ATTENTION DU: Not all Obama-supporters are buying into this "voter fraud" BS

[Bicoastal]

I, for one, am willing to believe that the polls and pundits were just plain wrong.

I, for one, am able to accept the fact that many factors came together at the last minute in Hillary's favor.

I, for one, am content to follow the example of my candidate, who quietly, graciously, and eloquently conceded defeat yesterday evening.

If you support Obama, and feel the same way about the garbage that's been spewed lately on DU, garbage that can only hurt, not help, our candidate--please recommend this thread!

Thank you.

[Nailzberg]

1. Nailzberg added as Co-Sponsor

[BlackVelvet04]

2. Thanks for this post.....

I'm an Edwards first and Hillary second supporter but if Barak wins the nomination I will support him. I don't have to dislike the other candidates to like Edwards.

[adarling]

3. good post

because this is getting ridiculous. so if hillary wins, its because america did not want to vote a black man in the office, and if obama wins its because america doesn't want a woman. umm, i think the media is totally trying to spin this into something big to cover the fact that they were incredibly stupid and are embarrassed that AMERICA fooled their skanky asses. thats right SKANKY!! I just can't believe that Pat Buchanan makes more sense than a georgetown professor right now.

[EFerrari]

4. So, you're all for faith based voting results?

And voters raising legit concerns about those results are "spewing garbage"?

That's some democracy you have going there.

[Ichingcarpenter]

8. DU has gone to the dogs of war.

I miss it when it questioned authority and the system.
And we had a great voice here that died on election fraud.



'You know the world is going crazy when the best rapper
is a white guy, the best golfer is a black guy,
the tallest guy in the NBA is Chinese,
the Swiss hold the America’s Cup,
France is accusing the U.S. of arrogance,
Germany doesn’t want to go to war,'

and the three most powerful men in America are named ‘Bush’, ‘Dick’, and ‘Colon.’ Need I say more?”

chris Rock.

[EFerrari]

13. Not unless you're in a walk in clinic.

:)

[stillcool]

18. I'm reading that book...

I just picked it up at the library..never heard of it before..what a great read! But...you must not be referring to that...if you were you would not be so complacent about the unique to our country..unreliable, unverifiable, vote tabulations. I guess you were okey-dokey with Kerry's ceding the 2004 election, and the slew of irregularities in the 2006 election. Are you still questioning the 'system'...and if so..which one is that?

[Ichingcarpenter]

30. No, I wasn't happy at all with that and almost left the nation that year.

I've been here longer than many and remember the late great Andy who got me involved
in election reform. I stayed and fought and worked in the 2006 elections locally and state wide for change.


BTW .....I should have got out in 2004 since real estate and the dollar has tanked......LOL


I think the system, the nation and yes, even the democratic party is corrupted by power.
I really got a head's up, when the FISA bill went through in August which was brought up
by our Party for a vote, when they knew they didn't have the vote to stop it.

They purposely brought it to the floor, I knew right then and there through my usual optimism that
we are being sold down the river by our family of democrats.


On edit the reference to the dogs of war, is a reference to the non analytical, canine attack discussions I find at DU now.

ANTONY:
Blood and destruction shall be so in use
And dreadful objects so familiar
That mothers shall but smile when they behold
Their infants quarter'd with the hands of war;
All pity choked with custom of fell deeds:
And Caesar's spirit, ranging for revenge,
With Ate by his side come hot from hell,
Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice
Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war;
That this foul deed shall smell above the earth
With carrion men, groaning for burial.

[stillcool]

37. wow....I totally fucked up...

I don't know how I could have mis-read your post so badly. Egad, my apologies for being so rude... I remember Andy, and all that he did...That election sparked a huge learning experience for me...I can't imagine how many people his passion for this issue touched. I can't believe that it's starting all over...as if it's for the first time.

Your quote is very apt...and I recognize myself in there...I know better, but I still get sucked in...and play the game. I know things are different here now...but sometimes I think it's just me. I've learned so much, but many of my teachers have moved on, or only post here occasionally. I don't know where to go when I graduate from DU..or if I ever will.

