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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 01:34 AM
Original message
Professor compares Bible to Mein Kampf
Avalos's promotion to full professor comes just in time for the publication of his new book on the Bible later this month. According to the publisher's description, Avalos argues in the book

that our world is best served by leaving the Bible as a relic of an ancient civilization instead of the "living" document most religionist scholars believe it should be. He urges his colleagues to concentrate on educating the broader society to recognize the irrelevance and even violent effects of the Bible in modern life.

Just how extreme Avalos's view of the Bible is can be seen in his previous book, Fighting Words: The Origins of Religious Violence (2005), in which he repeatedly equates the Bible with Hitler's Mein Kampf. Indeed, in a section of the book titled "Scripture: A Zero-Tolerance Argument," Avalos actually suggests that the Bible is worse than Mein Kampf:

In fact, Mein Kampf does not contain a single explicit command for genocide equivalent to those found in the Hebrew Bible... Thus, if all of Mein Kampf is to be rejected simply for its implied genocidal policies, we should certainly reject all of the Bible for some of its explicit and blatant genocidal policies.

http://www.evolutionnews.org/2007/05/iowa_state_promote...

This is a really weird website, but that article, as overly biased as it is, convinced me to get this guy's book.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 01:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. I am certainly curious now!
:D



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Kagemusha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
2. Sure, compared to what Hitler actually did, his book was tame.
So what.
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spoony Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. zero tolerance indeed.
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19jet54 Donating Member (737 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
4. Single minded....
... why not compare it to the Koran, Torah, Tripitaka, Book of Mormon, The Analytics, The Tao Te Ching, or any other hundreds of text - obviously he has a specific "hard on" for the bible? An Atheist does not believe in any God, no matter which faith - I think he is trying to sell his book in a primarily christian country, so attack their perceived god - Snake Oil Salesman - No Sale!
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muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. The Koran and Torah are criticised too
(some the genocidal bits of the Bible he's looking at are common with the Torah).

We acknowledge that some Jewish, Christian, and Muslim theologians accept, especially in more recent times, that some of their theologies are violent. But they do not seem able to surrender general religious traditions that are no more well grounded than the religiously violent ones. In fact, until the Abrahamic religions overthrow the master-slave model in which they were born, we see little progress to be made. Since all religious beliefs are ultimately unverifiable, the greatest scarce resource of all is verifiability. And one way to remedy or minimize unverifiability in any decision-making process, especially that leading to violence, is to eliminate religion from human life altogether.
...
So the question can be posed: Would one act of genocide advocated in Mein Kampf be enough to repudiate the name "Hitlerian" from our church? What if the acts of genocide were on a smaller scale? Let us suppose Hitler had advocated killing only a few hundred people, just as Muhummad is said to have done at Qurayza. Would we still repudiate the label? I would guess that most people in our society would rightly repudiate the Hitlerian Church label even if we were to somehow prove that Hitler actually ordered a few killings, while the rest could be attributed to out-of-control operatives at the local and lower levels.

But suppose now that someone argued that there were some good things within Mein Kampf. Hitler, after all, said he stood for family values. He said he was following God's wishes. He said he loved his fellow community members. I would speculate that most people would still not be convinced that we should keep any part of Mein Kampf, even if there were "good" chapters. The genocide committed under Hitler is so heinous that it would outweigh any supposed good in Mein Kampf.
...
In sum, just as we should reject all of Mein Kampf because of its racist and genocidal policies, we should reject the Bible for any genocidal policies it ever endorse. We should reject other scriptures if they also ever advocate any sort of violence. In fact, Mein Kampf does not contain a single explicit command for genocide equivalent to those found in the Hebrew Bible. Yes, Mein Kampf describes the Jews as an evil to be expelled from Germany, but nowhere in Mein Kampf is there anything as explicit as the policy of killing Canaanites in Deuteronomy 7 and 20 or 1 Samuel 15. Thus, if all of Mein Kampf is to be rejected simply for its implied genocidal policies, we should certainly reject all of the Bible for some of its explicit and blatant genocidal policies.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/05/a_man_after_...
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Hardrada Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 02:15 AM
Response to Original message
5. Boy, I'm not going to get into this except to say
that at least we know who wrote Mein Kampf. I think I might read it sometime. I've already read the Bible several times. That's why I'm under house arrest.
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Kelly Rupert Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 02:22 AM
Response to Original message
6. What you're seeing here is double cynicism.
Edited on Wed May-30-07 02:24 AM by Kelly Rupert
The professor's probably just trolling the academic world--making "bold" statements to get his name out there. It's easier to get recognition by writing memorably provocative statements than it is to spend years toiling on a well-researched, compelling investigation on an esoteric field that ends up being read by a few dozen people. While there's always the possibility that he's just got an axe to grind, I'd think that he's probably just a cynic trying to make a ruckus.

