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On the Nature of Free Will, From the Jewish viewpoint

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heidler1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 01:19 AM
Original message
On the Nature of Free Will, From the Jewish viewpoint
http://www.beingjewish.com/soul/freewill.html
This is complex, but more reasonable to me. I'm an Atheist.


Someone wrote me and asked me the following question:

Mordechai,

I could use some information. I understand that the Torah says that G-d has given mankind free will. Could you give the verses of the Hebrew Scriptures on that, and explain the logic?

So I answered him:

Ooh, boy, a tough subject. There is much to be said on that, and much to be said on the actual wording of your question.

In the first place, let me preface by pointing out that Judaism does not need explicit verses in the Scriptures to support a doctrine. All of our Doctrine is revealed in the Oral Law even more than it is revealed in the Written Law. That is how it has always been. Still, everything in the Oral Law is at least alluded to in the Written Law. However, that does not mean that one can always cite the Written Law as proof of a Doctrine of Judaism.

Point number two, before I cite the verses themselves: The Doctrine of Free Will is greatly misunderstood by many people who have not actually studied this concept as taught by Judaism. It is not merely the sum of the words "Free Will." Most people who argue with me over the concept know nothing more than the words "Jews believe in Free Will." I have no idea what those words mean to them, but their repeated objections against the concept bear no relation to what we actually believe. Therefore the question "What is Free Will?" is in itself a valid question, because it is obviously a concept not readily understood by most. This is why I will discuss its meaning before citing verses.

Point number three (and still before I cite any verses): The very fact that Hashem has given us a Torah at all leads us to the inescapable conclusion that we have free will. What logic would there be in the Torah commanding us to do good and desist from evil, if any act we did was out of compulsion? How could the Torah promise us reward or punishment for acts that we are predestined to do? The Torah gives us 613 Commandments and tells us to do good and not to do evil. This means that it is within our power to do either type of act. The Prophets throughout Jewish history exhorted Israel to mend their ways, to do good, to improve, to repent. How can Israel be so directed if it is not in their power?

The Torah tells us that even though we have the ability to do evil, we should not do evil. We should do good. The Torah tells us we have the ability to do good, as I shall attempt to show, with G-d's help.

This does not mean, by the way, that we have the ability and power to do anything we want. Nor does it mean that G-d lets us do every sin we want to do, or every good deed. Sometimes we are prevented from doing the actual act. Yet we have the ability to choose which we will attempt to do. A man in a wheelchair can still choose good, and attempt--or at least desire--to do good, even if it is beyond his physical means. Or he can turn bad, and decide that if he ever gets the chance he will do every evil deed he can think of.

And we do not always even have free will to obey G-d's Commandments. Sometimes we have no choice in the matter at all. Sometimes we are prevented from doing a good deed we desire and plan to do. Nevertheless, G-d counts every good intention as a good act.

And sometimes it is not the act over which we have control, but only over our emotions and desires. That is, we may be forced to fulfill a particular Commandment, but how we approach it is entirely our own decision. We may approach it with joy, and the desire to fulfill G-d's Command, or with annoyance at the "interruption."

It is a detailed and complex concept.

There are matters that are left up to the control of each individual. For example, whether or not any of us chooses to fear G-d. That is entirely up to each individual, in almost every situation. There are times, however, that a person can abrogate that right, by sinning in such a fashion that G-d decrees that this person will never again be granted the opportunity to repent. This is very extreme, however, and not the norm.

There are also mixed cases or destiny and Free Will. Say, for example, I work very hard and plant a field full of seeds. I did the work, and it was a function of my Free Will. But whether or not the planting will be successful, whether it will yield a good crop, is mostly out of my hands. Still, it is not entirely out of my hands. I must still tend to the crop, watering it, weeding it, doing whatever is necessary to its success. If I do this, I can hope for a good crop. But I can't guarantee success. That's up to G-d.