[Ichingcarpenter]

43. Many were moved 'out' vs 'on'

There are still some of best writers and submitters at DU as compared to other sites
but they are growing far and few between these days and getting ostracized through 'character assassination' or by overwhelming red 'dog' dlc democrats' howling like the dogs of war without real discussion.


I see blatant postings of accusing anyone that disagrees with the Clintons as being misogynistic in their discussions of questioning history and authority, which I consider funny considers Bill's history of getting it on with whatever he feels like.

This place ratings has gone down and no longer even competes on the internet
with Little Green Footballs or Free Republic who use to be competitors in blogg power.

I was disappointed in this site when the owners came out with the black president and woman president OP, and finally someone had to write a John Edwards OP on the same lines, because
they excluded him just like the media did.......They could have done a trial lawyer thing. LOL
and never mind an elf like Dennis who is the real hero bringing the ring of power to the Mt. of Doom with his truth.

But it is still a good site, if you read between the lines and don't get caught up in the hype
of the typical loud posters that never get voted to the front page vs. the posters that you should pay attention to you should do fine.

[MADem]

15. New Hampshire voters vote on PAPER ballots.

Some are counted by machine, some by hand.

But there's a paper trail. Everyone who voted filled out a piece of paper. You go ask the NH SecState if you can go count 'em up if you're sweating the results, eh?

During this year’s presidential primaries, roughly one-third of all votes will be cast on touch-screen machines.

(New Hampshire voters are not in this group; they will vote on paper ballots, some of which are counted in optical scanners.)

The same ratio is expected to hold when Americans choose their president in the fall.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/06/magazine/06Vote-t.html?pagewanted=all

[XOKCowboy]

17. Try to get a recount on those paper ballots...

You and I can't do it. NH citizens can't ask for a recount. Only the candidates can request a recount and it won't be cheap either in money or how the press will view it.

Hey if you want to trust electronic voting machines, great. With all that has happened in 2000 and 2004, my trust level is very low.

[MADem]

26. Gee, wonder why none of them are asking for redress? Maybe because it's

only the tinfoil wackjobs that are seeing a problem? Perhaps the results were in accord with their internal polling, and that's why they managed to accept the results without any carping, and to be more gracious than some of their so-called supporters.

The point is, there's PAPER there. You don't cheat when there's PAPER there. It's too easy to get caught.

The other point is, if there WERE a problem, and since there's PAPER there, it could be EASILY proved, and a candidate would be a fucking FOOL not to demand a recount if he felt that it would reveal fraud.


And demanding that recount, and proving that fraud, would have the result of knocking the disgraced winner out of the race COMPLETELY.

See--NO DOWNSIDE. Unless, of course, there IS no fraud, in which case the complainer would look like a total ass.

But then, some people will ascribe nefariousness even when there plainly is none; the Pajama Media crowd is having a blast spreading this shit around, and they don't need to work very hard, because they've got acolytes on the "loony left" to do their work for them--a whole army of Heckuva Job Brownies eagerly posting bullshit, simply because they "hate Hillary" (another theme that those Pajama types managed to develop and sell to the feeble minded sexists with very little effort at all).

The thing is, though, these fraud touters only make their favored candidate look bad with the whining and squawking.

A bunch of conspiracy theorists flailing about insisting that there's fraud when EVEN their candidate isn't averring it, well, that makes the candidate look as though he's supported by people who are a little flaky, to put it politely.

[HughMoran]

34. Good posts here...

to bad common sense has no bearing here...

[Ichingcarpenter]

33. They don't care to respond to you because it's all good

for the winner.

[mod mom]

24. a paper trail is only as good as the audit that accompanies it.

Sheesh...you've got partisan corporations that use proprietary source code on voting machines have been proven to be unreliable, inaccurate and unsecure. If you want to roll over and play dead fine, but some of us care about the integrity of the outcomes.

[MADem]

31. If there were fraud, and there's those paper ballots right there, it would BENEFIT

the candidate who had been cheated to demand a recount.