Now, the second instance of cynicism. You're looking at a website operated by the Discovery Institute, a creationist organization intended to set up intelligent design as a reasonable-looking alternative to science. They do this in two ways: by wrapping creationism in all the trappings of science and hoping that laypeople won't be able to tell the difference, and by picking out examples of academics (in any field) looking like crackpots. The idea, of course, is for the ID nuts to end up looking acceptably reasonable by comparison. By linking to this--even though it isn't your goal--you're giving them eyeballs.
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 02:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. He hasn't written a lot of books...
Five or six. One dealing with illness and health care in the ancient world, another linking religion and violence and a few others. You're probably right that he's attempting to be provocative and it sure got my attention. And it wasn't my intention to give that site traffic. :)
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Christa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
9. I could not have said it better:
Edited on Wed May-30-07 05:20 PM by Christa
A God of love, a God of wrath, a God of jealousy, a God of bigotry, a God of vulgar tirades, a God of cheating and lying yes, the Christian God is given all of these characteristics, and isn't it a wretched mess to be offered to men in this twentieth century? The beginning of wisdom, the beginning of humanism, the beginning of progress is the rejection of this absurd, extravagantly impossible myth of a God.

[E. Haldeman-Julius, "The Meaning Of Atheism"
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-30-07 10:44 PM
Response to Original message
10. Your link is to a website of the anti-evolutionist "Discovery Institute"
They are a gaggle of wingnuts who specialize in huff-n-puff personal attacks as part of their anti-evolutionist wedge-issue propagandizing

Some of (so-called "senior fellow") William Dembski's claptrap is debunked here:

In defense of Hector Avalos

~snip~ On the Discovery Institutes Evolution News and Views web site, the headline screams, Iowa State Promotes Atheist Professor Who Equates Bible with Mein Kampf While Denying Tenure to ID Astronomer. Now this is really curious, for a couple of reasons. First, its rank hypocrisy: the DI wants to claim that Gonzalez has been persecuted for his ideology, and so their tactic isyou guessed itto attempt to persecute Hector for his ideology. Second, its rank hypocrisy: the DI constantly claims that ID is about science, not about religion, so why should they care one whit about Hectors view of the Bible? ~snip~

The DI post goes on to grab a few other quotations from Fighting Words, and to present them without any analysis whatsoever. They are presented, out of context, simply for shock value. The DI is counting on readers to respond emotionally, out of offenseand is counting on readers not to bother to ask whether Hectors statements are accurate or inaccurate. Now it just so happens that I disagree with some of Hectors value judgments, but those value judgments are not self-evidently wrong (any more than mine are self-evidently right), and therefore tossing them up on a web page as part of a smear campaign is completely inappropriate. And William Dembskis atrocious attempt to try to make Hector look like a dishonest CV-padder is beneath contempt. ~snip~

