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Kerry Lawyer says they weren't trained to LOOK FOR FRAUD! Breaking!

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:15 PM
Original message
Kerry Lawyer says they weren't trained to LOOK FOR FRAUD! Breaking!
(I couldn't get the best parts of this article in because of the paragraph limit...but it's a MUST READ! He knows somethings wrong and he says what we have to do! But, we need computer techs examining these machines...will Nader and Cobb be able to?}


http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AI...

Did lawyer-observers on Election Day miss fraud incidents?

By IAN H. SOLOMON
Special to The Hartford Courant

Could we have been so naive?

Thousands of the countrys most credentialed lawyers flocked to Florida to guarantee a fair election. Did we inadvertently miss an election debacle even greater than that of 2000 and negligently allow our client to concede?
(snip)
Could we take the accurate counting of computer votes for granted, since the CEO of the leading voting machine manufacturer promised to deliver the election for Bush?

At first, the question didnt matter, because I, like most others, thought Kerry would win. In fact, I was shocked when the official election results started coming in so different from historically reliable exit poll results and my own gut sense of the results in Florida.

(SNIP)

We had been so worried about voting law that we neglected voting technology. Most important, we had been so worried about voter suppression in poor and minority areas that we didnt pay attention to voter inflation in Republican areas.

We should have had trained observers - computer scientists, not lawyers! - verifying the integrity of polling data from machine upload through the tabulation of countywide and statewide results.

Somehow we neglected the most vulnerable step in the vote-counting process, leaving a gaping hole for error and fraud, casting in doubt the validity of election results in many states.
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ogradda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
1. this is what i've been saying all along
where are the programmers??
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AndyTiedye Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
62. Programmers Were Ready and Willing, But What Could We Do?
We know all to well what they can do in the central tabulators.
We don't have enough oversight there to stop them.

How do we know what software the are really running?
Someone who produces a hacked version to give votes to Boosh
isn't going to change the version number to make it obvious.

The certification process itself is a joke, but even that is frequently
bypassed. Who knows what those things are really programmed to do?

We need to audit the sourcecode that runs in these machines.
We have only gotten to do that accidentally, and for one model
of voting machine only. That revealed a system with almost
non-existant security. It is hard to imagine that they could have
designed such an insecure system merely due to incompetance.

Computerized voting machines need to run open-source code.
Part of the procedure for bringing up a computerized voting machine
must be to verify that the code running there is the audited code.
The SHA-1 hash of the compiled code should be published so that
the integrity of the code can be manually verified as well.
The code should be signed with a cryptographic key owned by the
certifying authority.

Yes, we know exactly what SHOULD be there. We know it ISN'T there.
We have been screaming about it for a couple of years now.

I considered flying out to Ohio for Election Day, but it would have
been expensive and futile. They had no compunctions about throwing
all independent observers out on "Homeland Security" grounds when
they had serious hanky-panky to do. Even if we could have observed
every keystroke they did on Election Day, they still could have
stolen the election if the software was programmed to do it.
I donated the money I would have spent on airfare and hotel to
the campaign and a couple of 527s, for whatever good that did.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:18 AM
Response to Reply #62
68. Programmers would need complete and unfettered access
to the machines. Right. We know that's not happening anytime soon.
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shuffnew Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #62
96. No programmers or IT professionals involved? Where do we get such a fact?
I have not seen anything official from the Kerry campaign that they did not have programmer or IT professional expertise involved. How do we know they don't have that type of expertise (unadvertised for obvious reasons?)?
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masshole1979 Donating Member (172 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #62
98. How is it legal that the code of these voting machines isn't disclosed?
I thought Microsoft had to stop putting "easter eggs" in its software precisely because, in order the sell to the government, they had to declare everything that was there--no hidden surprises.

Is it that the states involved don't have similar disclosure requirements? Why doesn't the federal law apply when it's a federal election. Or is the disclosure requirement met by putting the code "in escrow" in some state vault?

This is probably pointless but I'm wondering why this can't be used as the grounds of a suit to get the code in at least one state that must have rules similar to the feds.
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The Velveteen Ocelot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. And they totally ignored Bev Harris, who warned of this months ago...
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Bushfire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #2
101. Actually she warned of it YEARS ago
and so did Lynn Landes, and Rebecca Mercuri who laid the groundwork for so many fighting against BBV.
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brainshrub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. If Kerry was so naive that he didn't think fraud was going to happen,
maybe it's a good thing he didn't become president.

Bush should have known that 9/11 was going to happen, and he did nothing.

Kerry was warned REPEATEDLY that this was going to happen, and he did nothing.
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radiofreesrini Donating Member (72 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. edwards wants to fight
you can tell, you can just TELL...

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:25 PM
Original message
How do you know? He can start right here in NC....we need him to
bring some programmers in here!!!
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Calvinist Basset Donating Member (318 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
15. I don't get it . . .
I've seen this map before--and I get the concept of all the blue states belonging to Kerry. But the sentence around the map just boggles me: "All your state are belong to us?" What does that mean?
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MsUnderstood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. It is an obscure refernce to some cheesy anime
All your base are belong to us...I think.

google it.
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uhhuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. This will explain all
http://www.planettribes.com/allyourbase/story.shtml

It is a long running internet joke.
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uhhuh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #15
27. Dupe post
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 11:43 PM by uhhuh
n/t
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. It's kind of stupid, isn't it?
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 11:24 PM by lizzy
I mean, we all knew about the FRAUD.
Just the fact that republicans controls those machines should give anyone a clue.

But I don't think Kerry is naive. Didn't he call Bushest the crookedest and most lying group of people when he didn't know his microphone was on?
:wtf:
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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. impossible. Carter even came out and said there would be voting
problems in Florida. Kerry is not that stupid.
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graywarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
4. Jesus, we had that figured out. WTF?
Let us run the goddamn country. This is rediculous.
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:20 PM
Response to Original message
5. I Appreciate The Candor -- But I Have No Respect For Utter Stupidity
I'm supposed to believe that these gentlemen know how to wipe their own asses?
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snot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:24 PM
Response to Original message
8. The impt point is, COMPUTER TECHS NEEDED IN OHIO by
everyone recounting or investigating. Shd, can, someone post info calling for geek volunteers and telling them who to contact?
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. SKINNER PUT OUT A CALL ON ELECTION NIGHT TO FOLLOW HIM TO OHIO!!!!!!!!!!!!
And he backed down. I'm not sure why. But he was ready to go and take 1,000 techs with him.
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AnnitaR Donating Member (958 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. WHO backed down?
They told him personally they didn't want his help??
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:15 AM
Original message
I was ready to go, too. :( :(
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
159. Kick
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GregD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
9. Regrettably, that seems to be true.
Someone I work with at the top of the opposition to the voting machines, spoke to one of the lead attorneys for Election Protection shortly before the election.

She was horrified to discovered that this attorney knew VERY LITTLE about the BBV issue.

Simply stated, discovering that poignant little fact really sucked...
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jmatthan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. John Kerry should account for the money
he collected for the recount.

Every lawyer involved should payback their fees charged along with a penalty for their incompetence.

This and the entire recount fund should go to Bev Harris and her team to contuinue the battle on behalf of the Amwerican voters.

Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinch who took Bev seriously before the election should be put in charge of the recounyt operations.

John Kerry should make a public apology for his incompetence.

These are just the very basic steps if yoiu are to see democracy survive as otherwise the Bush style lack of responsibility will continue within the Democratic party!!

Or is John Kerry cut of the same coat as Gerge Bush - unable to puiblicly accept the mistakes he has made?

Jacob Matthan
Oulu, Finland
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Branjor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
72. Maybe he is.....
<<Or is John Kerry cut of the same coat as Gerge Bush - unable to puiblicly accept the mistakes he has made?

Maybe he IS cut out of the same coat as Bush. After all, he was never able to admit he made a mistake with his Iraq war vote. Heaven forbid he should be a "flip flopper".
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
12. If This Is True, Then None Of Us Has Any Reason To Support These Bozos
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 11:31 PM by Tace
Idiots! Morons! Imbeciles!

Of course they go home to fucking mansions.

I'm sorry. I'm just so pissed-off!
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EST Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
48. Don't be sorry!
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 12:19 AM by EST
If this isn't the most reprehensible admission of the naive, ivory tower, dumbass, head-in-the-sand, unashamed stupidity endemic to the entire run of professional politicians, then it's time for Mad magazine to write the future script for all of US government. How the hell could anybody seeking a position of such power and influence be so much less informed than half the democratic base? Don't these idiots (especially democratic leaders) ever read anything by Greg Palast or half a hundred important writers of the last four years, anything of more importance than the fucking baseball scores, for chrissakes?!