If fraud were discovered, the "winner" would have to pack her bags and slink out of town. She'd be toast.


There is a piece of PAPER with a mark on it for every NH voter. A piece of paper that could be counted by HAND in a recount. Fuck the "proprietary source code"--there's a fucking PAPER TRAIL in NH. You mark your ballot with your pencil, you feed the paper into the machine, it counts it, and the paper stays in the hopper, ready to be counted by HAND if need be.

The reason no one has asked for a recount in NH is because the results of the election matched their own internal polling.

It's only the kooks here who can't, or won't, see that. And the reason they don't see it is because they have an irrational hatred of Clinton. They simply cannot discuss anything to do with her rationally or logically. They misrepresent her positions, they make disgusting assertions about her, and they act in an entirely un-Democratic fashion when she's the topic of conversation. It's all spitting and foaming at the mouth, and it's childish and tiresome, frankly. To say nothing of sexist in the extreme.

[mod mom]

45. I am not insinuating that IF there was fraud, that Clinton had anything to do with it.

I would question LHS and in particular John Silvestro. My guess would be that the GOP would want to control the outcome. Diebold is a partisan corporation so my guess is the guy who gets the contract covering 4 eastern states would also be a partisan.

You're slanderous remarks insinuating that those who pose the possible fraud scenario have an irrational hatred of Clinton is WRONG and neglects the work of many here on the issue of election integrity. You definitely are showing your true colors-and it ain't pretty.

This issue would have been brought up regardless of candidate knowing the differences in polls(including Clinton's own internal polling), the attendance of rallies and the fact that Diebold has been shown to be inaccurate and subject to tampering. Spend some time reading over at the ER forum. You just might learn something.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

49. If the GOP wanted to control the outcome...

...then WHY did McCain win? Surely the'd rather have had their boy Romney, eh?

[MADem]

51. But if there were actual fraud, it would benefit Obama and Edwards to reveal it

Even if Clinton were pure as the driven snow, and had no role in it, the stink would stick to her. It would be down to a two man race. It would BENEFIT them to knock her out. So why don't they?

The reason no one is squawking is because there was no fraud. And there's no fraud because there's a paper ballot in the hopper for every single NH voter available to count by hand if need be. If a recount would show fraud, then the opposing candidates are fucking WUSSES if they don't take what is 'rightfully' theirs.

But they know the truth--the truth is, the NH voters voted for Clinton. And some people here just can't STAND that.

My remarks aren't slanderous. If Obama had won this NH contest, we wouldn't see ONE fucking "cheat, cheat!!!" thread. And you know it.

What's 'transparent' here is the agenda of the anti-Clintonistas. It's pretty dispicable, too.

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. Ok let me try to explain this once gain

this is NOT about Barack Obama, or Hillary Clinton... for god-sakes... NEITHER is my first choice

This is about transparency in elections.

Why is this so hard for folks to get it through their skulls I don't have a clue... but this country is a banana republic and I guess proud of it.

Oh and never mind that we have quite the history since at least 2000 of voter fraud on a major scale.

[mod mom]

10. Thank you nadinbrzezinski! well said!

What's wrong in questioning the integrity of the system. Democracy isn't a spectator sport.

[Bonobo]

16. Thank you.

[BlackVelvet04]

20. Well what good is bitchin' here doing?

Contact the candidates and ask for the recount.

[nadinbrzezinski]

36. You may want to review the history of Cuyahooga CO

many folks HERE ON DU, laughed it up.

You do know some folks directly involved in that hanky panky are in jail, don't you?

The problem is not that we are bitching about it... but that people are still downplaying the possibility of fraud (when their candidate does well mind you) even after six years of a history of this shit going on.

[sandnsea]

39. There's lots of real election problems

Lots of opportunities to organize in every state to get real reform. Lots of local elections to look at with real machine malfunctions to point to. It hurts Obama to use this election, when most people aren't doing anything in their home states.