http://www.heardworld.com/higgaion/?p=621
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MistressOverdone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-02-07 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
11. Seems this guy is out for shock value
and Mein Kampf was one man's philosophy. Apples and oranges.
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
12. The Bible is far worse than Mein Kampf
although the Bible is where Hitler got all his genocidal hatred of Jews.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. German culture
and political opportunism is where Hitler got all his genocidal hatred of Jews.
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Obviously you have no clue
Edited on Sun Jun-03-07 09:55 AM by Nunyabiz
Hitler was a devout Christian and avid Martin Luther reader.
His hatred for the Jews came directly from Martin Luther & Christian dogma.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/luther.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/MartinLuther-HitlersSpir...
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I suspect you've read neither Mein Kampf nor the Bible--
or much in the way of history. Martin Luther was an anti-Semite and an apologist for tyranny, but it's interesting that other individuals and peoples, with the same Lutheran Bible and theology, did everything they could to rescue and protect Jews. The difference was Hitler's Aryan ideology, which they did not share. Where is that found in the Bible and Christian theology? Chapter and verse, please.
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. Read the Bible many times and Mein Kampf once
and have research religion for over 34 years.
Christianity consist of over 33,800 different sects each of which "interpret" the Bible/s differently.
There is no ONE way the Bible is interpreted which is why Martin Luther got what he did out of it and why Hitler believed what he did.
What the bible actually says is moot.
It is all mythology re badged from Babylon, Sumeria and Kemet anyway.

as for "Aryan Theology" that came directly from Vedic Brahmanism from India which was also incorporated into Christianity many 100s of years later. The strongest Christian sect today that adheres to "Aryan Theology" is "Christian Identity" and also "Aryan Nations".

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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. You do realize--
no, obviously you don't--that "Aryan" in the context of Indo-Iranian culture and "Aryan" in the context of Nazi ideology refer to entirely different things?

as for "Aryan Theology" that came directly from Vedic Brahmanism from India which was also incorporated into Christianity many 100s of years later.

Do tell? Chapter and verse, please.
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. again shove you "Chapter & verse"
You don't understand a damn thing.
Christianity comes from these older Pagan religions of Sumeria, Babylon, Kemet etc there is nothing in the Christian bible that is exclusive or original at all.
The NT is an Astrological Drama written in the old pagan passion play style, most all of the characters are allegorical.

Jesus = the SUN
Mary = Virgo
Joseph = Bootes
John the Baptist = Aquarius
The 2 fishermen = Pisces


and so on.

Not going to spend much more time on this with someone that clearly has no idea what they are talking about and refuses to accept factual reality.
Enjoy living in your delusional psychosis.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. In other words, you can't make your case.
Thought so.

Toodles.
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. In other words I already have made it
and you are incapable of understanding it
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Well. now, let's see.
You claim to have read the Bible "several times" and to have "researched religion for 34 years." Yet when asked to produce one small, specific piece of evidence for your assertions, the best you can do is "shove you chapter and verse." If juvenile attempts at insult and atheist headbanger websites are all you have in your repertoire, I most sincerely suggest you fall back on the old standards: "The dog ate my essay, Ma'am," or "My research paper's on this disk--really, really, truly, truly--it just won't print." (Or failing those, "Oh, ma'am, my grandmother died and I just couldn't get it done. :cry:")
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
33. There is really no point in wasting time proving you wrong
as a Christian you will simply deny everything regardless how much irrefutable evidence is laid before you.
Been there and done that 100s of times the past decade or so online. I have come to the conclusion its just not worth the effort anymore.
People like you are not interested in learning anything so there is really no point in beating a dead horse.
You will continue living in your fantasy world and I will continue living in factual reality.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Christians are well known for sporting pentagrams.
Right.

Boopsie, if you can take the time to try to insult me in your oh-so-devastating high-school sophomore fashion, you can take the time to provide a quick reference that actually does prove your case. Since you've made no effort to do that, I'm assuming you simply can't. It's up to you to prove you know more about the Bible than you do about the Soviet Union. :evilgrin:
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. sigh
The Pentagram was used before the cross BY CHRISTIANS, it symbolized the so called 5 wounds of the mythical Christ.
Christians did not start using the cross until after 200 CE.

Naturally I assumed you knew that, obviously I was mistaken.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. And the last time you saw a pentagram on a church steeple was. . .?
n/t
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. what does that have to do with anything?
What I said is fact, live with it.
How many churches have you seen that are 1800+ years old?
Actually I should have known better since Christians know so little about Christianity anyway.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Good question.
How many churches have you seen that are 1800+ years old.

(Hint: the oldest church building known was discovered in Megiddo, Israel. It's between 1600-1700 years old.)

