The ancient scripts that predate - and might rewrite - the Bible

[Hobo]

Interesting story


<http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1032642/The-ancient-scripts-predate--rewrite--Bible.html>

Hobo

:beer:
:toast:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

1. well...the first line of the story,

"A fresh interpretation of a stone tablet dated to the decades before Jesus's birth could undermine some fundamentals of the Christian faith, experts claim, " indicates that the author has no idea of what christian theology is...maybe he author should learn a little about a topic before he/she decides to write about it...the article is interesting, though.

sP

[ComtesseDeSpair]

4. Well...

You'd think that the mere presence of Mithra (which is the same story as Jesus only hundreds of years earlier), plus the fact that there is no strong historical evidence from non-Christian sources to suggest that Jesus ever actually existed, would be enough to undermine Christianity. Not to mention the sheer ridiculousness of the whole story. Unfortunately, mass delusion is a powerful thing.

[JDPriestly]

6. But, what if it is not really as uncommon as you might think

for people who are spiritually developed to experience visitations of the kind that Jesus' disciples experienced -- visitations in the form of dreams or visions or even very, very vivid memories? Just because two people describe similar experiences does not mean that they did not have the experiences.

I believe that the people who wrote about Jesus resurrection really did experience or felt they experienced the presence of Jesus after he died. That experience is rare, but more common than you think. You can theorize about the reasons for those experiences or what is really happening, but the experience itself is rare, but not unknown -- even today. So there could be several similar accounts of people returning from the dead for a brief time.

[On the Road]

15. Yes, I Mean

why would this undermine the Christian faith? Assuming the gospel accounts, Jesus told his disciples he would die and be resurrected within three days. He had to get the idea from somewhere.

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. I find very funny the way certain people want to scream "HA! THIS KILLS CHRISTIANITY!!!!"

Every time something comes up.

Sheesh.

And this idiot: Daniel Boyarin, of the University of California at Berkeley, said that there was growing evidence suggesting that Jesus could be best understood through a close reading of the Jewish history of his day.

Well, no shit. Scholars and people of Christian faith have known that for... um... 2000 years, and it's been a mainstay of biblical interpretation and historical thinking for a good 200 years.

Good job coming late to the party, Professor.

[skooooo]

7. Rabrrrrr!

Long time no see. Wasn't sure you were still around.

[Clark2008]

12. Thank you.

I thought my reading comprehension was suffreing today. I read that article and thought, "How does this change Christianity? This is the same story I was always told in church."

Duh...

[Schema Thing]

13. I don't know very many self described christians

who have even the slightest interest in understanding Jesus "through a close reading of the Jewish history of his day."

<P>

Maybe you hang out with a better class of christian than I do.

[wurzel]

3. "The new text seems to imply". Says it all.

[leftofthedial]

5. yea and verily it is written.

now give me your money and do what I tell you. Obey my rules and you will (heh, heh, heh) live forever.

[skooooo]

8. I find this interesting because...

..from my knowledge there were a few small groups of men who sat down and decided what would be in the Bible and what wouldn't. Politics decided which texts made it, unfortunately, so texts like the Gospel of Thomas were excluded over other texts that did not threaten the status quo.

[Ian David]

9. See also: Dead Sea tablet suggests Jewish resurrection imagery pre-dates Jesus

Dead Sea tablet suggests Jewish resurrection imagery pre-dates Jesus
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=177903&mesg_id=177903

[Ian David]

10. Sorry, Christians. The correct Messiah was Shimon. Thanks for playing!

<snip>

"This is a revolutionary text," Knohl said when presenting his research at a conference marking 60 years since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls held this week at the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. "The text changes the way we look at the historical Jesus, and provides a missing link connecting Judaism and Christianity," he added.

"I identified a previously unrecognized Jewish notion that the blood of the messiah is necessary in order to bring about national redemption. The idea of a tortured messiah who was resurrected three days after his death was adopted by Judaism before the birth of Jesus. The main ideas of the Jesus myth existed in Judaism," Knohl went on to say.

<snip>

... concluding that the text is describing the angel Gabriel as someone who raises from the dead the prophet leader named "Minister of ministers" three days after his death. He associates this minister with a historic figure-a Jewish leader named Shimon who declared himself king and led a failed rebellion against Herod in the year 4 B.C.E. until he was killed by Herod's army.

More:
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/999719.html


Oh, my...

The Christians are following the wrong Messiah!

SHIMON!

[On the Road]

27. Your Understanding of the Background

is obviously limited to whatever might disprove the conventional story. Not really helpful for interpreting this finding.

[DearAbby]

11. Interesting...

but the old testament is filled with prophecies of the coming messiah. This is another text or part of one that didn't make the cut...the Old testament has references of books that were never in the "canon" like the book of Jubilees is mentioned, and others.