Personal health is akin to that. A person can get sick if G-d wills it, but a person can also make himself sick, either deliberately or through negligence.

A heavenly decree can also decide that you won't catch that bus or plane. If heaven did so decree, it is in fact better for you to have missed that bus or plane. It might be better for you in the materialistic sense: perhaps the plane was doomed, or perhaps something much more subtle that you may never know. Or it might be better for you in the spiritual sense, in many possible different ways. I won't go into that right now.

The point of all this is to show that free will is a complex and varied thing.

As for verses, Maimonides quotes a few on this matter. I shall not quote Maimonides verbatim, but in my own words, using Maimonides' concepts.

The first verse Maimonides quotes is, "Man has now become like one of us in knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:22). We see from this that man knows the difference between good and evil.

Maimonides continues, and explains that humanity has free will in deciding whether or not to be righteous or wicked. G-d does not pre-ordain a person's goodness, nor predetermine whether s/he will be righteous or wicked. Maimonides quotes Jeremiah, in the third Chapter of Lamentations:
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. What Force that "Created this Mighty Universe" wouyld wanna talk to us mere Humans who act like a
Cancer on the only Planet they inhabit?

If anything, that Force should treat us like a pest to be eradicated.....we gatta do sumpthin about our IMAGE man...we ain't looking good at all.
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 01:51 AM
Response to Original message
2. Any Calvinists want to chime in here?
Do any Christians contribute to this forum anymore? I wouldn't be surprised if they all decamped to more salvific quarters.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I doubt that we have any Calvinists here. We might have to settle for Augustinians. {EOM}
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
3. If a believer is to believe that the future is not predestined, then the believer must...
Edited on Thu Jun-19-08 10:56 AM by The Night Owl
...give up the belief that God is omniscient or, at the very least, conclude that God chooses not to be omniscient.

If God is omniscient, then God has foreknowledge of all events. If God has foreknowledge of all events, then the future has been predetermined. If the future has been predetermined, then whether or not humans have the ability to make choices is entirely irrelevant. Indeed, if the future has been predetermined, then God cannot be described as omnipotent because it can't change the future.



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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. The leap of logic
that you make is unjustified.

If God has foreknowledge of all events, then the future has been predetermined.

No.

God knows what will occur, but we still have the freedom to choose. God knows what choices we will make, but He does not control those choices. He could have created us as beings that are entirely pre-programmed to make the right choices. But instead, He gave us free will as independent beings that can choose either to love God or not. That way, if we do choose to love God, that love is meaningful and is not simply an automatic pre-programmed act.

Knowing what's going to happen and causing it to happen are two different things.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Yes. If God perfectly predicts what will happen, then what happens...
Edited on Thu Jun-19-08 11:25 AM by The Night Owl
...cannot deviate from what God predicts. If what happens cannot deviate from what God predicted, then neither God nor its creations have the freedom to make choices.
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heidler1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. One of the main things that drove me to being an Atheist was:
On the one hand if God knows before hand everything I'm going to do then the living test to prove worthiness to go to Heaven is a farce. On the other hand if God does not know what's going to happen then the whole promise of Heaven is in doubt. Some how Calvin could except the farce, I can not.
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. I predict that the sun will shine on the Earth tomorrow
Edited on Thu Jun-19-08 01:49 PM by Zebedeo
If it does, are you going to give me credit for making it happen?

If you do, you are a fool. Knowing and causing are not the same.
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Book Lover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. I predict a person will hit a child
Am I immoral if I allow it?
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Causality is irrelevant to my argument. Let me try this backwards...
Edited on Thu Jun-19-08 02:06 PM by The Night Owl
If the future is not predetermined, then perfect predictions about the future cannot be made. If perfect predictions about the future cannot be made, then God cannot have foreknowledge. If God cannot have foreknowledge, then God is not omniscient.

Forwards and applied...