So, be pissed! How can a leader claim to plan to turn the attack boats into the enemy when he has no friggen' idea who the enemy is? GRRRRR
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Pithy Cherub Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
13. It is very hard to pick what is the dumbest
thing from this. How could they NOT know? Aren't lawyers trained in research, knowing an issue... There is absolutely no excuse for this type of poor legal planning on voting system issues. Hugs to Bev who probably barfed when she heard this!
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gumby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:33 PM
Response to Original message
14. This is total bullshit
maybe my tinfoil hat is too tight but "Ian Solomon is associate dean at the Yale Law School" just can't be THAT stupid.

This sounds like a cover-up based on the plausible deny-ability of "stupidity." I'm not buying it. Ten thousand lawyers and they are so stupid that they never heard about BBV?

Sell that crap somewhere else, Dean of Yale. I won't swallow that, even with a glass of plain water. ACK!
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #14
17. Youre Right -- This Smells Worse Than A Two-Week Old Corpse
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Tace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #14
24. DING! What Do Kerry, Bush, And Solomon Have In Common -- Yale!
What the fuck is with YALE?
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shuffnew Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #24
97. Yale? They are not the only ones.
Yes, many have come from Yale. Key is that Solomon went to Florida on a family member request, not Kerry campaign request (unless I misread Ian's statement).

Who is Ian? I don't know, do you? Does he speak for Kerry? I don't think so. He claims to be a Kerry supporter, but do you know that for a fact? I don't.

Patience. Kerry will prevail. He has proven that over and over again.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #14
25. I think the guy is right.
We lost, didn't we?
Nobody was watching the computers.
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #14
31. I think you're right gumby
I believe there must be some sort of contest out there...perhaps a bet.....who can tell the most outrageous story........

AND SELL IT TO THE AMERICAN PUBLIC SUCCESSFULLY......


WHO DO YOU THINK IS WINNING?
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
33. Sorry, if they were prepared for BBV
we wouldn't be in the mess we are now, would we?
It's obvious the guy is telling the truth.
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #33
35. after the 2000 election
.....they weren't looking for fraud...yeah right!
I have heard of Bev Harris for at least a year now....she's been on Lou Dobbs and tons of radio shows and in the news for nailing Diebold in California....she was hit on by the secret service more than 8 mos ago asking for the names of people on her web site...she is VERY WELL KNOWN.

this is all just a bunch of bullshit.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Please!
If they were "prepared for FRAUD" how the hell did they allow republican owned machines count the votes without any checking? How?
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. same reason why they keep saying...
we are not planning to change the results of the election
the same reason why kerry conceded while people were still in line to vote
the same reason kerry took off on vacation....
the same reason why kerry never raised the 9/11 question

....skull and bones

if we want to expose the fraud...it is got to be us....you can not count on these people to do it....they are really not interested in the fraud...this is a dog and pony show

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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. Please!
If they were "prepared for FRAUD" how the hell did they allow republican owned machines count the votes without any checking? How?
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Bonescrat Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. It's hardly obvious...
There has not been very many obvious things since
Nov 2.

And John Kerry could get as many statisticians as he
wants with 5 phone calls... He couldn't possibly be
where he is without connections...
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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 04:49 PM
Response to Reply #14
126. I told Cam Kerry about BBV personally.
He came to Houston. Met a bunch of well-heeled attorneys at a cocktail party/fundraiser. One of my friends got me in because she thought Cam Kerry (John's brother, and a lawyer) needed to hear about electronic vote problems.

Cam said they were planning to have hundreds of attorneys on the ground in Florida -- they were gonna be READY.

I told him in the large group, and in person after, that he needed to contact computer/technology experts who were familiar with voting technology in particular -- lawyers were not enough. I handed him a copy of The Nation article by Ronnie Dugger - cover story.

How They Could Steal the Election This Time

by RONNIE DUGGER
The Nation, Cover Story -- August 16, 2004 issue
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040816&s=dugger


If the Kerry campaign didn't know that electronic voting machines have flimsy to zero security, they were willfully ignorant.

Howard Dean didn't happen to mention it to them?

Come on.


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rhite5 Donating Member (510 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:36 PM
Response to Original message
19. I am finding this pretty hard to believe
There is no way that Kerry or his attorneys were unaware of the dangers of fraud in the vote counting process. I can see they were concerned about voter suppression and poll access, and proper procedures, but surely they also knew about dangers in the counting process itself. I cannot believe there was no preparation for that.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Well, we lost, didn't we?
So, how could there have been a preparation for BBV?
I think that lawyer is right, they were not prepared for computer FRAUD.
All the more reason for them to DEMAND recounts!
They collected money for recounts.
Yet, they rolled over and played dead.
:argh:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. I hate to say it but maybe they are "out of touch." They are all used to
having "clericals" do their computer work. He and his Campaign staff are not of an age where using computers comes naturally to them. They probably think they are like using a microwave oven, and don't realize the dangers.

Remember he had a bunch of old hacks around him who've been doing campaigns for years, are millionaires so the "servants" do the work for them...Even Carville and Begala probably are out of touch with computers. Everyone was so in awe of Trippi running Deans campaign because they were clueless about how computers could be used.

But, agree there's really so little excuse for this it's hard to defend them.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #28
42. yes!
KoKo you make an excellent point. I so often see people post things as though these candidates (celebrities really) are somehow Gods or something.

Anyone who has been in the entertainment industry - which is basically what a campaign is, a road show - or has worked in any kind of high pressure office KNOWS that there can be an insular culture of yes men surrounding the "star" or the boss, and that he can be very vulnerable and out of touch with reality. When you see the schedule Kerry was on during the campaign, and the number of hangers-on and kiss-you-know-whats around him, and high priced slick talking operatives, it would be no surprise to me whatsoever to find out that Kerry was just plain out of touch.

We saw that happen with the Clark campaign. He hired people who were recommended to him as "the best" - a bunch of DLC retread hacks IMNSHO - and they very quickly insulated Clark from his supporters and aggressively steered him the direction they wanted to go and dragged his campaign into DLC hell from which it never emerged.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #28
52. Good God Almighty. If this is true - no effing words. nt
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kristndem Donating Member (346 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #28
67. Now this rings true
Of everything else I've heard here, this seems the most plausible.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #28
108. Very, very smart observation. n/t
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #28
109. The big answer
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 02:24 PM by PATRICK
How much traction did BBV ever get here? It sort of slipped into our common fears when it became obvious that Dean not the DLC had Bush nailed and that they would stop at nothing to win.

Bev went to this group, besieged, that, got part of the angle into the press, helped active challenges to real observable failings in code and elections, but everything slid away from the center. The fight over a mere paper trail consumed the entire energy of scattered opponents in SOME states which distracted from the central issue of the GOP rush to put in this junk without accountability.

On these boards some staffer irritably assured us they were working on ALL voting problems together and we shouldn't just single out BBV. Maybe that person was right, except we got hit with both new and the classic coke bottles right on the noggin. HAVA was a perverted, toothless joke, as was the national election commission and the old fogies from international commissions- none of whom I suspect are computer illiterate. None of the pros and leaders spend any time on the workings of the electronic age, few Democratic campaign managers or politicians can do more than stumble into the Internet.

Most high school and grade school students receive bare bones computer literacy courses. I suspect none of our leadership is even up to that level and have neither the time no basic skills for comfortable surfing or googling research. God knows the news media can't even google their own archives.

This sliding away from clear and present dangers because of arrogant old habits of thought is epidemic. Stupidity is misapplied intelligence not low IQ. Bush applied his to simple theft where no one was looking and with a party to protect their one avenue to raw power.

Bev had called for all sorts of volunteers for a myriad of election night protection projects on BBV. She had not an iota of attention or help for the MILLIONS of unaccountable votes at stake. Our sole hope was that Bush would not simply go for it as he had telegraphed with complete confidence for years of apparently overplayed behavior. 2002 sealed our fate but even the state vote analysis of 2000 showed massive fraud.

NOW try to tell these idiots, thrice fooled, that online voting is not the answer to all their woes. They already had conned interested groups in Illinois? Michigan? and only backed off a bit on the planned experiment this year with 100,000 overseas virtual ballots, instead relying on a gummed up confusing paper system.

Hello? the right to vote is lost. The hearts and minds of the voters? Who the hell knows? Only Corporate Pravda flimflam will spread smoke over all voices all truth so that nothing will be apparent ever. Yet I wager our politicians not only have their nose to the boob tube but actually get programmed along with the rest of the country's victims.

Leadership? Professionalism? The thieves have it in their perverse way because they can't survive without it and can't continue without destroying law and civil government.

Accustomed to crude theft for dictators in other lands, this smooth system of suckers and a gold rush of ravenous rich donors seems almost civilized, quiet, slick and stable. Because they don't know what a bit or file is or even one line of code the world must fall?

