Celebrating the killing of other's children.

[Dufaeth]

Your thoughts?

[MrModerate]

1. Generally, I'm opposed. What are you talking about? n/t

[hvn_nbr_2]

7. I'm with you. What is this about?

Sounds to me like a stealth abortion troll. But it could be an anti-war statement or a complaint about the books of Jeremiah, Isaiah, Job, and most of the Old Testament history books.

Whichever, it seems almost certainly a stupid troll of some sort.

[Dufaeth]

13. Whoops, didn't think that it would be taken as abortion related,

but I see how it easily could've been. I'm talking about Passover. If finding it strange and creepy, and wanting to talk about it is being a troll then call me the King Under the Bridge.

[Atman]

2. Is this free-association time?

While your at it, what are your thoughts on bludgeoning kittens?

[tuvor]

3. You first.

I sense a trick question.

[Dufaeth]

4. I find it odd and creepy.

I don't think most people really think about it though.

[Warpy]

5. Jesus saves, Buddha recycles

Now what the hell are you talking about?

[SlackJawedYokel]

6. Aren't we all someones children?

What rational person celebrates killing other people?

Cletus

[beam me up scottie]

8. Why are you

celebrating and whose children did you kill?

[Az]

9. As a case example for comparison could you point out a cultural example

I don't think anyone is getting the point of your question without such a point to compare it to. As it is your question is just seen as odd and creepy. Some more info if you please.... or were you shooting for the odd and creepy?

[Dufaeth]

10. >Passover

.

[Az]

11. Ahh, that example

Not exactly something I celebrate. But then I have problems with the book that relates that story so not really mine to defend.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. What?

How is Passover the celebration of the death of other's children?! Passover is about the Jews escaping slavery. By your 'logic,' the same question could be asked about those who celebrate the death of the child of Joesph and Mary. :eyes:

[beam me up scottie]

17. I was wondering that too but

I'm just an atheist so I figured I'd better not ask...

[Az]

18. Consider

The event they are celebrating by way of Passover is that the first born of every family was killed that night except those chosen by God. Its all in how you look at it.

[beam me up scottie]

19. Thanks.

But the more I learn about religion, the more I feel like Mowgli.

[Dufaeth]

22. The very name "Passover" refers to

skipping over the Jewish first-born to kill the others.

[Behind the Aegis]

23. Your point?

It is still not the celebration of the slaughter of the first-born! It is a celebration of escape from Egypt and slavery! The name of the holiday is not what the celebration is about, but what happened during part of the holiday. We do not celebrate the deaths of the first-borns, but the release from bondage. Therefore, the premise that this is a holiday celebrating the death of anyone is grossly inaccurate and offensive.

Part of the tradition is to relay the story and do so in song. One song is called Dahyenu (It Would Have Been Enough For Us).

Had He brought us out of Egypt and not judged them, it would have been enough for us.

(chorus)It would have been enough for us.

Had He judged them and not done so to their idols, it would have been enough for us.

(chorus)It would have been enough for us.

This doesn't sound like a celebration of death. It sounds like had G-d chosen NOT to kill the first-born, but still released us from bondage, It would have been enough for us!

Had Pharaoh done as Moses directed with "Let my people go!", perhaps G-d wouldn't have visited the ten plagues on Egypt.

Pesach: Passover

[Dufaeth]

24. The plagues were to glorify himself.

He hardened Pharaoh's heart after he relented each time so Yahweh could show everyone his power.

[Behind the Aegis]

27. Again...missing the point.

The celebration is about the RELEASE FROM SLAVERY! It is NOT about the plagues...ANY OF THEM! We do NOT celebrate the plagues, we CELEBRATE the freedom! And, even if G-d did harden his heart, it still does NOT make this holiday about the celebration of the murder of children. Your premise is offensive and uneducated!

[Az]

25. But this creates a rather nasty issue

Yes its great that they were able to find their way to freedom. But what they are celebrating is in fact the notion that God chose them to be nice to and the rest of the world gets the shaft. If you want to create an exclusionary system this is the way to start it.

It places people into camps. On one side the good guys. The one's chosen by God. On the other side the people that don't quite measure up. Those that are deserving of death, plagues, and whatever befalls them. As God defines morality what he does to those he has not chosen must be morally good. Including the slaughter of the first born of every family except those of the chosen people.

[Behind the Aegis]

26. Not really

Had Pharaoh released the slaves, none of the plagues would have been unleashed. So what we are celebrating is the RELEASE FROM SLAVERY! As I stated in the other post, had we been released from slavery, then the plagues would have not befell the Egyptians. My guess is that the holiday would still have been established because it is a celebration of the Jews RELEASE FROM SLAVERY! It may even have bore the same name because Pesach means "pass over" but it is also the name of the sacrifice of lamb that Jews made to G-d.

