Do you truly believe Republicans would leave proof behind of vote fraud?

[malatesta1137]

They prepared this for months, there's no way anyone will ever convincingly prove what the whole world obviously knows: this was another stolen election. And even if the results are somehow disputed, Republicans are also prepared to take it to the mobsters on the Supreme Court and we all know what will happen then.

We knew it was stolen in 2000 when we had both the PRESIDENT!! of the USA and the VICE-PRESIDENT!!! of the USA on our side and they were unable to do ANYTHING to stop the theft, do you think Democrats will be able to do anything, now that they have absolutely no power?

Any Ohio recount will only further validate Bush's 'win', Kerry knew that and that's why he conceded so fast. DUers, denial is not a river in Egypt, game over.

[The Zanti Regent]

1. Don't forget that the Whore Press is in the pocket of the Nazi Party

Hitler never had it as good as Bush does!

I am waiting for Candy Crowley to go on CNN with the "Bush Walks on Water" story...

[teach1st]

2. So, give up?

If you believe - and you imply that you do - that the election was stolen, are you saying just accept it and move on? They win? They're just too powerful?

The odds are long, that's for sure. So what? If the election was stolen, it's safe to say that democracy is in danger. Americans have fought longer and harder against much steeper odds to protect democracy. Nixon left a crumb. Maybe this administration did, too.

We fight. If we lose, at least we fought.

[pnutchuck]

9. I don't think we should "take it"

but we need stronger leadership in the DNC. As it is, our leadership is touting it's moderate-isms, and not putting up much of a fight when confronted with this admin. We should be pressuring OUR leadership for change because putting pressure on the Republicans is like trying to chisel Mt Rushmore using butter knives.

[teach1st]

10. Our leadership?

It's hard to tell what the Democratic leadership is doing. I'm not sure I care. I have more faith in the people. Grass roots, baby!

[pnutchuck]

3. Isn't that the basic premise of a conspiracy?

It can never be proven... Although, I believe this administration is arrogant, and their faults ARE obvious, but they have successfully blinded the majority of Americans with fear and prejudice. Even if the Dems successfully prove voter fraud, this admin will just put it in the Repub washing machine, set it to spin and the Dems will be forced to bend over and take it once again.

[Florida_Geek]

4. I think you are wrong

There are too many optical scanned votes out there and many in Democratic controlled counties. A manual recount of them IMHO will show vote fraud.

Where Bev and I part company, is I believe the fraud took place in the TS/OptScan machines and she in the central Gem system. IMHO you can read the flash memory from the TS until you are blue in the face and the numbers will be the same. This is not the case with Opt. Scanned ballots. They can be manually recounted and compared against the machine total. IMHO this is where the fraud evidence will be

[eowyn_of_rohan]

24. Optical Scan machines might be their Achilles heel...

I have this feeling that the hackers failed to recognize the difference between votes coming in from Opti-scans and touch-screen machines, and did their dirty work across the board.

This "Dixiecrat" area of Florida is a goldmine, I think, if only SOMEONE(s) would disregard the dixiecrat propaganda and demand recounts in a few of those counties

[Florida_Geek]

30. Not even counties,,, precincts

all it would take is a couple large Democratic leaning precincts to be hand counted. The fraud should show up there. Once that happens is a snowball rolling down hill. Keep counting as long as there are differences.

[bunny planet]

31. The Dixiecrat theory is a smokescreen

For F**k sake, Strom Thurmond was a Dixiecrat and he was 900 years old. They are an aging portion of the population and those democratic registration numbers in the counties in question don't reflect that high a dixiecrat percentage to explain away the discrepancies that way.

[genieroze]

39. What are you talking about?

She is looking into them.

"Bev in Volusia County right now"

The word is she was in a 2hr meeting with the Supervisor of Elections this morning along with members of a new group, the Florida Fair Elections Coalition.

After the meeting, our founder came back to the office with bags of trash from the SOE because they found tapes from the op-scan machines thrown away that do not match the posted election results. Take a wild guess at who's favor the *extra* votes were in?

They went back to another meeting to show what was found. I'll post more when I know more. If you haven't already, donate if you can. Bev is fantastic!
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/dcforum/DCForumID4122/36.html

[Florida_Geek]

43. Don't get me wrong but Bev and I have different opinions

where the changes are made. She in the Gem software system, me before it hits the flash memory cards in the TS/OptS systems.

What she is finding in Volusia does not point the finger at who did the changing JUST THAT THEY WERE CHANGED

There is nothing wrong with what she is doing.

[notadmblnd]

81. I think they used every method available to them to steal the election.

Where they thought they could get away with disenfranchisement, they used it.

Where they thought they could get rid of absentee ballots, they tossed them out.

Where they thought they could get away with purging voter rolls, they purged them.

Where they thought they could get away with disqualifing provisional ballots, they tossed them and so on down the list... intimidation hanging chads.. optiscan and touchscreen machines.

