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The real FRAUD was voter SUPRESSION!

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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 11:07 PM
Original message
The real FRAUD was voter SUPRESSION!
Edited on Tue Nov-30-04 11:08 PM by JohnnyCougar
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pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
1. Unfortunately suppression has been going on forever....
....and people seem to just accept it as something that's inevitable. I absolutely agree with you, though. America deserves better.
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oscar111 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. "REVOTE, not recount" should be the chant everywhere
recount cannot gather all the votes cancelled by things like

l. FL cops blocked roads to two black polling places

2. too few machines, and too few polling places in democratic areas

3. fl state police visiting elderly black activists and questioning them about supposed terrorist case
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 11:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. YES!

YES! That should be our focus. All courts are sensitive to voter suppression. It's a personal issue. It's an issue with a face - thousands of faces! We need affidavits, we need an endless stream of people testifying. Thanks Johnny for the info, especially for the numbers. We need to save the voting rights for the future, for our children.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
23. Hi thereismore!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-30-04 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
4. Totally agree
I think computer fraud should be pursued, but Ohio vote suppression should definitely be the lead story we push for now. Well, I guess it doesn't matter what I think right now, because, glady, this story now has legs thanks to Jesse Jackson.

There is not only stronger evidence, there is a human element to the story that will get many more people's attention. Most people's eyes glaze over when you get too technical. But not too many people will be able to ignore it when you hand them compelling human stories like these:
http://www.theneighborhoodnetwork.org/Video/Vote/Vote.h...

...lets see a freeper deny THAT to someone who has seen it.

And the freepress.org subsite is nice and respectable looking and doesn't clutter too many side-issues into the mix that might scare off those people who just want to look at this one issue and may not think of themselves as anti-Bush or anti-war or whatever.
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. no offense to the people working on machine fraud
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 12:15 AM by JohnnyCougar
but this story plays much better in the media. Voter supression is still fraud, and we have proof, and is still doesn't get enough attention. KO should do a segment on these numbers. This story is credible, and there is proof. There is absolutely no way to debunk this, and it makes the Republicans look like assholes.

Why aren't we pushing this story again???
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MarkusQ Donating Member (516 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. I agree

It's clearly unconstitutional as well. So it isn't like some little game with state law (or even a "well, that's just how we do things here" from Blackwell) well settle it.

--MarkusQ
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mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #5
19. This evidence is much stronger than the 'connally margin' stuff
that Jesse endorsed.

But here's a little de-bunkage :

People voted so strongly Kerry in those areas BECAUSE they stood in line for 6 hours. Clearly long lines cause people to vote against the establishment.

The machine fraud situation does need to be addressed, even if no
evidence is found, the situation of an undisclosed process being used for voting (proprietary programs) is indefensible. Even if you put aside the strong partisanship of the company owners, or that 2 of the 3 main vendors are brothers, or the felons involved or the lousy testing process or the shadiness of the only "Independent" test agents or ....

Comparing results in two different races is weak. You can't assume that people vote based on party registration or party lines. You have to account for stuff like the incumbent being a known sleezebag and the challenger being a perfect candidate.

The analysis using exit poll numbers should be strong, but the exit polls are doubtable because they won't release the details of them. Media companies should be raising hell and getting the raw data and the 'adjustments' publicized and scrutinized. We need to push a Sinclair type advertiser boycott or something to encourage the news networks to turn their investigators on Edison/Mitofsky and the polls.

The voter suppression/spoilage/registration evidence is strong and could affect as many or nearly as many votes as the exit polls indicate were stolen.
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #19
20. It sure can
I have already began pushing this story in my e-mails.

Look at the graph I posted below when you get a chance, too.

As for those who say that this happens all the time, isn't it time we stood up to this? Don't say it won't happen again, say they won't get away with it this time. Call for civil disobedience, and refuse to accept the election results until there is a complete revote in Ohio with adequate machines in all presincts.
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mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. Graphs
The graphs are good, but I like mine better :) Visuals like the
graphs can make it so much easier to SEE without having to look so hard.

Here's my graph and see the audio link from jmknapp that follows it. It's people grilling damschroder on this topic on a local radio show.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I've been sending these articles to people as well. If you show them the graph, then they say "WTF" and read the article. I wish this sort of data was available all over the country, precinct totals, number of machines in precinct, ideally totals for each machine.


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mountebank Donating Member (755 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 12:22 AM
Response to Original message
6. Kick! Excellent work. n/t
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. thanks, but it's not mine
The OP is from Kos.
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Chili Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
8. as I've been saying, Cuyahoga County had serious suppression
...too: http://shadowbox.i8.com/Suppression/ohio/ohiomachines.h...

The only thing we lack is the machine distribution list, like the one supplied by Franklin County. They don't DARE release that.

Or... if anybody has access to it, or can find it, PLEASE post the data.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:57 AM
Response to Original message
9. We can't recount suppression, HOWEVER
it is very important to make folks aware of this too.

