The wise person does not need God to be moral or just or to live a good, meaningful life

[BurtWorm]

True or false?

In my opinion: Almost certainly true.

[Diane R]

1. Absolutely, totally true.

[jobycom]

2. True.

[Jokerman]

3. True but...

I don't think I'd include the "wise" qualification. I'd say it is true for any person.

[Fresh_Start]

4. purely semantic concern

wisdom refers to judgment not actions.

[cosmik debris]

5. Let's look at a contrary position

If there is no god, it is impossible to be moral, just, or to live a good life.

Or this statement: The unwise person does need god...

If your statement is NOT true, some converse statement must be true. What would that statement be?

[BurtWorm]

10. If not true, then the converse statement is a wise person *does* need god etc.

I suspect there are some, even here, who believe that. How they would argue it is beyond me.

[cosmik debris]

16. My point is that there is no rational negative answer

Saying that the statement is false would imply some ridiculous opposites.

[BurtWorm]

17. The question is really do you need God to be wise?

I should have phrased it that way.

[Meshuga]

6. True

I have an atheist friend who is an example of good ethics and morality. She is a perfect example to support my answer.

[cyborg_jim]

7. Do the unwise need there to be no god to be immoral, injust or to live an evil, meaningless life?

^ Corollary.

[BurtWorm]

11. The question is more like "Does wisdom entail a relationship with God?"

"Do you need God to be wise?"

Something along those lines. What or how unwise people believe about god is beyond the scope of the question, as I formulated it anyway.

[JerseygirlCT]

21. Do you need God to be wise?

I've certainly known some extremely kind, wise and moral people who are not believers.

I guess for a believer, though, the question gets more complicated: though they do not believe, are they endowed with those attributes because of God? Has God given them extraordinary empathy or wisdom, whether they recognize God's existence or not?

I don't believe *religion* is required to make one a moral or wise or empathetic being.

[Ian David]

8. Atheists stand for so much more, and fall for so much less. n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

20. Do you really think atheists "stand for so much more"?

I'd like to hear how you come to that conclusion, myself.

[Ian David]

22. Exhibit A. The Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles

The Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles

* We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.

* We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.

* We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.

* We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.

* We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.

* We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.

* We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.

* We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.

* We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.

* We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.

* We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.

* We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.

* We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.

* We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.

* We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.

* We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.

* We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.

* We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.

* We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.

* We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.

* We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=main&page=affirmations

[JerseygirlCT]

25. And none of that requires one be an atheist. As a theist, I could

quite easily subscribe to that. In fact, many more progressive religious people do and have for quite some time.

[Evoman]

23. No we don't.

Your confusing atheists with humanists. One does not require the other. All that atheism means is that you have no belief in god.

[JerseygirlCT]

26. Thanks, Evoman. Exactly. Humanism can easily

encompass a great many different religious or non-religious philosophies.

[Ian David]

30. Good point. One can be an Atheist and not a Humanist. n/t

[NMMNG]

31. Indeed

Too many people automatically link atheism and secular humanism (and assume that "secular" and "secular humanist" are the same thing as well).

[YankeyMCC]

9. Yes nt

[kestrel91316]

12. True

A moral compass does not require worship of and blind obedience to an unseen being in the sky. Or wherever.

[CJCRANE]

13. Empathy is a good starting point.

People of all faiths and none can possess empathy.

[Rabrrrrrr]

14. I would take out qualifier "wise", lower-case "God", add an "(s)", and then say absolutely true.

That is, just let it say "a person doesn't need god(s) to be moral or just or to live a good life".

It isn't only the Christian or Jewish god (name: God) that one doesn't need to live a moral or ethical life; one does not need any god, gods, goddess, or goddesses, whatsoever.

I will also add the truth that believing in God (or a god, goddess, gods, or goddesses) doesn't automatically mean that one is living a moral, ethical, or good life. <-- this is the line of bullshit that I have such an issue about with the Cristian right, who seem always to imply that "If we just teach Jesus, America will have values again" blah blah blah bullshit blah, and the other line of bullshit of "He might have committed perjury (or genocide, or war crimes, or adultery, or pedophilia) but he's Christian, so it's okay".

[BurtWorm]

15. Well put.

:toast:

[nosillies]

18. Well put -- take out the "wise" and the capital G

Belief in any divine being (not just the G-man) has nothing to do with intelligence or individual morality or ethics.

[deepthought42]

19. Considering I've made it this far in my life...

and I still consider myself to be a decent human being, I'd say yes.

[skepticscott]

24. Absolutely true

People in all cultures and all through history have been able to establish a strong moral and ethical framework to their lives without a Bible and without the guidance of any BGITS (Big Guys in the Sky). The ancient Romans and Greeks certainly did, as did Buddists, Confucians, and non-believers of all colors. You don't even need a great store of wisdom, just enough good sense to realize that the world is a better place if you treat others the way you would like to be treated.

[varkam]

28. !

You don't even need a great store of wisdom, just enough good sense to realize that the world is a better place if you treat others the way you would like to be treated.

I was trying to think of a way to say exactly that. Good post.

[kwassa]

32. but the Romans and Greeks did have big guys in the sky.

Lots of them. All kinds of them.

"The ancient Romans and Greeks certainly did, as did Buddists, Confucians, and non-believers of all colors."

They are all believers, they just believe in something different.

[skepticscott]

33. Except

that Zeus, Apollo, Venus, Diana, etc. were not the guides or motivators for the Greek and Roman systems of ethics and morals, even though they did have an influence on behavior in general. The Greek and Roman philosphers who expounded on these topics were essentially secular in their approach. You will see no appeal or reference to sacred writings in their work, as there is in the blathering of our present-day crop of moral nannies.

[NMMNG]

27. True

Belief and morality have nothing to do with one another. Nor do belief and meaningfulness.

[Kiouni]

29. Truth

[WritingIsMyReligion]

34. Absolutely true.

I can think of several examples from my own life.

[MedleyMisty]

35. Definitely true