Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

BEV! BBV!! WHAT IS GOING ON???

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU
 
wantkerryin Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 10:55 PM
Original message
BEV! BBV!! WHAT IS GOING ON???
Anyone have any clue as to what we can expect this "big development" to be? I don't see it on Blackboxvoting.org ? :kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 10:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. I don't know, but...
I know they are challenging the election results in Volusia County...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. That 's it.
That's the big development. They filed suit in Volusia.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
wantkerryin Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. hmmm
UPDATE due Tuesday Nov 23 -- A significant development, announcement late afternoon or evening.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. Aimee Gave A Brief Update Earlier
She said something about them filing suit in Volusia County accusing the director of posting election day results that don't match the actual count (assumption to be made that there are more for the Shrub than should be)

Can't find the link right now but will see if I can. I am anxious for more details as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:00 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. and.....
didin't we already know that?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
16. I think it's significant.
Yes, we had a general statement from Bev that a quick glance over the numbers showed differences that seemed to favor Bush. But by now, Bev and friends have undoubtedly looked through all of the information carefully, and the good news is that they believe that what they found warrants a lawsuit.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:01 PM
Response to Original message
5. Bev was on CNN! Check other threads

Yea!!! We finally made a segment on a major whore network.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noclonyofthechimp Donating Member (656 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
38. Exactly! but at least they seemed to cover it with some detail _>
last night on "NightNews".
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CementDude Donating Member (75 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. What probably happened is this..
Bev was interviewed by CNN today. She probably mentions Volusia, the garbage bag incident, the register rolls, why it makes sense to check these machine (that part makes the piece) but then something happens a few hours later in a production facility...

EDITORIAL REVIEW

And on the cutting room floor go these juicy bits. It wouldn't be "responsible" to report what CNN hasn't fully looked into. They may still stay on top of the story.

What's more likely is that we're going to have a long Thanksgiving weekend. People will be stuffed and sick of leftovers. Monday will come, and there will be something else to talk about...

Maybe Dan Rather unretires or something.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Liberty Belle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. Did they show the Blackbox video?
What's to look into--all CNN needs to do is show the video of Jeb's stooges putting out trashbags of original records (after giving Bev fakes) and the conclusion is obvious to anyone with half a brain. Which rules out the current White House occupant, of course.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-23-04 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Okay
Number 1:

HOW do YOU know that the GARBAGE wasn't just Garbage? Because someone told you that and you want to believe it so bad that you will..

Have you SEEN the tapes? Nope, me neither.. will they be released so that EVERYONE here and elsewhere and crunch them?

Nope.

Number 2: Do people REALLY want the media to mention that someone dug through garbage and "found" results?

Don't you think that would make the whole movement look wacko or fringe?

Seriously. I have a film out now about E Voting and I don't want to lose MOney because the Media calls us a bunch of garbage scrounging 20%'rs ?(Brown announced, tho I believe it's BS that 80% "think" it was a fair election - like they know where their votes go..)

Did SHE file a lawsuit? Nope.

Can we get some Facts please instead of sheer PR?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Doremus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. That 20% figure that Aaron used...
... Who do you suppose they are?

We know they aren't the people who get their news from MSM. They all think everything's wonderful in the land of milk and honey and Bush and Cheney.

I think the vast majority of that minority are US -- people who read the internet and distrust the corporate media. IOW, people with a healthy skepticism and even healthier drive to find the truth.

On the positive side, just imagine how large that percentage will be once this subject starts to get a little air time.

Or at least I hope so. Course, I'm the eternal optimist. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 06:39 AM
Response to Reply #10
31. Being amongst that 20%,
I was also part of the 25% who didn't want to go to war with Iraq. I had already learned, through not the help of mainstream media, that the proof for WMD was more than shaky.

Also remember the 75% that thought, because of Bushspeak, that Iraq was behind 9/11.

The 80% who do believe that the election was fair are just uninformed, and once this does break through the mainstream, many more will be as doubtful about the validity of the election, as we are.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spotbird Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #31
41. I was part of the 9% who still didn't like Bush after 9/11.
That number made me realize just how far out of the mainstream I am.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FloridaCrat Donating Member (160 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #41
46. I'm in the 9% too - I didn't like him before, during, AND After 9/11
Did you see him sit there and DO NOTHING when the buildings were being hit !!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #46
68. Same here!
I had just spent a miserable year hunting for a job after a divorce, only to find one and lose it in a month because of the economy. I was up searching want-ads on 9/11 and cursing Shrub.

The first few days of 9/11 coverage, while the presi-nut was still in seclusion God-knows-where, saw some tough, investigative pieces from the lame-stream media. All of these were stuffed to the very way-side after Shrub's "electrifying" speech while standing on murder victims in a pile of rubble.

I shuddered at his cowboy attitude, realized "Yee-Haw" isn't a foreign policy and just knew he would screw the whole thing up.

Sadly, I was right.

Nine percenter, here, too.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #41
65. I feel your pain...
Me too! "I was part of the 9% who still didn't like Bush after 9/11." I actually have a friend who was way ahead of me, though: His first thought, upon seeing the planes hit the towers was "This is our Reichstag fire." The evidence to support his "conspiracy theory" hasn't exactly appeared in Newsweek yet, but the weirder things get the less likely I am to point my finger at anyone else and accuse them of needing a tin foil hat. :(
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 01:18 AM
Response to Reply #41
75. When he stood there with the bullhorn, I thought he was a buffoon
So I guess I was part of that 9% too.

I was living in complacent numbness prior to the election of 2000, and when Bush would not allow a recount in Florida, I knew he was less than honorable. Wouldn't someone who aspired to become president wish to win fairly and know that they honestly won?

I was also against going to war in Afghanistan. I recall before he stormed in there that the Taliban were willing to give Bin Laden over to a third party Islamic country, and I didn't understand why Bush chose to destroy Afghanistan instead of taking up the Taliban's offer. It didn't take me all that long to find out why. War was planned against Afghanistan well before 9/11, and now the pipeline is being built, and the poppy is flourishing...........

This man's whole agenda has been fraudulent, a lie, and yet so many swallow his swill.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. "I have a film out now about E Voting and I don't want to lose MOney....."
.......Hmmmmm :evilgrin:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yowzayowzayowza Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Waddayano...
Refreshing honesty. At least he didn't threaten to sue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
28. Oh Pat, you're so mean!
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 06:04 AM by demobabe
But Symbolman left out the part where he forgot to solicit donations on the DU to cover travel expenses, meals, etc. to cover travelling all over the US to make the film and interview folks like Greg Palast, Danny Schechter, Jim Hightower, William Rivers Pitt, Janeane Garofalo, Theresa Lapore, all the candidates in New Hampshire, Avi Rubin, David Dill, Congressman Wexler, Cynthia McKinney, Kevin Shelley, Barbara Boxer, Don Siegelman, Larry Flynt, The Nation Magazine folks, Billionaires for Bush, League of Pissed Off Voters, disenfranchised felons, voters waiting in lines for 6 hours in Florida during election day... and many many others, plus take time to create many new animations...