1000 lawyers descended on Florida in 2002 and were humiliated openly twice, in the primaries with the glitching out of a former US AG and again in the pumped up votes for Jeb in November. And all the old stuff resisted extinction very nicely, thank you.

Fraud? Nearly 100% of the stories and speeches only referred to the odd Dem blunderer or old folks registration.

No, the problem with the top leadership all decent people rely on is that it is a dismal, outdated failure and would not get it even now had not Bev and some bloggers waved flags over the obvious. The unions, the advocacy groups don't get it even now. The League of Women Voters under intense graas roots pressure softly backed away from its terrible blunder of advocating the digital bandits based on the sales pitch.

Surely, we all presumed, SOMEONE could be found who could see, think, judge and act. In that presumption we acted on blind hope, and in that hope we are doubly disappointed, moreso than the issue and voter sentiment pulse takers in our discredited leadership. I work 60 hours a week regularly besides family obligations. How do news pros and politicians waste there time that they can't see forest or trees that cry for their attention? What fear do THEY have that tempers their actions, quells their thoughts, circles wagons against unpleasant facts?

It is not the misled and robbed and voiceless American public who disappointed us. I would expect reasonably similar results under the clouds they labor under. It is those who would lead and have failed even to protect themselves and still think the old game holds a place for them. ANY politician who can't raise and listen to a staff dealing with modern times ought to abdicate to the junkyard for they are a threat to a nation already much lost to crime.

It is with growing alarm, not pride that thoughtful commoners here and in other alcoves of reason, view how often they are right in their instincts, right in their research, right in their intuition, while the buffoonish herd of leaders pipes us merrily to a national death. In our trust we were wrong. In our hopes, disappointed. In our our worst fears, optimistic.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #109
141. I am tired of that
Brilliant post, Patrick, thanks.

"...some staffer irritably assured us they were working on...."

God, if I have heard that once I have heard it a thousand times over the last 30 years from Democratic party staffers. Many of you know the drill - you show up, ready to fight for the cause, sleeves rolled up and all fired up... and they pat you on the head, treat you like you are an some sort of irritating interloper, shoo you away, and promise you in a condescending tone that "they are working on that." So, we think well, OK, they must have the experts in place, they might know more than we do, and I guess we will have to hope that they get the job done.

Fot 30 years we have been told to go away and let the pros handle it. The PROS don't suffer when they fail again, and again, and again. WE do. They go merrily along from job to job, making up stories to cover their behinds at our expense.
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hedda_foil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #19
34. Sorry, it's true. They refused to listen.
They were just so sure they knew everything there was to know. The idiots had no idea what they were up against on any front, but particularly not BBV.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #34
36. Check your PM....I just had a thought.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #34
47. that is it, hedda
"They were just so sure they knew everything there was to know."

Arrogance. Completely out of touch.
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Slit Skirt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #19
55. my thoughts exactly
..how stupid do they think we are....
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shuffnew Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #19
99. Ditto!
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liquiduniverse Donating Member (61 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:38 PM
Response to Original message
21. The fact that the Repugs railroaded through the electronic machines ...
Edited on Mon Nov-15-04 11:40 PM by liquiduniverse
in Florida should have been a big clue. Of course these machines only went to the largest counties that were going to overwhelming vote for Kerry. And of course, these machines don't leave much voter documentation behind. And of course, these machines are not very secure. And of course the companies that make the machines donate heavily to the Republican party, which means that the Repugs were able to get easily tampered machines in place for this election and get paid for it at the taxpayers expense.

It's a joyful time to be an American.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
23. We had a lawyer heading up our canvassing team and he still doesn't
want to hear about the Touch Screen or Optical Scan codes interfering with the vote. I've tried sending articles about this to him because he's still involved with our group, but NO ONE wants to talk about it.

Is it because they don't understand it? Hell, I'm computer clueless but I can understand that software can be tinkered with and adjusted. WHY, WHY, WHY....DON'T THESE PEOPLE GET IT!

Remember when the computer which was "shared" in the Senate was hacked to Get Democratic memos out and there was a big investigation that came to nothing. My first thought was why were the Democrats so stupid as to SHARE a computer with the Repugs in the first place!

Yes..the Repugs are way ahead of us with techie knowledge...at least they know how to find and pay some clever ones....

Sheesh....
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shuffnew Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #23
95. Heeaded up our canvassing team? Are you talking about Solomon?
If referring to Solomon... The way I interpret the statement and article is that he was solicited by a family member to go to Florida (not heading up the Kerry campaign legal team canvassing).
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #23
138. why don't they get it?
Edited on Wed Nov-17-04 12:32 AM by m berst
They don't get it because there is a built in bias in the Democratic party that has been growing for years and years now. There are the smart, connected, hip, savvy insiders - think Carville - who now evertything there is to know, who have seen it all, who have the credentials, who know the right people, and who know how the game is played, and then there is us - the poor, dumb plebes out there somewhere in flatland.

They do the demographics, they do the focus groups, and they know all that they need to know about us. We aren't human beings anymore to them. We are the electorate, or the constituency - just a herd of sheep whose behavior they analyze and predict and profit from.

The contempt towards us and the sense of entitlement and superiority just drip off of the Democratic party insiders and leaders, yet they can count on hero worship from enough of us that the critics are quickly silenced - "How dare you say that? John Kerry is a very good man!!" Well, he may be. Robert Kennedy and Franklin Roosevelt were good men, too, but more importantly they were courageous leaders who put the needs of the people they represented ahead of their careers or even their personal safety.

How come back in the 40's and 50's there was none of this hero worship and reluctance to criticize Dem leaders, yet the base for the party was more solid and we won more elections? Ponder that the next time you call for "unity" or defend one of these pampered and privileged out of touch so-called leaders.

Something is very, very seriously wrong with the Democratic party. Over the last year we critics were told "That's ok if you criticize, but not now! We have an election to win!!" Well, ok, but there seems to be no more tolerance for criticism of the party now that the election is over than there was before.

Calls for unity and party loyalty become a cruel joke when they are used to continue a cover up and a denial of deep flaws in the party. The calls for unity are really calls for exclusiveness - get on the centrist bandwagon or get out. It will ultimately lead to the death of the party if it continues.
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Rebel47 Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #138
145. Lets Regain Control of Our Party!
Excellent Post! YES -- We need to regain control of our party. A party that reflects the interest and views of the vast majority of the people. The party of the working class. We need to spin off the elitist far left that forces upon us candidates that are SO far left that we lose elections and hence control of our own destiny.

We need to regain control of our party and destiny.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:03 AM
Response to Reply #145
147. say what??
"We need to spin off the elitist far left that forces upon us candidates that are SO far left that we lose elections and hence control of our own destiny."

Uh, afraid not there. "Far left" eh? Now what would those far left positions be, to your way of thinking? Who would the "us" be in your mind that need to regain control of "our" party?

I am talking about the party taking the positions that FDR and Robert Kennedy took. Are you saying that "we" have gone to the "far left" since then and in comparison to the positions of those leaders?

"Elitist far left" is a contradiction in terms. Are you a Republican, or just one who has listened to a little too much Republican propaganda?

I can't believe that you accidentally misunderstood what I said, and I resent you pretending to agree while you twist my meaning to the precise opposite from what I said.

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PBS Poll-435 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:48 PM
Response to Original message
29. Not bothered at all by this c**p "article". n/t
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. I guess the Dems served up a dud.?
I am sad to hear this. If he doesn't pursue this, he will probably lose support in 2008.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-15-04 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. There really shouldn't be any "probably" about it.
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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #32
40. I am a programmer &
All that they have been speaking of is possible, and I would never allow my vote to be taken by one of those machines.
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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #30
51. If he doesn't follow up on this, I'd want him replaced in the Senate.
I'm still giving Kerry a chance to show help really is on the way, but if this roll over is permanent, why should we want him in our government at all? Of course, only Massachusetts has the say in that.

He would qualify as a spineless, pink tutu Dem. We don't need that.

On the other hand, if he's laying low, waiting for the truth to come out, I'll apologize. I really won't make up my mind one way or the other until I see what happens.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #30
142. you have got to be kidding
Expand on that comment a little. "He will probably lose support in 2008?"
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robicat Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:10 AM
Response to Original message
41. Mea Culpa....
Supposed ground trooper in Florida who was there on his aged mother's request, and happens to be a Dean of Law at Yale.

What he says is an important point to make because the presence of Democrat lawyers all over the election can give the result credibility in people's eyes. (Like how could they do that with this amount of scrutiny??)Mea culpa is a good way to get the fraud meme out and about without Kerry showing his hand.