"The holiday is also referred to as Chag he-Aviv, (the Spring Festival), Chag ha-Matzoth, (the Festival of Matzahs), and Z'man Cherutenu, (the Time of Our Freedom) (again, all with those Scottish "ch"s)." None of these other names seem to celebrate the notion that "that G-d chose them to be nice to and the rest of the world gets the shaft." As for the premise that this holiday is a celebration of the murder of children is offensive and uneducated.

The bit about the "chosen people" is also off the mark. Jews have had hard lives, some of it because they defied G-d. The idea of the "chosen people" is not one of exclusion in that Jews are better than others. They were "chosen" to receive G-d's laws. Jews are not exempt from any laws that others must follow. As a matter of fact, Jews are expected to follow more laws, and those who are not Jews, are exempt, but it does not mean that G-d loves them any less!

[Az]

29. How exactly could Pharoah have done that?

God did harden his heart. Says so quite specifically.

Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

What choice did Pharoah have? God had put the whammy on him. He was rendered unable to sympathise with Moses. And then the plagues came.

Do not misunderstand my position here. I am not claiming that the death of the first born is what is being seperated. I am merely trying to point out that there can be other points of view. If God is viewed as a force of nature than it is natural for those that survive such an onslaught to be thankful that they were passed over. But this strikes right at an issue that those outside the belief see as truly hypocritical.

Imagine a person standing in the middle of a disaster area that just slaughtered everyone around him. Announcing that he is thankful that he alone was worthy of survival belittles those that did not survive. Why were they not worthy?

This happens all the time. Its not just Jews. Its human nature. When something catastrophic happens the mind balks. It struggles to come up with a reason that they survived when others didn't. Throw in a belief in a god and you have the ingredients for a Chosen People.

I fully understand the requirements layed upon faithful Jews. I have studied the Torah and paid a particular focus on Leviticus. 10 commandments? Ha. Thats a lot of rules in there. 300+.

The point here is that there is a dangerous implication in claiming that one group was saved at the expense of another. Even if that is not the intent of a particular celebration others may see it as such.

[Behind the Aegis]

31. no catchy title

And G-d did harden his heart. Perhaps the lesson was for the Jews. It was at the expense of others, but it still does not excuse the idea that our holiday is the celebration of the murder of children! I understand that people can look at religion in a number of ways, especially if it is not their own. However distasteful one may find some thing, incorrectly stating or implying something as fact weakens the argument.

I am not even a 'practicing' Jew, but I was raised as one. And the idea that someone would even suggest that Passover is a celebration of the murder of children is offensive, disrespectful, uneducated, and crude! That description is not a "point of view" but a slander! One of the reason Jews eat unleavened bread is because they had to flee immediately and also it was to symbolize they should not be "proud or arrogant." This doesn't sound like a group of people that were on the run going "Hey, we got off easy, fuck those bastards, they got what they deserved!" It was more of "hey, we got a reprieve, remember that we were not the ones you supplied it and it could have been us!"

Would a post like "Why are Catholics cannibals (in reference to Holy Communion)?" be another perspective or just offensive and ignorant? I don't think it is another perspective; it would be ignorant and offensive, showing that the person had NO knowledge of the rationale behind the ceremony, even if they agreed or not with the ceremony!

As for the example you provided about the person in the middle of the disaster and the only survivor, I would say that most Jews would not view this as being more worthy than those who died, but thankful they were spared. And all though human nature may have some act that way, many do not; that is what "survivor's guilt" is all about. It is not "I was spared because I am better," but "Why was I spared? What makes me so special?"

Az, I have seen many of your posts and I usually find them interesting and insightful, but I will admit I am at a loss for why you would suggest that someone suggesting a holiday was about the murder of children was just "another perspective." There is a difference in having an opposing opinion and a bigoted remark. Although, I guess my observations could be considered nothing more than another perspective.

[Az]

33. There are many stories within the bible

That are troubling. And while I acknowledge what is in the hearts and minds of people celebrating Passover today as a humble gratitude for escaping slavery I cannot help but recognise the moral issues inherant in the original story.

There are other even more troubling stories in there. To my view they are not representitive of the individuals practicing the religion today. There are some very very disturbing things in the Old Testiment. There is no escaping that. The slaughter of the first born is just one example. But as we look at other religious texts and interpret them through the lens of time so to do we view this story.

Consider the story of Zeus. His own father ate him and his siblings. He climbed out and killed his own father to take command of Olympus. Not exactly a family values story. But we examine it through the filter of time and see it as an insiteful understanding of adolecent development.