One thing that stood out different to me this election than others in the past.. was that the poll workers seemed unusually unhelpful that day. I noticed it at the precinct I voted in and the 6 others I visited that day (I volunteered to drive voters to the polls).

I think it's very possible that both of you are correct.

[malatesta1137]

50. you don't think

Republicans are prepared for that too? These people fooled the world in order to invade a country for hegemony and oil, rigging the recount of optical scanned votes for them will be a walk in the park.

[The Flaming Red Head]

5. Bev is finding it

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2704906

[KittyWampus]

27. Changes In Vote Tallies WILL Leave Evidence That Can Be Recovered

apparently, whatever info has ever been entered into a computer can be recovered by experts.

Also, with access to code... experts can find nefarious commands.

[CantGetFooledAgain]

57. Help me to understand

...what the chances are of proving anything.

The paper trail, where it exists, would seem to be our only opportunity to prove fraud, and then only when a manual recount is shown to disagree with the tabulated results.

Knowing that, wouldn't any conspirator worth his salt destroy or alter the paper trail in order to eliminate the incriminating evidence?

Without revealing too many details, can someone tell me:

1. Is the hard evidence (ballots, punch cards, paper tapes, hard disks, report printouts, etc) being secured adequately?

2. Are there reliable methods of proving whether any of this evidence has been altered, destroyed, or counterfeited in any way?

Is the Volusia County evidence sufficient to get the FBI interested? Is there an actual indication of fraud there?

[lthuedk]

84. Correct. The files can't be entirely erased from the harddrive.

Law enforcement knows this, and the FBI is particularly good at extracting data from "f-disc'ed" drives.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

6. Ever been in jail?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2704906

Read this report and tie this in with what someone who WAS in jail once told me:

"When I was in jail, I was amazed that I was surrounded by the stupidest people I had ever seen. Then, it dawned on me that I was in jail too"

Think about it. Think about how naked ambition and greed do not make people smarter. Think about how Watergate was a stupid op.

You can plan all you want. You cannot plan for stupidity, and the older I get and the more that I see, the more I am convinced that stupidity is the natural state of man.

[malatesta1137]

51. lol

is Bush in jail for stealing 2000? was Nixon ever in jail for Watergate? don't make me laugh.

[EST]

7. Huh?

They did-read |Bev Harris thread.

[malatesta1137]

52. and?

do you think anything will come out of it?

[EST]

74. Yes, I do.

There has to be a huge, multi-pronged, discovery and prosecution on this one, since Gore dropped it so precipitously in 2000 and the monsters are so firmly entrenched now. Proof of fraud has to be done in only one area to force a recount or a rerun of the entire election, at least on a state-by-state basis.
The chances of reversing the results of this theft are marginal, however the ogre of saving the democracy is the biggest issue at this point. With Europe becoming a superpower, China (which could be considered a marginal superpower as re: weapons, but in terms of available troop deployments and credit extended to the US) and Russia, which, though weak, is still nothing to sneer at, the possibility of the entire world turning on us and handing to us what we handed to Hitler is very sickeningly real. This possibility must be addressed and thwarted, is possible.

[juliewolf]

8. Blind Arrogance

The thing is, we -are- finding proof of it. The question is not whether or not we can find the proof. The question is whether or not anyone is willing to listen to it.

These people are -incredibly- arrogant. This serves them in the short run, but in the long run, it will take them down.

[nashville_brook]

35. amen juliewolf!

arrogance is by nature brash. they have already made quite a few remarkable mistakes. the statistics alone point to tampering -- look at how the conservatives in Miami are getting ink over the gambling vote. they are getting heard just on the premise of stats.

our battle is with the press. the missteps are out there as with the Volusia bruhaha. we just need to get the press to report it.

[bowens43]

11. Yes, I believe that they would.

What amazes me is that so many who call themselves Democrats are willing to just say 'game over' and run away like a scalded dog with it's tail between it's legs.

[shib]

12. ...

There is no such thing as a perfect crime.

[JoMama49]

72. Even Mike Malloy says to keep looking!

Have you listened to the Mike Malloy show lately. He is the most pessimistic talk show guy when it comes to the "flying monkey right" as he calls the Neocons. But even he says, sure, keep up the pressure, look for proof and he commends BBV and their work. I agree with him. You never know when a loose end will show up, or a whistle blower will suddenly develop a conscience!
JoMama.

[DoYouEverWonder]

14. Just because some people are being quiet right now

doesn't mean they aren't doing anything.

Obviously you didn't see Kerry's interview yesterday? The game is not over yet. Kerry said he was only 50,000 votes away and that since the COUNTING wasn't over yet, it was premature to go beyond that right now.

The evidence for fraud is going to be so overwhelming that there will be no doubt in anyone's mind that Bush is the biggest cheater in history and no one likes a cheater.

