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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 09:06 AM
Original message
From the "We Count Conference" - Cleveland Ohio - Election Fraud
I'll be posting updates from the

"We Count Conference" Cleveland Ohio.

The morning program:

The program includes Blackwell Acountability - State Sen. Marc Dan, Dem Candidate for Ohio A.G.

Greg Coleridge Corporitizatoin of Elections NE Ohio American Friends Service Committee

Ron Baiman PhD Exit Polls in Ohio ElectionArchive.Org, Univ. of Il -

Richard Hayes Phillips PhD - Analysis of Ohio Precincts - See "Declaration of Richard Hayes Phillips" at www.election fraud news. Original and ongoing statistician for the Ohio 2004 election.

Later today Bob Fertik, Harvey Wasserman, Jonathan Simon, Paul Lehto, Bob Koehler & Mark Crispin Miller.

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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. OH Democratic Attorney Gen. Candidate - Investigate Electoin Fraud
State Senator Dann is running for Ohio A.G. He pointed out that Ohio Bill 3 gives the A.G. direct prosecutorial authority on prosecuting election fraud.

"If such a crime was committed in Ohio (referring to election fraud in 2004) will know what happened. There's a cop on the beat."

He said that he needed to win big when asked if he thought that the election might be rigged.

Lets get this guy elected Dann for Ohio

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diva77 Donating Member (999 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #1
37. but in CA, I think the AG
has to defend elections officials; not citizens who charge election fraud

Are you sure about what this guy can do?
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texpatriot2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
2. K & R for Transparent Democracy nm
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 09:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. Ron Baiman - Univ. of IL - Exit Polls in Ohio
Refers to ESI report "No Smoking Gun" - and shows ESI data graphed that shows smoking gun in Ohio 2004.

49 Precincts - where exit polls conducted. Shows non random distribution of votes in Kerry and Bush precincts indicating vote shifting.

Looking at the data from the exit polls confirms 1 in 187 Billion.

Emails from Mitofsky - Baiman: ESI and UMich/Roper discrepancies. ICPSR was a subset of "the real data" - actual raw data with precinct vote tallies linked to exit poll vote tallies. Never released. ESI got more than anyone else, Baiman et all went.

Baiman asked that data be released.

Kerry exit poll results - actually reduced from margins of 6% and 9% percent Kerry over Bush in Ohio to 3% to conform to election results.

7% of precincts have discrepancy between number of overs and officially certified number of votes.

Ron's blog is|Actinomics].

Cleremont County examined. The county that gave Jean Schmidt her last minute victory over Paul Hackett in SW Ohio's special Congressional election. County resisted but Bob Fitrakis pushed through and got him in. Random ballot examination - pull ballot and told it's a "duplicate ballot" for the original. Some times necessary due to defacement, very occasional. There was NO matching procedure to find original ballots. Ron not allowed to handle ballots so he had to duplicate them. Asked for duplicates review. Very few ballots available.

Ron showed how Precinct 35 in Cleremont, typical of many others, had 44 votes more than those who signed the ballot book/were verified as having voted. That's about 9% and it's typical of what he and Richard Hayes Phillips found.

Ron called for paper ballots, period, follow up on charges of election fraud, and hand counting of paper ballots.

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Fly by night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 09:39 AM
Response to Original message
4. Couldn't make it to Ohio, so here's the note I sent. Wish I were there.
Edited on Sat Sep-30-06 09:43 AM by Fly by night
Please keep posting updates from the conference -- this could not be happening at a better time. Since my (figurative) leg irons don't reach all the way to Ohio, here's a letter I sent with other Orange State activists to the friends of free, fair and verifiable elections attending the conference. The BIG question posed in my letter: where do we go from here?

Carrying a message to Ohio for me

Oh how I wish I were stowing away with you folks as you head to Ohio. This weekend's meeting will be very important and is on a direct line toward free election victory or long-overdue revolution from our own humble gathering at Jefferson Street Missionary Baptist Church almost eighteen months ago. Every time that Americans who cherish our voting rights and want to "get 'er done" right for once can get together, there is power in that patriotic presence.

Think about it -- when we held the National Election Reform Conference in Nashville in the early spring of 2005, the media was still publishing "just get over it" stories -- now our concerns are aired (and aired accurately) every night on CNN and appear regularly in the New York Times and Washington Post. Back then, voting rights activists could not put faces with the names of their compatriots around the country -- now we know each other on sight and communicate daily (if not hourly) to share information and strategy. Back then, Richard Hays Phillips' research work had only begun to surface -- now it has stopped Ohio's 2004 ballots from being destroyed so that they can finally be counted properly for the first time. Back then, New Mexico's leaders had actively blocked a recount of the 2004 election in that state -- now those same political leaders have sponsored and passed a "paper ballot" law that is being praised around the country. Back then, Bob Koehler and Brad Friedman were known by too few folk -- now their screams about stolen elections are anything but silent, their influence immeasurable.

Hell, back then, Clint Curtis was still a Republican, albeit an honest and patriotic one. Now Clint's running as a Democratic candidate for Congress, and he is going to beat that election-stealing ass, that Congressman from Diebold, Tom Feeney, like a cheap drum.

Can this weekend in Ohio continue to "up the ante", continue to energize and mobilize Americans to take our country back (to not coin a phrase), give the now awakened-corporate media even more meat to throw to the lions that Americans become when their knowledge of the threats to our democracy is deep and their indignation is well-deserved? I certainly hope so.

