Has anyone ever had a born again reversal?

[Philosoraptor]

I'm sure it's happened, but I ask because about 35 years ago my brother and mom and dad were born again, and they've shown zero signs of reversal, and are as stalwart and entrenched as ever. Sometimes I wish I could get through to them, and I've told them so many times.

I am an atheist, not due in small part to these events decades ago, but I too was once very religious, first Methodist, then Hindu, then atheist, but they are still deeply submerged in the lord to this day.

I recently told my irritating brother to please stop bugging me with the born again stuff because he knows I hate it, and I'm not converting suddenly. I offered to help de-program him, I suggested his extreme zealotry may be a mental illness at this point and talked to him man to man, having been through it myself, if there is any way I can help him break this all consuming cycle of uber-evangelicalism.

Mind you, his commitment to Jesus is intense and deep and all consuming to the point that people run when they see him coming cause they know that his zeal to spread the word is about to explode. I told him he's chased more people away from Jesus with his brutish approach than he could ever coax. But he's not hearing anything I say, much to my sadness.

Has anyone ever heard of anyone who's been born again, and then un-born again?

[slackmaster]

1. I've often wondered about this

Tagged for interest.

I can't recall anyone I know going through such a reversal. Once people join something, they usually stick with it.

[YOY]

2. Was there a cycle of addiction in his life before being 'born again'?

e.g. Alchoholism, drugs, sex, etc...

[Philosoraptor]

4. well...

He and I were both wild yoots, but yes, although not addicted to anything, it was LSD related, and he'd only done it once. But once was enough. I did the very same drug but never once saw Jesus. Dancing bears, yes, but not the lord.

[YOY]

22. From personal experience many of the 'born agains' I have know

are former Catholics or less fundie Protestants (non-practicing) who had problems with some form of overindulgance and needed another outlet that was less destructive.


The Jebus was that high and they took to it as they took to the drugs, alchohol, or sex. To remove the crutch might cause some form of damage. Some folks need a crutch to function.

The former Catholics were the most obnoxious as they now consider themselves 'Christians' and not 'Papists'. They lost almost all their friends and many of their familial relationships are strained.

Ironically, one is a forced (his doing) outcast in his family.

[Systematic Chaos]

3. I used to chat on ICQ with a very sweet young lady and she would qualify.

She lived in Texas and did networking support for a company that is now long out of business. We talked at great length about our lives and her story is just what you're talking about.

The long and short of it is that her parents were a part of the reverend Robert Tilton's church down there in Texas. As you may or may not know, he was in huge trouble at one point over tax evasion, and to this day you can find hillarious videos of him and his constipated facial expressions as he "praised the Lord" on TV. Just do a search for "farting preacher" and enjoy. Anywho, she was a choir singer for his program for years but just plain got tired of it all. By her early 20's, when I knew her, she was very spiritually open, and had dabbled in many other philosophies including Paganism and didn't take a whole lot of stock in the concept of salvation, to put it mildly.

One more thing: she also admitted that her parents forced her to have an abortion at 17 after she was raped by a neighbor's son. It's something she herself would have wanted anyway, but her parents were very insistent that she get it done immediately and on the hush. So much for that whole sanctity of life thing. :eyes:

As for why I'm not in touch with her anymore, my computer died and when I got back online several months later I couldn't find her on ICQ anymore. Also, due to my ego problems I never had the nerve to ask for her number. Idiot me.

[noobie2]

5. Yes, of course

I was born again and then became atheist myself. Only problem is that Born again fundamentalism holds firmly to the no true-Scotsman fallacy in cases such as mine ("Wasn't a true Christian if I de-converted"). I would suggest going to a great website http://www.iidb.org (Internet Infidels). They have a few threads dealing with this very topic.

http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=182397&highlight=no+true+scotsman

The Bible is what actually made me an atheist. The atrocities were too much for me to resolve in my mind. The cognitive dissonance just got to me.

[Bill McBlueState]

11. welcome to DU!

If you're not aware, there's a group for atheists and agnostics:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=263

You have to be a donating member to post to groups, but maybe you'll want to consider doing that if DU seems appealing.

