Tomorrow is my mother's funeral and she chose to have it at

[erinlough]

the church we all grew up in. I am no longer a member, but I support her wishes completely. That is the background for the story I am about to relate. Today the minister of the church, Lutheran, came to my sister and asked her to clarify some dates for him. He questioned the date of my parents marriage, and the date of my oldest sister's birth.

It is the truth that my mother, 87, was pregnant when she was married. In shame she lied about the date of her wedding to everyone and that burden caused her great pain and shame for 60 years. When we were planning my parents 60th wedding anniversary mom, in tears, told us the truth. We all talked about how sad it seemed now to think that she had kept her secret so long and suffered so with the shame she felt. It was very emotional for her, but she felt good that it meant nothing to us, her daughters, and that the secret was no more.

Now this sanctimonious ass brings it all up again, and for what????? My sister asked him why he needed clarification and he couldn't answer. I know some of you might say he was writing his sermon, but I think he was just being nosy. Then he comes to the funeral home and insists on doing a prayer with the family even though we told him it wouldn't be necessary.

This is why I am no longer a christian. I have had other incidents with clergy that have been as bad with judging. I am writing to this forum because I know some of you are members of the clergy and I know you mean well, but for goodness sake have some feelings. The religion seems to give some people the feeling they have the right to judge and that judgment brings pain to the judged. If there is indeed a judge I will meet him in another world, but I will not tolerate it here on earth. Here, you are just like me, no better, no worse.

[realisticphish]

1. in the lutheran church i used to go to

NOONE would ask a question like that, my god. I'm agnostic, but be careful not to paint all clergy like that... I mean, just look at Rev Cheesehead :)

[Bjornsdotter]

2. Sounds like a pastor

....I had during confirmation class. That jackass told me my parents weren't really married because my Mom was 7 months pregnant at the time of their wedding.

I think they need a good swift kick in the ass.

:hug: I'm very sorry about the loss of your Mom. :hug:

[Botany]

3. Let it go .... and remember your mom

Whatever reason the minister had to ask those questions should
never come between you and your feelings for your mom.

all the best!

Judge not least you will not be judged.

[erinlough]

7. He could never even touch my feelings for my mom,

Thanks for the advice though, it does make sitting through the service tomorrow tough.

[Botany]

12. As you travel from birth to death the jerks are many the true friends are ...

... few. The short time sitting through the service and keeping your
cool is a way to show love for your mom.

Elwood P. Dowd: Well, I've wrestled with reality for 35 years, Doctor, and I'm happy to state I finally won out over it.

[efhmc]

4. Is this a Missouri Synod church?

[erinlough]

5. worse.....Wisconsin

[efhmc]

17. Well I love my Lutheran Church, which preaches and practices Christ's

love for all people. It is an ELCA church. I am so sorry that you were treated this way in your time of grief. Sometimes I really wonder if some so called Christians are even capable of understanding the message of love and acceptance of all people that Christ came to deliver to all humanity.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

25. Well, consider the source

The Wisconsin Synod is the fundamentalist wing of the Lutheran Church. I looked at their website once, and they're just plain frickin' nuts in their exclusivity and pride.

I can't imagine an ELCA pastor being so judgmental.

My condolences on the loss of your mother.

[John Q. Citizen]

6. I'm not a Christian because I don't buy the story. Dead people don't

return and virgins don't give birth.

Sorry the guy was a jerk. I've known some very nice clergy, very thoughtful and helpful, but I'm sure it's like any other proffession, there are some assholes too.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

8. Jesus would've (gently) kicked his ass.

Sorry you all have to put up with that, on top of your loss.

Sending good thoughts your way.

-Cat

[erinlough]

10. LOL, and thank you

[MADem]

9. Get the bastard...but do it later. After all this is over. Tell him that God will remember the

miserable shit he laid on your family for his own selfish and torturous reasons in their time of pain. Tell him that God sees him, even when he's got his magic collar on. Tell him God doesn't approve of him wearing God's stripes -- he doesn't have the rank, so he shouldn't pretend he does. He can lie to you, and he can bully you, but he can't lie to God, and he sure as hell can't bully God, either.

What a baaastid.

[DCKit]

11. Hear, Hear! "Thou shalt NOT judge.... that's my perogative"

Seems off topic, but reminds me of a time when I went to the Dr. for a urinary infection and the MF wouldn't leave me alone until he had all the nasty details of my last sexual experience.

They're both sadistic, holier-than-thou FREAKS

[MADem]

13. Baaaastids. Ya shoulda said it was with a ghost!!

A dirty, nasty, naughty ghost!! Or one of his relatives!!! Ha--his WIFE...yeah, that's the ticket!!!!

I can't stand people who use their little bit of power for sheer meanness. Ya wanna wish them a flat tire and a flat cellphone battery in the middle of nowhere on the coldest, rainest day of the year.

[WritersBlock]

14. I would hand the sanctimonious prick a stone, then invite him to cast it

since he's obviously so much holier than anyone else.

I am sorry for your loss.

:hug:

[havocmom]

19. Damn fine idea

And easily done too. :thumbsup:

[Maat]

15. What a shame you have to go through that ..

I appreciate you honoring her wishes. Strength and positive energy headed your way!

What a shame he is so misguided!

Hugs to you!

Your mom sounds like a wonderful woman - and tomorrow we honor her. She certainly had nothing to be ashamed of, and daughters to be very proud of. I'm glad that you were able to reassure her before she transitioned.