And I also hope that time to discuss and coalesce around successful solutions is given in Ohio. Because our next steps to protect America (as we thought we knew it) may not be as polite as more education and more media coverage and more networking and yet another #@$!&*! web-site. It may involve shutting the Republi-Nazi machine down by taking to the streets, and refusing to leave. It worked in the Ukraine, it might still work in Mexico, it may have to work in the US of A if our country has a future. If that happens, it will truly be a fight for our freedoms -- but one that will be more worth fighting than any foreign entanglement this country has been in for the past half-century.

And we may need to look back that half-century for the best model of what to do. The Battle of Athens (TN) means so much to me now, when returning WWII veterans refused to accept a stolen election in their county, when they broke into their National Guard barracks and -- armed with confiscated rifles and dynamite -- stormed the corrupt sheriff's offices and, in a day-long shootout, rescued their ballot boxes. And prevailed.

I know that many among us don't want to consider that prospect and, unfortunately, I think that our civility and our honoring of the traditions that Martin Luther King and Gandhi left us (before they each were silenced by the bullet) is what our enemies are counting on. Well, if they think that we are going to take their treason lying down forever, they better hide and watch.

So ask yourself this: If Kenneth Blackwell "wins" the Ohio governor's race (when he is behind by 20 points now), what will we do? When the 2004 Ohio votes are finally counted and we ALL know that Kerry won, what will we do? When Rush Holt and Barbara Boxer and Stephanie Tubbs-Jones and Dennis Kucinich lose their next races in a "surprise last-minute mobilization" of non-existent phantom voters, what will we do? What will you do?

I know what I will be prepared to do. And if any of the rest of us waiver at that moment, they will be backing up, from our own rapturous rendezvous with history. Here's hoping that we will all be allowed to sit that deadly dance out. In part, what you folks accomplish (and decide) in Ohio will decide that. Oh how I wish I were in Ohio this weekend. But then again, a big piece of my heart will be there, carried on the wind by you two.

We can change the world, rearrange the world.
After all, someone has to do it.
And who better than us, 'cause
We are the ones we have been waiting for.

My love (and deep respect) to all.

Fly by night (Bernie Ellis: Federal Bureau of Prisons # 16502-075)
[email protected]

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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
5. Greg Coleridge - Corporitization of Elections
Greg is a political organizer and activist with the American Friends Committee.

His short presentation was quite something. He talked about "the enclosure" movement in England where the ruling class and economic powers "enclosed public lands." He went over the resistance to that by "the levelers" and "the diggers." Those movements were crushed but moved to America in the form of early settlers.

He pointed out that there is a new "enclosure" movement in the USA in the form of the corporitization of elections. The corporate funded elections, conventions, and operations represent part of the enclosure of the public through subordination of their input to the influence of money.

He had a great line which went something like this: "When ever people come together to govern themselves this is referred to as a "crisis in democracy".

Do we have a crisis brewing as we begin to throw the election crooks out? What will they do to "manage" the crisis. Or is the "crisis" just an excuse for the overturn of unfavorable elections (think Mexico).
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. "Diggers" and "Leveleers" - and the English Civil War
Edited on Sat Sep-30-06 10:32 AM by autorank
Link for Coleridge analyusis of Ohio corporate influence:">The Diggers (True Levelers)">The Levelers

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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
7. Candidaate for Governor Panel - Dem, Greens (Fitrakis), LIbertarians
Bob Fitrakis, Green Candidate - PhD, reporter, investigative reporter (11 awards), professor, lawyer.

Bob referred to himself as reality based

"If they can't steal elections, they can't conduct an endless war."

You don't end slavery, you don't get social security without third party movements pushing things. Referred Eugene V. Debs and Norman thomas.

Will pull Ohio Guard from Iraq since it's an illegal .

State law enforcement officials will not cooperate with illegal federal search and seizure.

Proposed living wage, universal health care

"It shouldn't matter ... if our children if their parents on a mansion or a shack."

Q/A: Endorsed a return to paper ballots. Working with an NGO to file an appeal to the United Nations on unfair election practices in Ohio.

Asked about the Columbus Dispatch expertise on in political polling. Then 2005 the special measures election occurred. The Dispatch poll (highly respected) had results for issues 2-3 that were 30% off-the Republican position exactly reversed Mike Dawson with Sen. DeWine - encouraged the Dispatch and other papers not to look into discrepancies in polling. He sees machines getting tossed after 2006 because of the "train wreck" but he fears the wreck will cost the Democrats congress and thus John Conyers, D, MI, the chairmanship of the House Judiciary Committee.

Lee Fisher, former Ohio Attorney General, represented Democrat Ted Strickland.

Fisher recounted how he was involved in a very close election for A.G. where he won by 1,234 votes. There was an election contest and he was months into his term before the final resolution (his victory was upheld).

He said we should focus on 2006 as though there is no tomorrow. 2008 won't matter if we lose in 2006.

He was strong on explaining the importance understanding and working the election process in a fair way.

He said Blackwell was "the single most dangerous demagogue in the history of Ohio" (that covers a lot of territory).

In the Q/A period:

Lee Fisher - exit polling is only avenue to match results with reality. Focus for Strickland campaign is to get fair, well trained poll workers in place as the best means to monitor.

"Blackwell, actively, cynically, partisan suppressed the vote in doubt in my mind and Ted Stricland's mind that ... there was outright fraud and suppression in 20o4." He wouldn't go as far as to call 2004 Ohio stolen but was very strong on the presence of election fraud...he used the "f" word "fraud"

"Blackwell spent his entire career ... dividing people by appealing to fear. Part of a larger strategy of state and national republican party, making it more difficult to vote advantages Republican candidates...there is no question to that (in Ohio) and nationally. He has a moral, self righteous certainty that allows him to impose his views on others."