[pansypoo53219]

21. well, much of the bible is bullshit

all those transcribers in the past twisting shit to get the sheeple to do what they want and all. read Bishop Spong's book about fundamentalism. i never was much of a bible reader.
i be;live, but it's more of a nature god. with bible school mixed in.
no church.

[On the Road]

6. So You Were Intensely Methodist, but Not Specially Born-Again?

I never thought much about that distinction. I went through a variety of religious affiliations as well in my teens and twenties. I most definitely had a born-again experience when I was 17, and was also baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues. It lasted about ten years.

What helped wean me away from it was a mentor who had a very strong Christian faith, but who knew church history, was familiar with a variety of sects, and had a much more subtle approach to hermeneutics than any church leader I've met before or since. That provided the mental attitude to question some of my own assumptions without guilt. But in the end, a lot has to do with personal relationships and inclusion in a group. Evangelicals often have churches that provide a wonderful experience if you feel part of it, and it's hard to get people to break with that.

My family is like yours, and most of the time I have learned to accommodate it. My mother has adopted an "I'm not giving up on you yet" attitude which is fine with me.

There are definitely lots of atheists who used to be committed Christians. Most of them don't proclaim it publicly. The ones who were damaged sometimes end up in support groups. Ones that retain their curiosity often end up interested in historical Jesus research. Ones that simply find power and money more attractive at some point sometimes become Republican politicians.

[Philosoraptor]

8. I went through the motions

Briefly at about 16 I met some southern Baptists, but it wasn't sincere. Also gave sermons and considered being a preacher, but then the Beatles and the drugs came along, with the swamis and the gurus and I fell for it.

Then I just got tired of it all, at about the time my family all got the spirit, tongues, laying on of hands, etc. They've all resigned to the fact that I won't be with them in heaven, which to me is insulting. At least don't laugh at me from on high during my eternal sufferings.

[Geoff R. Casavant]

7. Happens all the time.

I was visiting with friends once, and attended their church on the day when they did the full immersion baptisms. One guy was absolutely ecstatic to be born again and started talking to the congregation. Swear to God, he said, "I was baptized and born again before, but it didn't take."

[elocs]

9. I think I am pretty close to being unborn again. Haven't given it much thought.

As a child I went through the whole Lutheran/Baptist Sunday school thing and the born again thing did not come up until I was going to the Baptist church and there was intense pressure to go forward. In the 7th grade I quit going. In my middle 20s I was attracted to a Pentecostal church and was born again, but not in the Baptist sense since the Pentecostals thought that was pretty superficial. Nope, I was baptized in the Spirit with speaking in tongues and everything. I have been slain in the Spirit with no catcher and was unhurt from landing on the floor flat on my back. I have seen people possessed and demons cast out. Somebody whose word I did not doubt even said that he saw somebody levitate during an exorcism. But ultimately the experience was very cult-like and there was a lot of judging and condemning of others who did not believe the same. Lot's of judgment, little of Jesus and his teachings. Right now I think I simply stand with many of our Founding Fathers and just think of myself as a Deist. Actually I am not really keen on all of the titles and everything.

[leftyclimber]

10. I was born again when I was 16

By the time I was 18 I decided that I'd unwittingly joined a cult and became un-born again.

[jobycom]

12. It's generally called backsliding.

Lots of atheist, including myself, were born again at one time. For me it was as a teenager. I was a calmer version of your friend, but I did the whole "witness" thing, to some degree. Even then I shied away from the extremists, and even my preacher, who was one of the most religious and spiritual people I've ever met, saw such people as extremists and bad for Christianity's image.

A lot of southern Christians of the evangelical sort feel that "once a Christian, always a Christian," and that "former" Christians are of two types: either they were false converts in the first place (as someone above said), or they are backslidden (if that's a word). Neither is good, but there is hope for backsliders.

My advice would be to not approach your brother on the subject, and even support him in general terms. Otherwise, he just won't listen. You aren't trying to overcome the effects of alcohol or excessive partying, you are trying to convince him to throw away his eternal life and float lost in an unfathomable universe without guidance. That will be his perception, not mine. If you aproach him as though everything he knows is a mental illness, then you are basically destroying everything that makes him himself. You won't succeed, but if you did, what would he fill that void with? It might not be just "irritating," but deadly to him or to others. Drugs, alcohol, crime, who knows. Happens all the time.