[Kookaburra]

19. Here's my tin foil hat theory

Maybe I'm thinking way too much about this, but here goes. There are plenty of (now) ex-CIA folks who have a score to settle with the monkey boy. Is it possible that they, while still in their jobs, gave the appearance of being in cahoots with the thugs but were in realty sabotaging their fraudulent efforts and making them more blatant? Just a suggestion...

[bearfan454]

82. Could be n/t

[nashville_brook]

36. all my friends have given up and

are asking me if i'm having trouble coming to accept it. i'm telling them "it ain't over. read my blog. i'm posting the best of the best. read it! make some noise."

people are so disheartened. these are people i had to drag to get registered. they totally didn't believe in the vote in the first place. i'm worried for the future. if this does't get exposed 2008 will be affectively be boycotted.

[malatesta1137]

53. you live in a fantasy world

fighting a losing battle like this one will only make Republicans stronger. Kerry knew that and that's why he conceded, he has brains, did you also say that he ran away like a scalded dog with it's tail between it's legs?

[John Q. Citizen]

69. Then why are you posting here?

can't YOU see you are fighting a losing battle, malatesta1137

Evil prevails when good people do nothing.

Are you just trying to save us from ourselves?

[malatesta1137]

92. Evil prevails when good people waste

their time and energy in losing battles. In order to win elections again, Democrats can't keep crying for recounts each time anymore, we need to be as dirty as Republicans, that's the only way to win.

Once we're in government, then we should be 100% honest. But to get there, we need to out-crook them, unfortunately.

[John Q. Citizen]

96. Your logic escapes me...N/T

[Oak2004]

99. A big clue

If you try to out-crook the people who own the police and courts, you end up discredited and in jail.

The only reason that the Republicans have been able to get away (so far) is that people in power have been abetting them and covering up for them. We don't have that. And even if we did, I would not want to use it.

I come from a somewhat authoritative position here. I'm a Republican in exile who learned my campaign techniques from Lee Atwater (the College Republicans have been a real ethical cesspool for a very long time). And I've seen that those techniques inevitably corrupt the party.

[merh]

80. Please feel free to ignore all posts about the fraud or theft or

irregularties. You may have heard the fat lady sing, but others haven't.

Enjoy your world of pessism and gloom and doom. Give up. You have my permission.

[malatesta1137]

88. I should be free to speak about this recount

and give my opinion jut like anyone else here.

[merh]

98. Well of course, but if it bothers you so that others are discussing

the issues, then just ignore them.

[malatesta1137]

101. I don't get bothered by the discussion

but by the gullibility.

[merh]

105. Don't take their gullibility personally, just ignore the

threads. :shrug:

[RageKage]

13. You give them too much credit.

While machiavellian scheeming may explain much of the disaster this Administration seemed to be in the last four years, some things can only be attributable to sheer incompotence.

And it seems the larger and more ambitious their goal, the worse they pull it off.

And most importantly, they did not count on the (extremely) fast growing strength of the blogosphere.

[malatesta1137]

54. too much credit?

I don't think so, they stole 2 elections and got away with it didn't they? they invaded a country for oil and hegemony and got away with it didn't they? you are innocently underestimating them.

[txindy]

87. While that may be true, there's more to it

Yes, they invaded Iraq for their own reasons, but they have shown massive incompetence while doing it. It never gets better, either, it just gets worse.

If they did steal this election, they've shown just as much incompetence. There are irregularities in numerous states, indicating that there may be widespread vote tampering. If they were truly competent, there wouldn't be any indications of this anywhere, but they over-reached, IMO. Their ambition wouldn't accept a mere win, they had to have a 'mandate'. :eyes: To accomplish that, though, they spread the responsibility for vote tampering throughout the states. The ideas were certainly there, but the follow-through seems to have been lacking and that may come back to bite them in a big way.

This is all still playing out. It's far from over.

[KansDem]

106. I tend to agree with you...

The only thing--the ONLY thing--that separates these thugs and hard-prison time is the media. As long as the media will cover for them, they will be relatively safe to pursue their agenda albeit with utter incompetence.

[KarenS]

15. "I will not go quietly" !!!

I will not give them 'implied consent' with my silence ~

I may be labeled as a Kook or conspiracy theorist ~ whatever!!!

They need to be called on their Lying, Cheating & Stealing !!!


:argh:

and Yes, I think these folks are arrogant enough to think that they can partially cover their tracks & get away with it!!!

[dewaldd]

16. There is always an Achilles heel

We just have to find it. It is there.

The big question is rather: will the press report it?

[Roger_Otip]

26. hackers suffer from pride

perhaps that's their achilles heel - like when they find crackz for software they always post them on the internet. they want recognition. there must be people out there who would love to come forward and talk about how clever they've been hacking into these machines. perhaps the way to get them to come forward is to massage their egos, talk about how we would love to meet the geniuses responsible for rigging the election.

[meg]

17. Yes, they would

Rove and his type are blatant and arrogant. I think that they would like their victims to know they did it to them. In any case, their mode of operation is to blatantly do something then not let the press cover the story while controlling the government agencies that might do the investigation.