[TwilightGardener]

6. I've been saying the same thing since yesterday--

Obama was defeated fair and square. He will take it like the good man that he is and move on.

[tabatha]

7. Mike Malloy

is spending his whole program ... so far ... on the lack of reliability of voting machines.

He interviewed Brad Friedman at the beginning.

Get his podcast to hear the whole thing.

By the way, exit poll data is NEVER raw data (which is unavailable to the public) - it is always massaged.

While I don't know if the NH results were manipulated, this is something that needs to be watched because it affects ALL candidates.

I actually think that it was good for Obama to come in second. It will improve his campaign.

[Hutzpa]

9. That is a thump statement

'concern trolling'

[Bicoastal]

12. What the hell does that mean?

Have I done something wrong?

[LostinVA]

23. I don't think you have -- I think it's a gracious and sincere OP

[CoffeeCat]

11. I don't believe that there was fraud...

...but I have empathy with those who do!

We all understand how compromised those voting machines are. It leaves room for
doubt and suspicion.

I know it's a very unsettling topic, and there is no resolution.

However, I do not believe that people who want to process this loss are being irrational
because they want to discuss the discrepancies between all of the polls and the final outcome.

It's natural to discuss the problems with the machines. I don't think we should be so harsh
and judgmental.

I do not think that fraud happened, due to a confluence of factors that make sense--when you look
at the election 20/20. However, maybe not everyone is at the same place that you and I are.

[ORDagnabbit]

14. the mantra must be transparent and verifiable elections for all

not just some....

its nice that you put your faith in machine tabulation.

I do not

[doc03]

19. Same here, I get tired of hearing someone

cheated every time an election doesn't go their way. If I was sure the elections were stolen I would be out in the streets raising hell about it, not whining. Are these people alleging that Hillary and Edwards supporters some how rigged the voting machines? For God sakes if they are so worried about vote fraud get a job as a poll worker and witness the process. Our election board is begging for poll workers, they consolidated many of our precincts the last couple years because they can't get enough people to work the polls.

[LostinVA]

21. Thank you very much

As I've said a few times today, Obama is a good man, and he deserves better than this.

Congrats on your IA win.

[emilyg]

22. Good post.

[blogslut]

25. I concur

:hi:

[nevergiveup]

27. I love Obama and I don't buy the fraud bit

We lost this one fair and square and it is time to move on. Fortunately our candidate is ignoring this protest. I think there are many legitimate cases of voter fraud but I don't believe last night was one of them.

[alcibiades_mystery]

28. I'm with you 100%

Some people need a hobby.

[regnaD kciN]

29. Actually, I think very few Obama supporters believe that...

I'd say the general consensus was that Obama got a considerable bump from his Iowa victory, but it subsided enough by Tuesday that he was only able to shave a not-insubstantial 5-10% off HRC's previous lead in the state, but not overcome all of it.

Besides, I don't think the Usual Suspects would waste their time and energy on rigging a Democratic primary, instead of saving it for November when it would really count.

[Pirate Smile]

32. I don't believe it either and I'm not reading the threads on it.

Sometimes there are big flare-ups on DU and I miss the whole thing because I don't read the threads.

No issue for me so why bother diving into the crap.

[Leopolds Ghost]

35. One of the mods said all 04-era Fraud discussion is now banished to Election Reform... whabout Andy?

Of course the idea is ridiculous in NH, where race-based polling
was clearly in evidence, as Tweety, Larry Sbato and several other
commentators with personal experience researching the issue MADE CLEAR.

Fraud had nothing to do with it, people lied to the pollsters
(as one of Tweety's guests from NH proudly admitted, she said that
they shouldn't have to tell pollsters the truth of how they voted).

The pollsters themselves told Tweety the evidence was there that
people lied to exit pollers, just as they did in almost EVERY
black man running for a major office in the past 25 years.

Of course, white women voting "in gender solidarity" with a white
woman is considered perfectly acceptable, even when "you go girl"
is used to justify policies that are anti-poor in their own communities.