Oh, and Symbolman also left out the part where he forgot to threaten to sue the DU. ;)

(And speaking of not losing money, the DVD is available on Buzzflash!)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:28 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. THE BAG WAS MARKED SHREADER! AND THE REST WAS IN THE DUMPSTER!


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
F.Gordon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #9
17. The 80% figure is probably fairly accurate
I don't have the totals handy, and just have the 2 party numbers. Also looks like Florida was the perfect place to conduct a "fraud audit"...

Question: Do you think your vote was counted accurately?

Nationally / those that answered YES
Democrats: 57%
Republicans: 94%

Florida / those that answered YES
Democrats: 27%
Republicans: 96%
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
66. Great poll!
Have you got the link to the complete numbers? :kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
F.Gordon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #66
72. Ummm...welcome to DU?
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 09:40 PM by F.Gordon
Not sure why you think it's a great poll. I think it's depressing. But maybe you're looking at it from a different perspective.

Sorry, I can't link it. It's over 2,000 pages and it requires a little moolah to gain access to it.

Edit? Moohlah? Moolah? Not sure?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #72
73.  If 43% of Dems do NOT believe their vote was counted accurately...
then maybe 'someone' will listen to us. Also, the last number I heard was that about 2/3's of Dems (66%) thought the election had been fair & square - maybe the national mood is swinging just a bit. Maybe. I live in Indiana and our (wuss of a Democrat) Senator Evan Bayh doesn't do anything without consulting the polls -- but if the polls lead, he will follow.

Finally, if 63% of Florida Dems do not believe their vote was counted accurately, then maybe they will push for a recount. There have been local papers in Florida that have been doing a good job reporting on possible vote fraud - and local papers print what their subscribers want to read. The Floridians learned the lesson of 2000: Gore won Florida when it was recounted after Bush had been appointed President. The Voter News Service exit polls that called Florida for Gore were accurate. The votes of Floridian Democrats were discounted in 2000 and they remember it well.

We may not have people in the streets demanding justice like in the Ukraine, but for the US sheeple to begin to admit doubts this soon after the election is progress.

And - yes - this *is* depressing in so many ways. But maybe less depressing than it was a day ago... :eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
F.Gordon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #73
77. My concern is the concentrated "voter confidence"
A little more detail....

Do you feel your vote was counted accurately?
National Numbers / Those that answered YES

Democrat 56.6%
Republican 94.4%
Independent 72.1%

Those that Voted for Bush: 95.2%
Those that Voted for Kerry: 53.3%
Those that Voted for Nader: 39.0%

Progressive: 49.3%
Liberal: 55.1%
Moderate: 69.0%
Conservative: 94.8%
Very Conservative: 94.2%
Libertarian: 82.3%

Male: 80.6%
Female: 69.2%

Much, much more. The numbers start out low in the 18-24 age group then increase as the age groups get higher. Same with income. Starts low and gets higher as the income levels increase.

Do you see the pattern here? The voter confidence level is lowest in the core demographics of the Democratic base. This is why I'm so hard on the BBVers and the "voter fraud" people, especially when they present bogus information. While their intentions may be good they are helping to damage the Democratic Party by reducing the level of voter confidence.

And despite the comments about being "non-partisan", you can see what groups that the BBVers and "voter fraud" people really appeal to.

In 2004 Kerry had to compete with the ABB voter. In 2008 I fear our canidate will be competing with the BBV "non" voter.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #77
100. Your concern about voter confidence is on target and...
if voter confidence is low because there really *is* hacking then we have a bigger problem than the fact that low confidence will reduce numbers of Democrats in the next election. The bigger problems: The likelihood that we will get voter-verified paper trails in the next election with Republican executive, legislative, and judicial branches is very low (sorry). Also, you can't stop a bully by giving in and telling yourself that you will be ready for them/stand up to them 'next time'.

Republicans seem to have gotten away with vote fraud in 2000: The Republicans got the vote count stopped and most people believe to this day that Bush won. This is *not* true. The New York Times reported in November of 2001 that the statewide recount of votes conducted after Bush was appointed to the Presidency revealed that Gore won Florida in 2000. (Thus the Voter News Service exit poll that called Florida for Gore in 2000 was accurate). Bev Harris (Chapter 13 of Black Box Voting) presents memos from Volusia County employee Lana Hires and from Vice President of Global Election Systems Talbot Iredale that make it look a whole lot like vote hacking impacted the networks calling Florida for Bush (and thus putting the Republicans in a position to refer to Al as "Sore Loserman" and turn public and court sentiment against a recount). How did vote hacking cause this? A vote tally of NEGATIVE 16,022 votes was uploaded in Volusia county for Gore during election evening. This, along with several other vote tabluation 'errors' in Bush' favor -- made the gap between Bush and Gore widen for a time during that evening. It was during this time period that John Ellis of FOX news (and cousin of George W. and Jeb Bush) called Florida for Bush. Other stations followed pretty quickly. How did the -16,022 votes wind up in Gore's tally? According to Iredale, a second memory card was used to upload votes -- it was not the master (0), it was different card (3) -- and, oh yes, it only affected the Presidential vote totals.

Did the bully, having gotten away with vote fraud get stronger in 2002? It is reasonable to suspect that Diebold had a big role to play in Coleman's win over Mondale and Chambliss' win over Cleland. There is some evidence of Diebold vote fraud in the 2003 California recall election, too. And...there was a negative vote tally reported for Kerry in Ohio during this election.

If vote fraud in multiple states really did turn a hard-won Kerry victory into a Bush win and we don't reveal it, then we are all living a lie. I don't know what happens after we find and reveal it, but I do believe that truth matters a whole, whole lot.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndyOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-27-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #77
108. PLEASE help...
You said that you couldn't provide a link to the poll. Whose poll was it Gallup, Roper, Harris, USA Today?

I included the info in a letter to a journalist and need to know...

Thanks! :bounce:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rfrrfrrfr Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #9
18. Umm
Go to

http://www.blackboxvoting.org and read the announcements there. Where Bev found signed vote tapes in the garbage Thats what we are talking about.

AND

"Did SHE file a lawsuit? Nope."