They are bullies, not competent workers.

[bunny planet]

34. I agree

Where has there been any evidence of their competence thus far? Was it in allowing soldiers to videotape and take snapshots of the atrocities at Abu Gharhaib? Perhaps it was competence when they didn't give orders to guard 380 TONS of explosives after they put our brave soldiers into Iraq with too few troops to guard said weapons. Or was it their strong and preventative action upon receiving the August 6,'01 PDB that said 'Bin Laden Determined to Attack Within the US'. Yes, they've been so competent and good at covering their tracks when they've made a mistake up until this point. We have no chance that they've become sloppy in this instance when attempting to steal a National Election.

I actually think that their arrogance may have swelled brain cells permanently and they perhaps couldn't even conceive of the idea that His Fraudulency might not win again. Yes, they had a dastardly plan just in case,but they didn't actually think they'd have to use it. When it became clear that they did, say after viewing exit polls that indicated Kerry ahead, then they went with plan B, and did a sloppy job, with a lot of loose threads left hanging. Perhaps Bushman has 'plausible deniability', can they trust him with much more?

They are always more competent in controlling propaganda from their deeds than in pulling off the lowly acts themselves, and their propaganda in pretty much slimey gossip and innuendo, (i.e. Swift Boat Liars ) Rove is really most like the head mean girl in well...the movie 'Mean Girls' only on a globally punishing scale.

Well whether or not they like it, we have our own little world of media control here too, and like that annoying buzzing fly in the room that just can't be swatted for some reason, we won't go away.

They think we are all tin foil hat conspiracy theorists, with no credibility. I for one, am a mother of three, one of those mythical 'security moms' who supposedly thought Georgie Boy was their 'knight in shining armor' going to ride in on his white horse and save me from the terrorists.....NOT. I have never felt my family to be more in danger than I do under this administration, and now for four more years of it. NO F****cking way!!

It's the incompetence stupid!!!!!!

[malatesta1137]

55. incompetence, definitely

but they always get away with it. We need to go back to the drawing board.

[OneBlueSky]

18. well, you're probably right . . . but here's what's been bothering me . .

let's start with the premise that the Democratic "leadership," from Kerry right on down through both Houses of Congress, are not dummies . . . just based on what's been uncovered thusfar, they have to know that there was massive fraud, including a huge effort to suppress votes in minority communities . . . further, they have known since who-knows-when about BBV, who owns the companies that count the votes, and how the Republicans work (based on 2000 and 2002) . . .

so . . . assuming that these are intelligent, informed individuals who were well aware of the POTENTIAL for election rigging and are now aware of the ACTUAL attempts at election rigging, what's bothering me is why the hell they aren't doing anything about it . . . or even SAYING anything about it! . . . I mean, even if they've calculated that they can't win this year, shouldn't they be putting every ounce of effort they can muster into making the American public aware of what's happened to this country's voting process? . . . isn't it their duty, both as elected officials and as citizens, to do everything in their power to put a stop to this, if not for this year then for future elections? . . .

and yet we hear NOTHING! . . . not from Kerry, not from Edwards, not from the Senate or House leadership, not from the party's elder statesmen, not from anyone . . . to me, this is beyond puzzling; it is absolutely infuriating! . . . do they not care that our entire electoral system is in mortal danger? . . . or is Ralph Nader more than correct when he says it's really all one single party, and the Democrats are just going along for the sake of maintaining that particular status quo? . . .

I've tried to look at this from every possible angle, and I honestly just don't understand it at all . . . I wish someone would smack these people upside the head and yell "Wake the fuck UP!" . . . because if they don't, I don't think we'll ever see another Democrat elected to national office in our lifetimes . . .

[eowyn_of_rohan]

28. How do we KNOW they arent saying anything? Consider the Kerry interview...

Why hasn't the mainstream media sought Kerry out for interviews? Why did he only appear on a local, Boston TV channel, and why was his interview taped rather than live? He supposedly mentioned OHIO several times in the interview, but by the time it was edited for TV, I do not believe I heard him say it once. The propaganda at the end, by the interviewer, was that Kerry knew that no matter what happened in Ohio, he would not get enough votes to overturn the election. Did Kerry say that? He seemed rather indignant and feisty to me, and didn't sound as if he was giving up.

Where is Teddy Kennedy? He HATES Bush. He was very optimistic that Kerry would win (said so on election day) ... But what if he did want to say something about this election being stolen? The media would make him sound like a nutcase.

I think the problem is the media, and this is really, REALLY scary...

[JoMama49]

73. It bothers me too, but ....

I have the same misgivings. The only thing that makes sense is that Kerry/Edwards are waiting this out for now. Think what would be happening with the Rightees if Kerry had come out swinging. First, the Falujah battle was timed to conflict with any Kerry offensive, and the media would be hammering the Kerry campaign for singing sour grapes when our troops are bravely putting themselves in harms way, blah, blah, blah. Kerry most likely knew that. I believe they could be waiting for a recount to show a big discrepancy or some proof of voter fraud to surface. You know that all he'd need to do is call a press conference and unconcede. The media whores will be all over that, it will be the headlines and cause the whole country to focus on the stolen election. I'm hoping against hope that this is what is happening!
JoMama.