The oldest Christian symbols are the fish and the chi rho. The pentagram was used during the medieval period to signify not only the five wounds of Christ but the five senses, the five mysteries of each round of the Rosary, and as an emblem of Mary. Gawain carries it on his shield in Gawain and the Green Knightwhere the distinctions between Mary and the Goddess blur considerably. You're really flailing about rather badly, here.
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. LOL
You basically just said everything I did.

Although the Pentagram was used BEFORE the cross also as they got it from Gnostic and Kabbalistic symbolism.
Which all obviously proves my point that the Pentagram was used just as much by early Christians as by any other religion.
You don't comprehend very well do you?

I think I'm done wasting time with you, you're like trying to teach my cat to speak, just not going to happen.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. Aww, don't run away.
So far you've been unable to substantiate even one of your claims, but who knows, you could still get lucky. The night is young.
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 09:12 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. Neither have you
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #16
18. Speaking of Mein Kampf
Since apparently you haven't read it or if you did you didn't comprehend it allow me to quote a few passages.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

""My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)





"I was not in agreement with the sharp anti-Semitic tone, but from time to time I read arguments which gave me some food for thought.

At all events, these occasions slowly made me acquainted with the man and the movement, which in those days guided Vienna's destinies: Dr. Karl Lueger and the Christian Social Party.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)



"The man and the movement seemed 'reactionary' in my eyes. My common sense of justice, however, forced me to change this judgment in proportion as I had occasion to become acquainted with the man and his work; and slowly my fair judgment turned to unconcealed admiration. Today, more than ever, I regard this man as the greatest German mayor of all times.

-Adolf Hitler speaking about Dr. Karl Lueger of the Christian Social Party (Mein Kampf)
"



"How many of my basic principles were upset by this change in my attitude toward the Christian Social movement!

My views with regard to anti-Semitism thus succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)"



the unprecedented rise of the Christian Social Party... was to assume the deepest significance for me as a classical object of study.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)





"Even less could I understand how the Christian Social Party at this same period could achieve such immense power. At that time it had just reached the apogee of its glory.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)



"Thus, Protestantism will always stand up for the advancement of all Germans as such, as long as matters of inner purity or national deepening as well as German freedom are involved, since all these things have a firm foundation in its own being; but it combats with the greatest hostility any attempt to rescue the nation from the embrace of its most mortal enemy, since its attitude toward the Jews just happens to be more or less dogmatically established.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)



"It recognized the value of large-scale propaganda and was a virtuoso in influencing the psychological instincts of the broad masses of its adherents.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)




The anti-Semitism of the new movement was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.

-Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)



If Dr. Karl Lueger had lived in Germany, he would have been ranked among the great minds of our people.

-Adolf Hitler speaking about the leader of the Christian Social movement (Mein Kampf)




I can go on & on but you get the idea Mein Kampf was inspired by Christian theology without any question whatsoever.





































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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. I notice you shut up about Mein Kampf & Christian dogma
Thought so.

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kwassa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. Oh boy! Another "Hitler was a Christian" thread! It's been so long ....
and always takes a newbie to bring it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin\'s_Law

Godwin's Law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies<1>) is an adage that Mike Godwin formulated in 1990. The law states:

As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.<2>

Godwin's Law does not question whether any particular reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate. It is precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued,<3> that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. And another "Humphries says it, I believe it,
that settles it" thread, too, all in one. :rofl:
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #24
31. Can deny the facts all you wish
Christians are good at that.

There is zero doubt that Hitler was in fact a devout Christian as were most in the Nazi party this is well documented.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #14
26. How odd! To support your view that "Hitler was a devout Christian" you link to a site
that begins with the Hitler quote

I do insist on the certainty that sooner or later -- once we hold power -- Christianity will be overcome ...

The Nazis had no sympathy for Christianity and intended to eliminate it. Anyone wanting thee facts should investigate, for example, such matters as how the Nazis treated the Jehovah's Witnesses, the existence of the huge "priest block" at Dachau, and the bizarre "de-Judaicized" Bible used by the Nazi churches in which "Honour your Fuehrer and master!" became one of the ten commandments

http://www.holocaust-trc.org/Jehovah.htm
http://www.decentfilms.com/sections/reviews/1625
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/new...