The Libertarian Party candidate, Bill Pierce, and an independent candidate were exceptionally knowledgeable about election issues. The Libertarian Candidate pointed out that their challenge to Ohio ballot access resulted in a court requirement that it be rewritten.
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In Truth We Trust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
8. Hand Counted Paper Ballots NOW! ...or Fascism Forever.
K&R AutoRank. Thanks as always!
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
9. Richard Hayes Phillips - Amazing Analysis - Revolutionary Action
Edited on Sat Sep-30-06 11:24 AM by autorank
Phillips is a researcher, historian, and quantitative analyst who has worked on Ohio election problems from 2004 on. These are all his remarks either quoted or paraphrased.


Election analysis: Richard Hayes Phillips

"Six years ago in Florida our country was reintroduced to the experience of a stolen Presidential election...two years ago in Ohio, another presidential election was stolen, this time with greater sophistication, the margin of victory appeared to large to be attributed to fraud. On the very next day the vanquished candidate capitulated. Those who questioned results...marginalized as spread sheet wielding conspiracy theorists...lawyers who brought the challenge (to Ohio were threatened with jail. During the next few months a patriotic band of patriots have (gathered the evidence) to prove that Ohio (was stolen)."

Filings against 11 counties in Federal District Court in Columbus.
Sweeping court order protecting the ballots, which were to be destroyed.

Toledo - selective purging.

Cincinnati,Akron, Dayton Cleveland, Warren and Mansfield - ballots pre punched for third party candidates - guaranteeing spoiled ballots. These ballots were destroyed - a violation of record retention laws, a felony."

Main findings reported: (see Declaration of Richard Hayes Phillips)

Here or">Here

Special Ohio methods - withholding voting machines in Columbus.

Voters in Cleveland and Akron allowed to take ballots to wrong precinct.

Ballots were shifted form precinct to precinct in Warren County causing Kerry to lose votes - explains down ticket advantage for obscure candidates.

Delaware, Butler, Miami county - 100's of consecutive ballots for G.W. Bush - indicating fake ballot substitution.

Cleremont County - white stickers over Kerry selection, replacing it with Bush.

Butler and Auglais Counties - machines reprogrammed without official sanction.

Diebold tabulators - 2 sets of results, one of which counts absentee ballots twice.

Audit ballot books is all we can do. We won't know if ballots are counted directly.

Electronic signature books will make any meaningful audit impossible.

Paper trails on machines don't show that the count was accurate.

REMEDY: paper ballots, counted by hand, in full view, no matter how long it takes, like most democracies...Why? Because our elections are rigged."

On why he knows so much about corruption in Ohio:

I'm the one who looked at all the evidence. I can do 4th grade math. I can smell a rat.

Discussed "virtual representation" concept used by King George referring to the American Colonists. Today, "virtual elections in a virtual democracy."

One would think purged voters would bear a relationship with the percent of those not voting...20% purged in Cayahoga and other Democratic localities while 1/2 that many were purged in Republican localities.

Democratic localities show purged voter totals much more in line with Gore vote in 2000.

Lucas 30-40% of voters challenged in precincts that went 85% for Kerry. 95% or rejected provisional ballots rejected in Hamilton County were from Cincinnati, a Democratic area.

1920 double punched ballots in Ohio - six county sample. "Ballot rotation" - the order in which the candidates names on the ballot must rotate from precinct to precinct. Five candidates, five rotations.

Rotation 1: Rotation 2:

By far, double punched ballots were in 2nd rotation precincts. The double punched ballots were in obscure locations on punch cards in heavily Kerry precincts. People don't examine ballots to see if they're double punched. Five people noticed this, however. Onc Cleveland woman noticed this, requested a new ballot and got another double punched ballot.


Action Plan:

Connected threats to planet, peace and civil liberties with threats to our democracy.

Few Colonists thought we could prevail against the British Empire. But the British empire stretched them too thin. Colonists only power was through "committees of correspondence" of boycotts and withholding taxes. "In this time of crisis, we must learn from their experience." An armed uprising WILL NOT WORK. He pointed out that our government is over extended in a crazy scheme that doesn't even work to try to establish an empire.

The US Government is vulnerable to a tax revolt: simplify live, live on less, stop preaching to the choir on "the heavily monitored interenet," win the battle one person at a time by "getting to know our neighbors," millions of us displaying righteous anger on a sustained basis. Make country ungovernable without our consent of the governed.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. "(s)pread sheet wielding conspiracy theorists..."
Of which the first and greatest, our Sam Adams/Tom Paine of election fraud, is our own TIA.

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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 12:05 AM
Response to Reply #9
34. That's what I'm talking about
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
10. My Reaction so Far --
This is a very strong set of speakers. Bob Fitrakis and Lee Fisher are experienced, knowledgable, and persuasive, especially Bob. Baiman seemed to pack a great deal into a short period of time. Hayes Phillips spoke the longest and offered the most detail. I'd recommend that his declaration be read by anybody interested in this topic. Ths links are in the post on his presentation above or on the front page here He's going to really shake things up here with the retention of ballots win in court.

Cleveland is one of the few major American cities I had not visited. It's an interesting place and the people here are very friendly with a good sense of humor.

Here are a couple of good things about Cleveland:

Great art museum (although it's closed for major renovation (I am not amused):

Professional Baseball:
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Fly by night Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Autorank, how many people are at the conference, from how many states?
Is there any way of knowing?

Thanks for keeping us posted on the speakers. You're right -- they are a strong and knowledgeable group.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Hi Fly...several hundred. Mostly Ohio but speakers from all over.
Edited on Sat Sep-30-06 12:54 PM by autorank
The presentations are excelelnt, very high level.