Yes some people are going to look at the act of communion with some level of discomfort. The adherants claim to be eating transformed human flesh. Its their claim not ours. Its disturbing on some levels. Abraham ready to strike down his own son is disturbing to some. God sending a pair of bears to slaughter 42 children because they called someone bald is disturbing to some.

As long as these disturbing things are not going on here and now most people can create an emotional distance to them. Thus adherants of beliefs are not held accountable to the actions of the past as if they happened just the other day. But the doctrine still holds that they did happen. And some people are going to notice them.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. Stories and history

I have read the Bible and the Torah. When I say "read," I do not mean read to me, I mean, I read them cover to cover, as it were. I have yet to read the Qu'ran (:().

There are some horrible stories in the Bible. But, they are just a glimpse at what makes up the religion of Jews. I know that when I was younger and at home, we never celebrated the murder of babies. We praised G-d for delivering us from bondage. We were also reminded that we were never to be safe, least history repeat itself.

I find it interesting that you chose the story of Zeus as another example, since that is closer to the path I currently follow. First, Zeus didn't crawl out, he was never swallowed. When he grew up, he rescued his siblings, then slew his father (or castrated, depending on the author). But, most will see this as allegory or myth (and I have NO problem saying the Bible and Torah are full of them too). I can also appreciate that some will find them disturbing, but to start off a post with "is celebrating the murder of children a good thing' is offensive and uneducated. And, as much as I respect you, I will not waver that this thread was offensive and grossly inaccurate.

I can observe the religion of my family and my own spirituality in a variety of ways, but there does come a point when an opinion can be grossly uneducated and bigoted.

[Az]

36. Understand my position in this thread

I am not advocating focusing on that aspect of Passover. In fact At first I questioned what the OP was going on about. Once he stated Passover was his intent I found myself being the sole individual explaining what he meant by that. It is not a point I would choose to raise on my own as it has little of any impact on most in day to day life. My only criteria for raising it would be in conjunction with bible criticism. And as I have pointed out there are numerous stories rife for such criticism within most religions.

Thanks for the reminder on Zeus. I will plead that it was late and is misremembered the incident. ;)

If you wish we can end this discussion or we can continue on a path of examining the stories of the bible from a critical angle. At no time has my intent been to impugned the joy of any group. I apologize if I have caused any such discomfort.

[Behind the Aegis]

41. Appreciation

I better understand where you are coming from, but I still feel the premise of the thread was discriminatory and insulting. It, my mind, would be no different had he/she said that Memorial Day was about the celebration of the murder of children.

As for the discussion about Biblical stories from a critical angle, I am all for it! I don't know that I want to do it here, because I feel like with each post, I would have to extend my disgust at this post (even if just a footnote). Perhaps another thread would work.

I won't be around until later as I am going to the ZOO!!! :) (I am sure someone could take offense at that too!)

Again, I appreciate that you better explained your position; it really did ease my mind!

[Colorado Blue]

28. Passover is the story of how the Jewish people escaped

from slavery in Egypt.

For pete's sake, I think this is one of the worst examples of bigotry I have run into on DU.

For shame.

[Az]

30. Missing the point ... I hope

What does the word Passover refer to? It refers to a specific event. The event was God killing the first born of every family in Egypt. Except those he Passed Over. The chosen ones.

Thats the story. Yes because of this they were freed. But you have to realise that to those not part of the belief system this is a terrible story. What harm did any of those children do? They were innocent. And they were killed. Its very hard to escape this conclusion.

Yes rejoice in the belief that the Jews were freed by this the end of a series of events. But have the wisdom to see that it is not the only way to interpret the story.

There is no condemnation being made of individuals of any particular belief in this observation. It is very simply a different point of view concerning an event preported to have happend 1000s of years ago. Tradition stands today as Passover being a celebration of the freedom of the slaves. But the story is not without problems.

[Colorado Blue]

32. I'm sorry, but given the history of our people, I am not

amused.

There are also stories, widespread among Christians and Muslims, that we kill babies to make our passover matzohs. We are also catching it, STILL, for "killing Christ." Enough!

So give me a break. We have been getting persecuted for this kind of misunderstanding for 2,000 years and it doesn't look like letting up any time soon. What do you think motivated the antisemitism that led to the Holocaust? It was stuff just like this, "problems" with age old tales, completely being misinterpreted, with the blame and aspersions being cast on the people who are celebrating today.

If you want to talk to somebody about this, phone God, I'm sure He's in.