The fact Michael Moore is quite suggests to me that Kerry is playing his cards close to his chest. Why would a sh**stirrer like Moore be quite like this otherwise? This stuff is his specialty.

Anyhow this is a good "name" to have onside in presenting this story to MSM.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. And what are they waiting for?
LOL.
If they are afraid of their own shadow, what makes you think anybody is "fighting"?
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #44
144. they are waiting for us to go away
They have a good deal going. Nice jobs, secure futures. Plenty of money and a glamorous lifestyle. If only it weren't for those dumb people hassling them all the time to do something.

They are waiting for us to get tired, collapse, and wander off again so they don't have to worry about us. Then they can get back to the real business of running corporate America for their true bosses.

Sorry to be so cynical, but after 35 years of the same story, and playing along out of loyalty to the party, I draw the line at the death of democracy.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #41
45. Let's hope you are correct about this....you make an interesting point,
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 12:16 AM by KoKo01
and I've been surprised at Moore's silence. I also had a little twinge reading it, that maybe the article was "planted." OTOH, there does seem to be some "bumbling" by our Dems when it comes to computers...so who knows. :shrug:

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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #45
57. meanwhile our time is going down the drain
I think Lizzie is right. Why should we think anyone is fighting at this point?

In the last few days I read somewhere that Moore is editing his new documentary that we will all be able to see in a few years--like we're going to be interested in a few years.

I think the Dems in charge are playing dumb. We all emailed our poor little fingers to the bone. Everyone in congress and anywhere near a campaign has received multiple warnings about the republican owned machines without a paper trail. On Charlie Rose's show last friday Jerrold Nadler said that the Dems have had a bill in for a year or so to require a paper trail but the republicans resisted it, he didn't know why.

They have all known about it for a long time. THEY CAN'T PLAY DUMB.

I'm worried about those in high places, both repub and dem, playing the clock down.

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GetTheRightVote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #41
46. I am hopeful but if not ........

I believe it would be time for us to take care of business and push our own combined beliefs, power to the people and I am not to far off believing in secesion from this union with the reds who are dependent on our taxes. It may be time for us to follow in our fore fathers steps and take back our nation and keep her safe from these who would harm her and us with her. There is more then one way to skin a cat.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:23 AM
Response to Reply #46
53. not so simple...
and not really relevant to the topic at hand.

Every state is an admixture of some red and some blue precincts within some red and some blue counties.

Welcome to DU.
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #46
125. Everyone is a victim
every state is a blank, a virtual tabula rasa for the kingmakers. Those most ignorant and played upon will not benefit much either from the death of democracy being hidden by partisan divisions among the victims.

We are all victims, all former-Americans. None of the people's interests are being served.
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Bonescrat Donating Member (227 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #41
49. Sound argument that I tend to agree with...
It's not just Moore that's quiet... It's everyone...
and you KNOW they're all too aware of it...

I'm more excited than down from this... :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. erase the pessimism
in this thread.
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #41
110. Yes, I found this article shocking!
He called Kerry "my client" in one paragraph, and said he believes in the possibility of fraud in another. Whoa! Hartford Courant, too.

This is a first, people.

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Applepie Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #41
131. I had the same thought...
also, and with Al Franken's new attitude. I think they know what is going on behind the scenes. I am still hopeful. :)
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Karenca Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
54. I'm sure
these are the most brilliant lawyers money can buy.
I would not be pessimistic about the article at all---
The lawyers know what to say to the press.
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jsamuel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
56. 10,000 lawyers DO NOT SPEAK FOR KERRY!
I am tired of everyone acting like everything a lawyer says is a direct quote from Kerry! The only statements Kerry himself has made is that they are still fighting to have every vote count.

I am suspicious of all these people telling us that we shouldn't support our future president because a lawyer in Ohio said something bad...
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delphine Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:36 AM
Response to Original message
58. Guys, all this freaking out . . .
But I saw an article from July of 2004 that said that the teams of Kerry attorneys being sent out WERE in fact looking for fraud and well aware of the issues surrounding the voting machines. I will try to find it - I'm not sure where I saw it, perhaps on one of the threads here.

This guy was blithely unaware of the black box issue, but the campaign was not.
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noiretextatique Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:44 AM
Response to Original message
59. methinks this message is for the mainstream media
sorry, but i have trouble believing any attorney is this naive.
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Gyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
60. I'm a lawyer and I can tell you
95% of all lawyers are terrified of anything involving math (even rudimentary math) and 90% are complete dummies when it comes to computers.

They are the bane of our IT team. Mostly, because they don't know shit and they will never admit it. If that was what Kerry was relying on, the implications are pretty scary. Not only for America, but what it says about Kerry's competence re: something he absolutely knew was coming.

Gyre
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mcub Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #60
140. Also a lawyer & one that is familiar with computers
I was in Wisconsin (Madison) for a week working for the Kerry Voter Protection Team as a fly team member. We had over 800 lawyers in Wisconsin. The core team in Madison was very tech savvy and quite capable. However, our primary focus on election day was to guard against the existing knowledge base of GOP dirty tricks. We were quite effective in making sure that everyone that wanted to vote could and that their vote would be counted. Same day registration issues, residency, absentee and provisional ballot battles were fought and won. This is what preserved the small victory margin in Wisconsin.
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angrydemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:37 AM
Response to Original message
61. It Amazes Me How So Many People Are So ...............
....Quick to jump to conclusions, pass judgment, and make nasty remarks about Kerry when they don't have all the facts and on top of that only a few weeks ago was supporting him and voted for him. If you can trust a man enough to vote for him as president then why is that you don't trust him now? That doesn't even make any since. SHEESH! Do any of you have any real proof that this man isn't doing anything about all of this? And I mean real proof not some article or something you heard some right wing nut on TV say I mean real proof. I seriouly doubt any of you can show real proof this man is doing nothing about what has happen no more than I can so proof he is. The difference is I'm not jumping to conclusions, passing judgment, and making nasty remarks about the man. None of us know everything that is Kerry has going on now or election day. None of us know for sure who all he has working for him now or election day. The only thing we know right now is that there was voter intimadation and fraud. At this time they don't know exactly how much or exactly who all are involved. But all of this will be found out. At this time we are not sure if it will change the outcome of certain states like Ohio or Florida enough to overturn the election but again we will find out. Yes Kerry conceded but everyone knows that isn't legally binding and that he still has plenty of time to unconcede if they find enough evidence to overturn the election. The only thing that Kerry accomplished when he conceded was to get the media and the right wing nut out of the picture so they will be able to find out what in the hell happen, where exactly it happen, and who is responsible for it. Had he not conceded the media and wing nutters would have had a feild day spinning all this to there advantage and possibly destorying or getting rid of some of the evidence. By them thinking Kerry had already given up the fight most of them are back to their usual BS and bragging, planning out what they are going to do while Kerry and the others are still very much in the fight the repugs are just to stupid to realize it. Why do I beleive this ? Because Kerry has never been a quitter in his life. This man has always been a fighter and you can loof at his career and see that. He has never been a quitter in the past and he sure as hell isn't going to start being one now. This man was a attorney himself he knows what he is doing, the best way to go about it to come out with the best results. He did bring down BCCI. It didn't happen overnight but he did it. The fact of the matter is that wether or not this election gets overturned before all is said and done Bush and the repugs are going to wish they never heard the name Kerry! A real fact here is this man is a fighter not a quitter, a true patriot, he loves and respects this country as much as anyone, and this man has fought and worked for the people of this country and will continue to do so.
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JaneEyrez Donating Member (168 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #61
70. Thank you!!!!
I second everything you just said. In addition, I think it is a testament to the essential DECENCY of Democrats that makes it harder for our side to pull dirty tricks, commit fraud and to look for that in others. I think this author is correct. He was so busy doing the right thing and helping keep the voting fair, he failed to miss the bigger picture of how far the Resmugs were willing to go when the chips were down. I suspect that the decision to actually hack the election was actually late in the day when the exit polls began to go seriously against them. Kind of like a desperation thing, like, "By God, we're not going to lose, not if we have the means to keep it from happening." So let's not be SO HARD on the good guys for behaving and thinking in the ways that make them good guys. Would you like Kerry better if he had Karl Rove up his ass like Bush does? It might guarantee we'd win, but win what?
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sunnystarr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #61
78. I can agree with all you say except
for the fact that the Kerry campaign or the DNC isn't providing the funds needed for Bev's audit or the efforts of the Dem committee (isn't that up to 6 Dems?) or the third party candidates for a recount. We all contributed to make sure a fund was there so why isn't this fund being made available to expose the fraud? And yes I've emailed the DNC to release funds as everyone should.