Nancy Tobi from Dem. for NH and Paul Lehto are doing a workship now.

More when they're done.
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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #10
at least this weekend!!!

K & R # 5

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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
14. Sorry I can't be there. Glad you are getting a chance to meet all my
buddies. :) Thanks for the update.
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 01:19 PM
Response to Original message
15. Wow, wonderful lineup. I would love to see this on cspan. Is anybody
recording mp3s and posting them somewhere? K & R
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 02:16 PM
Response to Original message
17. Nancy Tobi-EAC as PONZI Scheme; Paul Lehto - High Level Strategy
Edited on Sat Sep-30-06 02:27 PM by autorank

Nancy Tobi

The Election Assistance Commission PONZI scheme

EAC Ponzi Scheme Promising results to investors while you take more and more money with no real delivery everits called fraud.

2005 EAC takes millions to get certified labs. Contracts with NIST to do so.

No guidelines.

2006 EAC gets more money for the same project. The logical goal would be election 2006 but that doesnt happen.

2006- EAC does not deliver until December - a month after the 2006 elections.

Why nothing

1) the market will never catch up with the standards, the business model fails.

2) the standards will never be attainable for this industry

3) the products themselves will always be modified, thereby nullifying the certification.

Voluntary Voting Systems Guidelines

1. ballot designs and positions, the acceptable error rate 1 in 10 million ballot positions. Maximum acceptable error in test is 1 in 500 thousand ballot positions. Testing to this standard is impossible.

2. 10% ballot errors in Cuyahoga County elections

3. Software world modifications are common. Therefore, once modified the system loses certification so what's the point.

Pal Lehto tierra tiburon

The executive branch assures its own re-election.

Standards only enforced when undesirable competitors show up. Selective enforcement.

Confidence is critical to our system, according election officials.
Its important after the fact. But confidence before the fact is a time of vulnerability for citizens youre not looking hard enough to stay safe.

Is the entire system being set up to failby 2008? If the election fails in 2008, there is no valid election; therefore there is a great argument to not change power.

Avoid reinforcing this strategy by pointing to this or that machine is invalid. That ties into the strategy.

We are in an untenable position criticize machines and feed the invalid election argument or fail to do so and participate in elections that are essentially rigged.

History of secret ballot a response to problems like intimidation and violence when voice voting took place. However, the use of the secret ballot is the basis for election fraud. Secrecy of ballot means that they are un auditable.

Residual votes (over votes plus under votes): a fraud method to cancel out votes. Used on paper based technologies.

Computer based voting, DREs have lower residual vote rate. They are subject to a different type of fraud.

Its a fraud to test the machines tests before and the day after election day to prove a fair election is inherently fraudulent. Computers respond to commands. What were the commands on election day.

Its a fraud to use the machines theyre just counting programs. Why wont they let people see the proprietary code?

Certification of elections is a fraud they announce results from machine counts where they never even inspect ballots (optical scans) or cant in the case of touch screens.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. Great Rexource on Hand Counting Paper Ballots - from those who do!!

Nancy Tobi just made a great point. Hand counted paper ballots are great but if you get it in your state, you need to know that the right infrastructure is in place to make it work. NH can efficientlyi count 4000 vote precincts. Here is the download from her site that explans it all: Were counting votes and so can you!.

They have ballots with 75 items on them, which are hand ounted. This is a valuable document.

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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. More Land Shark on the Law
Before mo Paul, special mention is due for Akron attorney Warren Mendenhall
Attorney Mendehnall has been filing "good government" law suits against public corruption and winning consistently for several years now. It's the type of thing we want lawyers doing.

Paul discussed legal issues as part of the panel.

Disability rights are the vehicle to jam DRE's down our throats expanding on this theme - Cramdown, Stripdown, Lockdown Democracy In The USA. Everybody favors proper voting systems for disabled Americans but HAVA uses this need as a wedge.

He referred to the "safe harbor language" in HAVA.

DRE's "infect" a state or local voting system initially and HAVA comes behind it and causes the infection to spread is a point Lehto made.

Recounts as a Strategy

This is the most difficult strategy in ensuring fair elections. You need to act very quickly and with real force. The superior tactic is to have a seris of steps arranged before the election.

"Weaponizing the Constitution" - It had been a "shield" but now it's a sword, as in the case of Hastert's rapid swearing in of Brian Bilbray in CA's 50th special election for congress. Two articles illustrating this
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Kip Humphrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #17
21. Wishing I were there...Are they handing out my buttons?
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #17
36. Important points.
Glad to see this remark.
Why nothing

1) the market will never catch up with the standards, the business model fails.

2) the standards will never be attainable for this industry

3) the products themselves will always be modified, thereby nullifying the certification.

And LandShark...

Standards only enforced when undesirable competitors show up. Selective enforcement.

Guess what...

But the VVSG contains a giant loophole that allows any of the standards therein to be waived by the EAC itself or by its predecessor, the National Association of State Election Directors (NASED).2


2 Election Assistance Commission, 2002 Voting Systems Standards/Guidelines, Volume II, Appendix B.5, Qualification Test Results and Recommendation, "ny uncorrected deficiency that does not involve the loss or corruption of voting data shall not necessarily be cause for rejection. Deficiencies of this type may include failure to fully achieve the levels of performance specified in Volume I, Sections 3 and 4 of the Standards , or failure to fully implement formal programs for qualify assurance and configuration management described in Volume I, Sections 7 and 8."


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stellanoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
20. oooooooooooooo
Edited on Sat Sep-30-06 03:22 PM by stellanoir
. . .to be a pigeon on that statue.

