Virgin Mary as a Goddess?

[BayCityProgressive]

I am wondering if there are any religions that worship the Virgin Mary? I know Voodoo, and Santeria worship her and interchange her for their own traditional Orisha or Lowa. Catholics seem to be coming very close to what could be considered worship as her importance continues to grow. I have also heard that Muslims venerate her although I am not sure if that is true. Protestants have also become stronger followers and placed more importance on her as more females have entered the clergy. I am not a member of any organized religion I just think this is interesting. I think there is a need in religous communities for a female figure, and it seems strange that they are only now becoming more popular. After all, half of the human race is female and creation seems more related to a female, who is responsible for giving birth. I am not Catholic but even I love statues and paintings of the Virgin Mary yet I have no interest in similar depictions of Jesus. Before the onset of monotheism goddess worship was huge, and is now making a big comeback in the western world. Do you think there is some reason why religions all gravitate to a female figure?

[BrklynLiberal]

1. She was a pagan goddess before she was incorporated into Catholicism

so as to make Christianity more inviting/acceptalbe to the pagans that worshipped her.
The original, primitive gods were all goddesses, since the original mysteries, were the mysteries of birth.

[BayCityProgressive]

2. yes I was aware of that

most of her prayers were old pagan prayers and many of the places she has been sighted were old pagan temple grounds. Very interesting I think.

[BrklynLiberal]

4. There are several interesting books about this.

One of the more interesting ones I have read is called "When God was a Woman"
Obviously, the Bible we have now was written by men and so all the references to women have been minimized and made negative.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

13. A lot of the "Black Madonna" statues in Europe

are believed by some people to be statues of the goddess Isis.

[BrklynLiberal]

15. 8 or 9 PM Sat CNN : A Special "The Two Marys"

A program about the Virgin Mary and Mary Magdalene, who they were, and and their role in religion

[Warpy]

3. Mary worship was the only way they could convert the heathen

tribes in the north of Europe. She's taken on many of the characteristics of their tribal goddesses.

It's significant that all the apparitions in the past 1000 years or so have been of a woman interpreted as Mary.

One might conclude that her son is no longer interested.

[BayCityProgressive]

6. Yes which leads to the other part of my post

Are women dieties automatically more important to humans than males and did the Church try to foist Jesus on people to gain more power for men? I believe many of the sightings of Mary have been apparations that look nothing like the supposed Mary would ever have looked. Perhaps natives were seeing what they believed were visions of local Goddesses and the Church just told the it was the Blessed Virgin to get them to convert?

[judy]

5. Interesting post, BCP...

In Europe, especially in France, there are those famous "black virgins" of unknown origins (there is one in Chartres Cathedral).
There are also a lot of very old memorials to the goddess Isis. Some even say that the name "Paris", anciently Parisis, was a village dedicated to the cult of Isis.

Isis is the female principle, Osiris the male in Egyptian mythology.
The established religions, such as Christianity as set up by Emperor Constantine and then Roman Catholics, have had a tendency to eliminate the value of the female principle completely, to reinforce male domination and the power of male priests over the masses.

Every religion should have a female and male principle attached to it.

[Verve]

7. All over France there are statues of black Madonnas that have been

worshiped by the locals there for centuries.
If you're interested in reading more about females in religion, I would recommend you read the Da Vinci Code. It's a top seller fiction book that reads like a Tom Clancy novel. You won't be able to put it down. It has a lot of info based on the historical aspects of religion that most people don't know about. Although, a fluff book, it'll definitely get you thinking about religion. It inspired me to look into other avenues of religion.

[PaganPreacher]

8. Companions to "DaVinci Code"....

1. "Holy Blood, Holy Grail". A must-read for the non-fiction behind "DaVinci Code."



2. "Mary Magdalene: Christianity's Hidden Goddess" by Lynn Picknett. Great treatment of the Isis-priestess/Black Madonna theory for the Magdalene, compelling idea on Leonardo DaVinci, and a very interesting theory about Jesus vs. John the Baptist.




The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[BrklynLiberal]

9. Thanks. Will add them to my list. N/T

[BrklynLiberal]

11. I saw an "Illustrated" version of the DaVinci Code. It had photos of all

the actual places that were visited in the novel. Of course there was a picture fo the Last Supper.

[PaganPreacher]

17. I'd like to find that edition!

"Holy Blood, Holy Grail" has several photographs from France.

"Mary Magdalene" has plates of some of Leonardo's paintings (the author's interpretation of "Virgin of the Rocks" will make you spit out your coffee!)

The Pagan Preacher
I don't turn the other cheek.