This is what makes it so hard to keep the faith with Kerry/Edwards. I'm sure we'd all love being reassured with some show of solidarity.
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rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #78
84. can they give money to bev?
What are the FEC laws surrounding them giving the money they were given to another cause such as Bev or the recount efforts? all these laws they put into effect - seem to make everything so difficult. Plus - Dean is huge in the dem party, and he knows about this, he even went on topicA with Bev earlier this year. I think that the silence of everyone is definitely a good sign. I think they know a heck of a lot more than this lawyer is saying. Just my guess, but I'm new here. You're right about Michael Moore - I don't think he would be so quiet. Argh. Maybe I'm just desparately hopeful.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #78
100. Where the money comes from makes a huge difference in waking the monster
of false outcry by TeamStealAmerica. The people quietly doing it on their own, independent of political candidacy, is more far powerful. It becomes more than a partisan fight, which can more easily be dismissed.
What we need to do, instead of worrying about what Kerry, lawyers, and DNC are or are not doing is to keep getting the word out to the media. We need to keep the issue alive and growing as the cognitive dissonance lifts. It is up to us, who know what happened to keep witnessing it for the rest of the population until it becomes known, not buried in denial.
There will be plenty of time to reform the Democratic party and get rid of all those who have not worked on behalf of the people who put them in power when this is over. This is such a critical window now. We need to be working like hell to fight for every shred of truth to be revealed.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #100
120. Yes...it's much better the money come from "private donations" by "People"
than brining the DNC/DLC into it. That way the MEDIA and the rest of them can't harp this was Kerry funded/Democratic Leadership driven.

It's exactly the way the RW Repugs operate. They use their churches and
preachers to push the people so that the Repug Party looks like it's being pushed by "grassroots." No one ever tells folks that Mellon-Scaife and the Think Tanks are feeding the Fundie Operatives to stir the people up.

It's better we do this....then we control the issue. The DNC/DLC is beholden to the People once again for this effort. Even if there is some silent approval or help for us...it won't have a trail that's easily discovered.

RIGHT BACK ATCHA REPUGS....As Dean said "YOU HAVE THE POWER!"
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Rebel47 Donating Member (16 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #78
137. Where's the Challenge??
Possibly the people running the DNC don't want to challenge the election results because of reasons unknown to us. Is it possible that they don't want to overturn the election results? We all know a challenge is in order here, but where and when is it to be mounted? Time is running out for our candidates. Something MUST be done NOW to "Rock the Boat". Yes, it is very distasteful and difficult for us to acknowledge that some unknown force is in control of this election, and that our own people may be manipulating this election to set up a future election win. I certainly hope I'm wrong and that a serious challenge will soon be initiated.
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sce56 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #61
81. Brought to you by Liebold!
It does not seem to matter this is the kind of stuff we the people listening to Bev Harris constantly sent to our Reps and Senators last year to get them to do something about these infernal one way to count bandit machines
Chuck Hagel and Nebraska's Upset http://www.infernalpress.com/Columns/election.html

"If you want to win the election, just control the machines."
-- Charlie Matulka, Nebraska Senatorial Candidate

Chuck Hagel first ran for the U.S. Senate in Nebraska in 1996. Electronic voting machines owned by Election Systems & Software (ES&S) reported that he had won both the primaries and the general election in unprecedented victories. His 1996 victory was considered one of the biggest upsets of that election. He was the first Republican to win a Nebraska senatorial campaign in 24 years and won virtually every demographic group, including many largely black communities that had never before voted Republican.

Six years later Hagel ran again against Democrat Charlie Matulka in 2002, and won in a landslide. He was re-elected to his second term with 83% of the vote: the biggest political victory in the history of Nebraska. Again, the votes were counted by ES&S, now the largest voting machine company in America.

While these victories could be dismissed simply as a Republican upset, a January 2003 article in the independent Washington paper The Hill revealed interesting details about Hagel's business investments and casts a different light on his election successes. Chuck Hagel was CEO of ES&S (then AIS) until 1995 and he is still a major stockholder of the parent company of ES&S, McCarthy & Company. Hagel resigned as CEO of ES&S to run for the Senate and resigned as president of the parent company McCarthy & Company following his election (where he remains a major investor).

Today, the McCarthy Group is run by Michael McCarthy, who happens to be Chuck Hagel's treasurer. Hagel's financial's still list the McCarthy Group as an asset, with his investment valued at $1-$5 million. Campaign finance reports show that Michael McCarthy also served as treasurer for Hagel until December of 2002.

ES&S also has a connection to the Bush family. Jeb Bush's first choice as running mate in 1998 was Sandra Mortham who was a paid lobbyist for ES&S and received a commission for every county that bought its touch-screen machines.

The Hill's revelations of Hagel's conflict of interest was disturbing enough to cause Jan Baran, one of the most powerful Republican lawyers in Washington D.C., and Lou Ann Linehan, Senator Chuck Hagel's Chief of Staff, to walk into The Hill's offices to "discuss" the story. According to the author of the article, Alex Bolton, nothing similar had happened in the three-and-a-half years he's worked for the paper. It was, no doubt, a story Hagel would rather see go unreported.


Yet with out a free and open MEDIA the story gets no traction!
Of course if you were in the media and wanted to run a story about the truth behind the fraud of these republicans then you would suffer the consequence of your actions by either
A. getting fired by the editor after receiving a call from the White House.
B. have your credibility attacked aka Dan Rathering by having true stories given to you with FAKE documentation to call your story a fake after it runs.
And Lastly
C. Get attacked by terrorist using highly sophisticated Anthrax which just so happens to come from a secret US Government Lab by a "Rouge Agent" of the Government(in other words works for Tricky Dick)!!!!!

I believe that when they attacked the Media in Nov 01 it was a wake up call to them to not rock the boat! How many of you have seen the coverage in the media of the Marriani Suit against George Bush and company filed as a RICO act against organized crime? http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0311/S00261.htm
Won't happen will it! I think the best thing we can do right now is to Organize a protest across this country the day before the electoral college meets to anoint Bush it would have to be big enough to get the medias attention and start some traction on these stories! By the way one of the best thing to do is get educated on the BBV story by reading the book it is here for free to d/l www.blackboxvoting.org this is the book we need to Blogged around the country with some grass roots organizing to protest the theft of our democracy!




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myschkin Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #61
90. Don't be fixed on Ohio

In my opinion the fraud was nationwide (see also the article about North Carolina) - it's not just a fight about votes in Ohio and Florida... The nationwide result is a fake.

It's so easy: http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevote.htm

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shuffnew Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #61
92. Great Summary of Truth about Kerry!
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 12:07 PM by shuffnew
Thank you for a great post of truth. I question who this Ian Solomon really is and telling us to get busy now to fix the fraud for the future?!?! (Basically saying that this was UNKNOWN before he joined Kerry's lawyers (but note he said he popped into Florida on family request, not Kerry request). Remember... Kerry and Bush both went to Yale, so the fact this guy is an assistant dean at Yale doesn't tell you whose side he really is on either and to what party he favors actually (even those his article does state he is a Kerry suppporter)! IF he was a true Democrat and Kerry supporter, he should have been totally humiliated to print such an article stating that he was a lawyer who was so ignorant that he simply didn't realize any "fraud" before he popped in (on family request - not Kerry request, by the way) to Florida. Oh, if only HE had known what he knows today....??? I do not believe this for one moment and I am sick of these ignorant statements!

There is no way that Kerry is not aware of the fraud (now or before this election).

And you are absolutely right... Kerry has sacrificed much in his life to expose fraud and corruption and to bring the truth to the TOP to protect our country and all Amercians.

This is not a dead issue with Kerry anymore than it is for us!

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Emillereid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:09 AM
Response to Original message
63. I wondered about the usefulness of so many lawyers --
I kept telling people that we needed to form techie brigades from all the graduate schools from around the country.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #63
66. Remember, nothing could be done until a crime
was committed. This means, people had to vote, the votes needed to be counted. No one could yell fraud or vote skimming until it had been done. Now, it's wait and see for us. The recounts should tell a big story.
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HR_Pufnstuf Donating Member (782 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:20 AM
Response to Original message
64. OK, if this doesnt get Howard the DNC post...
...nothing will.


Incompetance is no excuse.

Howard warned you that this could happen.

So did we, the people.

Is the digital divide really getting that big already??

does kerry think there is more than one internets too?







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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
65. praise the lord someone actually GETS IT.
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 03:32 AM by bullimiami
I sure hope this is not an isolated moment of clarity.
It is not too late if the entirety of the Kerry team truly understands now what we have been battling since before 2000.

Auditing of touchscreen machines and the ability to prove tampering there we must leave to the computer experts and Bevs team.

The op scans leave a nasty paper trail though which have never been audited to verify the accuracy of tabulation and these are heavy in Florida, NH, Iowa, Ohio and a lot of other places.