Why yes they did.It was just filed today. In one of the various threads on this issue they even have the case number so you can go look for yourself it you want
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AimeeMM Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 01:41 AM
Response to Reply #9
20. How do I know? MY LYING EYES TOLD ME!
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 01:42 AM by AimeeMM
Number 1:
I was sitting in the old Volusia Dems office when the bags of trash came in. I SAW the tapes that were THROWN AWAY. I SAW the memos regarding "Republican Only" events. I SAW the handwritten lists of Democratic Poll Watchers (why when there were also hundreds of printed lists of Republican, Democrat & other wise in the trash, as well?). This time I'm going to believe my lying eyes.

Number 2:
SHE (Bev) didn't file the lawsuit because SHE isn't a resident of Volusia County. I don't know where you live or where you have lived, but in Florida there are two groups of people: those who've lived here all their life and those who moved here from "up North". Having someone from "up North" (where ever that North may be) would NOT, I repeat NOT, go over well with the locals. Having a resident backed by lawyers who are also residents is far more powerful in this state and particular county.

You can believe what you want, but I saw it. If there is any valid reason why the tapes from election night - signed by the poll clerks - do not match what the "official" results are, then Deanie Lowe needs to explain.

Sorry if I sound rude, but this is my home and right now the SOE's office smells like shit.

Edited to add: the SHE (Susan Pynchon) that did file the lawsuit has been working with Bev since BBV arrived in town.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deansyawp Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #20
21. What is the Next Step?
AimeeMM, first of all thank you for all of the excellent work you folks are doing down there. Can you tell us more about where the lawsuit goes now, how quickly things can be expected to move? I assume nothing at all will really begin until early next week.

Most importantly, what recompense is Ms. Pynchon requesting? That is, what is the desired outcome of this suit?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AimeeMM Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 02:05 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. As of right now I'm not sure, did not talk to Susan since Saturday...
but I will be seeing her tomorrow. When we last discussed the next steps, a lawsuit was not in the works at this point. Today she was with lawyers and reporters most of the time and I didn't get to speak to her but briefly on the phone.

I will definitely update you all with whatever I'm allowed to let out. Coming to this board was a great help in getting me back on my feet after the election. I don't think I would have had the courage or motivation to go back to the local Dem HQ and get involved in all this if not for the like minds at DU.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deansyawp Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Thanks!
Your work is very, very much appreciated. We look forward to updates if and when you get the chance.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
deansyawp Donating Member (64 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Details on the Lawsuit in the Daytona Beach News-Journal
Just found this in Google News, with many more details on Susan Pynchon's lawsuit.

Here: http://www.news-journalonline.com/NewsJournalOnline/New...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AimeeMM Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 02:32 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. You beat me to it :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rjbny62 Donating Member (203 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:19 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. a day late
article says

"The suit comes one day too late to meet a state law requiring that such complaints be filed within 10 days of an election's certification, but Vaughen says an exception should be made in part because of delays in getting records from the Volusia County Department of Elections."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AimeeMM Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #32
43. But not too late for the state races -
so it will be amended to address the Castor/Martinez senate race if need be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jo March Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
70. Aimee, whatever you need, ask
There are those of us here who are itching to help.

I compiled some numbers and sent them to Bev before. I didn't get to do much for Colorado but was able to help with WV and NC.

I really need to get a better computer but I'll do the best with what I have.

I appreciate all that you are doing and have done.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. Let me repeat
what I've said before.

One: BBV was proud to have brought us a federal agent to the DU(remember everyone saying "Hi Mike!") who is quite capable of monitoring this and other boards.

Two: They had plenty of notice that people were on their way, FOIA, phone calls, demands, etc.

Three: Anyone that wanted to (even freepers) could alert them to BBV's MO (digging through trash as in their trailer) - even Agent Mike could have alerted them as well. (As I recall they found a lunch menu in the trash or am I missing something?)

Four: They could "sting" Harris by sticking "junk" in garbage bags, if nothing else to discredit the entire movement... were you at the SCENE itself? Sounds like you weren't.

Five: I have a dog in this fight as do many others who have spent a long time investigating this defrauding of the american public, and I demand PROOF and Results like any sane person would, especially the MEDIA who can slice and dice (having been on major cable shows I know how it works - plus we aren't called Takebackthemedia for nothing, we've done a LOT ourselves..) your credibility to pieces.. look what they did to Howard Dean with ONE SOUND CLIP.

and I don't want ANYONE to discredit the hard work SO MANY are doing with looks like to me a lot of grandstanding and PR to sell their future film - (Is she going to sell a film and is filming all this for that reason, for personal gain? Is that what's being funded with these donations? I'd really like to know that.)

Digging through garbage that may or may not have any results or impact may make for great storytelling or filmmaking, but when the media gets hold of it, we will ALL be marginalized.

I think some people here are out of control and wishing so hard for ANYTHING to change the election that they have lost all reason.

How about releasing the tapes, papers, whatever so that EVERYONE, including those here can crunch them or is this the very lack of transparency we complain about in the BUsh administration.

Handwritten lists of Democratic Pollwatchers? So what? Isn't everything documented? I mean, what do you mean when you say that?

There's an awful lot of context missing here..

I don't think you're rude. I think you're passionate and I hope that someone can make a difference but I haven't seen any PROOF.

Anyone can launch a lawsuit - people sue people for lots of reasons.. our site got sued for basically NO REASON by Michael Savage (We won) for a half a million bucks.

Is Susan a lawyer? What KIND of lawyer? Is she a citizen?

Lots more questions than answers, lying eyes or not.

No offense taken.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gore1FL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 05:21 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. The polling tapes they found were signed by election officials
That is pretty significant in and of itself. That the signed tapes didn;t match the results is even more significant.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
61. I hope so
I really do.. but I've seen a lot of bluster, smoke and mirrors and I simply don't TRUST some folks anymore..

the boy who cried wolf comes to mind.. except when the village has high turnover some never figure it out..
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AimeeMM Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #26
42. I'm sorry, but...
I'm done defending this lawsuit and the actions by several concerned citizens in my county to expose voter fraud so you feel better about your movie profits.

Do you really think that posting everything and showing the world all the cards will help the lawsuit?

As far as trash digging is concerned, if it exposes fraud, then I really don't care what anyone thinks of it.

No, Susan is not a lawyer, however she has three local lawyers working on the case, that I know of, and probably several others behind the scenes. I do not know what type of lawyers they are, I didn't ask. But I'll give you names of two - Dan Vaughen & Anita Lapidus. The third is in a local firm and I'm not sure that she wants to be named. If it turns out she doesn't care, I'll be sure to let you know so you can check on her as well.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #42
60. MY movie profits?
What about BBV MOVIE PROFITS?!