[RealityCheck04]

20. No one will ever know...

Using logic, there are two possibilities here.

1) The election was not stolen
2) The election was stolen

If #1 is true, then the recount is meaningless. Bush won and the recount won't change more than a couple hundred votes due to chads and tabulation errors.

If #2 is true, then the recount is still meaningless because fraud committed at the highest levels does not go uncovered by some sleepy precinct workers recounting a few ballots. It would take years of investigation by the FBI to find that out.

But wait, you say, Woodward and Bernstein broke Watergate! Yeah, after THREE YEARS. Sure, Nixon resigned, but he got almost a full second term and the rest of his term was served by his Republican Vice President.

Bottom line: no matter what happens, we're gonna have a Republican president for at least four more years.

[rfrrfrrfr]

47. Your are making way to many false assumptions if the election was stolen.

False assumption #1 The "Fraud" is conspiracy based with the GOP/ROVE in charge of it. We have no evidence whatsoever that this is the case at this time. It could simply be a very dumb overlooked computer bug or poorly calibrated machines, or clerical error, or any number or combination of really stupid errors that were not planned at all.


False assumption #2 even if There is a conspiracty to commint fraud again there is no evidence at this time that it was the GOP/Rove who did it. It could be a small independant group who did it for who knows what reason and if they left a trail they were just plain stupid.

False assumption #3 If there was a conspiracy and it was put together by the GOP/Rove does not mean they are infallible. See a little event in history called Watergate. And remember there was no internet, there was not a 24 hour news cycle back when Watergate came out. And Water gate is most likely much more complex than what we are dealing with in this election.


We know the GOP engaged in widespread voter supression, but that won't affect the current outcome of the election.

With the recounts in Ohio, Ne Hampshire and possibly Florida we will know in the next few weeks the extent of any fraud or error that there is and whether it will affect the outcome of the election.


Right now based on what we do know it is much too soon to say if the relection will be reversed or it won't be.

Too many people are acting like freepers and running around like chickens with their heads cut off and not waiting to make sound judgements on the evidence we are in the process of collecting.

It is possible you are correct, but it is only possible there really is no logical case based on current information for your position.

[neohippie]

21. I believe that there are elections officials all over the country who

are probably not qualified to fulfill the duties of their positions.

What if the fraud wasn't conducted by a national group, but by individuals who were overzealous, biased or just incompetent.

[RealityCheck04]

22. Still, 135,000 votes is...

Too much to overturn based on local incompetence or foul play.

Look at FL in 2000. The entire DNC couldn't even turn around a 500 vote margin, despite the felon-purge lists and all that crap. This time, Bush's margin is 270 times that much.

[Mister K]

23. This is only because they ran out of time...

I think we are better prepared this time and BBV is not taking any crap!

[eowyn_of_rohan]

25. and some who made more mistakes than others

We have to look for the ones who made STUPID mistakes, such as the ones in Volusia county, Fla, who left evidence all over the place, but could do nothing but "glare" when it was discovered.

[nashville_brook]

37. and Warren county, Ohio n/t

[truehawk]

29. Yes there will be proof

The high leverage place to steal an election is at the tabulators.
70% of Ohio is on punchcards and part of the rest is on Optiscan, so there ARE ballots to be counted.

[Florida_Geek]

32. I say the fraud is in the TS/OptScan software not in the tabulators

BUT Ohio works to our advancage. NO MATTER where the fraud has taken place, a manual count of the paper ballot will point to the fraud.

Not so with TS. If I am right, and the fraud was commited before the votes were written to flash memory, you could read the flash until you are blue in the face and get the same results. OTOH, if Bev is right rereading the flash memory will show the fraud.

I love paper-- no questions

[malatesta1137]

56. there might be proof

but convincing enough to tilt the results? No. Even if it does, they have the Supreme Court on their side.

[htuttle]

33. Since when did they become competent?

Seriously. Other than getting elected, what have they done that turned out the way they wanted it to?

Seems like it's been four years of catastrophically 'successful' plans to me, with the emphasis on 'catastrophic'.

[malatesta1137]

58. are you serious?

they successfully stole two elections, successfully got away with failing to prevent 9/11, successfully invaded two countries (as far as permanent military bases are concerned), successfully gained even more power in congress, EVERYTHING turned out the way they wanted to.