You see. I am accepting this on its face. A true mea culpa from someone who is on our side and admits he/they just really didnt understand the problem. No skull and bones conspiracy theorys for me. I believe Kerry was on our side. Not the greatest democratic liberal candidate to me but truly on the side of fairness and legality.
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Karmadillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
69. "My client conceded the race on the belief that the results were clear. "
The results are anything but clear, however, and American democratic legitimacy requires an honest reappraisal of the events in Florida and around the country.

I wonder why he said that. Sounds like someone's laying the groundwork for an unconcession speech should the facts warrant. And I wouldn't take his admission of naivete so literally.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
71. Kerry Lawyers NOW KNOW about the shenanigans in FLORIDA!
He mentions computer technicians, Florida, and a nation wide re-count. Hear Hear! or ever how you spell it! :toast:
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #71
75. After reading all your posts, you "techie" guys remind me
of the anger I feel after trying to "splain" things to my Republican relatives. It's the same kind of anger about having to deal with a "wide streak of dumb". Can you relate? I don't think it's too late to fix all of this. Do yall? Do you think it's all over with? I'm waiting on the @$%* to hit the fan in the media. Am I naive?
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
73. Some of us were trying to get some focus placed on the returns early
during election night. We couldn't get the DU community interested enough to start emailing and calling the campaign though. Most were too interested in silencing those calls with posts about 'defeatist attitudes' and 'hand wringers'. It's become fairly standard fare from the 'know-it-all' clique around here.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #73
76. Man, I love your DU ID
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unfrigginreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #76
83. Thanks
and Welcome to DU!

I like your writing style.
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #73
89. unfrig...i know we have been fighting an uphill battle since wed
the 3rd. i hope our efforts at least get us a decent fight.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #73
146. 'defeatist attitudes' and 'hand wringers'
That "defeatist attitudes" and "hand wringers" bs has gotten lot of mileage over the last 30 years. Somehow if we all just would have a positive attitude, think good thoughts, and cheer real loud, progressive forces will win - providing that we first compromise on all of the progressive positions in order to win. Anyone who suggests that we may be making a mistake in anything we do has a "defeatist atiude" and is dismissed.

Weak, ineffectual and unprincipled stances by the Democratic party have led us to the brink of catastrophe - the death of our democracy. Yet STILL we are not permitted to shout any warnings for fear of being "negative" and thereby by hurting our chances at something or other.
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cpamomfromtexas Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
74. Use those trained to look for fraud
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 10:18 AM by cpamomfromtexas
As a former Air Force Audit manager and CPA and current audit contractor, I can say for sure that CPA's with the assistance of programmers should be used to certify the ballots in each precinct.
This is because CPA's trained to audit are more likely to be able to detect and document internal control weaknesses that can skew election results, and along with programmers could also document and protect evidence that could lead to prison time for perpetrators.

Why is it that in the aftermath of ENRON we have the Sarbanes-Oxley section 404 internal control certification requirements? It was an attempt to restore confidence in the stock market. Why not use the same approach to instill confidence in the election process? Remember that by using CPA firms there is LIABILITY attached to the certification process. Remember Arthur Anderson went down because of a few BAD CPA's. Anything as important as an election should carry LIABILITY as well.

Never forget, IF WATERGATE HAD HAPPENED UNDER THIS ADMINISTRATION, IT WOULD BE DENIED.
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Bushfire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #74
104. Welcome to DU cpamom !
Glad to see an accountant on board.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #74
105. Welcome to DU! I don't suppose you could volunteer in Ohio could you? nt
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cpamomfromtexas Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #105
112. Would love to but...
Would love to but...since the airline employees are getting screwed and hubby took a 40% paycut (only in America does it cost more to go to a movie than across the country you know!), I'm bustin my hump down here in Texas, wondering if I can ever retire!

We call it carpeyism- where all the airlines are going for a race to the bottom, wiping out everyone's retirements. If we don't stop it, it's coming to a corporation near you!

Oh I forgot, under republican admins only the ELITE ever retire!

My Dad told me this when I was a kid, but only now do I know how right he was! And he told me 6 years ago we'd be at war again!

Almost scary it's all so predictable.
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cpamomfromtexas Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #105
116. internal controls and source code
In addition to a review of internal controls at each precinct by two independent firms, the source code (if they insist on using these machines) of each machine should also be reviewed before balloting and after ballotting. This should be ensured by a lockdown of the machines and armed guards if necessary. The danger we have right now is that tracks may have been covered up.

Remember the goal of this is we need a wave of people associated with the problem in jail within 6 months and Kerry in office.

If it takes it, we need to boycott every business in the country that opposes democratic principles and free and fair elections and we need a central place to do it. We need to pool resources to set something like a central boycotting place up, some legal assistance, etc to get this going and some programming. If we can't get fair elections, then we take businesses down that benefit from this administrations policies.


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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #74
117. Good Point....why not have "certified audits." If it was our money instead
of our vote...you bet there would be audits.
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cpamomfromtexas Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #117
119. You got it, why doesn't IRS just "take our word for it"
oh I forgot, we're not from the Bush family.

Are there any lawyers that could file a lawsuit for taxpayers to only have to live up to the same standard of care that has been used in our elections?

I don't know about you, but when I represent clients before IRS they want docs!
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cpamomfromtexas Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 10:21 AM
Response to Original message
77. use those trained to look for fraud
As a former Air Force Audit manager and CPA and current audit contractor, I can say for sure that CPA's with the assistance of programmers should be used to certify the ballots in each precinct.
This is because CPA's trained to audit are more likely to be able to detect and document internal control weaknesses that can skew election results, and along with programmers could also document and protect evidence that could lead to prison time for perpetrators.

Why is it that in the aftermath of ENRON we have the Sarbanes-Oxley section 404 internal control certification requirements? It was an attempt to restore confidence in the stock market. Why not use the same approach to instill confidence in the election process? Remember that by using CPA firms there is LIABILITY attached to the certification process. Remember Arthur Anderson went down because of a few BAD CPA's. Anything as important as an election should carry LIABILITY as well.

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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #77
79. Your point about CPA's certifying.....
I have an undergraduate degree in Accounting. I use to think CPA's could do no wrong till Enron happened. And, Dang, if it wasn't Author Anderson, of all CPA firms, the cream de la cream.....

I guess though, that would be the best possible solution. My desire is to go back to "paper ballots", with #2 pencil, scan them and then count them. What's so hard about that? And, geeze, some criminal somewhere will figure a way around that.
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cpamomfromtexas Donating Member (453 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #79
86. Exactly my point- LIABILITY
That's the point, Arthur Anderson WENT DOWN. Now all the firms know about LIABILITY and are more VIGILANT than ever.

In addition, two firms should be used to certify at EVERY PRECINCT which would provide even more internal control over the process.
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #79
91. we have a guy here who seems a little crazy
he has been calling talk shows for what seems like 2 or more years and he keeps saying we need a certified paper ballot.

damn if he isnt right.

no pencils though.
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BamaBecky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. they gave out the wrong "ink" pen deliberately in OHIO, so I thought
it would make it hard for them to give out the wrong #2 pencil... :P
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shuffnew Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #79
111. Paper Ballots & Correct Exit Polls work for Germany - why not US?
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 02:24 PM by shuffnew
Reportedly, in Germany they use paper ballots. Votes are not completed on the eve of the election, but their exit polls are so accurate that they still know when they go to bed that night who won (w/o the paper ballot count being completed).

So, they reportedly have the integrity of paper ballots AND exit poll accuracy. Go figure?

Meanwhile, the US is the one claiming to be promoting democracy and elections to other countries. Go figure that one too!

We don't even have the basics of a democracy - where votes are real!
Will they use Diebold in Iraq too???

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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #111
130.  even in Germany counting is usually completed by midnight on Election day
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 06:04 PM by Kellanved
Absentee ballots take a few days longer, but the "preliminary final results" are in by midnight.


And the higher turnout combined with a ban on publishing exit polls might have to do something with the higher accuracy.

And some German states are switching to Touch Screen voting, allegedly to cope with their new local election system (re-destricting German Conservative style).
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shuffnew Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #130
152. Hope they are learning from the U.S. to demand audit trails
Hope if they go to touch screen or op-scan that they study hard the problem in the U.S. where the freedom to vote and be counted is crushed.

Avoid our suppliers and demand verifiable audit trails on ANY method of voting or any supplier of the the equipment and software BEFORE going live with it!
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Kellanved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #152
154. yes, a paper trail is mandatory
Systems without manual recount options are out of question - the laws are pretty strict on that.