Most former Christians I know who are still sane evolved away from the religion, or evolved into a higher understanding of spirituality and religion itself. Sometimes they go through a rejection of all things religious, and even a hostility to it (you'll see that here, with all the people who follow up any question about religion with a comment about it being make-believe, or worse). Usually they move out of that phase, or sometimes just go straight to the next phase, which is an acceptance that there is something spiritual, and that all people develop their own metaphors for it--for some it involves atheism, others it involves religion, for some, a realization that there's not much difference between religion and atheism. There are probably other phases, those were just mine. :)

I've also known former gung-ho evangelical witnessing types who grew into a more spiritual interpretation of Christianity. They didn't give it up, they just moved beyond the extreme literalness of the fundamentalist and into a more aware realm. (Damn it's hard to say that without sounding ridiculous! Hope you can muddle through it, if anyone is still reading now!)

But everyone I know moved there through their own volition, after being educated or just encountering questions that they could not quite reconcile. I've never known anyone converted through the nagging of others. Most people won't listen to the nagging--they feel that others are just the temptations of Satan, or some such thing, and feel that they are stronger and better people for overcoming it.

So you won't convert him. The best you can do is be his brother, support him, tell him you respect him even if you don't agree or understand, and win his confidence that you aren't an evil man. Realize that he sees you as the same misguided oaf that you see him as, and to him, you are wrong and he is right--just as you see him. Maybe you can convince him that he is driving people away from him and his words by being too gung-ho. Maybe not. But you won't change him. He will either change on his own, or he won't. Just be there when he needs it.

This coming from someone with the most screwed up family you can imagine. Probably you shouldn't listen to me! :rofl:

[On the Road]

13. The Concept of "Backsliding" is Why Most Evangelical Don't Change

It's the way of framing the issue. If you believe that changing your belief structure is morally represensible, you can probably summon the "integrity" to keep the faith.

One of the concepts that allowed me to change was "religiosity," namely that expressions of faith can be just as morally questionable as any other action. That is powerful tool for change, as is education in the history of the church -- preferably through original texts. The past is strange and horrible.

[jobycom]

15. The past history of the Church can be interpreted as one sees fit

Atheists interpret it one way, believers another. It's been a tremendous agent for change, good and bad. Was it a bad organziation that accidentally did some good, or a good organization that allowed others to do bad in its name? Kind of like asking if America is a good or bad nation.

Not to mention, most evangelicals view the Church as bad, already. They believe the Catholic Church was an evil force squashing true Christians for millenia. So they just reject the bad stuff as the work of evil, power-mad false Christians. Same as they do today. Same as we on the other side do, too, frequently.

[Christa]

14. I was born again

before I became an atheist :think:

[bmbmd]

16. Do atheists ever have

a reversal of their status?

[burythehatchet]

17. Rebirth is a powerful force.

The idea of the animal self dying in order to be replaced by the spiritual self. The abandonimg of animal instinct in favor of higher golas of enlightenment. Obviously anyone who attains a true rebirth and joins the realm of path seekers, cannot "backslide". I don't know hwo is being reborn these days, it certainly is not the hypocrites of all the fundie sects.

[Duer 157099]

18. Here's an excellent book to read

http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Faith-Preacher-Atheist/dp/1877733075/sr=8-1/qid=1166461956/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-2394683-8816916?ie=UTF8&s=books

Losing Faith in Faith: From Preacher to Atheist, by Dan Barker

Or better yet, send this to your family members!

My experience has been very similar to that of the author, so YES, it can and does happen.

[shadowknows69]

19. I guess that would be me

I was a pretty serious evangelical for a time in high school. Assemblies of God church. Left it and became a Wiccan. I think they'd probably consider that un-born again.

[TlalocW]

20. I dated a girl whose parents were from India (she was born in America)

She's a Hindu but not very serious about it since she eats hamburgers. :)

Anyway, when her mom died, a Christian friend of hers converted her, but after a while she "converted back." I told her that it seemed to me that her friend was taking advantage of her grief to win one over for her side, and she generally agreed.