Have a blast you guys.

I'll coerce that pigeon to telepath back to me regarding all that is said.

Or is it a pigeon or is that. . .could it be. . .could it be. . . autorank . . . ;)

Spandex becomes you more than feathers though really.

Or maybe that pigeon has been hired by the NSA. e-gads I'm confused.

Or as a collegue's client said when he saw scar tissue on her heart line, which he'd never seen before. . ."Hey some days you're the pigeon and other days you're the statue."

I hadn't heard that one before.

Now guess who is sleep deprived. . .? Keep it up guys.

K & R'd of course.

Aaaaand don't forget to have fun, damn it !!!

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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 05:35 PM
Response to Original message
22. Evenoing Program
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. HR 6200- Hand counted PAPER Ballots at the Precinct HR 6200 D.Kucinich
TI'm at the We Count 2006 Conference in Cleveland. After a break for dinner, we resumed with an address by Dennis Kucinish, D, OH. He made the remarks below and then announced that he's introduced H.R. 6200, a bill to guarantee that the 2006 election will be ocnducted on "hand counted, paper ballots, counted and posted at the precinct level" with the process open to all to observe. This was a real stunner. There is some legislation out there on stop gap measures but this is the whole 9 yards, the ultimate in election intgrity - Machines are Gone under this legislation...GONE.

Cleveland OH 9/30/06

ANNOUNCEMENT: "Introduced, 20 co-sponsors HR 6200 -paper ballots, hand counted, results posted at precinct. This bill came from this movement.

The exception to the rule proves there's a new rule
"One of the most important meetings going on in this state maybe the country." Referring to "We Count 2006"

Two issues I hear about constantly:

- denial of access to health care 50 million Americans without health care...
Conyers-Kucinich Bill
- equal interest - "people are deeply concerned about the election process."

"You're holding the light of democracy for the whole country."

"our ability to have control over our institutions" is at risk when the procedures of elections are

REferring to Ohio's disastrous 2004 election he said "We understand why there is such great concern"

Without free and fair elections, "everything is at risk...a cause that's so important, it's a measure of the courage of the people" who call attention to the problem.

"We have a mission to make sure that elections are on the level."

"There are lingering questions about the 2004 election and there ought to be."

"Even verified voter paper trails are not an adequate solution to safeguarding our elections."

"Distrust is a form of disenfranchisement....electoin integrity ... voters have a right to know that the vote cast of for the candidate that they selected.

ANNOUNCEMENT: "Introduced, 20 co-sponsors HR 6200 -paper ballots, hand counted, results posted at precinct. This bill came from this movement.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Hot Damn!
Good to see this, Auto, so good to see, thanks.

The importance of what the movement is all about sometimes escapes our attention, but nothing has a greater bearing on our freedom. We must have confidence in elections and we must be governed with our consent.

Anything less is a sellout and will result in loss of the freedoms we now barely hang on too.

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Hot Damn is correct! Here's a thread on HR 6200 introduced 9/27/06
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. You too Land Shark... good going, thanks
Ya know, I posted about 5 threads here over the years saying that we needed congress to take up a paper ballot law..... I think I got, in total, about ten replies, so its nice to see such a bill has now been introduced. Too bad I can't say I had anything to do with it.....

We are with yall in Ohio. Kick some ass!
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
30. Harvey Wasserman The History of Stolen Elections

Harvey Wasserman is a professor of history and a frequent co-author with Bob Fitrakis on election integrity. He gave a fascinating history lesson on election fraud in presidential elections.

Wasserman cleared up the myths surrounding the 1960 Kennedy election. Illinois may have been stolen for Kennedy but even if Nixon won Illinois, he had a huge Electoral College deficit and Illinois would not have node a difference. Remember this one when people try to relativize fraud after the Republicans are exposed for their conniving on and after election day 2006.

Stolen Presidential Elections

1800 Jefferson.

The Electoral College allowed slave owners to vote their slaves at 3/5ths of a vote. Guaranteed congressional representation based on whites, citizens, but also on the basis of the 3/5ths slaves. John Adams would have defeated Jefferson without the 3/5ths bonus.

Every president was a slave owner or beholden to slave holders.

1824 Jackson over John Quincy Adams

Adams lost the popular vote to Andrew Jackson. Adams made a deal with Henry Clay of KY to get Clays electoral votes. Adams became president despite a huge popular vote

Tilden, Democrat Hayes, Republican 1876

Tilden beat Hayes handily in the popular vote and electoral vote. We were still in the Reconstruction period, post Civil War, with Federal Troops stationed in the south. The former Confederate states had become five military districts. This was the worlds first multi racial government. It worked. The Democratic Party (the Republicans of that time) and the Klan worked against reconstruction.

Tilden won the election in both popular and electoral votes. However a five month Constitutional crisis ensued during which a new civil war was threatened. A special commission ultimately ruled on electoral votes in a way that resulted in a Hayes victory.

Hayes was given the Presidency in return for the Republican support to pull troops out and end Reconstruction. The results: blacks could no longer vote, the KKK came back as a huge force, racism prevailedand we are where we are today, largely because of that.

The 2004 election challenge came out of the 1876 experience after which the challenge by one member of the House and one Senator would invoke a debate.

1888 Cleveland - Harrison

Grover Cleveland defeats Harrison

1896 McKinley Bryan (William Jennings)

Mark Hannah, multimillionaire who introduced large sums into campaigns, supports McKinley.

1896, revolt at the Democratic Convention, Bryan grabs the nomination. The Democratic Party was dominated by big money at the time and this set off a corporate class versus working/farming class. Bryan was a spectacular speaker, the first populist

You know we can hire half working class to kill the other half of the working classWere never going to let that lunatic in the White House.