I didn't see in the article where this was dated. There was such a turmoil during the rein of the Romans. The longing for a Messiah to save them, many believed that Simon Bar Kokhba was one, 132 AD

-The Jewish sage Rabbi Akiva (alternatively Akiba) regarded the chosen commander Simon Bar Kokhba to be the Jewish Messiah, according to the Star Prophecy verse from Numbers 24:17: "There shall come a star out of Jacob" ("Bar Kokhba" means "son of a star" in the Aramaic language).- Wiki.

The article is interesting.

[mulsh]

14. there's a reason the Bible is written in American

this just proves it. :evilgrin:

[noel711]

16. This really isn't NEW news....

There are many of us 'christians' who are educated, open minded,
liberal, progressive, you name it..

who keep up with contemporary archeology and research.
Some of us don't get all in a lather when new discoveries and
texts are uncovered and discussed.

As we say in seminary: Big whoop...

Because faith isn't about 'proof,' its a spiritual issue.

The 'proofsters' are called fundies, and they don't run the world,
altho they'd like to..

[ComtesseDeSpair]

17. Hmmmm...

So, in other words, you know better, but you're still choosing to ignore all the evidence and believe in nonsense anyway? I will never understand...

[kwassa]

18. ah, a newbie.

[ComtesseDeSpair]

21. Why do you say that?

I've actually been on here for years, I just don't post much.

[knitter4democracy]

19. You can look at it that way.

Or, you can see it as preferring to believe that which we've personally experienced and get much comfort from, even if it's not true in a scientific sense.

Like, I like to believe that I'm a good knitter. I could show you some projects that clearly show I'm not as good as I think I am, but then there are a few projects that I did perfectly and really enjoy wearing or seeing on others. You would cling to the ones I screwed up as evidence that my skills suck, and I would cling to the ones I did well on as proof that my potential is there. It's merely a difference of opinion at that point, don't you think?

[MedleyMisty]

20. I always like your posts

They open up another viewpoint and make me think and try to see stuff another way, which is always good.

So are you saying that you don't really believe it?

I can't seem to grasp that concept - thus why I think I'd have to be a literalist if I took up a religion and why I project that and assume that most people who say they are a member of a religion take that religion's holy book literally. I just couldn't believe that God created humans six days after creating the world and also believe that the world was around for billions of years before humans evolved.

Comfort doesn't really enter the equation for me - maybe I'm not emotionally normal, I don't know. When I'm upset, I hug my husband or pet my cats or just cry and get it out. Same thing when I was younger except I'd hug my mother. And it's not like I've had a very sheltered and safe life - my father died when I was a little kid and his family took our house from us, my brother went crazy and waved a loaded gun at us, I worked at Arby's, the creek near our old apartment flooded and we lost almost everything, etc. When stuff happens, you deal with it and go on. Of course I still have the scars from the rather negative way I chose to cope with Arby's and I really think I would have made a serious attempt to kill myself if my husband hadn't let me quit (in his words I was close to a "psychotic break"), but still.

I have seen other posts with people saying "I have to believe" or "I need to believe", like they know that it isn't true but for some reason they need to believe - but how can you believe something that you know isn't true? I mean, I get how you can think something is true when it's not because you don't know any better, but when you do learn you just replace the old misinformation with the truth. Or at least the better approximation of the truth - I'm sure that some of our ideas and beliefs will seem as ridiculous and amusing to people in the future, if the species has much of a future, as some ancient ideas and beliefs seem to us.

Mostly the context in which I see that kind of thing is wanting to think that there's justice in the afterlife for people who didn't get justice here. I don't really feel a need for that. Usually the "justice" the posters seem to have in mind is awful vindictive revenge. Or perhaps a reward for people who were innocent and good and suffered in their life. Again, I don't feel a need for that. I feel a need to right injustices here now while we're alive and it matters, and I think that perhaps thinking that the rewards and punishments are meted out after death keep people from working for justice and fairness here and now. So the world goes on and human groups commit evil while human individuals just shrug and say "I need to believe that the powerful members of the group will get justice somewhere else and the powerless will get their rewards somewhere else." Or in the more evil version, "I need to believe that the powerful deserve their power and that the powerless deserve what they get." So not enough people do anything and humans just keep on being evil and nasty.

If you look at it from the perspective of believing in a deity - then they can just say "I don't have to do anything; God will take care of it. It's all part of his plan."

I don't know - I just rather enjoy looking reality straight in the face. LOL - I don't make many friends on the non-political boards I visit that way. I'm like "Hey guys, look at this article about the suffering that the US is responsible for." and they get all upset for some reason. But denying reality doesn't make it go away and sure as hell doesn't make anyone's reality better.