If God predicts that you will eat a cheeseburger tommorrow and you instead eat something else, then God is not a perfect predictor. If God is not a perfect predictor, then God is not omniscient.
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
12. The person who "determines"
my actions is I.

Your use of the term "predetermined" implies that God is the one doing the determining. That's why I responded on the issue of causation.

If you are instead saying that we are the ones who predetermine our future actions, that is a different argument.

In any event, I take issue with your first statement "If the future is not predetermined, then perfect predictions about the future cannot be made." You provide no support for this assertion, and its truth is by no means obvious. Why do you claim that an omniscient and omnipotent God cannot know an future that is not predetermined?

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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. I don't think you're following my argument.
Edited on Thu Jun-19-08 05:41 PM by The Night Owl
I'm not trying to argue that the future is or is not predetermined. I'm revealing one of the paradoxes associated with the concept of omniscience. In other words, I'm making an abstract argument, not an argument about the way I think things are.

Let us go back to the cheeseburger scenario...

If God predicts that you will eat a cheeseburger tommorrow and you don't, then you will have proven God's prediction to be incorrect. If God is omniscient, then how can it have made the erroneous prediction that you would eat a cheeseburger?





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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. With His perfect foreknowledge,
He knows whether I'll eat a cheeseburger tomorrow, but He doesn't control my decision. It is still mine to make, and I can make it either way - eat or not eat. Though it is completely my decision, God knows which choice I will make.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
16. I am not arguing that God controls your decision.
Edited on Thu Jun-19-08 06:23 PM by The Night Owl
What I am arguing is that if God perfectly predicts your decision, then that prediction reveals that the decision is predetermined.

Think of God's foreknowledge as a perfect painting of the future. For the painting to be perfect, no changes can be made to it. If the painting is altered, then it was not perfect in the first place.
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Zebedeo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. I don't agree
I think you are making a logical leap that is not justified. Just because God can know the future does not mean it is predetermined. We can affect the future with our actions, so in that sense it is not "predetermined."

Maybe we are having different ideas of the term "predetermined." I interpret that term to mean that we cannot affect the future with our actions. In that sense, I do not believe the future is predetermined. I believe that I can affect my future with my actions. I also believe that God knows the future because He is omniscient and not bound by time. There is no inconsistency between those two beliefs, if you take omniscience seriously, which I do.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. To have omniscience is to have perfect foreknowledge.
If God has perfect foreknowledge of what you will choose, then you have to choose what God has forseen because to choose anything else means that God does not have perfect foreknowledge.
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YankeyMCC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 11:26 AM
Response to Original message
7. timshel nt
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
15. In our church, we believe that it is easier to sin than not in a fallen Creation.
We have the choice on whether to sin or not, and that's where free will comes in to play. A good person chooses to do good, to not sin, but the easier choice is to sin.

As for predestination, I look at it like how I parent my children sometimes. Sometimes, I know, just know, they're going to choose to sin (lie or whatever), but I want them to choose to do good, so I let them make the choice. For example, when I catch my son in doing something bad, I always ask him if he did it, giving him the option to lie or tell the truth. The vast majority of the time, he lies, so his lying is pretty predestined, but since I'm working on him telling the truth, I still give him the option so as to teach him that telling the truth is better. God the Father (Mother, if you prefer) does essentially the same thing: we're given the option to choose to do good, even though He already knows which choice we're going to make, but it's still our choice.
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The Night Owl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-19-08 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #15
19. The problem with your analogy is that...
Edited on Thu Jun-19-08 07:14 PM by The Night Owl
...the God you describe has perfect foreknowledge and you do not. What you claim to be foreknowledge of what your son will do is really just a fallible prediction. An fallible prediction can be wrong. A perfect prediction, which is allegedly within God's ability to make, cannot be wrong.
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knitter4democracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-20-08 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. And I believe that it isn't wrong.
I believe that God can see several decision trees down the road that I have only a slight idea of.
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