You never answered that question.. thanks for the other answers tho..

and I would defend voting rights as well -- that's WHY we made our film.. we ALREADY spent tens of thousands on it..

we didn't come on the DU and create PR to get money.. defending profits has nothing to do with putting all your eggs in one basket and having that basket get SLAUGHTERED by the media.. and we get drug along for the ride..

not to mention we doubt that we'll even make our money back, we did this to inform and educate people..

If you have ever visited my website you would see that we've done PLENTY fighting this administration - we've cost Limbaugh MAJOR sponsors with boycotts.. we ran ARMY OF ONE as a film 3000 times supporting troops during the NH primaries, we were one of 14 finalist out of 1600 entries in MoveOn.org's BUsh in 30 seconds contest..

We were sued by Michael Savage to the tune of a half a million bucks!

I don't think you've made a fair statement re: movie profits - shows how low people can get.. not only do they threaten to SUE the DU - they also run around insulting anyone that doesn't agree with them..

thanks a lot - I wish you a LOT of luck - but keep your dog from crapping in MY YARD please..

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #42
63. "Showing the cards"
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 08:03 PM by demobabe
AimeeMM says:

"Do you really think that posting everything and showing the world all the cards will help the lawsuit?"

Um, these POLL TAPES, aren't they PUBLIC INFORMATION? And isn't this what Freedom of Information Act is all about?

If we're talking about PUBLIC INFORMATION, then why is it being kept under wraps by private citizens??? Movie fodder, perhaps?

If you're worried about the other side getting an advantage by "seeing all the cards," I have news for you: the other side sees "all the cards" anyway through a process called Discovery in court.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 07:06 AM
Response to Reply #26
76. For someone who framed the public perception of 2 million MoveOn.org
members as "fringe whacko's" with your Bush Nazi animation you have a lot of nerve to talk about Bev and what she's accomplished.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 03:17 PM
Response to Reply #76
95. Whaaaat????
Where do you get THIS from?

Yes, Symbolman created an animation titled "Bush is NOT a nazi, so stop saying that." But THIS animation has in no way EVER been associated with MoveOn.org.

Take Back The Media was one of MoveOn's 16 finalists in their "Bush in 30 Seconds" contest for the commercial "Army of One." Symbolman appeared on Joe Scarborough's show and Joe played "Army of One" and LIKED the ad, complimented Symbolman and even said he thought this ad was outside the realm of MoveOn's usual scope. Which was the idea: to appeal to as large of an audience as possible with an irrefutable argument: "if we can support the troops, then why can't Bush?" Symbolman also went on to defend and support MoveOn during the segment on Scarborough. No mention of Nazis were made.

The Nazi flap you're referring to resulted from two contest entries by other folks (with no connection with TBTM) posted on MoveOn's website with all the other contest entries.

Drudge got it wrong (surprise of all surprises), in linking Symbolman to the Bush/Nazi contest entries. And to say that Symbolman had anything to do with the media's characterization of MoveOn for a flash animation he'd created more than a year prior to the MoveOn contest is absurd. Symbolman succeeded in bringing more attention to MoveOn and their contest which in turn helped raise more money for their efforts leading up to this last election. MoveOn even called TBTM about the Michael Savage lawsuit against TBTM early on when they had the idea to expose FOX's spin machine (did you see "Outfoxed"?).

Symbolman has done more to promote the cause than you could ever know, and you sincerely owe him an apology.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #76
97. This is patently untrue and has never been true.
every word is false.

I'm going to give you a chance to apologise.

Because you are now making statements designed to assassinate my character on a public forum with intent and misinformation and with full knowledge that what you have said is untrue.

This goes beyond attacking a DU'r which is against the rules in and of itself.

Besides an apology I want you to have your statement deleted from this thread.

If this was the good old days I would the throwing down a glove right now.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #97
102. Apologize? For pointing out an easily demonstrable truth?
LOL! :evilgrin:

Have you ever heard of the 'law of unintended consequences'?

Like it or not Mike, your name and your animation have been repeatedly linked on line and in the press with the MoveOn Bush in 30 seconds contest. It's a fact. And it's also a lie. Just like the Niger uranium story.

You can deny it till the cows come home but a simple Google search of either your real name or screen name with MoveOn.org gets hundreds of hits referring to your Bush Nazi animation. It's been linked in the publics mind for close to a year now.

Is it accurate? No. Is it fair? No. Is it true that people perceive a link between the two? Yes. Like it or not.


Many here may feel the B/H comparison is apt to some degree, however most of the public pay little attention to history or politics and see that comparison as both hyperbolic and vitriolic. By creating that work and promoting it concurrent to your 'Army of One' submission to the MoveOn competition, you inadvertently handed the right wing spin machine everything they needed to slander 2 million MoveOn.org members.

I know you didn't intend for that to happen and it wasn't fair for anyone to portray MoveOn.org as having any connection to you or that ad, but the fact remains that there is a strong public perception in a large segment of the population that 'people who support MoveOn.org think Bush=Hitler!' thanks in no small part to you. Unintended consequences.

Your ad was so effective at delivering it's message that it was turned against us. You framed the references, (Bush = Hitler) and the visuals and presented the argument in a way that many here might appreciate but you also promoted it to the general public where it gained attention and was picked up on. In the end you got slaughtered by the press along with MoveOn.

I only mentioned it because you seemed to be really worried that Bev might create a 'public perception' that all voting activists are "garbage pickers" because she found much of her hard evidence in the trash.

I don't know why you seem so concerned that something Bev does in her investigations might somehow negatively reflect on you or your work. I don't think she wastes any time thinking about how your actions might impact her work, though she might have reason to.

Do you think someone from a 'non partisan' non profit tax exempt voting rights organization would be right to question your participation as a voting rights activist lest there be a possibility that the press will portray all activists as endorsers of your Bush / Hitler meme because you're "one of us"?

Would I be legitimate in my concerns that many on the right in this country might tune out the voting rights message altogether, no matter how factual or well presented, because of who it is presenting the message and what other opinions they may have expressed in public?

Don't I have the same right to question your actions and how they might affect me and my mission as you have to question Bev and how her actions might affect you?

I wouldn't be so concerned about how much Bev's actions might cost you.
If I were you I'd be more concerned about correcting my own self inflicted damage that could undermine my credibility to more than half the potential audience for the message I'm trying to sell in my documentary.