[bunny planet]

76. The key to Repugs getting away with everything thus far is

their control of the MEDIA. They have a propaganda machine in place that does not tell the truth and aids and abets them in covering up every story that would ordinarily have brought them down. This election fraud story is no different. Proof of fraud will not be enough unless the media is willing to cover it, period. They (media) have to be financially hit in the solar plexus, brought to their knees, and fast. The only way to do this is by boycotting their programming and advertisers and writing tons of letters letting them know what the will of the people really is, to hear the truth, nothing less. They don't understand anything else but dollar signs. There is a thread over at Kos that condenses information on taking back the media and how best to economically punish them for their part in misleading and disceiving the American people. Without their noise machine the right wing can't brainwash 1/2 the people in this country as they've been able to do for so long. We should have started doing this is 2000, but better late than never.

[Pooka Fey]

90. Can you post a link to that thread?

[dewaldd]

38. FINGERPRINTS, dude, we must check the ballots for fingerprints

Any ballot must be signed by democrat and republican poll workers. If their fingerprints aren't there, the ballots are fraudulent--manufactured and planted. Don't think ES&S and Diebold wouldn't go to such lenghts to cover their asses.

Bev Harris found those unused ballots in the trash in Volusia County, FL, along with the discarded authentic poll tapes. They could be legitimate extras from the real election, but considering what they were found with, they are evidence of fraud.

We need to fingerprint the poll workers, and verify that their fingerprints are on the ballots.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MarkusQ]

41. Nixon's tapes

"Do you truly believe Republicans would leave proof behind of vote fraud?"

I never thought Nixon would tape record all his plotting and scheming and then keep the tapes around to be found later.

Since then (and especially when dealing with some of the same bad apples, as we are here) I've decided it's always worthwhile to look.

-- MarkusQ

[slackmaster]

42. Do you truly believe Republicans are smart enough to cover their tracks?

How many people would be needed to pull off a nationwide plot to alter vote counts enough to swing the election their way?

How could that many people all remain loyal and keep quiet about it?

I don't know the answers to these questions and don't mean to imply necessarily that there was no broad conspiracy, but if you want to think critically about the situation I believe you have to address my questions as well as the one presented.

[malatesta1137]

59. not too many people

just the ones dealing with the central computers in Ohio and Florida, maybe 5 people in each state, including the Governors and Secretaries of State.

[slackmaster]

62. Then that is where any investigation must be directed IMO

Those individuals, plus the people who developed and installed the software. Surely one or two has chinks in his or her armor. If there was collusion on that level, they won't all be able to consistently tell the same story under close scrutiny.

I say put them all under oath and let Congress investigate. If there was an organized campaign to overturn the election they'll have to lie to cover it up, and cannot possibly all keep their story straight.

[malatesta1137]

66. by this time this investigation is over

Jenna Bush will be running for President in 2032. Be realistic.

[slackmaster]

70. Naw, I don't buy that for a minute

Three people can keep a secret only if two of them are dead.

But if taking as an article of faith that the election was rigged helps you wake up in the morning and live a happy life, more power to you.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[milkyway]

46. Reread the DU rules. You just showed up here last week, and you're

already name-calling because you don't agree with someone's opinion? I don't agree with him/her either, but they make a reasonable argument.

[bj2110]

45. And I suppose the civil rights movement should have just given up?

And women's suffrage, and Woodward & Bernstein, etc...

[malatesta1137]

61. never give up

but know the time when you should waste your energy in greater battles.

[bj2110]

77. What greater battle is there then verifying an election is counted right?

Especially with all of the circumstantial reports out there that something is amiss.

What is more at the heart of what this country is founded on?

[RuleofLaw]

48. Yes I do

I most states its a felony to destroy official records, which documents associated with an election would be.

I think many people will think twice before they deliberately destroys any documents. They might try to "misplace" them, but I am not sure anyone would take the chance of actual shredding them.

Remember Arthur Anderson. It was much easier for the State to prove the destruction of the documents than the actual corporate fraud.

[malatesta1137]

63. they WILL destroy and misplace documents

they have the White House and the Supreme Court behind them. They are capable of much worse, please, as the Iraq War has shown the world.

[Kralizec]

49. It takes a lot fo work to cover all those tracks, malatesta,

and while the republicans can be counted on to do a thorough job, I don't think Jeb wanted to cheat unless necessary. When Kerry conceded, he (jeb) put his guard down. That or those poll workers are really incompetent, and now in big trouble. Haha.

[seaclyr]

60. Fraud at multiple levels?

I think we have to suppose fraud at several levels, cruder "small" amounts (although of course they add up) which more people knew about together with more sophisticated, potentially massive amounts that just a handful of people were in on. It may be a lot easier to catch the small stuff, but of course people may then argue it wasn't sufficient to sway the election. The more sophisticated stuff? Well, I think we have to persevere and hope for some luck along the way. Also, I doubt that all the tracks are covered; I can think of at least two reasons. One, these guys have a tendency to be greedy (has anyone noticed?) and may well have taken more votes than they needed. The other thing is that, in my experience, people who are thorough and pay lots of attention to detail can at the same time be suprisingly oblivious in some areas. So, let's keep going and stay hopeful!

[dkofos]

64. Yes

Fraud on this scale should be hard to cover up.
If BBV can show fraud in just one county, precint, whatever
that will open the floodgates.
If there is a recount they should get the tabulators recertified before the recount.