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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #14
27. If you want to blame Luther for Nazi anti-semitism, please explain ...
... why solidly Lutheran Denmark resisted the exterminationists

http://www.auschwitz.dk/Denmark.htm
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Meshuga Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. We can't blame Luther for Hitler's actions
But we can certainly say that Luther was an enabling influence. Click here for Luther's advice on dealing with Jews.

And check out these other Luther's quotes:


Whenever you encounter a real Jew, you may in good faith make the sign of the cross and openly and fearlessly pronounce the words `This is a veritable devil'. Therefore, do not doubt and never forget, beloved Christians, that apart from Satan himself, you possess no more deadly poisonous, and dreadful enemy than a real Jew. I know that. They poison wells, kidnap and maltreat children.

"Even with no further evidence than the Old Testament, I would maintain, and no person on earth could alter my opinion, that the Jews as they are today are veritably a mixture of all the depraved and malevolent knaves of the whole world over, who have been dispersed in all countries, similarly to the Tartars and gypsies and such folk, to afflict the different nations with their usury, to spy upon others and to betray, to poison wells, to deceive and kidnap children, in short to practice all kinds of dishonesty and injury."

What is good in us Christians, they ignore; what is wrong in us Christians the Jews take advantage of. The breath of the Jews reeks. Their rabbis teach them that theft and robbery is no sin

The Jews professing to be surgeons or doctors deprive the Christians who make use of their medicaments of health and prosperity for such Jewish doctors believe they find especial favour with their God if they torment and furtively kill Christians. And we, fools that we are, even turn for succour to our enemies and their evil ways in the times when our lives are in danger, which is indeed sorely trying God's patience.

The Jews are malignant snakes and imps. Whoever would like to cherish such adders and puny devilswho are the worst enemies of Christ and us allto befriend them and to do them honour simply in order to be cheated, plundered, robbed, disgraced, and forced to howl and curse and suffer every kind of evil, to him I would commend the Jews. And if this be not enough, let him tell the Jews to use his mouth as a privy, or else crawl into the Jew's hind parts, and there worship the holy thing, so as afterwards to be able to boast of having been merciful, and of having helped the Devil and his progeny to blaspheme our dear Lord.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
36. R/T has gone over this territory repeatedly
There's no question that Luther wrote an ugly anti-semitic piece in 1543, a few years before he died in 1546.

Although Luther apparently had theological motives, the moral attitude that one should take towards the tract itself is quite clear: it is a nasty thing, thoroughly deserving condemnation.

That said, there remains the distinct question of what historical attitude one should take towards it. In particular, to address the question of the degree to which the 1543 tract was "enabling" for the Nazis, one should compare it to other literature of the time, should ask how far it reflected views Luther expounded over any extended period, should consider how widely it was reproduced over the intervening centuries and whether it played any significant role in the Lutheran churches before the Nazi period, and should examine how much effect it actually had on shaping the Nazi exterminationist ideology.

The 1543 work was reprinted about fifty years after Luther's death but otherwise seems to have been largely forgotten until the Nazis dredged it up to wave at their rallies. The relative obscurity of the work is understandable, as it rather conflicts with Luther's earlier and much more tolerant comments, and as it does not exhibit the theological views which won Luther a following. While it seems possible that it circulated in anti-semitic circles, it cannot have been used as a standard Lutheran theological text: the post-Reformation Lutheran countries did not typically exterminate their Jewish population long before 1900.

Violent European anti-semitism meanwhile has had a long career, including (for example) the depradations of the German Crusade in 1096 or the Prague pogrom of 1389. It is important, but not necessarily easy, to understand the real social forces leading to such phenomena -- and it is always likely that the personal justifications provided in public merely mask other motives, such as an idiotic boredom seeking relief through murder or a jealous desire to confiscate property.

European anti-semitism proceeded irregularly, and anyone who is interested in understanding such events should consider historical specifics: why, for example, were the authorities collusive in such infractions of good order only at certain times? Concerning the Nazi exterminations, one must therefore ask What made these atrocities possible? As in the Balkan atrocities of the 1990's, one evident feature is a period of hate-propaganda and divisive organizing that extends over a period of years before the worst atrocities are committed. German Wodanists, including members of the Thule Society, engaged in extensive anti-semitic organizing in the Weimar period: motivated by a Volkish racist ideology, they formed the original core of the Nazi party. Since their theological views were anti-Christian, it is not clear why anyone would think their beliefs originated with Luther.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #14
29. And while you're at it
perhaps you'd like to explain why the worst persecution of Jews post-WWII was carried out by the officially atheist Soviet Union.