Hannah stuffed ballot boxes all over America. The Republicans were proud of it their side was right.

No more important event than the victory of McKinley. He was an imperialist starting the Spanish American War Cuba, Philippines, Puerto Rico. Enormous negative impact on our history cemented corporate domination, foreign adventures.

1916 & 1976 are only elections that were 1 state victories. But until Bush, no presidential elections were stolen in this century.

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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Jonathan Simon, Election Defense Alliance

Simon is an historic figure. He's the analyst who captured the CNN delivery of the 2004 exit polls. There was some mistake at Edison Mitofsky that resulted in the release of the first three iterations of the polls. Kerry was winning in these national exit poll results. The results were not intended for public viewing so a controversy ensued which was the basis for the claims that the 2004 election was stolen. Simon is not working as a key member of the Election Defense Alliance.

2006 Simon says the fix is in. The Republicans will pull every dirty trick in the book to win.

You have freedom until the minute you dont

Monumental tasks ahead of us, he states.

Simon referenced rumors of the contingency presidency: circumstances under which the 2008 elections would be called off.

We need to rise up, not only to get the government to take notice; we need to rise up to see each other, to know that were here.

HR 550 to provide a false solution is to take a step back. Problems continues trend to federalize elections.

To expect this system, a fascist takeover of the country, to change is totally unrealistic.

Exit polling viable means of assessing the legitimacy

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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. Bob Koehler Chicago Tribune Syndicate

Bob Koehler

Started with a passage from the NYTs editorial calling the Voter ID legislation, Koehler addressed the shortcomings of the press, aka the MSM.

He complimented the voting rights advocates gathered but lamented that it must be like the 1930s instead of the 1960s for the civil rights movement. Vote fraud is not reviled yet, there is not a natural

MSM claims the 2004 was honest because of their failure to report on problems at that time. Koehler put the Ohio media on the spot for missing election fraud. The Cleveland Plain Dealer fails to write anything about the story but then claimed it had when RFK Jrs article came out in Rolling Stone over the summer.

Koehler was both humorous and moving as he recounted the failings of the corporate media in this area.
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 06:49 PM
Response to Original message
24. knew we can count on you
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
The Diebold Congress ain't gonna rescue us from Diebold. Well meaning efforts, good for education, but they've been too busy thinking up ways to let Junior torture more people. And again, I ask: WHAT IS THE PLAN?

We may have only a slim window of opportunity to restore transparent elections--while power of election systems still resides at the state/local level, where ordinary people still have some influence.

Activists should be mobilizing for a MASSIVE Absentee Ballot PROTEST. FLOOD local/state election officials with MOUNTAINS of AB votes--show these election officials up for the corrupt fools they are--and FORCE reform NOW.

If enough people do it--if everyone who despises the Bush Junta--60% to 70% of the American people--votes by Absentee Ballot, the reign of these diabolical machines will be OVER! They cannot maintain a system that nobody will vote on!

A massive Absentee Ballot PROTEST is the only plan I know of for ACTION NOW. The governor of Maryland (a Repub) is recommending it. So is the Colorado Democratic Party. AB voting is on the increase everywhere (it's up to 50% in Los Angeles) because people DON'T TRUST THESE MACHINES! Let's DO it! Let's make it an overwhelming citizen "vote of no confidence" in Bushite corporate controlled SECRET vote tabulation!

This is the only way to save the '08 primaries and general election from SECRET corporate vote tabulation. We must revolt NOW! We must put our foot down NOW! We must refuse to vote on these machines NOW!

See my recent posts on the Absentee Ballot protest at
(What do you expect from the Diebold Congress?) (--including advice on safeguarding your AB vote--hand-deliver it!)
(Diebold is WHY Congress is so bad)
(Diebold 'smoking gun' in GA! Vote Absentee this fall!)



:patriot: :think: :woohoo: :think: :patriot:

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BillORightsMan Donating Member (921 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 02:35 AM
Response to Reply #28
38. Massive absentee voting: a conundrum
Having attended or peeked in to several workshops and speakers all weekend, I found myself having this conversation in the "Ohioans Doing Democracy" forum.

Much of the discussion revolved around HB3, which sets up so many trap doors for voter registration and ID requirements, it's an absolute maze (EX: Voter Registration mailings were supposed to go out First Class mail, but were marked Third Class mail and SAT at the post office for three days. If the mailing comes back, then it is RESENT, this time with a "please forward" marked on it. The trap door is the vigourous time-line that all this should happen, like 45 or 60 days BEFORE an election.)

The Voter hears a commercial on MSM radio/teevee by Jimmy DiMora (Cuyahoga Dem "leader"), SoS Ken Blackwell or some other politico and decides "I'm gonna do it! Exercise my RIGHT TO VOTE! YEAH!" and begins the process.

Now, if you vote ABSENTEE, you have to FIRST request an absentee ballot in writing. There are forms you need for this, but what's been discovered on several county BoE websites is that the forms offered for download are dated 2000 or other pre-HB3 date. There's a NEW one (post-HB3), so The Voter that downloads, fills out and MAILS the OLD 2000 form gets your request marked in the poll book as "requested an absentee ballot" (probably) but is rejected because the voter used the WRONG FORM. The BoE never sends The Voter an absentee ballot because it was rejected because it was the wrong form, so The Voter is like :wtf: and it's election day.