[New Earth]

65. hahhahaha

funny shit

[wiggs]

67. Your first two paragraphs have some good points

You are correct, they are smart enough to make it difficult to detect tampering. They have rabidly loyal people helping hide evidence. Based on previous performances, whoever did this knows how to make it look legitimate to the naked eye.

And, you are correct, the democrats (officials) aren't doing anything. They have no power, they have no spine, and we shouldn't count on them as an official group to be the opposition party when they haven't done it for the last 4 years.

However....

It will take diligence, thought, cleverness, sacrifice, determination, connections, money, a collective internet effort, and people like those at BBV.org. Fortunately, we have all that and more. Did they anticipate that some hack in Volusia would dump evidence into a dumpster and that a BBV'r would think to check it out? Or that some local yahoo in Warren County would draw attention to himself by declaring a red alert just for the election department? Could they have anticipated that the Greens would demand a recount in NH? Could they have guessed that one lady would respond to a $35,000 donation request at the last moment to help a recount effort? Would they really have understood that tens of thousands of internet activists would doggedly keep thin threads of vote manipulation hypothesis alive long enough to catch fire? Or that any vote irregularity is made public within hours due to bloggers and sites like DU?

Yes, they have made it very hard, and they may succeed in the end holding onto power because they do have the media and three branches of government. But there are a lot of angry, determined people out there -- the majority of the country, if we are correct -- that want to understand what happened. We are going to get to the bottom of it, with or without the democrats and whether or not the criminals that manipulated the vote want us to or not.

[seaclyr]

68. I believe it can be proved, but....

Unfortunately, proof by itself may not be sufficient to make a difference. There are many people out there who will not be convinced by facts (psychological studies show only very small shifts, typically just a few percent, in people's beliefs when provided with factual information and this WILL come down to whether people BELIEVE the election was stolen). So, proof comes first. Convincing some people to change their minds comes second. Getting them to do something comes third. Even though this - sadly - is the reality I'm still cautiously optimistic.

[milkyway]

71. Remember two things: they are incompetent, and they are vicious.

They screw up everything they do. So the truth is out there.

But they are able to maintain and expand their power because they feel no ethical, legal, or moral restraints in using that power however necessary.

[suston96]

75. Forget recounts.

Big rewards for whistleblowers is what is needed. Money talks and you know what walks.

The thieves have covered their tracks and what we need is some good insider information.

It took a lot of hacking to get to those servers that did the tabulations at the county and state levels.

Raise the reward levels. Raise them very high.

[bunny planet]

79. I think they got too ambitious.

Remember Bush not only wanted to win electorally. He wanted his mandate. So the ambitiousness comes in because they then had to pad the popular vote too.

I lurked over at Freeperville last night (with barf bag in hand). They are either LOL at our stupid unwillingness to accept that their guy won, or, upon hearing that there really will be a recount in Ohio, are screaming about asking for a recount in Wisconsin, and Michigan, Pennsylvania, places they apparently feel Kerry did not really win, and will lose if there is a recount.

It doesn't occur to them (freepers), of course, that the closeness of those races were also probably fraudulent on the part of the Republicans , and if they weren't tampered with too( to achieve the desirable popular vote), the Rovemeister would be screaming for a recount there right now to counter the possibility of Ohio flipping for Kerry. The Bushies can't risk having recounts in Blue states either, because the margin of Kerry's win will grow there as well, not diminish and fraud will be more obvious than ever.

No, I think there were shenanigi across the board, even in states that went blue, but were mysteriously more in play than they should have been. For crap sake, the Republicans were trying to say Jersey was in play. I'm from Jersey, no way in hell do we go anything but blue.

I'd like to find out the truth for a change, whomever it ultimately benefits.

I'm knew so I don't know what to press that has me responding to original message, this is not a response to the above post but that's the only reply button I saw. I do agree that a whistleblower or two or three would be a nice right about now.

[Pooka Fey]

93. Criminals USUALLY leave behind clues. The Repugs did.

[mcg]

78. Yes, they're idiots.

[Woo]

83. hmmm....

I don't know guys -- you really think it's that simple, a hand recount? I'm hoping everyone is right but I'm starting to feel less confident about finding something there. It's way too simple -- not to say the entire operation was simple, but adding numbers to the central tabulator with no way to account for the vote in case of a hand recount... just seems mighty risky of being discovered if you're doing this in a number of close states.

People... put your minds to it and try to think of other ways they could add a large amount of votes and leave no audit trail -- Think back to stories you heard before the election... such as USPS 'misplacing' a ton of absentee ballots in FL. Something just doesn't add up and a hand recount seems all too simple.

[Royalfred]

85. I believe

Even with all their preplanning they were still getting crushed on election day. I think they got desperate Tuesday evening, and they will be caught.