[BrklynLiberal]

10. Read it in one night! Could not put it down!

[selmo7]

12. Mary Miriam Sophia Goddess Tonantzin Wisdom Queen - Mother of All

>>I think there is a need in religous communities for a female figure,

One of my FAVORITE Topics! Thank YOU! I couldn't AGREE more!!! Why is that we do not yet acknowledge and affirm that the Divine Energy is both Male AND Female, God AND Goddess, when everywhere around us we see the dance and interplay of both the masculine and feminine right down to the very birds and bees. Why? Because traditional religions, it seems, have actively suppressed most things having to do with "eros" and "feminine feeling value" which the Goddess embodies - remember the Inquisition? This imbalance to patriarchal worship is no more evidenced than in the ills to which we are encumbered by the present *co administration: rampant corporatism, gross abuses of power, raping of the environment, oppression of women's reproductive rights, cheating to win, pervasive distrust, fear, shamelessness, increasing fascism and so on. This is _not_ a gender thing, rather its a matter of values and our core beliefs about god being male/female instruct our belief systems and the way we act in the world through and through.

YES! There are many who feel that Mary is a manifestation of the Goddess indeed and much has been written of this. In fact, many of the sites of "Mary worship" in Europe were (prior to Catholicism) sites of Goddess worship, Chartres Cathedral in Chartres, France being one.

There are many books/resources available for information on "Mary worship" specifically on the Black Madonna and Goddess worship and related. Check out the following:

*Ean Begg, The Cult of the Black Virgin
*Riane Eisler, The Chalice and the Blade
*Merlin Stone, When God Was a Woman
*ANYTHING by MARIJA GIMBUTAS!!! including the recent movie about her work - INSPIRING!!!!
*Caitlin Matthew, Sophia, Goddess of Wisdom
*China Galland, Longing for Darkness: Tara and the Black Madonna
*Marion Woodman, Dancing in the Flames: The Black Goddess in the Transformation of Consciousness
*Donna Reed 3 part film series: Goddess Remembered, Burning Times and Full Circle
*Sue Monk Kidd, The Secret Life of Bees (novel)
*Dan Brown, The Da Vinci Code (novel)

Here's a nice article by Deborah Rose who occasionally gives workshops/lectures here in the Boston area (she's AWESOME!)
http://www.ofspirit.com/deborahrose1.htm

And here's an on-line interview with Marion Woodman who has noticed images of the Black Madonna emerging in women's dreams:
http://www.wie.org/j16/woodman.asp

In the Spirit of the Great Goddess -
"Selmo"

[BrklynLiberal]

16. Great list! Thanks. n/t

[ExclamationPoint]

21. I couldn't agree more with everything you said n/t

[selmo7]

26. The feminine principle is not a theory but real....

I found the following browsing through my Ean Begg. It feels so meaningful to me and maybe it will for you and others here -

“Our ancient, battered, much-loved, little-understood Black Virgins are a still-living archetypal image that lies at the heart of our civilization and has a message for us. The feminine principle is not a theory but real and it has a will of its own which we ignore at our peril. It is an independent principle and cannot be forced against its will to go anywhere or do anything without bringing retribution on the perpetrator. She brings forth, nourishes, protects, heals, receives at death and immortalizes her children who follow the way of nature. This is no different from the law of their own nature, the logos in psychology, biology, cosmology, and yet, paradoxically, it is also a work against nature. The light of nature tells us that life is a pilgrimage, a journey to the stars along the Milky Way, her hero-path, a voyage across the great water in which she is ship, rudder and guiding star. As the spirit of light in darkness she comes to break the chains of those who live in the prison of unconsciousness and restore them to their true home. In the trackless forest she is both the underground magnetism and the intuition that senses it pointing the traveler in the right direction. She is, traditionally, the compassionate one.”

- Ean Begg, The Cult of the Black Virgin, p 126

[Southpaw Bookworm]

29. jesus and the lost goddess

An addition to the list -- haven't read this, but did see the authors' prior work.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0609607677/qid=1103388542/sr=1-6/ref=sr_1_6/102-3852090-1100114?v=glance&s=books

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

14. FYI-Mary in Islam

Sura 19 is Maryam, which is an entire chapter titled in her honor. The beginning of the chapter basically follows the story found in the New Testament, with Zaccharia and the visit of the angel. There are differences; God creates Jesus by saying "Be!" and it is. Mary gives birth near a palm tree, and God provides her with water and food. What's interesting is what happened when she brought Jesus to her people-

At length she brought
The (babe) to her people.
Carrying him (in her arms)
The said; "O Mary!"
"Truly an amazing thing
Hast thou brought!"

"O sister of Aaron!
Thy father was not
A man of evil, nor thy
Mother a woman unchaste!"