A certain level of suppression is par for the course. But this election went beyond the pale, especially in areas where that registration list company have been monkeying with the names on the list. When someone tells you that they've voted in the same place for 20 years, and suddenly their name is gone, that's just wrong. And when poorer precincts have fewer machines in 2004 than they did in 2000, when we KNEW there would be a huge turnout. That's just wrong.

It's an outrage, and a travasty. Videos collected, reports compiled, it will all be important. We need to push this with our elected officials as well as the media.
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. but you can call for another election
As far fetched as that sounds, I think it's a totally justifiable request.
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lawladyprof Donating Member (628 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Easier quicker and more narrowly tailored to the harm done to
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 11:54 AM by lawladyprof
Allow voters in precincts that had fewer machines (and guess what--9 times or better out of ten they are Democratic precincts) to "late vote" if they will swear under oath that they were at the precinct on election day but unable to vote because of long lines. Let's call it remedial revoting or voting restitution.

Just think how the Republicans would gnash their teeth as all those disenfranchised folks marched to the polls while their "guys" ("hey, you had enough voting machines") had to stand with their hands in their pockets. They would, of course, cry that people were lying. But you just stand back and say, "Are you accusing these good citizens who tried so hard in the rain and cold to do their civic duty on election day of being liars?"

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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 05:14 AM
Response to Original message
11. Graphs, graphs, graphs!!!
http://ustogether.org/election04/liddle/FranklinCountyR...

No one can deny this!!! Voter supression is the same as fraud!!!
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Pepper32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. I agree, Voter suppression is the same as fraud and...
...turning a blind eye to it, justifies this fraud.


At 7:05pm, 25 minutes before polls closed in Toledo, Ohio, white, Republican challengers were witnessed harrassing voters at the Mott Library Central City polling station, a low-income African-American community. Observers said that they believed these challengers had been repeatedly calling the police producing obsurd stories in order to intimidate voters. One of the Republican challengers was recongnized as Dennis Lange, a prominant white business owner who owns Pumpernickels. Mr. Lange aggressively tried to push back African-American community members who were poll-watching and voting at the site. At one point more than four police officers, including undercover officers, were witnessed at the site for no reason. <snip>
http://michiganimc.org/newswire/display/7580/index.php
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wiggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 12:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. Another aspect of election fraud....
The basis of democracy is a well informed public.

There was fraudulent and dishonest portrayal by RNC and the media of their candidate, the issues, and the challenger.

It is illegal and fraudulent to advertise a product dishonestly. The public is kept from the truth, so how can an election decision be made effectively?

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Pepper32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. I completely agree.
Why this is not being pushed as a main issue is very disheartening. I do think we have enough evidence to go to court over this and win a revote or some other type of remedy.

This definitely needs to be seriously addressed. With no apathy.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
17. Agree with you and thus the focus of the letter...
....I sent to Senator Kerry, yesterday, and these comments I posted earlier today in a different thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Peace and thank you for posting explicitly this issue; had nominated this thread for the mainpage.



"I Declare The Election Invalid: Someone I do not know was prevented from voting"
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smartvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:35 PM
Response to Original message
18. I agree, but it's been lived with forever.
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #18
24. So then when is a good time for it to stop?
Not 2006.

Not 2008.

Not tomorrow.

Not in a few minutes.

NOW!!!! The answer is Now. This election should not be certified. We need to revote, and keep revoting untill there is no minority vote supression.
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
21. It's both suppression and computer fraud
They are sneaky. They covered all their bases early. Both. I have no problem with it being both.

It just shows the working of the criminal minds of the republican elite. They're evil smart and that's why they didn't worry about covering their tracks because they're also arrogant fucks.
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MarkusQ Donating Member (516 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #21
28. I keep saying this but...

Remember Watergate. The "department of dirty tricks" was incredibly creative. Everything from having "scary looking" people handing out McGovern materials in Republican neighborhoods (to mobilize their base) to breaking and entering, illegal wire taps, voter intimidation, drugs, possibly murder...

And many of the people we are dealing with here did their internships in that election. You're darned right they are sneaky.

--MarkusQ
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. With the amount of fraud involved
you'd have to use more than one tactic with different strategies in different jurisdictions to account for different laws, precincts, election boards, sec. of states, etc.
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. Let's get this data to Olbermann!
KOlbermann@msnbc.com

I'll jump if I see that graph on TV!
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JohnnyCougar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. kick
In case the Bev Harris and Jeff Fisher stories don't hold up, lets start getting this story out.
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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 12:59 AM
Response to Original message
27. Kick (Fraud is the topic, nothing else)
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 05:54 AM
Response to Original message
29. kick and props to our road-warriors Saturday
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spooked Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-02-04 06:47 AM
Response to Original message
31. Excellent!!
and terrible at the same time--for Democracy!
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