The Voter decides to go to the polling place The Voter always has (if it wasn't mysteriously MOVED :crazy:) and cast a ballot. "Oh," the poll worker says, "you requested an ABSENTEE BALLOT, so YOU MUST HAVE VOTED ALREADY" (huh they never line up the absentee REQUESTS to the absentee RECEIVED and CHANGE the poll book!) The Voter is offered a PROVISIONAL Ballot, which MAY or MAY NOT be counted (little help here: what was the spoilage rate of PROVISIONALS in OH in 2004? 20%?). Activists and citizens in Ohio are hereby encouraged to check EVERY SOURCE of Absentee Request forms at libraries, all 88 counties' web sites to check if the most current and correct form is available. The Ohio SoS site has Form No. 11-A Prescribed by Secretary of State (12-05) in pdf available HERE

Okay, let's say the correct form is submitted (probably by US Mail), the BoE marked the poll book correctly and mails out said Absentee Ballot. This is (or has been prior to HB3) a large envelope, containing a folded sheet with all the candidates and entire issue wording (each with a number), applicable for your SPECIFIC precinct (some precincts may have a ballot issue that only pertains to it, like a code variance for a liquor license at a gas station). Also, a punch card (post-HB3 probably an optical-scan ballot - fill in the circles with a BLACK PEN), a "secrecy" envelope to store The Voter's ballot, and a large RETURN envelope. (I always in the past put TWO stamps on it, because of weight the styrofoam backing used to punch the card and must be returned in the "secrecy" envelope - "check for 'chads' " was part of the instructions!) "Yeah!" The Voter exclaims, "I did MY ONE CIVIC DUTY for the year and VOTED!" runs to the mailbox and mails in The Ballot. So far so good, right? What happens if The Voter didn't get The Ballot until the Saturday before The Election on Tuesday and sticks The Ballot in the mailbox at the corner of the street that same day? Will it make it to the BoE in time? Hmmmmm.

Now, let's say The Voter's Ballot gets to the BoE on time. A poll worker opens the envelope (AFTER the polls have closed, RIGHT?) and looks at the top part of the ballot that has the sticker of The Voter's Name and precinct sticking out of the top of the "secrecy" envelope to check for the The Voter's name on the (supposedly SAME) voter roll book used for the Absentee Request form. "Huh!" says the BoE official, "This Voter is my kid's baseball coach! What a coincidence!" Then, perhaps, the BoE official may just take a peek to see how The Voter voted. Hmmmmm.

Next, the paper ballots are put in a pile to get ready to run through an optical scanner (Ohio uses predominantly DIEBOLD GEMS SCANNERS). We all remember the opti-scanners, right? The "Dean Demo", right? You know, the one where the scanners can be HACKED WITHOUT A TRACE days, weeks, MONTHS before an elections, right?

Sure, you say, at least it is a PAPER RECORD of The Voter. What if the BLACK PEN leaked a little and the optiscanner picked up an OVERVOTE? Whoops! REJECTED! And HB3 in Ohio makes a recountable race very expensive (now over $500,000) and if it's a FEDERAL ELECTION (think Brown-DeWine) HB3 has NO RECOUNT PROVISION and falls back on FEDERAL ELECTION LAWS.

So The Ohio Voter can follow an absentee ballot path like this. Or vote (predominently) on a Diebold DRE machine with VVPT (on thermal paper) with no meaningful audit trail.

Confused? Me too. All this may happen, provided you are still a REGISTERED VOTER. Check to make sure!

Solutions offered are "pick your poison". I can only recommend going TO your BoE with proper ID and documents, and submit your paper absentee ballot there in person (in Ohio thirty days prior to Election Day). And photograph or photpcopy your ballot before you turn it in! I'm open for any better suggestions!

IMHO, the absentee ballot is yet another scheme that will be used to misplace, lose, delay, disqualify ballots and otherwise disenfranchise valid qualified voters. AND if enough voters use this scheme there will be none of the long lines we experienced in Cuyahoga County (and as was reported in many precincts all over the country in 2004), hence no OBVIOUS POWERFUL VISUAL evidence of fraud but PLENTY OF OPPORTUNITIES for ballots to be unaccounted for through using the Post Office for chain-of-custody. Perhaps using registered mail? Whoops! An unintended POLL TAX!

Want to see Paper Ballots Hand Counted? Visit Nancy Tobi's Democracy For New Hampshire


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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
29. Thanks for this post, Autorank! I ate it up, read every word, followed
links, cheered you all on. I wish I could have been there! But I've been doing my part at DU, from my remote outpost--reminding people WHY we have a bunch of traitors and fascists in Congress. They, too, were (s)elected by Diebold/ES&S! A few would have been elected anyway. Most would not have been. And, above all, WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT!

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Kip Humphrey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-30-06 11:08 PM
Response to Original message
33. Wishing I were there...Thanks for the updates, Autorank & Land Shark!
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 12:20 AM
Response to Original message
35. Blackwell cannot afford a Dem Ohio AG.
His crimes will be brought to light.
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
39. SOS candidate Judge Jennifer Brunner is on-message in every respect
Candidates Brunner, Greg Eastman and Tim Kettler each did a presentation Friday night. That was followed by a roundtable discussion and questions.

Judge Brunner recalled her first hint of trouble when SOS Ken Blackwell was leading a ballot initiative in Ohio--while serving as Secretary of State (!). That is an obvious conflict of interest. Even if it was not illegal, Blackwell should not have been doing that on the basis of taste and ethics. That initiative never proceeded for other reasons.

Brunner saw what Blackwell was doing to affect the outcome of the 2004 general election and was disgusted. She has extensive experience in voting issues. Being a judge, though, it was improper for her to speak out publicly on the matter.