I admit that I'm not the activist I want to be - I have to sell my soul for 40 hours a week although I have a much better master than Arby's now. And I have social anxiety and am naturally introverted and shy (I worry that people think I'm a troll or a plant because I don't reply to replies to my posts much - it's because I'm terrified of reading them) and I need a lot of unstructured time to just be me - that's part of why I suffered so much at Arby's with the crazy hours and no sick days (if you called out you had to bring a doctor's note the next day) and no vacation for two years. Another part was being treated like I was less intelligent than your average amoeba and like I was human trash - thus why I usually speak up when I see prejudice against people in certain jobs on here. Of course I generally try to speak up against all generalizations and stereotypes and dehumanizing. Well, most of it - I also admit that I don't speak up about generalizing when it comes to Christianity. I should really start doing that. But then I am only really beginning to learn about Christianity here - I can speak up about bigotry against the South because I've lived here all my life. I can speak up aboout generalizing young people and their shiny iPods because I am young. But I have never even really been to church - someone at work asked if I had a church home and I stared blankly while trying to remember if I'd heard an advertisement for a builder named Church Homes on the radio and then they said, "Oh, sorry, I just assumed because you're so Christ-like."

But at least I can look at reality and try my best to show it to other people and, at the very least, be a witness.

Maybe that's a way I can understand the power of indoctrination - I spent much of my formative years reading about the Holocaust and "Witness!" was burned into me as a way of life.

[knitter4democracy]

26. Sure, I believe it. I'm more comfortable with mystery, though.

I don't have to know beyond the shadow of a single doubt whether or not something is literally true. I'm fine with saying it's a mystery and that as far as I know it's true. I like mystery, which is why I changed from evangelical Christian (where everything has to be black and white with no room for doubt or shades of grey) to Eastern Orthodox Christian where we say we think we have the answer and we think what we're doing is right but that ultimately we aren't God and so can't know with total certainty. Not everyone's comfortable with that kind of wiggle room or squishy faith.

As for reality, it's not like I don't face it. It's not like I'm saying Satan gave me this broken arm or that God wanted me to break my arm (stupid arm). I think it happened because I slipped and fell on the concrete floor of the garage. Not the smartest thing I've ever done. Anyway, I don't try to use my faith to hide from reality, but I do use it when I know I'm not strong enough to face something. A couple of years back, when the doctors were trying to figure out whether my kidney tumor was cancer or not, they let me live for a week with the diagnosis of most likely only having three years left to live. Honestly, it scared the crap out of me. I remember going out on our back deck and just feeling the wind on my face and worrying about our two young children and how that and Hubby would survive. The only thing that got me through that fear was prayer. Eventually, the doctor changed his mind and said it was most likely benign (I know, great answer, right? *sigh*), but that fear still grips me sometimes. When it does, I pray the Jesus Prayer to keep going, to keep loving my kids and my husband, and to get through the fear into a place of peace and acceptance that whatever happens is whatever happens.

I'm just as uncomfortable with evangelical and fundy Christians these days. I grew up in that church and even went to the church's college, and it was through seeing what some did in the name of the faith that made me start looking elsewhere. I'm not saying the Orthodox are perfect, but what's refreshing is that all the priests and religious people I've ever known freely admit that. I like that we say we don't know who's going to Heaven and instead that we need to pray for mercy and focus on loving our neighbor as ourselves.

I look at it this way: everyone's on a life path. The way everyone goes is based on life crap happening to us, decisions, and reactions to what other people say and do to us. Everyone's path is different, and some choose to believe in a higher power of some kind, and some don't. That decision can change as we walk down the path, too. It's purely personal.

Oh, and Arby's sounds like the worst place to work! How awful!! I'm so glad you're not there anymore. Doctor's note for any absence? That's totally inhumane. I'm glad you survived and got out of there. :hug:

[Lydia Leftcoast]

24. No, we just realize that the Ultimate is unknowable and that

different people have explained it in different ways throughout the ages.

We like the imagery, the ritual, the spiritual guidance, and the sense of community.

[crawfish]

22. Hmmm...

So, a partial translation of a partial document that has not yet been thoroughly peer-reviewed is going to rewrite the bible?

This is remarkably little to go on based on the evidence thusfar.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

23. From the Daily Mail, no less

n/t

[charlie]

25. Fashion cycle

Explosive Biblical discoveries are the New Hotness. The 1-2-3 punch of Jesus's family tomb, Judas's Gospel, and the Mystery Tablet are duking it out with Limitless Energy discoveries and garage tinkerers churning out 300mpg cars for top of the sensational news charts. Maybe they'll converge when some goob finds the Ark of the Covenant buried in his basement -- free energy and Biblical proof in one world-roiling package. Corrections can always be printed later, of course.

[bananas]

28. predate (v) what a predator does.