[postswithafist]

86. It's probably too low level to be found

Problem is that to manipulate the counts they were probably done by a few zealous republican supporters with access to the computers that do the counts. They will never come clean and the administration obviously dosn't know anything so they have "plausible deniability" over any of it. Even if we catch these guys they will only be little fish in the whole scheme.

[lessthanjake]

89. Do you realize how pathetic we sound here

We are basically saying "WE KNOW THERE WAS FRAUD BUT WE ALSO KNOW THERE WONT BE ANY CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT". That is a conspiracy theory to the utmost.

[EndElectoral]

91. To accept that premise would mean Watergate would never have been exposed

[malatesta1137]

94. you forget that we had congress back then

2000 was exposed and nothing happened, unless Gore is in the White House right now and no one told me.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

104. Not really.......

.......Watergate was a botched third rate robbery covered up by a paranoid president with people willing to talk about it going to the press.

The original poster's point was the Repugs have got this one seemingly handled better.

[mountebank]

95. Do corporate CEOs always get away with fraud?

Presumably corporate CEOs have enough money to hire the best fraudsters and plan years in advance and cover their tracks. Still, investigators find ways to uncover corporate fraud. Somehow, somewhere, you have to leave a trail. Even if it's in the computer code. Most corporations get away with fraud because no one suspects or looks hard enough. Not so in this case. And sure - most of those that are caught don't end up going to jail. But the fraud is exposed. And that's all I want.

I think there is a tendency to impute to one's enemy limitless levels of cunning. What you end up finding, is that the enemy does not perfectly execute their machinations.

If there was fraud in this election (I'm talking wide-scale electronic fraud, not just the voter suppression we know for a fact occurred) then there is a trail somewhere.

[malatesta1137]

100. there is definitely a trail but my point is:

NOTHING WILL BE DONE ABOUT IT AT ANY LEVEL.

[fasttense]

107. Think Like KKKarl

When we get evidence of voter fraud on the part of Repubs (it's there, there is no doubt) maybe even a leading Repub official will get caught. The Rove machine will go into action.

I know this sounds awful but I'm pretending to be KKKarl.

They will go to states that went to Kerry and look for the smallest of errors, mistakes or fraud on the part of a Democrat then claim everyone is doing it. They will blow it out of proportion and claim Democrats were cheating too.

They have Congress, the courts and the media in their hip pocket. Even if we show that their rigging was huge, more fraudulent and affected the outcome of the election, the Rove machine will go around saying the Democrats did it too. They will spin it to look like Repubs and Democrats were both cheating and it all evens out in the end.

The apathetic public will buy this easily constructed lie. It's easier to believe both sides did it then think we don't have a Democracy. Isn't that what they did after the Kennedy/Nixon elections?

What we got to do is figure out a way to fight this strategy. How can we keep them from claiming such a thing? Or if they do, how can we ensure the full truth is out? How can we counter such a lie?

You folks are a lot more politically savvy than me. What do you think?

[seaclyr]

112. Yep, we need to think like Karl, i.e. learn how to lie to protect ourselve

Brian Eno has a great piece on things of this nature - "Lessons in how to lie about Iraq." He apparently was taught to lie by "an eccentric uncle" in order to know how to protect himself. It's not good to be naive! http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1020303,00.html

[ewulf]

97. yes

[althecat]

102. yes.. these people have been foolish and moronic at every turn

the only thing that save's their asses is a corrupt political establishment and a cowed and moronic media.

[symbolman]

103. makes me wonder what's being left behind

in those conveniently placed garbage bags, like in Volusia county..

I'm pretty sure anything of value is shredded..

[McCamy Taylor]

108. Karl Rove thought he made this one Recount Proof...

...by engineering a wide margin win and imposing a media blackout. Republicans think democracy is a myth like the tooth fairy so it never occured to him that Private Citizens might start their own recounts and investigations.

[Truthbeknown]

110. Is this the smoking gun?

I just came across this. http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com/Campaign2006/harrrisletter.

[Truthbeknown]

111. Same Link,trying again,I couldn't connect when I tried it

http://www.jefffisherforcongress.com/Campaign2006/harrrisletter.htm

[ruthg]

109. Hey, who would have believed...

That Dick Nixon would have taped everything ( well except that little 18 minute gap..)????

Life is often way weirder that we think. Sometimes that is a good thing.

[progressoid]

113. Yes (and no)

1. We can't wait for the media to give is a "votergate" Those days are past - the media rarely investigate anything anymore. That's why we need to support people like Bev Harris, Greg Palast (he's not really part of the MSM), etc

B. This isn't a single crime but lots of separate ones. All we need is to uncover one juicy one for the MSM to pick up on it. Then they can google all of the blogs since the election to write their Peabody winning shows.

C. Karl Rove has his ass covered (and b*) but he can't possibly cover all his minions. Some of them will be caught

IV. Please, please, please oh Cosmic Muffin, let my prayer be heard. Catch them evil-doers in DC. I don't want to have to move to Canada. I'm getting new windows for my house.