But a manual recount is difficult; here that's one sample ballot for a small city; each voter has 81(sic!) votes. Up to far over hundred in bigger cities. (again, this wacko voting system is only for local elections in conservative states):

http://www.landkreiskassel.de/politik/wahlen/Stimm-om.p... (might not load on the first try).
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ecoalex Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
80. This guy, and the Dem leadership
Are a bunch of clowns. I smell collusion between the Dem leadership and the repugs, the only answer. Of course they were told about it, the FIX WAS IN and McCauliffe allowed it to happen. I agree, if these clowns are that inept, then we deserve what we got. Throw the whole bunch out, this country and the world deserves better.Kerry/Edwards integrity is in the toilet.
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
82. Gee - Yale law school associate dean uses the "F" word -
and some of you guys are upset???

If I wanted to expose fraud without being labeled a "conspiracy theorist," what better way to get the F-word out to the MSM? And if I wanted it to be a credible statement, who better than this person?

"We weren't trained to look for fraud."
That statement all by itself is huge.

Remember that we live in our own little world here, and presume that the rest of the world knows what we do. But the truth of the matter is, that most people DON'T know what BBV is, and most probably don't realize that it might be possible to overturn this election.
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #82
87. Thank you for that observation! Jumps right out, don't it?!
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txindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #82
88. Thank you, RevCheesehead. That was my take on it, too.
I think the dean is being disingenuous. As in, "Fraud? My goodness. We didn't know there might be fraud involved! This is the GOP. The pResident. Surely, that isn't possible! Oh, my, we MUST look into this further to help clear any lingering suspicions. Those poor men have reputations we must protect."

:evilgrin:
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #82
102. And look at this graf
My client conceded the race on the belief that the results were clear. The results are anything but clear, however, and American democratic legitimacy requires an honest reappraisal of the events in Florida and around the country.

Pretty strong stuff.
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mirandapriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #82
103. That is What I Thought Too
I am Not Sure why people are so upset. I look at this article as a GOOD THING
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shuffnew Donating Member (306 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
85. Assistant Dean of Yale - and he didn't know about fraud?
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 11:47 AM by shuffnew
This sounds very strange (IMHO). I don't see how anyone could not have been alerted to 'fraud' with all of the facts on the table from the 2000 election, the 2002 elections, etc.

How could this Ian Solomon (or any Kerry campaign lawyers) not have been aware of it BEFORE going to Florida or any other state? I simply do not believe this.

And I am sick of hearing any copouts of we need to address this in the future! Tell us what to do for the future? What about today and yesterday? This is a known problem with even Diebold lawsuits prior to the 2004 election. This 'future' stuff has to STOP! IT'S NOW NOW NOW!!!

This is a very strange article where Ian Solomon pretends(?) this never crossed his mind before going to Florida? If what he writes is true, then he should have been ashamed of his own ignorance to even write it!
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
93. THIS GUY IS A MORON
Edited on Tue Nov-16-04 12:01 PM by TomClash
He couldn't personally check for fraud in the voting machines because under Florida law out of state attorneys are not allowed in the polling stations on election day - only pre-certified election observers are.

What would computer specialists have looked for if they were inside the polling stations anyway? Assuming there was fraud, were they going to open up the machines and repair the glitches and fraudulent tabulations on the spot? Election law in every state prohibits tampering with the machines during the voting so that wasn't going to happen.

After the polls closed, in most precincts Democratic observers stayed at the polling places to review the count. What else were they supposed to do?

You could have brought 1,000,000 Skinners to the polling stations across the nation on election night and it would not have done any good - you would need a court order to inspect the machines and for that you would need evidence of fraud. If the evidnece of fraud was contained in the machines and only a computer scientist could detect it - by definition you would have no evidence and thus no order.

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RageKage Donating Member (51 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #93
107. follow your logic.


IF: Kerry and Co. were aware of the danger of BBV... (safe assumption)

and: They wanted to try to stop it (have to believe this is true)

and: you are right, they couldn't have done anything at the polls to stop it (I agree)

Then: They would have to go about the whole thing from an entirely different angle. One that was below the radar. - Even below the the "blogos-dar"

Lawyers, especially trial lawyers, are concerned with one thing, above all else: EVIDENCE. - the raw fuel of all legal actions.

Remember, Kerry was a prosecuter. And don't forget his role in Iran Contra. This is a man who who knows first hand, that massive government conspiracies do not just occur under tinfoil hats.
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txindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #107
115. Excellent
Great first post! You've laid it out very clearly. Don't be surprised if some aren't able (or willing) to follow the logic, though. One of my favorite comments goes along these lines, "Kerry can't be working under the rader or the media would know about it (or we'd know about it)." :eyes: Oh, yeah, that would certainly qualify as "under the radar." Sure. :crazy:

;)

Welcome to DU, RageKage! :hi:
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #107
122. It's very possible
I hope that's true. I have a very hard time believing they didn't plan for this contingency and I'm very sick and tired of hearing that all the Dem consultants and lawyers are fools - I know that's not true.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 05:43 PM
Response to Reply #107
127. Logic says that.....but at every turn we've seen the Bushies outmaneuver
the DNC/DLC...so many of us DO have legit. questions about our "Party."

How could they have let Gore be trashed by the Media back in the days when it wasn't "Pravda" (as in the Cold War Days)? How did they allow Daschle to lead the Senate to confirm every hugely questionable appointment Bush wanted to his Administration coming off a very rancorous and contentious Selection? How did they allow the Mid-Term elections to go uncontested and failed to support Max Cleland and Cynthia McKinney in Ga. and other candidates.

There's good reason many of us here, have suspicions. We've been led down the garden path to smell roses and found weeds and foul smelling flowers, to believe in them anymore. And, Kerry's concession speech was like a General prepared to lead "pumped up with adrenolin troops into battle" and then calling it off at the last moment.

Either Kerry felt he had to sacrifice some of the troops and that the others would still be able to "hold back" without collapsing or going AWOL and he could "re-group" or he and his Campaign folks and DNC/DLC backers were going to concede another one. It was a dangerous gamble to take. I hope that he did take the gamble for many reasons, chiefly that it would be beating the Repugs at their own game.

But I see both sides of DU'ers arguments here. And I, myself, have a foot in both camps. :shrug:

I say we fund the recounts (those of us who still have some coins left) and see how it plays out. But, I'm not looking for support from what I do see as many "spineless" Democrats in the Party to give me a helping hand. I'll be happy to take credit if it works out...though that WE the GRASSROOTS did what our Party couldn't. That's the way it's supposed to work in America. Bottom up and not Top Down...
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #93
121. Excellent post...good read but your Subject Line doesn't reflect what you
say. The guy isn't a Moron...he says exactly what you say. And, your point is good because no one was allowed to look inside the machines. We have to wait for a recount of suspect precincts and then check the machine that made the recount, if the recount shows an error that could only be machine made.

But, if a recount shows that the only "suspect" is the machine it has to be impounded so that "evidence" can be acquired (from inside the machine.) Without the machine and evidence of code tampering then observation alone isn't enough.

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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #121
123. You're right
My subject line was out of anger. Still, he denigrates what we did in FLA - the article reads as though getting out the vote in minority communities was meaningless because "no one was inside checking the machines." Typical Yale Professor. It pisses me off.
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Cugel the Clever Donating Member (36 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 01:32 PM
Response to Original message
106. What a "Suprise"
Well golly gee, who could have imagined that the Bushies and their pals in the vote machine industry wouldn't count all the votes. Or that Diebold and other "pioneer$" wouldn't inflate (R) votes with a few subtle lines of code.
Kerry and his circle of Dem wizards could never have predicted and prepared a strategy for that, now could they? It was just so unexpected!
Every true red-blooded citizen knows that the votes all got counted because W said so. Even that ugly Kerry dude said it, and he made a promise to see it was a fair count. So, end of story. Right?
This could be the death of democracy. Bring on the bread and circus.
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Broken Acorn Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #106
113. In Kerry's defense...
I find it VERY unusual that we haven't heard or seen from Kerry, Edwards, Dean, Michael Moore, etc. pretty much since 11/3.

Joe Trippi is going on Countdown/MSNBC very subtly arguing: "What is so wrong with counting all the votes?". Leading us to believe that is isn't over yet.

The Dems are either incredibly smart in going about this or completely incompetent. I would argue the former.

Let's just take a deep breath and wait for the NH recounts to begin. That will bring to light a lot of answers with the Op-Scan irregularities.
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ElementaryPenguin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:31 PM
Response to Original message
114. This is a ploy. Kerry's son knew about BBV - you think he doesn't?
C'mon, folks. There isn't anything WE know on the DU - that Kerry's camp doesn't know. Kerry's the kind of guy who leaves nothing to chance - and informed people have been seeing this computer fraud issue coming down from a mile away! Senator Bob Graham (a collegue of Kerry's) introduced a bill in the Senate similar to Rush Holt's in the House - banning the paperless audit trail e-voting! HE KNOWS!
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Bread and Circus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 02:59 PM
Response to Original message
118. Ian Solomon is associate dean at the Yale Law School.
Damn...sounds like a nutty internet conspiracy theorist to me!!!