I recall that when the whole Bush = Hitler meme broke here that many centrists and moderates on this board pleaded that we not use it because it would "make us all look bad". They were accused by some as being freepers and trolls who were trying to squelch the truth and censor peoples personal opinions. In retrospect they were quite prophetic in their predictions. Drudge and the rest were only too happy to oblige and break out the big brush to paint us all in the image of your memorable analogy. That false public perception still exists and stands ready and waiting as a foundation to be built upon to smear any group or issue that your name is associated with from here on out. When ultimately the connection is made that "Hey! Isn't the guy who made this the same guy who compared Bush to Hitler?", please don't try to blame Bev or anyone else for the fallout. You'll be a victim of your own success. As will the rest of us. :(

I'll fight to my dying breath for your right to express your opinion but don't expect me to endorse it or agree with your wisdom in expressing it the way you did. You created the beast and set it free therefore you are partly culpable for the damage ultimately done by it. Your mock indignation does nothing to alter that fact.

Good luck with your ticket sales. :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
symbolman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 03:46 AM
Response to Reply #102
105. Here
Edited on Fri Nov-26-04 03:52 AM by symbolman
read the truth - read YOUR post when I was going on MSNBC's Joe Scarborough's show to REFUTE the connection erroneously made by Drudge..

READ about how I stood up for MOVEON on the show, how our ad MOVED even Joe the Scar - we had him cornered he couldn't diss MoveOn without Dissing the Troops.. He HAD to agree that Bush wasn't supporting them, and it was sweet..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

WATCH the video of me on the show and what I said.

http://66.230.230.110/radio/sym-1-13.rm

I appreciate the links, tho I didn't see a single one (other than Drudge who got it wrong) associating ME with MoveOn Nazi entries.

That's TWICE now that you've posted from La la land - I've got nothing more to say to you, the thread says everything about me, and my relationship to and with the DU.

I don't lie here, I don't try to fool anyone, I respect those that earn it and it gets returned.

You want to keep drinking the koolaid, go nuts, you've earned it with this post.

Anyone else wants the truth, buy our film - we made it BEFORE we promoted it.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

*****

ON EDIT - Just thought I'd post one of your quotes here from further down the thread -- interesting, here it is:

"I find it absolutely fascinating that people who are doing nothing of any real consequence can have such strong opinions about the value of the real work being done by others."

man, that says it all.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #102
106. Quote your sources! Oh, wait -- YOU CAN'T
"You can deny it till the cows come home but a simple Google search of either your real name or screen name with MoveOn.org gets hundreds of hits referring to your Bush Nazi animation. It's been linked in the publics mind for close to a year now."

Okay Pat: let's see those hundreds of links. Let's see those press articles where he got "slaughtered."

Ooops! They don't exist - and never did.

Even Media Whore Joe Scarborough didn't go there because he knew it wasn't true and he'd look stupid saying that.

And there is a word for the "facts" you've stated in your posting about Symbolman:

Libel.

Stupid. Don't attack other DUers.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 06:01 AM
Response to Reply #20
29. thanks for the report!
Since you saw the tapes, how do they compare with the other printouts Bev was given that were made on the 15th? Do they match, or are there significant discrepancies? Inquiring minds want to know!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AimeeMM Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #29
40. More about the tapes:
Susan just called me and I was able to get info on the tapes.

Missing tapes: I think there were 25 or so precincts where the clerk *forgot* to make copies then couldn't find originals anyway - hence the trip to the storage facility and scene of the shredder-bound trash bags. They found most of them, but I believe there are still 10-15 that are unaccounted for.

Tapes that don't match: some of these were missing in the beginning, then found and do not match *official* results. In one precinct - a heavily Republican one in DeLand - the signed tapes found in the trash were something like 245 Bush 211 Kerry. The *official* results posted 800+ Bush 211 Kerry. That 211 may not be the right number, but I know it was in the very low 200s. Poll workers were contacted and said there was no way they had 1000+ voters that day. I don't know how it works where you live, but here we mostly have cute little old ladies who get a thrill out of checking the voter tally every 5 minutes. I was a poll watcher during the primary in Aug and general in Nov and these little ladies know exactly how many and who voted that day.

Cut off tapes: This is a good one - apparently there are several tapes that have some races cut off. No explanation, just cut off a few races. I don't know which races or how many precincts, but I think that's pretty darned interesting.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #40
44. Thank you, AimeeMM!!
:yourock:

I appreciate and admire all of your work, dedication, and determination!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
F.Gordon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #40
50. There are no official results that come close to those #'s
the signed tapes found in the trash were something like 245 Bush 211 Kerry. The *official* results posted 800+ Bush 211 Kerry. That 211 may not be the right number, but I know it was in the very low 200s.

Especially in Deland. I agree with the film maker above who posted about transparency in elections. If this is the objective here, then simply post the precinct number and the exact vote count that is in dispute.

I know you won't, but I had to ask. Since we are all playing "guess the fraud" it looks like it may still be Precinct 215 and I'd be more than happy to address this Precinct and the rest of the Volusia County "story" if you'd be so kind as to confirm this for me.

;)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AimeeMM Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. I've been asked...
not to post specific precinct numbers at this time due to the lawsuit. Everything will come out, but they want to get before a judge and get the required info from the SOE first. The most important thing right now is to keep the lawsuit moving and not jeopordize it by exposing everything to everyone.

You are right, though, in that my numbers in the above post were off. Though the margin of difference from the precinct *alluded* to is still in the hundreds in one direction only. I was going off a quick run down given to me late last week and was not taking notes. From now on I won't give numbers at all in order to avoid mistating. I'd rather be less detailed than have anyone else questioning our "story."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
F.Gordon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. So it is Precinct 215?
Were the added votes for bush, reported in the hundreds, somewhere around 307? If so, ask me how I know that?

I completely understand the need to protect your disclosure. What I don't understand, give the nature of the lawsuit, is why you aren't filing this with the State. The lawsuit would imply violation of Florida State statutes that would require the State to conduct an independent audit of Volusia County.

But, maybe that is your plan pending the results of your County lawsuit.

Sorry. I'm asking too many questions. I wouldn't become more and more curiousier (sic) if the information we did receive was accurate.

You did admit that you were wrong but gave the reason as being "I was going off a quick run down given to me late last week and was not taking notes." You're right. You shouldn't post any information here. Especially since the information you did post wasn't factual.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AimeeMM Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Okay, no more posts. Get your info from the Media.
I got one set of numbers wrong, though the outcome still correct, and now I shouldn't post? Okay, done. I'll say no more. Read about it on CNN.com instead.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
F.Gordon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Don't take it so personally
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 12:52 PM by F.Gordon
I'm not telling you not to post on DU. That's what other DUers tell me to do. Well, they actually tell me that I should leave DU.

I was agreeing with you that you shouldn't post details regarding the lawsuit. I understood why this would be the right thing to do.

Post away!!!

