More trouble for theism?

[Modem Butterfly]

http://news.findlaw.com/ap_stories/other/1110/2-27-2005/20050227180003_01.html

WICHITA, Kan. (AP) - They worshipped next to Dennis L. Rader for years, sharing the same pews and singing from the same hymnals. They knew him as a Cub Scout leader, a respected church official, a kind friend. Now, members of Christ Lutheran Church must confront the possibility that 59-year-old Rader is something else: The BTK serial killer, blamed for 10 deaths in the Wichita area from 1974 to 1991.

"We feel dismay, anger, devastation, utter shock and disbelief. The very foundation of our faith is shaken," Gerald Mansholt, bishop of the Central States Synod of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, said during Sunday's service.

[TlalocW]

1. Well, at least

They didn't have a homosexual in the position of Cub Scout leader - praise Jaaaaaaay-sussssss!

TlalocW

[Modem Butterfly]

4. Kill him, but mustn't kiss him

What's the command for "cynical smilie"?

[Stunster]

2. If atheists mudering tens of millions,

as happened during the 20th century, doesn't bear on the truth or falsity of atheism, how does the BTK serial killer case bear on the truth or falsity of theism?

And that's assuming that he really is a theist, and wasn't just leading a double life in that respect as he obviously was in others.

Seems a fucking lousy 'argument' to me, if it's supposed to be an argument at all.

[Modem Butterfly]

3. Oh, a double life

Those alleged "atheists" you claim murdered millions were leading double lives, too. They were actually theists deep in their hearts. Just because you sleep in the garage doesn't make you a car.

:bounce:

[Stunster]

5. I didn't say he was leading a double life

I said it was fucking lousy argument either way.

I know it can be hard to pay attention, but it helps.

That tens of millions of people were killed by atheists in the 20th century doesn't prove the existence of God.

It may show that atheists who use killings by theists as an argument against theism are illogical, or at least guilty of double standards, however.

[Modem Butterfly]

6. Did I say you did?

No. But those alleged "atheists" you were talking about were. They weren't real atheists, they were theists. Every last one of them.

Wow, that was fun!

:bounce:

[Stunster]

8. No, it wasn't. It was incredibly

:boring:

[Modem Butterfly]

10. Well, I wasn't speak for you.

I got a :kick: out of using that argument.

[Stunster]

11. You call that an 'argument'?

ROTFLMAO.

:7

[Modem Butterfly]

13. Yes, I do

Granted, it's not as brillant as "A muslim raped a girl after the tsunami, therefor atheism has a problem" but it's mine, damn it.

[arwalden]

16. OMG... You're Making That Up...

(aren't you?) ... too funny!

[Modem Butterfly]

17. Heh! I wish!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=214&topic_id=5387&mesg_id=5387

[arwalden]

22. Wow.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Modem Butterfly]

20. Translation:

Bad atheist! Bad, bad, BAD sarcastic atheist!

No afterlife for you!

[arwalden]

21. Well, Stunster... I'd Have To Disagree With You There...

I think that Modem Butterfly has more of a "clue" than you might imagine. A message like that sells her far to short. It's insulting and it's unfair. She doesn't deserve that.

-- Allen

[arwalden]

12. It's Not Very Likely That A Theist Will Become Atheistic ...

... simply because someone threatens them or because they feel pressure to do so. They may *say* they are atheists... they may *claim* to renounce their faith... but they still believe, secretly.

[Modem Butterfly]

14. They claim to be atheists 'cause of the cool factor

All the cool kids are doing it.

Come on, try some free thought. The first hit's free.

All your friends have tried it.

I won't tell the other boys, I promise.

And I'll still respect you in the morning.

[AZCat]

15. They say marijuana causes jazz...

I wonder what atheism causes? :shrug:

[muriel_volestrangler]

19. It's not an argument, it's a statement of fact

The original poster was pointing out that direct quotes from theists were saying their faith was shaken. Whether or not the murderer was really a Christian is irrelevant. What has happened it that some more Christians have realised that some people may claim to believe in God, but might in fact be lying. If they extrapolate this to the people who taught them about Christianity, directly or via books, they realise their faith may be built on sand, so to speak.

[Stunster]

24. So what?

The atheists who murdered tens of millions were proven liars. It has not been proven that the alleged BTK killer has been lying about his belief in Christianity. Perhaps he believes in it intellectually. Perhaps he doesn't. It's hard to know at this stage what he really believes.

A lot of people rejected atheistic materialism when the fact that Communist leaders were corrupt liars was revealed. For example, all kinds of supernaturalist ideas, from astrology to reincarnation became popular in post-Soviet Russia, and Christianity is experiencing tremendous growth in post-Maoist China. Given how the people of those countries and others have been lied to by self-proclaimed atheistic regimes, then those people may be increasingly likely to extrapolate from the proven lies about politics and economics to a conviction that they may have been lied to about religion as well. The Communist ideology is in bad repute, and part of that ideology was anti-religious and materialistic. It seems that continued acceptance of anti-religious and materialist ideas may have been adversely affected in those countries.

But so what?

I'm merely pointing that there's no logical bearing between the belief systems of murderers and the truth or falsity of their belief systems. So if members of the church that this serial killer belonged to cease to believe in God as a result of his exposure, it will be for an irrational motive.

If there was independent evidence that Church leaders had consciously propagated Christianity while believing it to be false, then one might have some reason for disbelieving Christianity. But the BTK case doesn't yield any such evidence, and the true character of what the alleged killer's beliefs are is unknown at this date.

Let's say he does believe in Christianity. Then this would provide no evidence of lying by Church leaders.

Let's say he doesn't believe in Christianity. Then this would provide no evidence of lying by Church leaders.

[Modem Butterfly]

25. Or worse, murderers might very well also be devout theists

As this man apparently was.

Xians in particular seem very quick to point out that people who do things they don't like are not actually Xians. However, it is entirely possible that this particular psychopath, and others like him, are actually very devout Xians, aside from their murderous habits. Psychopaths have a tendancy to compartmentalize their lives, well, I suppose all humans do, psychos are just better at it than most of us. The flip side of this is the idea that an atheist who does a bad thing is automatically representative of all atheists. In other words, such an individual might claim that BTK is not a real Xian and is therefore not representative of Xianity even if he were, but Stalin is a real atheist and is therefore representative of atheism. It's an example of "I know you are but what am I?"

[Atman]

7. "The very foundation of our faith is shaken..."

But not stirred.

They'll be back. They'll just hire some new goob who'll tell 'em it's just God's mysterious way of testing them, or somesuch nonsense. Now here comes the collection basket; give generously for Christ's sake!

[Modem Butterfly]

9. It's sad that they need all of their fellow believers to be "good" people

I think that's why you get so many folks talking about how people like Hitler and Jim Jones weren't real Xians (TM). They commit the "one true Scotsman fallacy" in an effort to distance themselves from their fellow believers who go astray.

[onager]

23. Heh! That one always cracks me up...

Any day at DU, I can read umpteen outraged posts by Xians claiming that the right-wing Fundies "aren't real Xians."

For comedy relief, sometimes I immediately jump over to the hard-core, right-wing Fundie sites like "Rapture Ready." Just so I can see them ranting about how the Godless Lib'ruls "aren't real Xians."

Since I don't have a god in this fight, I don't know who gets to decide Real Xianity. I'm pretty sure it won't be us atheists...despite the millions of innocent believers we've killed off in this very century, back when we set up the Atheist State Of World Domination.

When was that, anyway?