaps you could begin by fighting it in yourself

[sam sarrha]

40. sorry... you gotta explain that one to me..

[struggle4progress]

44. Taverner asserts without supporting evidence "Schizophrenia is the source of ALL religions"

Despite its scientific pretensions, the statement is dogmatic and actually seems to be an article of faith

[sam sarrha]

48. i disagree with him, Islam is due the effects of a Pituitary gland tumor >link>>

http://users.skynet.be/sky50779/mohammed.htm

[struggle4progress]

53. Your science seems spotty and careless: you began by claiming

Abraham and Mohammed were both schizophrenic, based on your diagnosis of a character in a story that must predate the 17th century BC Hyksos invasion, and your assertion that Mohammed, more than two millenia later, was a relative of Abraham's, from which you draw conclusions by genetics; but now you assert that Mohammed suffered from a pituitary tumor, rather than schizophrenia (which you apparently intend to explicitly disavow)

[sam sarrha]

19. have you seen 'A Beautiful Mind', there was no medication then, even the strangers could have been

an hallucination. the fact he was told to kill his child, today the first thing a doctor would do is assume Schizophrenia, and peruse that first

[struggle4progress]

21. Your view is that whoever offers hospitality to strangers must be hallucinating?

[sam sarrha]

26. pppllease.. believe whatever you want, or what others want you to.. i dont care,

[struggle4progress]

30. Well, I'm sorry you didn't like the question, but it seems reasonable to me:

you read half of one of several stories about a real or composite or legendary figure -- who, though tempted to kill his son, did not do so -- put that story beside a number of stories about sick people who actually did kill their children ( http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=193399&mesg_id=193424 ), and thereafter you find nothing interesting in the story except your own conjecture that everything recounted must be a diseased hallucination

If you want to read Abraham's offer of hospitality to strangers merely as more evidence he was demented, then of course you are free to do so. But even if there were a historical Abraham, who was actually demented, the story of offering hospitality to strangers seems (to me) to allow more interesting interpretations than yours -- whether or not I am inclined to believe whatever I want or whatever others want me to believe

[sam sarrha]

41. i just cant buy into the Cosmology of illiterate bronze age goat headers, tho Abraham's father was

an idol maker..

[struggle4progress]

43. What cosmology do you find. in the act of offering hospitality to strangers, that you find so

objectionable that you can interpret it only as evidence of mental illness?

[sam sarrha]

49. i dont care what you think.. be happy..

[struggle4progress]

52. But I did not tell you what I thought: I simply asked you to clarify your earlier statement

[cambie]

25. Maybe it wasn't Abraham who was schizophrenic,

but the entire society in which he lived. Prior to that time sacrifice, cannibalism, and obeying the voice of God in one's head would have been the norm. He seems to have been aware that the voice was not real, to be able to defy it and act instead on his individual conscience. This would have taken courage, remember that they were waiting at the bottom of the hill to see that he obeyed. It fits with Jaynes' "Origin of Consciousness" theory. Abraham’s story marks the time when humans began to develop independent consciousness and rise above the vast madhouse that surrounded them.

The tale should instructive to the many of Abraham’s spiritual descendents who have not yet made the transition.

[sam sarrha]

42. i read that book, very interesting, but there are other stories of seizures.. i come from

a Free Holiness Pentecostal background..

[moobu2]

32. He was a fictional character concocted for political reasons

If by some chance he was real and claimed to hear voices telling him to kill anyone, then yes, he probably was schizophrenic or ate some bad bread or hallucinogenic mushrooms perhaps.

[sam sarrha]

50. whatever, im just livid that theyve insidiously weaseled their way into every aspect of our society

and feel they have the right to control the lives of nonbelievers.