TlalocW

[Danger Mouse]

29. Classy...

...oh wait. no. that's shameless and pathetic. 'i can see that you're grieving. accept Jesus now! NOW!'

[warrens]

23. My college roommate

Long story, but the Campus Crusade for Christ had him bid on my room during the last half of my senior year (a real bitch of a thing to do to a senior, btw, at my school). They evidently wanted to save me. The reverse happened.

[BlackVelvet04]

24. I'm not sure why you want to convert him.....

to make him feel better or YOU feel better? If he is happy with his belief then why the attempts to change him? You resent him trying to change you. Try showing some respect for his position and maybe he will show some for yours.

[Zhade]

25. Yes. I tried several times; it never "took".

Hell, I even briefly flirted with Mormonism.

In the end, the utter lack of corroborating evidence for any religion's myths led me to realize I couldn't buy into them.

Now I'm much happier, a better person, and I like myself much better. Acknowledging my lack of belief in any gods was the best thing I ever did for myself.

[Az]

26. I have met a few

Quite a few of them wound up losing their faith when they started studying the bible more. There is actually a book by a person that underwent just such a conversion/deconversion process. Misquoting Jesus by Bart D. Ehrman details the translation problems he discovered while studying the bible that eventually disillusioned him to his fundamentalist ways. I haven't read the entire book yet but what I have read of it is quite interesting.

[Dervill Crow]

27. Most definitely. I got born again and then again as a pagan.

I am not sure if it was gradual or sudden, but it became obvious to me that the faith and belief that had been effortless for the first five years or so after my born-again experience age 24 had become "work," and I didn't have the same goofy happy faith as many of my "church family." It was impossible to ignore when I realized at my mom's funeral that by born-again Christian standards my mother was doomed to spend eternity in hell. I spent several years feeling really guilty for not doing a better job sharing the gospel with her, and then I figured out that the reason I didn't do that is because in my heart I felt it was hogwash.

I do believe in deity of some type, whether God, Goddess, the Force, or as my friend calls it, the Big Whatchamacallit. I don't count on Jesus or anyone else to "save" me. I've been agnostic, Christian, Jewish (not formally converted but really wanted to), pagan, and just now as I wrote this I realized I'm back to agnostic. I like the trappings of paganism and the idea of being in charge of my own destiny. I'm not a very talented witch, but I haven't had a house fall on me, so by some definitions that makes me a "good" witch. Lest this sound flaky, these spiritual explorations have taken place over four decades, so it hasn't been overnight random religion shopping; it's been slow and fairly methodical.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

28. yes, thanks to total disillusionment

I'm a godless secular humanist Unitarian. Unitarian-Universalists are no longer explicitly Christian. It's fine to be an atheist, agnostic, pagan, or whatever you want there. They literally cannot throw anyone out, because they have no affirmation of faith or creed you must adhere to, to be a member.

I've bounced thru many churches. Any time a Jesus freak wants to debate the bible with me, I can certainly win. I was raised Presbyterian and graduated from a Presbyterian college, and they are very well educated.

I'd love to see some of these half assed preachers pass the religion courses I took from a professor who spoke and/or read: Spanish, English, Latin (read Thomas Aquinas in the original), Amharic, Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, Linear B (cuneiform). Has a Doctor of Divinity from Princeton.

I can't deal with the Abrahamic religions anymore, because they are all bloodthirsty and have a psychotic, mass-murdering, inconsistent God.

I have studied Asian religions for years because I think they have far more depth and truth to them than the Abrahamic ones. And they don't have blatant contradictions in their scriptures like the Xtian bible has.

The rabid Jesus freaks, like you are talking about, are pitiful bullies. They get their jollies from judging others. Throwing their own Bible back at them by saying "Judge not lest ye be judged" or "As you did it to the least of them, so also you did it unto me" does not penetrate their skulls.


I avoid them whenever possible. I tend to hang out with creative and arty types who are busy doing their thing, not telling everybody else to go to Hell that's not just like them.