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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. The Soveit union was not Atheist
They were Russian Orthodox, and nobody has ever in history killed anyone becuase of Atheism.
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Goddess help us.
You don't even know the difference between Imperial Russia and the USSR. :rofl:
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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. you are making a fool out of yourself
You said "post WWII" and Soviet Union therefore my statement has nothing to do with "Imperial Russia"
The Soviet Union is largely Russian Orthodox, and I believe Muslim are next largest.
There are less Atheist in Russia than in the USA, always has been.



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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 07:25 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Ahem!
Edited on Sun Jun-03-07 07:35 PM by okasha
The role of religion in the daily lives of Soviet citizens varied greatly. Two-thirds of the Soviet population, however, had no religious beliefs. About half the people, including members of the ruling Communist Party and high-level government officials, professed atheism. For the majority of Soviet citizens, therefore, religion seemed irrelevant.

Policy toward religions in practice
Soviet policy toward religion was based on the ideology of Marxism-Leninism, which made atheism the official doctrine of the Soviet Union. As the founder of the Soviet state V. I. Lenin put it:

Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class.<1>

Marxism-Leninism has consistently advocated the control, suppression, and, ultimately, the elimination of religious beliefs. In the 1920s and 1930s, such organizations as the League of the Militant Godless ridiculed all religions and harassed believers. Atheism was propagated through schools, communist organizations (such as the Young Pioneer Organization), and the media.


http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet...

Edited to add: BTW, the Soviet Union no longer is of any persuasion. It doesn't exist anymore. Missed a few newscasts, have ya?



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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #35
38. YOU are whom called it the Soviet Union
I merely choose not to correct you again.
They are a "secular" nation just like WE are in the USA, basically just means they are not a Theocracy.
But the vast majority of Russia are religious and most of them are Russian Orthodox.

http://countrystudies.us/russia/37.htm
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okasha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Let's take it real, real slow.
Once upon a time, there was a country called the Soviet Union.

It was an officially atheist country.

It persecuted Jews. It sent them to jail. It murdered Jewish intellectuals. It refused to allow Jews to leave the country.

It was a bad place.

Bad, bad, bad.

The Soviet Union no longer exists. Now the largest part of it is called Russia, just like it used to be before it was the Soviet Union. Now people are free to go to church if they want to. (Well, mostly.)

Unfortunately for the people of Russia, the former head of the secret police is now President. It's still a bad place.

Bad, bad, bad.

It still persecutes anyone Mr. President Putin feels like persecuting. Right now that's mostly Chechyns. Chechyns are mostly Muslim. Sort of like the "New Jews."

Mr. Putin goes to church these days. But that's okay. There are still atheists around to hate Muslims.

We should all be very grateful to Sam Harris and Christopher Hitchens. Without them, Mr. Bush and Mr. Putin would have to work even harder to keep bigotry alive and well.

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Nunyabiz Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-03-07 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. It was an officially "Secular" country
Edited on Sun Jun-03-07 08:29 PM by Nunyabiz
Virtually every country in the world has persecuted Jews.

Sadly the USA is quickly becoming exactly the same way with these Neofascist in charge.
Harris, Dawkins, Dennet, and Hitchens are merely telling the truth.
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-04-07 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
48. The Stuff in the Bible is much worse than Hitler - see God's 'Wanted' poster for details, documents
YHVH repeatedly orders his Hebrew troops to kill everyone in a town: women, children, even the fucking pets, for chrissake!

WANTED: BIBLE GOD
FOR WAR CRIMES AND CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY
SEE POSTER AND EXTENSIVE DOCUMENTATION OF HIS HORRIFIC ATROCITIES
WANTED: YHVH FOR MASS MURDER, GENOCIDE, INCITEMENT TO RAPE, ETC
http://www.crewstopia.com/doug/nuremberg.html
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