/end sarcasm
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DURHAM D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
124. DU.com should have been required reading for all division
heads in the Kerry campaign. They all get an F. I think Elizabeth Edwards was the only one at the top or near the top who probably got it but she was too busy making campaign appearances.

I am more angry right now than I have been since 2000.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #124
128. Lets hope Elizabeth is still here reading. It would make her feel good,
I think.
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Anakin Skywalker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 05:48 PM
Response to Original message
129. That's Bushit!
Didn't they expect fraud to occur at all? Come on! We are dealing with Shrub & Co. here and you thought they'd play clean?
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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
132. Idiots at the DNC REFUSE to listen to their ground troops...
...who have been shouting about this for years.

No more money or time tot he DNC from Dr Fate until they can OPEN THEIR GOD-DAMNED EARS.
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m berst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #132
139. worse than that
In the Clark campaign we watched the DNC not only shut their ears to the grass roots, but do everythiong they could to smash apart the grass roots and marginalize and disperse the grass roots groups.

The DNC was wrong and we were right, and that meant that we are not only losing the White House to the worst and least popular and most dangerous incumbent in our history, but we may lose democracy itself.

Yet STILL people are defending the leadership and waiting for signals from them as to what to do.
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Laura PourMeADrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
133. Hmmm "RageKage" Could it be.......
Carville ?? The ragin'cajun ????

Sounds like him. He even said "who who" - like he stutters sometimes when he talks
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rockedthevoteinMA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. that's so funny I thought so to - LOL n/t
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ColoradoDemocrat Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #134
135. Maybe they're waiting for US!
Ranting on the internet is NOT ENOUGH!

When's the rally?? We need a national day of protest!
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ColoradoDemocrat Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-16-04 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #134
136. Maybe they're waiting for US!!
We need a national day of protest!! Ranting on the internet is NOT ENOUGH!!
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Ronbrynaert Donating Member (222 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #136
143. What We Can Do
Write your congressmen, distribute links to organizations that are doing something across the internet, call and write to your local media outlets. There's plenty that can be done by all of us.

Why Are We Back In Iraq?
http://www.whyareweback.blogspot.com
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
148. Hell, we've only been screaming about it for THREE YEARS!!!
I simply can't accept this blinding stupidity.
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Incendiary1 Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 03:06 AM
Response to Original message
149. Fool Us Twice?
Okay, obviously we should not be where we are now, why ANYONE would ever agree to machines that can't be audited is way beyond me but the fact remains, we are where we are now. The question is can we do anything about it now?

Who has custody to these machines now and are they under lock and key? And if they're not locked down, why? Because if these machines were pre-programmed to yield fraudulent results and if those who did it have ANY inkling they may be looked into they would certainly try to remove any software that would provide evidence of that.

It would seem to me that all these lawyers should be going to court to have all these machines impounded so that they can be scanned for hidden software or any signs of tampering. Is anyone doing this?

As others have pointed out the manufacturers of these machines all seem to be republicans and it seems that every instance of computer 'glitches' we've seen so far goes in favor of Bush. If it were merely computer error it be would random, equally likely to go either way.

The thing that bothers me about all this is we've seen the character of the Republicans many times, look at election 2000, why would the Democrats ever take their word on the 'honor' system? They have no HONOR.
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spooked Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 07:18 AM
Response to Original message
150. PEOPLE, THIS ARTICLE IS OUR CUE FROM THE KERRY CAMP!
I'm SURE Kerry gave his approval to publish this article. This is Kerry TELLING US THAT HE WOULD NEVER HAVE CONCEDED THE RACE HAD HE BEEN AWARE OF THE FRAUD (Even though everyone in the know suspected there would be fraud, you can't exactly go around making allegations before the election!)

THIS IS THE KERRY CAMP SPEAKING DIRECTLY TO US AND THE MEDIA, and the message is clear: DEMAND A RECOUNT!!!



"My client conceded the race on the belief that the results were clear. The results are anything but clear, however, and American democratic legitimacy requires an honest reappraisal of the events in Florida and around the country.

Three members of Congress already have requested that the GAO conduct an investigation into the troubling reports of problems with voting machines.

The mainstream media must immediately realize that this issue rises above partisanship and demands attention.

The time is now for voters from all states that used electronic voting machines to request an audit of results and a manual recount of ballots if possible."
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Chiyo-chichi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
151. "Kerry Lawyer says they weren't trained to LOOK FOR FRAUD!"
Just like the troops weren't trained to look for DMX.

But they shoulda known it was there.
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unpossibles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-17-04 11:57 AM
Response to Original message
153. perhaps I give too much credit
but going with the theory that it's a stealth campaign, of course they are going to claim that not only are they not looking for fraud, but that they don't know how to. Much like the eye rolling' in the other article, it does no good to bluff if you don't keep your poker face.

Again, maybe I am wrong and giving them too much credit, but I see hope here.
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jayde Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
155. Confused
When I read the article, I saw it as that the lawyers were not trained to look for fraud. I've been reading responses that stated that they weren't aware of the possibility? Maybe I missed something, but doesn't that seem to be a big assumption to take that not being trained to look for it equals not being aware of it? I know the information was out there, but what could they really do about it until it happened on the scale that it did? Is it also possible that not every lawyer was informed of the possibility in order to allow the GOP enough rope?

I agree that we need to get this information out there, but I don't think we need to place blame on the lawyers or on Kerry. They may have been well aware of it and were just waiting for this to happen so they could figuratively pounce on the prey. At least we can hope for that.
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Riceman1974 Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
156. Will someone please explain to me...
How Kerry will be inaugurated on Jan. 20?

Florida has already certified. That state is done. Kerry's only "chance" is Ohio. But how will Kerry make up the 133,000 vote deficit in Ohio?

Here are the facts:

1. Provisional ballots - There are 155,000 prov. ballots. We're already reading reports that 10%-40% of these ballots are being thrown out, depending on the county. You have to assume at least 20% of these will be thrown out, taking that 155,000 down to 125,000. And these ballots are spread pretty evenly throughout the state (meaning, the prov. ballots are roughly equal to 1%-2% of the total vote per county).

2. Spoiled ballots - There are 92,000 "spoiled" ballots, meaning there is no clear vote for President. These are the infamous punch-card ballots. These will be counted only during the recount, which will happen AFTER the vote is certified by Ohio on Dec. 6. Contrary to Florida, Ohio has very strict standards for what counts as a vote with these ballots. The "chad" must be separated (perforated?)in 2 places for it to count. 1 chad or "dimples" will not count. Based on these rules, you have to assume at least 10% of these will be thrown out, taking that 92,000 down to 83,000.

125,000 + 83,000 = 208,000
Bush margin = 133,000 (136,000 minus the 3,000 mistake votes he got in that one county)

By my math, Kerry needs to take 82.2% of these prov. and spoiled ballots to win (171,000 to 37,000 = 134,000 plus for Kerry), assuming even the recount is finished before Dec. 13.

How in the hell is Kerry gonna take 82% of these, when these votes are spread throughout the state, a state that basically went 50-50?
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ahyums Donating Member (348 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #156
157. can someone please explain to me why you've felt the need to repeat
the exact same post in three different threads now. Seems a little transparent don't you think?
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txindy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-18-04 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #157
158. Oh, no kidding
Transparent is hardly the word. ;)
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Incendiary1 Donating Member (7 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-19-04 03:50 AM
Response to Reply #156
160. Truth Decay in the USA
For a 'Democrat' you sure seem ITCHY to want to witness the re-coronation of King George II on January 20th. At first glance, your references to administrative deadlines and raw numbers seems to be based on solid ground.

However the certification of Florida or any other state is based on the assumption that the numbers are valid ones. We don't know that. There are many reasons to question these numbers, especially the numbers produced using certain types of voting machines. There is no deadline on truth. It is IMPERATIVE for the American people to know that their vote counts, for the good of the country and the preservation of any semblance of democracy.

The United States Supreme Court failed this country in 2000 by placing deadlines and other comparatively trivial issues above the only REALLY important matter here, the will of the people, seeing to it that ALL valid votes count. In an election this is the one TRUTH that should supersede all else. De liberation de Florida por banana republicans in 2000, and we've all witnessed the ensuing catastrophes, one by one, of the first Bush administration, and our people continue to suffer for that.

IF fraud was committed using paperless voting machines in Florida or anywhere else it's important that that truth see the light of day. If it doesn't this won't be the end of this but the beginning... the beginning of the end of The United States of America as we knew it before the year 2000.
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