But she pointed to the babe.
They said:"How can we
Talk to one who is
A child in the cradle?"

He said: "I am indeed
A servant of Allah:
He hat given me
Revelation and made me
A prophet;

And He hath made me
Blessed wheresoever I be,
And hath enjoined on me
Prayer and Charity as long
As I live."

"(He) hat made me kind
To my mother, and not
Overbearing or miserable;

"So Peace is on me
The day I was born,
The day that I die.
And the Day that I
Shall be raised up
To life (again)"

Such (was) Jesus the son
Of Mary: (it is) a statement
Of truth, about which
They (vainly) dispute.

From a translation of the Qur'an called The Meaning of The Holy Qur'an translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali

[Brentos]

18. Good Questions!

I have two bits to add to this discussion.

1. God is neither male nor female. The original Hebrew is non-gender specific. It was translated to the generic "he" not the masculine "he". But, you know us men, we took it much farther than intended! After all, we were in control! :-)

2. The pagan gods were not all goddesses. But, there was a much larger emphasis on the goddess aspect. During O/T times, Astarte <sp?> was worshiped along with Moloch, Baal (and local Baal's), and Astarte was considered the consort of Yahweh in even some of the chosen people's land. Egypt was a mix, also, and they were the number one power in the world. The difference with Yahweh, was it's insistence on one God over many gods. (I'm being horribly short-thrifting to this, but I'm busy at work!) :-)

So, maybe people are gravitating to what they can grab as the female aspect of God as only the male aspect has been shown to us all these years (politically, not because of the inherent religion).

Thanks,
-Brentos, the Freshmaker

[mrgorth]

19. Thank you

Most of the gods of pre-Christian europe were male (Odin, Thor, Tyr). Indeed there were goddesses but they were not ALL goddesses.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

22. Among the Baltic people

(the last people in Europe to be converted to Christianity), the sun is a goddess, and the moon is a god. There are still extant folksongs that reflect this mythology.

[ExclamationPoint]

20. At the end of "The Mists of avalon"

There is a paragraph where the main character meets nuns and finds that the goddess of the old religion has become the Virgin Mary of the new religion.
Personal thought: If the Virgin Mary wasn't a goddess, than she probably couldn't have given birth to jesus.

[supernova]

28. I love The Mists of Avalon

It's one of my favorite books. Ever. :D

Yes. Marian Zimmer Bradley reconciles the acient Celtic beliefs with xtianity by positing that Mary is The Goddess.

[ExclamationPoint]

30. I know its beautiful! :)

I love your picture of johnny depp (at least I think it's johnny depp)

[Ignoramus]

23. Virgin de Guadalupe

I hope this won't offend anyone.

I was going to comment on a decal I see all over the place, that I thought was the virgin Mary, but I gather it's probably of the virgin de guadalupe. Maybe this is relevant anyway.

There is an oval shaped virgin de guadalupe image that I see in various renditions all over, usually on a latin american person's cars. I have always thought that it looks like a drawing of a vagina. For example:

http://www.sancta.org/intro.html

There are other images that look a lot more like labia and clitoris... For what it's worth.

[Ignoramus]

24. Santa María Virgen de Guadalupe

Ah, okay it was supposed to be the virgin mary appearing in guadalupe. So, it's on topic after all.

A better picture probably (assuming this works):



If I search for google images of mary guadalupe, etc. or look at: http://www.sancta.org/gallery/index.html, I see many many ovals looking like that lovely source of human life.

[selmo7]

25. Yes Yes So True!

In Marseilles, France in a small bakery across from a church that is legendary for its ancient Goddess worship (and also houses one of the Black Madonnas), they make these cookies called Navettes - which are in a similar shape. The call them boats, but we know what they REALLY are!

Also Sheila na Gig is a fertility Goddess from Ireland who is definitely not shy -

http://www.goddesscafe.com/yoni/sheila.html

I think of the Goddess Aphrodite, emerging from her shell as well.

Our Lady of Guadalupe's (Tonantzin's) feast day was recent, December 12th -

[selmo7]

27. and isn't it interesting

given all the recent torture and abuse scandals in our military and from our OWN US GOVERNMENT and just the idea that we are sending our young soldiers to fight in the godforsaken war that Tonantzin (Our Lady of Guadalupe) is considered to be the "protector and mother of her persecuted children."

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/aztec.htm

What a hypocricy for Jeb Bush to link THIS goddess with intervening to help his brother win the election in Florida (in 2000). (I don't THINK so!) Just goes to show how easy it is to turn the sublime into the ridiculous, the Sacred into the profane :-(

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/state/10410897.htm?1c