How many white women hang out with black women in their
neighborhood in states like NH? How many get together
to bitch and moan when a poor black family moves into
the only house on the block they want torn down (because
it's an "eyesore" and the owner is a "slumlord" and the
lone poor family would "surely be happier living someplace else")?

How come everyone said Obama should hide his wife, that
"she's not who the public should be looking at, he is"?

To quote the commentators who had "experience in NH anmd Iowa".

[sandnsea]

38. Agreed, n/t

[milkyway]

40. This Obama supporter and firm believer in fixed elections has no doubt NH was clean last night.

The average of all polls had Obama +8 on Monday, but their was a large, late movement to Hilllary (per Zogby's Monday sample). The "tearing up" incident and subsequent media pig pile enhanced this movement toward Hillary. Several other factors could have each moved the totals a point or two, as excellently explained by Chris Bowers at openleft.com http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3156 The exit polls had the race a tossup. There wasn't a great difference between the exit polls and the vote count.

A co-worker asked me, "what happened to Obama last night?" I told him nothing, he did everything he should have done. "What happened" happened to Hillary. Obama for one night was almost a bystander as events swirled around Hillary. We'll see if the factors that combined to give Hillary NH can carry her through to the nomination.

Congratulations to Hillary and her supporters on a memorable win. With three very strong candidates the Dems are going to give the people a nominating season for the ages. And we have the repugs to provide comic relief.

[Bright Eyes]

41. I smelled something fishy at first.

But I think Keith Olbermann did an excellent job explaining how the polls were so wrong.

What's really troubling is that we've become so used to elections being stolen or rigged in the past, we have no trust in the voting process. Making people think that their votes won't matter is just as bad as any rigging Diebold has done.

[libbygurl]

42. Oh, thanks for a voice of reason amid this conspiracy madness so rampant here today! nt

[fujiyama]

44. Allegations of fraud is intellectual laziness

Hillary won by a decent margin. She got women votes. And she busted her ass there for a long time. And at this point, I'm dead set against a Hillary nomination.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

47. "intellectual laziness"

is not doing your homework on the issue. You are accusing the wrong side of intellectual laziness.

[EFerrari]

53. Coming up with arbitrary narratives in the absence of fact

is active if not willful intellectual dishonesty.

[Bluerthanblue]

46. I'm a NH Obama supporter, and voter, and I don't

believe that there was any real vote manipulation.

I wouldn't go so far as to label the questioning of the results as "bullshit"- but I don't personally think that any fraud was involved.

Back in Dec, polls had Hillary leading by double digits going into Iowa- but in the end, those polls were equally as wrong- Was that because of fraud? Kind of hard to manipulate the placement of human beings in a Caucus environment :crazy:-

Polls are tools to manipulate people- If we can learn anything- we should learn to remember that the media has as much power over our future as we allow it to have.- Don't believe everything you hear- if you do, you may end up feeling manipulated.

peace~
blu

(important to remember Obama didn't lose here in N.H.- he got an equal # of delegates as Hillary- that is more like a 'draw'- in my opinion :hi: )

[Strelnikov_]

48. Agree

There was too much flux to accurately poll.

[Scriptor Ignotus]

50. agreed - eom

[Laelth]

52. Wow! Nobody's talking about voter fraud.

The other party does that. We tend to talk about election fraud ... you know ... that's what might have happened in NH.

:hi:

-Laelth

[organik]

54. For the last time, it's ELECTION FRAUD not "voter fraud"

Voter fraud is the term the repubs use to disenfranchise voters via voter ID laws, etc. Election Fraud swings elections, voter fraud if it happens (rarely at best) swings a couple votes.

And, please do not just accept any results the corporate MSM and corporate election systems throw out. The day we stop asking questions is the day democracy dies. I'm afraid we're already there.

How many excuses will you make when the presidential election is stolen again?

Evangelicals? Exit Polls Wrong? Minority "voter fraud"? Dead people voting? etc. etc. etc.

The truth is (and has been) staring you in the face for a long time now - corporate america "elects" its candidate, no matter what the voters think.