[erinlough]

18. As my dad said today....she was a hell of a woman

She was honest, compassionate, and a democrat. Who could ask for anything more. She fostered a belief in everyone she touched that they were capable of great things and that they were loved.

[jaysunb]

16. My condolances.....

for both the loss of your Mom and the unfortunate need to deal with the lower form of human nature...

[Just-plain-Kathy]

20. First of all, I'm so sorry for your lost.

I lost my Dad in 2002. My (then) 73 year old mother who goes to mass alone every week and has been making donations to the same church for at least 45 years was charged $450 for a half hour mass.

My nephew played the organ, there were no alter boys, it was early August yet there was no air-conditioning... there was zero expense to the church other then the lights. ... I was shocked.

I feel that religious organizations should start paying taxes. Their private schools cost close to $800 a month per student with 30 kids in a class...that's $24,000 a month, times that by 10 months, that's $240,000 a year income per classroom. They charge each HS student $100 to have parking space... They charge $10 every Friday if your kid wants to "dress down". Then you have to donate to fund raisers (which usually is for the upkeep of the school). ...They pay their teachers squat.

They close churches in poor neighborhoods and build mega-churches in rich. ...I feel like religion has bee high-jack by a bunch of thieves.

:rant:

[Wheezy]

21. I'm so sorry.

My husband is a pastor of a Christian church. Those questions that pastor asked are completely, utterly out of line!!

How horrible for you -- I, too, have experienced much judging from Christian clergy, and some very horrid people.

I have also found some of the most generous and accepting people there -- people who mimic the actions of Jesus Christ. I hope you will meet some of the good ones some day.

Many hugs and positive thoughts to you during this tough time. I am also very sorry your parents were burdened with this secret for so long -- and sorry that it was likely religious reasons that kept them and others from acceptance and comfort.

[trotsky]

22. My condolences on your loss,

and for having to deal with this sanctimonious ass. I think you are exactly right, some people need to judge others and religion gives them the excuse - even when there's a verse or two about specifically NOT doing that.

[erinlough]

26. Thanks to all for your great advice and thoughts

Well, it's over and it went about as I thought. He gave an Easter sermon about doubting Thomas, which must have been something he had laying around, because it had nothing to do with Mom, however he at least didn't embarrass us. A friend joked that the families attitude must have precipitated the doubting Thomas thing as it was a call for all of us to come back to the fold. We had a good laugh about it and relief that we will never have to see him again.

After the funeral there was a car for him and I suppose the family was supposed to ride in it with him. My dad was asked if he wanted to ride with him and he said, no I'll ride with someone else. So the ass rode alone in the big white limo and we all took our own cars. I hope he enjoyed it.

I wonder why my mom chose her funeral there with him, she didn't even like him...Oh, one funny thing, My aunt is 89 and has had a stroke but she can still talk. We are at the grave site and he starts speaking again, all of a sudden her little squeeky voice comes through as she talks to one of her children, "who the hell does he think he's kidding, Roma didn't believe like that!" It was louder than she intended and her family was embarrassed, but it was the first time all day I actually smiled.

Thanks again for the understanding

[trotsky]

27. What a fitting ending for the pastor.

Wonder if he will ever be able to connect the dots. Glad to hear it ended reasonably well. Tell your aunt I'd like to buy her a drink. :)

[ms liberty]

23. I'm so sorry you had to deal with that at a time like this!

my MIL's husband is a Lutheran minister, with a doctorate in Theology. I cannot under any circumstances imagine him asking a question like that. He has way too much compassion and love for people, he's kind and caring in a way that is very Christ-like. I'm pretty anti-organized religion, but he's one of the good guys. There are a few out there, and I wish you had gotten one of them instead!

[Book Lover]

24. Was Mary not pregnant when Joseph and she married?

I like the stone idea above. I may start carrying one around for times like this.

Please accept my deepest condolences for your family's loss.

[Critters2]

28. I can't begin to understand this guy's behavior

First of all, I've never scrutinized an obituary or history closely enough to notice that someone's child would have been sonceived before her marriage. Secondly, it wouldn't matter if I did figure that out. A funeral is for giving thanks for, and celebrating, a person's life, and offering some comfor to her loved ones. This man's behavior was completely inappropriate. Period.

I'm sorry he raised these difficult issues for you at a time when you had much more important concerns to deal with. And I'm sorry that your mother felt the shame that she carried.

The more I think of this, the more it boggles my mind that a pastor would raise such an issue. Really. Just boggling.

Happily, I'm not a detail person, so I wouldn't have noticed. Or cared.

Sorry for this awful experience.

[Dervill Crow]

29. I am so, so sorry for your loss and for having to put up with that nonsense.

At my mother's funeral the assistant pastor of my church did the service, and if my mom had been a card-carrying born-again Christian it would have been the good news of her eternal life, but it was more an announcement that she was going straight to hell. Or at least that is the way I took it. I've since come to the conclusion that he was just an idiot and used poor judgment, so to speak.

[JerseygirlCT]

30. Seems like some pretty crummy pastoral care there

And I agree -- I'm having trouble seeing WHY he needs to know. Even if for a sermon/eulogy... is that much detail really important in the whole scheme of your mother's life?

I'm very sorry for your loss. And for this really unfortunate treatment, especially at such a time.

There are assholes everywhere, though. It's not just clergy. And some -- many -- members of the clergy are wonderful, warm and caring people. I've been fortunate to know a few of those.