Edit? See, I made a mistake and corrected it. (grammer)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noonriser Donating Member (216 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. Please don't leave the rest of us in the dark
because of a bully or two. Most of us really appreciate your updates and thank you for your hard work and determination.

:loveya: :loveya:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. AMEN!!
We get almost nothing from the MSM. Please continue to keep us posted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bunny planet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Definitely looked like her story was edited down to nothing.
She was reduced to opening a door and a one-liner. I'm sure she expected more coverage and just got spliced.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I agree.
I think there was more but the producers at CNN cut a lot out. It's too bad DUer Newsguyatl isn't posting anymore. He would know the scoop.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. yep, the media news whores will not spit in the face of Rupert Murdoch,
bushco and more...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 06:10 AM
Response to Reply #14
30. The fact CNN is covering potential vote fraud is a good thing
This is the first step to getting more media attention to the issue. Once one network is on board, they'll all jump on it. Particularly encouraging is that Aaron Brown didn't dismiss the whole issue out of hand, and Rebecca Mercuri had some good quotes (she's been on this issue since nearly forever - years before the Democratic Underground, in fact).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
nolabels Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #30
47. The fact CNN is covering potential vote fraud is a BAD thing
In effect they are ones that will be the dispensers to dish out the disinformation with just these few tidbits that will be used later to (dishonestly) discredit people.

Most of these media whores never have shown any integrity in their reporting why would you think they would be doing it now?

For heavens sakes, them people you see on the screen are just mostly news readers with a pleasant appearance that used to lull you into thinking everything is okay.
Wake up and observe what you are observing :think:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
demobabe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #47
67. I understand your points
And the media works exactly the way you say it does namely because we have six corporations that own it all.

But this is the media we have, and regardless of the fact they're not working in OUR interests, they do reach a LOT of people - far more than our blogisphere, internet, etc... and they do have to cover some of the issues we bring up - it becomes unavoidable.

We have to make the news; the news media makes entertainment... but the more we can get them to use our phrases and cover our stories, the info DOES gradually get out there.

I'll leave you with a quote from Take Back The Media's new Electile Dysfunction movie:

CBS Crew: Who are you?

TBTM: We're Take Back The Media!

CBS Crew: Who are you going to take the media back from? US? What are you going to do, knock our camera over? :)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:24 AM
Response to Original message
33. So, did I miss something big? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. From BBV
Volusia County lawsuit alleges irregularities in Nov. 2, 2004 election
Full text of lawsuit

Summary of allegations

a. The Supervisor of Elections has unreasonably delayed providing information.

b. The certification was based on inadequate and incomplete information regarding the election results.

6. Some or all of the information requested on Nov. 2, 2004 by Black Box Voting is still missing from 59 of the 179 voting precincts, including portions of or all of the voting machine tapes for those 59 precincts, which are a vital part of official paper record of the election results from those precincts.

7. Complete information on problems with the voting machines prior to and during the election has not been provided.

8. Complete information relating to memory card failures during the election has not yet been provided.

9. Only a partial list of the transmission logs from the Accu-Vote optical scan server has been provided. Despite repeated requests, the Elections office has refused to provide to the Volusia County Democratic party the official election results, now stating that those results will not be available until December 1, 2004.

10. The Elections office has provided incomplete data regarding Early Voting and Absentee ballots. The Supervisor of Elections, for example, reported that the total number of absentee ballots and Early voting ballots, combined equaled 89,999 votes, yet the published figures for those totals is 84,100 votes, leaving over 5,800 votes unaccounted for.

11. In addition to the pattern of delay in providing the requested information, the true election results are in doubt because of numerous violations of election law procedure and unanswered questions concerning the results.

12. The polls were opened early and closed late during Early Voting.

13. Many public records, including one signed results tape from a voting machine were found in the trash. Many of the requested records not furnished by the Elections office have been found in the trash. Results from the tapes found in the trash do not match the results of the copies of tapes furnished.

14. An email from Mark Earley, of Diebold Elections Systems, Inc., to the Elections office was provided which asked the recipient for an explanation of why Volusia County had more memory card failures than all of their other Florida customers combined, and then asked why the 17 memory card failures which the Elections office reported on November 3, increased to 25 before November 12, 2004.

15. The reported memory card failures were significant and troubling and included reporting zero votes after one week of voting, requesting permission to upload votes before the voting began, and messaging whether the card should be reformatted.

16. According to a statement by the Supervisor of Elections on November 17, 2004, the GEMS computer is not networked, and is "stand alone." The furnished computer logs show evidence of at least two attempts to remotely access the GEMS central tabulator, which is claimed to be secure. A computer screen shot printout on November 17, 2004 (found in the trash) shows that the GEMS computer at that time had two networked hard drives.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. This is big!
Thank you Melissa!

16. According to a statement by the Supervisor of Elections on November 17, 2004, the GEMS computer is not networked, and is "stand alone." The furnished computer logs show evidence of at least two attempts to remotely access the GEMS central tabulator, which is claimed to be secure. A computer screen shot printout on November 17, 2004 (found in the trash) shows that the GEMS computer at that time had two networked hard drives.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
spooked Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. HOLY SHITE!!!!
That is HUGE!!

This is exactly what that "hacker" posted! That it is so easy to hack the GEMS software and change the numbers within a couple of minutes!

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Critical Thinker Donating Member (118 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
69. HUGE !!
Proof of networked hard drives in the GEMS tabulator would be a very significant development...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Paradise Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Thanks much, MelissaB! n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. HUGE imo


They can have the film footage/ photos and ten minute segments about the election results in a far off land. Candidate that lost putting his hand on the Bible and protesters all over the street!

Here we get a two minute segment that dances around some major in our OWN country ---CNN should be sued for supressing the news!

I say picket CNN and Fox.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lthuedk Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #45
93. Media and Bush:cartoon
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #34
51. Central Vote Tabulation: Redux & Plea
Cross post from dKos and quote:

In my original Diary I requested consideration and action, to whatever extent considered reasonable by the dKos community.

I repeat that request now, and hope that we can leverage what Susan Pynchon and her colleagues in Volusia FL, in collaboration with Bev Harris and her team, have launched.

Specifically, I urge all of you to mount an effort to identify the 'central tabulation centers' in each State. And, through whatever legal mechanisms are required, to request and obtain records of those persons having physical access to the systems as well as telecom logs of all data/voice communications connections to the hosting centers.

I make this request not in the spirit of "Kerry over Bush" but in the spirit of all the Diaries I have posted here in the past 21 days -- our franchise is broken; it is Our responsibility to fix it, now.

We have not had a valid election, because almost no one can answer the simple question -- "If you voted, do you know If and How your vote was recorded"?

