Prayer—does it help?

[raccoon]

Prayer helps me.

My belief is that prayer doesn't change external events, circumstances, or people ONE IOTA. It can, and does, change me so that I can deal with these externals better.

It doesn't insure that everything will go smoothly 100% of the time, but it's helped me many times.

[Burma Jones]

1. Meditation of all stripes helps.........

and don't be so sure that prayer, or some other meditative activity, doesn't have some affect......

[meegbear]

2. I believe that it does help some people ...

it gives them "hope" and just having that is enough to make one want to get better or make things better.

[Midlodemocrat]

3. Yes. Without a doubt.

and sometimes when we ask for something, the answer is no.

[eagler]

4. It's a very personal thing. It either does or it doesn't. For myself

I have no doubt that it does work. But that's just me. It's something that will never be proven - atleast in this life.

[redqueen]

5. Yes. n/t

[Gato Moteado]

6. no. absolutely not!

ok, i just said that to be different.

who knows whether or not prayer really helps. we all do it now and then. even agnostics like me.

i hope it works.

[stellanoir]

7. we had a "lively experiment" with prayer for the midterms

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2589421

There are many points of view on that thread. It was great fun.

[krispos42]

8. It does if you think it does

It's a form of meditation and, in extreme cases can also be a form of self-delusion that makes reality easier to digest or enable you to do things you wouldn't ordinarily do. Like deal with a loved one's death.

[China_cat]

9. Two Hands Working

accomplish more than a thousand clasped in prayer.

[bryant69]

12. The two aren't mutually exclusive though

You can work and pray if you choose to.

Bryant

[Az]

10. Do you suppose that differs in any way with meditation?

Would any internal reflection give you the results you percieve through prayer? Or do you believe it is something other than internal reflection? If so can you provide any evidence supporting that conjecture beyond your own feelings on the matter?

[raccoon]

11. For me it does, because with meditation my thoughts go everywhere.

My mind wanders with prayer, as well. But if meditation works for somebody, well, whatever floats your boat.

In some cases, I think for me the internal reflection would give me the same results (for instance, thinking of options I hadn't thought of before), and in some cases probably not (changing my attitude toward a person/situation I dislike).

"Or do you believe it is something other than internal reflection?"

I remember once someone wrote, "Is it your Higher Power or Higher Self?" I tend to believe more it is the Higher Self.

The only evidence I have is my own experience.

The reason I started this thread is that so many people seem to have the idea that prayer is like a wish list that you go to God, Allah, whatever with, the same as a child would write a letter to Santa Claus. And then when things turn out the way the person wanted them to, that means God or whatever did what THEY wanted, and that their praying CAUSED it.

Most people don't receive much guidance in this area. I know I didn't. I had to figure it out after a lot of reading and discussions with other people.

[Az]

15. Well the thing is if you read the bible

It pretty much clearly states that prayer is for asking for things. It is an appeal to change the way things are. It seems only that in modern times with our evidentiary methods that prayer has moved to an internal process and become utterly subjective. Almost as if any claims of action have been rebuffed by science and reason and thus the God of the Gaps has found one more place to hide.

[kwassa]

16. Prayer isn't just "asking for things"

It is really asking for guidance, as much as anything else.

"It seems only that in modern times with our evidentiary methods that prayer has moved to an internal process and become utterly subjective"

Huh? Prayer has always been subjective. One certainly prays as a group in church, but one's prayers are always between oneself and God.

What is your background in religion, Az? Some of your statements astound me.

[Az]

17. Are you providing your opinion on prayer

Or is that the official position of the bible on prayer? Do you deny that the bible makes several direct comments about the capabilities of prayer and that they imply that prayer allows you to ask God for things? Do not confuse modern rationalization for what is actually written. There are still people out there that believe that what you pray for will be given. Just as the bible says. But there are many more people that realise this is not the way things work and thus have rationalized what prayer is to them besides asking for God to act upon something.

[kwassa]

19. "The official opinion of the Bible"?

The Bible has no official opinions, people do. As the Bible was put together by many different people, I'm not sure of what you are talking about.

"Do you deny that the bible makes several direct comments about the capabilities of prayer and that they imply that prayer allows you to ask God for things?"

Sure, but what do you mean by "things"? Prayer has different functions.

here are the five functions from the Catholic Catechism.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p4s1c1a3.htm

I. BLESSING AND ADORATION

II. PRAYER OF PETITION

III. PRAYER OF INTERCESSION

IV. PRAYER OF THANKSGIVING

V. PRAYER OF PRAISE

you will find far more detail under these descriptions.

"Do not confuse modern rationalization for what is actually written."

and what is that modern rationalization? In fact, your point is completely unclear.

"There are still people out there that believe that what you pray for will be given."

As do I.

"Just as the bible says. But there are many more people that realise this is not the way things work and thus have rationalized what prayer is to them besides asking for God to act upon something."

I think you neither understand prayer, nor what you are talking about in terms of rationalization of prayer. Why do you, as an atheist, believe you have understanding of something you clearly have no belief in ??????????

It is kind of like claiming to know all about Paris without ever leaving the U.S.

[Az]

20. Which is it?

You seem to be trying to disagree with me just to disagree with me. It is my contention that asking for intercession or petitioning prayers go unfullfilled beyond the expected statistical likelihood of such events happening on their own. That is they have no meaningful effect outside the person's own thoughts. Are we disagreeing on this subject at all?

You seem also to be suggesting that you understand all about prayer. Even prayer of those who think differently than you. I am merely claiming that there are some people who have beliefs about prayer that are demonstrably erroneous. I make no attempt to speak about prayer in an all encompassing fashion. There are too many opinions on what prayer is to make such a claim.