And furthermore: this supposedly happened back about 3,000 BC or thereabouts. The world was a harsh place. We were SLAVES, dying under Pharoah's lash. We should have called a cab?

AND - it is a story, a MYTH! You haven't read about the Trojan War, or the Illiad, or the Medusa, or the slaying of the Minotaur? Those are all gloriously gory and violent.

So? Are we condemning the Greeks for their colorful mythology?

For all we know none of it happened except somehow, miraculously, we ESCAPED. If something did happen, maybe it was an illness.

Should our beautiful holiday be smeared like this?

Why can't we just celebrate in peace?

[Az]

34. Celebrate

As I said in the post above. You obviously are not celebrating the death of children. You are celebrating the freedom of a people. A fine thing indeed.

[Dufaeth]

37. Celebrating freedom is indeed great but there is more to this

holiday than just that. People might ignore it, or not have been taught to think about it, but it still exists. Obviously this holiday is about a series of events leading to the freedom of the Jews, I don't think I ever denied that.
Here is the gist of my problem. The Nazis thought they were bettering Germany by getting rid of the Jews. (I'm not trying to say these are analogous events) Yahweh freed the slaves by killing the egyptians.
I would, and do find it unsettling to hear of people who praise Hitler. Just the same for people who worship an entity who has caused as much horror within the mythology. This includes Christianity and Judaism.

[Az]

38. Heres the problem for me

I don't happen to believe the story of the exodus. There is no evidence supporting the story and I don't happen to believe in god therefor the notion of god striking down the first born is simply untrue. To me it is just a story. To the people celebrating the day the focus is the freedom. Whether the exodus occurred or not the Jews were held as slaves. Being freed of that is worthy of celebration.

The observation of the cruelty inherant in the story is useful for Bible criticism. I don't see what purpose it serves in dealing with individuals celebrating the holiday though. If you don't buy into the belief then it is unlikely that you buy into the actual story so there is no direct impact.

[Dufaeth]

39. I may not believe in the event, but those individuals do

And I find it unsettling. I have a lot of Jewish and Christian friends who I have brought this up to. Many haven't really thought about it, and I have gotten some to be more questioning of their beliefs.

[Az]

40. When I explain the meaning behind the Yule log

Many believers are astounded. There are many traditions and beliefs that mean something differen to those that currently practice it than the stories that originate it. When you take issue with something someone is celebrating you are not going to carry a lot of weight by pointing out the difference between the back story and the thing the people are celebrating.

As I said, such observations are better suited for Bible criticism. The things people practice may not be the same as the observations one makes in such a manner.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. murder is never to be celebrated

the people who demonstrated at Matthew Shepard's funeral were condemning him and appeared to celebrate his murder. They are sick individuals.

[Az]

14. Murder is often celebrated

Once you dehumanize the individual or group. Then their death is celebrated by those that no longer view them as human.

[Tux]

15. Against it

That is why I will never join an Evangelical church.

[imenja]

20. My thoughts: I will never understand why some feel a need to judge

The religious practices of others. What we think is entirely irrelevant.

[Az]

21. There is an irony contained here

The majority of people are more than willing to let others believe what they may. Its typically only when they are accused by these beliefs of being immoral or unworthy of rights that they take an interest in the religious practices of others.

It's the classic look to the plank in one's own eye before commenting on the mote in anothers scenario.

[Colorado Blue]

42. OK, let me try to put some ideas up here. Yesterday I was

mad so I wasn't thinking clearly.

There is a close parallel between the Passover story and the story of the Crucifixion, they even occur at the same time and Jesus' last supper was a Passover seder.

I believe, theologically, the themes overlap and reinforce each other.

Think of the deaths of the Egyptians as a sacrifice, made by God to save the slaves. The slaves were then saved. Another point: the Egyptians believed in eternal life, so you have to regard this as well: death to them was a doorway, not the end. God, being omniscent, is of course aware of this. He made this sacrifice to save other people. The children, including Pharoah's son, went on to eternal life.

Jesus was killed, a sacrifice, who then went on to rise again. People were saved due to this sacrifice.

If you've ever celebrated a Greek Orthodox Easter, you will see the parallels very strikingly. People walk around the dead body of Christos, with candles; they dye eggs red, it very much is a celebration of death and ultimately, deliverance.

You have to see that death is different in the orient, the Middle East.

The celebration isn't for the sacrifice, but for the deliverence. And of course, for the power of God, who alone has the wisdom to make such decisions. You'll remember, it was after the flight from Egypt - Exodus - that Moses brought the tablets declaring, among other things, Thou Shalt Not Kill.

Does this help? The Jewish holiday, through Jesus, who is our kinsman and a rabbi, prefigures the Christian.