So, in the spirit of "Prove My Vote Counts, Now" I urge all of you to bring items 18 and 19 of the Complaint to the attention of every State SoS, every State AG, every Congressperson , every reporter, every citizen you know personally.

We must repair our franchise, now, with the same focused intensity and zeal as those folk in the Ukraine are demonstrating to themselves and the world.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/24/115048/86

Thank you and Happy Thanskgiving.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
maryallen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. Thanks for your heroic efforts, understandinglife ...
I read your stuff on kos and appreciate it so much.

This may come to nothing, but we have to try ...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Thank you; it is Our franchise and Ours to repair...
....we either do it or it will never happen. The Ukrainians will have a Democracy; we will not.

Thus, I do what little I can and encourage others to do their best.

We can prevail if we want to.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
lthuedk Donating Member (551 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #34
71. No, its not. This is a generic civil lawsuit. To be big, it would have
to encompass 50 states and be a criminal case. This in and of itself will not overturn the election. We need something

BIG.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
noclonyofthechimp Donating Member (656 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
37. It may have been about the GAO conducting the investigation or it
could have been about the suit filed in Volusia??
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DTinAZ Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
48. people won't take BlackBoxVoting.org seriously...
...until those silly "reaction photos" (Whuuut? etc.) are removed from the BBV home page. The effect that those stupid photos surely have on visitors to the site is to detract from the credibility of BBV, lending creedence to the "tinfoil hat" characterization by the other side.

The argument that Bev and Co. are too busy to remove the photos doesn't hold water, because it would take maybe 30 seconds to zap the image tags from the page during one of the infrequent updates to the site. I gave some of my hard-earned money to BBV and so I support the "cause," but if anyone can get Bev or Andy (or whoever) to zap those photos, it would certainly benefit the impression given by their website.

DT in AZ
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Kralizec Donating Member (982 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Have to agree with you
Edited on Wed Nov-24-04 11:14 AM by Kralizec
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #49
74. I have to say that those photos make the site look less
legitimate. Although, I personally appreciate them, when I saw them I thought "if more conservative types see this, they will dismiss everything that is on this web site."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DTinAZ Donating Member (325 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #48
54. ...but the solution is coming...
I finally got word from Bev (over in the General Discussion group, in the "BBV: Volusia County lawsuit filed" topic) that the silly photos will be removed from the BBV site in the next day or so.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-24-04 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
53. The big news is a lawsuit, in case folks didn't find it above.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malatesta1137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 12:34 PM
Response to Original message
78. any clue as to what we can expect this "big development" to be?
yes, the big development is that Kerry will wear a red tie at Bush Inauguration. He wants to show the red states that he's not a sore loser, just a plain loser.

A loser who fooled half of Americans into believing he was a fighter, that he was going to make every vote count.

Bush might have deserted Vietnam, but Kerry deserted America.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. i just found this really cool feature that will work very well for me
so that i don't have to hear your shit.

it's called : IGNORE

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malatesta1137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. you can't ignore
the truth
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ParanoidPat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:07 AM
Response to Reply #85
103. Why not? You seem to be doing a GREAT job of it!
I find it absolutely fascinating that people who are doing nothing of any real consequence can have such strong opinions about the value of the real work being done by others.

Why don't you tell us all about your tremendous contributions to the cause that give you the authority to criticize the work of others? :)

I can't wait! :evilgrin:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
kerry-is-my-prez Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 01:08 PM
Response to Reply #79
90. Thanks for reminding me. I'm with you....
I'm going to start using that feature more often myself. There are people here who just try to hijack a thread and turn it into crap.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Actually
"Bush might have deserted Vietnam, but Kerry deserted America"

Kerry is a patriot, a war hero, and is going to make one hell of a President. None of this has changed that at all. A clear majority believe the way he has been under the radar is a completely strategical and intelligent response to the dealings of this election, and though some of us may have wanted to hear his cries for justice a little more outloud, still have faith justice will be served in the end. He in no way has deserted America, and to consider his actions (or lack thereof) as more wrong then all of the Shrub's crimes, well, I'll leave that to my fellow DU'rs to judge the accuracy of. (Personally, It's one of the absolutely worst comments I've read on these boards yet and reminds me of the ignorant rhetoric I would see in AOL chat rooms from far right wingers)

:eyes:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #80
81. thank you for saying what i wanted to say
but was too pissed off to say it
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
malatesta1137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #80
91. show me the money
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. Thanks for kicking this...hugely important info here!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 01:00 PM
Response to Original message
83. Polling tapes missing!
6. A copy of the public records request emailed and faxed to the Supervisor of Elections on November 2, 2004, is attached. Some or all of the information requested is still missing from 59 of the 179 voting precincts, including portions of or all of the voting machine tapes for those 59 precincts, which are a vital part of official paper record of the election results from those precincts.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Election officials won't turn over transmission logs!
9. Only a partial list of the transmission logs from the Accu-Vote optical scan server has been provided. Despite repeated requests, the Elections office has refused to provide to the Volusia County Democratic party the official election results, now stating that those results will not be available until December 1, 2004.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. Signed polling tapes in the trash!
15. Many public records, including one signed results tape from a voting machine were found in the trash. Many of the requested records not furnished by the Elections office have been found in the trash. Results from the tapes found in the trash do not match the results of the copies of tapes furnished.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Signed tapes don't match the numbers reported later!
15. Many public records, including one signed results tape from a voting machine were found in the trash. Many of the requested records not furnished by the Elections office have been found in the trash. Results from the tapes found in the trash do not match the results of the copies of tapes furnished.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. Tabulator was networked, contrary to claims!
Edited on Thu Nov-25-04 01:04 PM by pointsoflight
18. According to a statement by the Supervisor of Elections on November 17, 2004, the GEMS computer is not networked, and is "stand alone." The furnished computer logs show evidence of at least two attempts to remotely access the GEMS central tabulator, which is claimed to be secure. A computer screen shot printout on November 17, 2004 (found in the trash) shows that the GEMS computer at that time had two networked hard drives.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pointsoflight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. Attempts to remotely access the GEMS computer!
18. According to a statement by the Supervisor of Elections on November 17, 2004, the GEMS computer is not networked, and is "stand alone." The furnished computer logs show evidence of at least two attempts to remotely access the GEMS central tabulator, which is claimed to be secure. A computer screen shot printout on November 17, 2004 (found in the trash) shows that the GEMS computer at that time had two networked hard drives.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
92. kick
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #94
96. Not the First time for suspicious activity in Volusia election
other than 2000 there was a lawsuit in 1996 involving absentee votes
http://www.firn.edu/supct/sct/cyber/jan/brief1.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
98. Bev Harris Latest Update Volusia Cnty. getting sued!
Susan Rose Pynchon vs. Volusia County Canvassing Board and Ann McFall
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT
SEVENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA
IN AND FOR VOLUSIA COUNTY, FLORIDA

SUSAN ROSE PYNCHON,
Plaintiff

Vs.