But I can point to the bible and show specific clauses that are possible to test. And I can further show tests that demonstrate that these claims are unfounded.

I sense that most of your objection seems to be coming from a personal anger at opposition than any single thing I have said. I may be wrong but you seem to be reacting as if I had personally attacked you. I have only been speaking in broad general terms to some perceptions of prayer.

[kwassa]

22. response

"It is my contention that asking for intercession or petitioning prayers go unfulfilled beyond the expected statistical likelihood of such events happening on their own. That is they have no meaningful effect outside the person's own thoughts. Are we disagreeing on this subject at all?"

Yes, we are, because what you are not dealing with is what is being prayed for. What do you believe the subject matter of prayers to be? What do you believe the purpose of prayer to be?

"You seem also to be suggesting that you understand all about prayer. Even prayer of those who think differently than you."

I never said or suggested any such thing. Your previous statements in this thread indicated to me, as well as I could understand them, that you didn't know much about prayer, as you didn't seem to understand the breadth of the subject. Your contentions were very non-specific. I dropped in the quotes from the Catholic catechism to simply show one traditional Christian analysis of the subject, to get it into some specificity.

"I am merely claiming that there are some people who have beliefs about prayer that are demonstrably erroneous. I make no attempt to speak about prayer in an all encompassing fashion. There are too many opinions on what prayer is to make such a claim."

It certainly didn't sound that way from your previous statement, in which you seem to be speaking in broad assumptions.

"But I can point to the bible and show specific clauses that are possible to test. And I can further show tests that demonstrate that these claims are unfounded."

What are those clauses? How would you test them? and what does this mean about the subject of prayer in general.

"I sense that most of your objection seems to be coming from a personal anger at opposition than any single thing I have said. I may be wrong but you seem to be reacting as if I had personally attacked you. I have only been speaking in broad general terms to some perceptions of prayer."

I don't think that you have personally attacked me. I simply don't react well to very limited information being passed as a broad and basic understanding of a subject. I

[Az]

23. An example

Matthew 21
21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Its quite clear here that the bible is stating that anything asked for in faith shall be done. It even includes a rather extreme example.

And another example:

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

These are testable. In fact I have personally run experiments on these particular verses. I have run a muliyear test in the past where I asked Christians of all persuasions to partake in an experiment where they prayed for a small wind up toy I had to move on its own powered only by God's will. All they had to do was pray for it to move and its motion would provide evidence for the effectiveness of prayer as well as evidence for God. Any number of Christians were invited to partake in this experiment and I recieved notification of many attempts. I diligently noted the fish every day for 3 years and in all that time it never moved without my assistance.

[BurtWorm]

18. Why then has the form prayer takes changed (in Christianity at least)?

In the early Middle Ages, it was always done, Eastern style, with hands apart and palms open and facing out or up. I can't recall when the change occurred, but I think it may have been after Augustine. I believe it was in imitation of the way a vassal approached a lord, with palms together as though handcuffed.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

13. My sister had a poem --

I can't remember most of it. Not sure if she wrote it or if it was someone else.

But the last two lines always stick with me:

"Sometimes He calms the storm,
Sometimes He calms His child."

[MistressOverdone]

14. You might have a point

but I am not convinced by either side of the data yet. I know that it has helped me and mine.

[varkam]

21. When I used to pray

I recall very well that it made me feel more comfortable and at ease when my life was going through chaos. I would be infused with a sense that things were out of my hands and that they would work out. Damn I miss it.

[Az]

25. Knowledge and Control

We are born with none of it and gradually learn what amount we have. But we forever crave more. And once we learn just what our limits our we often hope that there is someone or something out there that has more than we do and we hope they are on our side. It is a very nice thing to think that even if we are limited in our abilities and knowledge that there is someone out there looking out for us that has it all.

[varkam]

26. It's a nice thought

And I wish I could still believe it.

[Stevepol]

24. One of the best prayers is praying for yourself, that you might...

be able to do what is yours to do, that you might have the necessary courage, strength, wisdom, compassion, etc. etc., each prayer adapted to what is needed at the time, whether healing or self-discipline or the ability not to be offended at what somebody has said or done or what has happened in DC, etc.

Can there be a more useful way to use the mind?

Prayer is actually just our thinking, what goes on in our heads. If we're praying, we are actually just beginning to make conscious decisions about our prayers. We pray whether we call it that or not.

[raccoon]

28. Most of my prayers are as your first paragraph describes.

"Prayer is actually just our thinking, what goes on in our heads. "

That may very well be true.

Whatever gets you through the night, be it prayer, meditation, or something else. If it helps, I say, good for the helpee.

Main reason I posted this is that I (and apparently, many others) were raised being told to pray for what we want, pray for Grandma to get well, etc. When we didn't get the bike we prayed for, or the job we prayed for, or when Grandma died, we became disillusioned and pissed off.

Someone posted above about the Bible saying we should pray for what we wanted, and Jesus said whatever we ask for, we'll receive. I feel like George Gershwin, the things that you're liable to read in the Bible, they ain't necessarily so. :-)

[WritingIsMyReligion]

27. I don't think so.

Meditation and whatnot is fine--that kind of thing in general relaxes and strengthens you for sure, as I know when I get into a dreamy state playing piano or writing. But I don't think praying in general does one iota of anything, changes anybody's situation.

In general I believe that old nontheist saying: Hands that help are better than hands that pray.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

29. I think of it as the placebo affect

As an atheist, I don't pray, but I would guess that some people are helped simply because of the hope that their prayers will be successful. Others may get a simple boost of confidence thinking that god may be on their side.