Brunner decided that she wanted to run for Secretary of State. Before she did that, she consulted with her family and described what an obligation and a disruption to their lives it would be. (Not to mention that she would have to leave a very good job as Common Pleas judge).

Brunner then cited more details of the obvious chicanery that Blackwell was engaging in and speared the lame arguments of the Ohio right-wingers who just labeled her as a "conspiracy theorist".

She also noted that the Ohio Secretaries of State for the last sixteen years were Bob Taft and Ken Blackwell, who only sought the office to gain name recognition and to use it as platform to run for governor. Those two men did nothing to improve processes in Secretary of State's office. There were obvious problems with voting methods and new problems to deal with and they did not address the problems.

Jennifer described what she would like to see in a voting machine. The electronic device would create an electronic record that would be the actual ballot. At the time of voting, a duplicate, machine-readable paper record would also be created. The voter could verify the paper record matched the view on the computer monitor and the voter's intent. Brunner has misgivings about a paper-only system because of the stories of staff in the Board of Elections office sneaking a "stubby pencil" in there while counting votes, marking up ballots and causing "overvotes", thus nullifying ballots that were for the opposition. Jennifer admitted that she is not a "computer person" and that there may be some problems with this scheme that have to be worked out.

I am very encouraged with what I saw in the Democratic candidate for Secretary of State. She would do quite well in editorial board meetings. There is no reason that all of Ohio's newspapers should not endorse her (save for the fact that the Cleveland Plain Dealer is Senator Voinovich's newsletter, and the Columbus Dispatch is the party newspaper of the Ohio GOP).

I am happy that Jennifer Brunner came to the forum of the leftist activists to let us know that she understands us and that she agrees with us.

With her victory in November, I would think that the Democratic Party, and all people of reason, would have a well-spoken advocate of what is really needed to make elections fair and accessible to all the citizens of the United States.
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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. What do you think her chances are?
The Senate polls seem to be swinging Democratic, and of course Blackwell seems to be toast - do you think the wave will take her too?
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. I heard that Brunner is ahead with a large number of undecideds
That was a few weeks ago.
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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. Great
I'm going to enjoy seeing Blackwell defeated for governor, but it would be the cherry on the cake to see a Democrat in his old job. Quite apart from the fact that it sounds like she'd be excellent at it.

Good luck!
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #43
47. New poll today -- Brunner:Hartman :: 35:32
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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. Well, it's all going the right way
let's hope that the undecideds vote a straight ticket.
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Awsi Dooger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-02-06 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #47
54. There's another poll that has it 36-28
That was about a week ago, a Dispatch poll:

I've been trying to follow some of the secretary of state races in swing states but it's frustrating with lack of polling and conflicting polling. Here in Nevada we had polls released at almost the same time, one showing the Democrat ahead by 9 and the other had the Republican leading by 12.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 08:21 AM
Response to Original message
42. Thanks autorank.
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freedomfries Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
44. kudos auto
for being there and for your great updates!
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
45. kick to the sky!!
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 10:42 AM
Response to Original message
46. Appreciate all the updates!
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
49. Dennis was the best but Mark Crispin Miller was the coolest...later tonigh
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 07:46 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. travel safely!
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-02-06 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #51
52. Here's my true travel story, well two...
Edited on Mon Oct-02-06 03:16 AM by autorank
Story # 1, fairly funny...

Story #2, I'm diverted from the PA turnpike, along with everyone else, because it's "closed" Southbound. PA sucks at highway administration. 3 out of 5 times I've taken this road in the past two years, this sort of thing happens. No signs, no nothing...I figure I'll take 79 South through Pittsburgh and hit the highway to Northern Virginia. An hour later, I don't remember much, I'm on 70 West in PA headed toward Ohio! I think, this is not right. So I get off the road and cross a bridge. I'm in the town where they made "The Mothman Prophecy" or one that looks just like it.:evilgrin:

Good Lord! I think, what is going on. I ended up having a great drive back through Cumberland and all that beautiful hill country but damn, PA sucks at running its roads.
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JimDandy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-02-06 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #52
55. Privatized roads. Don't you just love them?
This same time last year, we were stuck in a nightmare loop trying to leave the Harrisburg area to go east on the PA turnpike (from 283 to 76.) Those paying cash at the toll booth on 283 are forced to move over into the right-most pay lane. Immediately after paying, if you don't get out of that lane, you're forced into a loop that takes you off the turnpike! And the traffic was so heavy at rush hour it was impossible to move over.

This happened to us twice and each time the same toll booth operator made us pay again! The third time this happened, our driver, who was retired from the Corps of Engineers, stop at the booth and told the operator that the road was badly constructed and that there was no signage to alleviate the problem. And then he told her "we're going to park in the road if we have to until we can move over -- and that's what we did! It took us about 2 minutes of waiting and we backed the traffic up even worse, but we finally got in the lane we needed!
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Oct-03-06 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #52
56. maybe PA needs Ted Stevens

do your occasional stretching - will ya - take care of your back.
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jen4clark Donating Member (812 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-01-06 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
50. Bless you, autorank!!!
This thread is a keeper! K&R -- let's keep it going!!

BillORightsMan -- thank you for the aptly confusing description of Absentee Voting. Mark Crispin Miller, Dr. David Dill, and Senator Debra Bowen all confirm what you say about Absentee Ballots being ridiculously easy to commit fraud -- always have and always will -- and more so now that you add in the Tabulators counting the "valid" Absentee Ballots that actually make it to be counted.

~ ~
And BRAVO to Rep. Kucinich for introducing the bill for paper, hand counted ballots. This is something we ALL need to write our Reps to support!!! :applause:
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-02-06 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #50
53. Thanks, I could use it! n/t
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