VOLUSIA COUNTY CANVASSING BOARD
And ANN McFALL,
Defendants

____________________________________

COMPLAINT TO CONTEST ELECTION

Plaintiff, Susan Rose Pynchon, sues the Volusia County Canvassing Board and Ann McFall, defendants, and alleges:

1. This is an action brought under section 102,168, Florida Statutes (2004), to contest the certification that Ann McFall received more votes in the November 2 General Election in Volusia County, Florida, than did Patricia Northey.

2. Plaintiff is an elector resident and qualified to vote in Volusia County, Florida, residing at (redacted address).

3. Defendant Volusia County Canvassing Board consists of Joie Alexander, Member of the Volusia County Council, the Honorable Steven deLarouche, County Judge, and Deanie Lowe, Supervisor of Elections.

4. Defendant Ann McFall, (redacted address), is the candidate certified by the defendant Canvassing Board to have won the November 2, 2004 election for Supervisor of Elections.

5. Plaintiff has been informed that the Volusia County Canvassing Board certified the election results on November 12, 2004. Plaintiff is aware that the statutory deadline for filing this complaint is ten days following the date of that certification. Plaintiff alleges, however, that this complaint should be deemed timely filed for two reasons:

a. The Supervisor of Elections has unreasonably delayed providing information on which this complaint must be based, and still has not provided all of that information. The Canvassing Board is therefore estopped from asserting an untimely filing of this complaint.

b. The certification was based on inadequate and incomplete information regarding the election results, as will more particularly appear, and is, therefore, an invalid certification of those results.

6. A copy of the public records request emailed and faxed to the Supervisor of Elections on November 2, 2004, is attached. Some or all of the information requested is still missing from 59 of the 179 voting precincts, including portions of or all of the voting machine tapes for those 59 precincts, which are a vital part of official paper record of the election results from those precincts.

7. Complete information on problems with the voting machines prior to and during the election has not been provided.

8. Complete information relating to memory card failures during the election has not yet been provided.

9. Only a partial list of the transmission logs from the Accu-Vote optical scan server has been provided. Despite repeated requests, the Elections office has refused to provide to the Volusia County Democratic party the official election results, now stating that those results will not be available until December 1, 2004.

10. The Elections office has provided incomplete data regarding Early Voting and Absentee ballots. The Supervisor of Elections, for example, reported that the total number of absentee ballots and Early voting ballots, combined equaled 89,999 votes, yet the published figures for those totals is 84,100 votes, leaving over 5,800 votes unaccounted for.

11. Section 102, 168(3)(a) Florida Statutes (2004) provides that an election may be set aside for "misconduct, fraud, or corruption on the part of any election official or any member of the canvassing board sufficient to change or place in doubt the result of the election."

12. In Beckstrom v. Volusia County Canvassing Board, et al, 707 S. 2d 720 (Fla. 1998) the Florida Supreme Court said: "... if a court finds substantial noncompliance with statutory election procedures and also makes a factual determination that reasonable doubt exists as to whether a certified election expressed the will of the voters, then the court in an election contest brought pursuant to section 102.168, Florida Statutes (1997), is to void the contested election even in the absence of fraud or intentional wrongdoing."

13. In addition to the pattern of delay in providing the requested information, the true election results are in doubt because of numerous violations of election law procedure and unanswered questions concerning the results.

14. The polls were opened early and closed late during Early Voting.

15. Many public records, including one signed results tape from a voting machine were found in the trash. Many of the requested records not furnished by the Elections office have been found in the trash. Results from the tapes found in the trash do not match the results of the copies of tapes furnished.

16. An email from Mark Earley, of Diebold Elections Systems, Inc., to the Elections office was provided which asked the recipient for an explanation of why Volusia County had more memory card failures than all of their other Florida customers combined, and then asked why the 17 memory card failures which the Elections office reported on November 3, increased to 25 before November 12, 2004.

17. The reported memory card failures were significant and troubling and included reporting zero votes after one week of voting, requesting permission to upload votes before the voting began, and messaging whether the card should be reformatted.

18. According to a statement by the Supervisor of Elections on November 17, 2004, the GEMS computer is not networked, and is "stand alone." The furnished computer logs show evidence of at least two attempts to remotely access the GEMS central tabulator, which is claimed to be secure. A computer screen shot printout on November 17, 2004 (found in the trash) shows that the GEMS computer at that time had two networked hard drives.

19. Plaintiff is reasonably concerned that access to the memory cards and voting machine tapes is presently not restricted, and that the opportunity for tampering with that critical evidence exists. Plaintiff accordingly requests that This Honorable Court immediately order the Supervisor of Elections to seal and sequester all memory cards and voting machine tapes pertaining to or used during the November 2, 2004 general election in Volusia County, during the pendency of this Cause.

WHEREFORE, Plaintiff respectfully requests that this court order the immediate sealing of all memory cards and voting machine tapes pertaining to or used during the November 2, 2004 general election, and after hearing the evidence in this cause, set aside that general election of November 2, 2004.

SUSAN ROSE PYNCHON

DANIEL R. VAUGHEN, P.A.
Attorney for Plaintiff
Fla. Bar No. 083486
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jdog Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #98
99. I just printed a 5-page post by Bev
from this web site:

http://www.kathymcmahon.utvinternet.com/mrn/articles/Wh...

I thinks bits and pieces have come out but not the whole thing. Am I crazy? No one is talking about the overall picture she paints.?!

:wtf:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
YBR31 Donating Member (83 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #99
107. Flood the Dems with emails demanding that they get involved!
Flood the Dems with emails demanding that they get involved! I just sent an email to the DNC letting them know how upset I am that they are not pursuing an investigation of Florida election shenanigans. I sent the article by Bev referenced above. Maybe some other can do the same. We should keep the pressure on.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-25-04 10:33 PM
Response to Original message
101. Kerry's Attorney In Volusia Cnty.
{snip from Bev Harris}The Kerry attorney in Volusia, by the way, came by but asked not a single question, never asked to look at any evidence, and told one of the producers of Votergate that he thought Black Box Voting was just here to "stir up trouble."

For full sad article> http://www.kathymcmahon.utvinternet.com/mrn/articles/Wh...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
liberalcenter Donating Member (44 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-26-04 01:29 AM
Response to Original message
104. Thom Hartman
will have Bev on during the second hour of his Friday show.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 03rd 2020, 10:48 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC