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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 04:55 PM
Original message
LandShark retained for San Diego election struggle!
DU's own LandShark, attorney Paul Lehto, has just been retained using funds raised by the CA-50 Action Group, a significant portion of which was contributed by folks here at DU.

Additional information will be forthcoming, probably a press release by tonight.

Thanks, LandShark and DU!
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. Whew! For a minute there I read the headline as "reStRained".
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 04:57 PM by Pacifist Patriot
Can't imagine why I would think someone advocating for election review would be restrained by anyone, *cough*, GOP, *cough.*
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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Sometimes it's nice to be wrong ;-) EOM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Lehto v. Sequoia. . . .
Bored--

This is a great opportunity to rise from the gutter and keep our eyes on the prize--election integrity.

#: )

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. Deleted message
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #21
40. Yes, Roxanne!
Sounds like fun. . . albeit weird!
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Sorry, her sister
But that's OK. I've heard all about you.

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
17. Lehto was NOT the attorney on the case.
"Plaintiffs Wells and Lehto, as citizens and voters" were represented by GORDON EDMUNDS ELDER, PLLC, Randolf Gordon, attorney for Plaintiffs.

Snohomish County Council decided to get rid of Sequoia machines, but what the final outcome of the case?
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. LOL, FACTS just get in their way, don't they?
Let's see if I remember the outcome............the case was dismissed if I recall correctly.

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #17
22. Randy Gordon was a candidate for Congress in the 8th Cong Dist
though he bowed out not too long ago for a unified Democratic ticket. Randy I and work together closely on all aspects of the case. He is the attorney of record. It would be a lie though to say that I don't do any attorney work on the case. Randy is a top trial lawyer and it's good to have a somewhat more "outside" view of election issues -- more like a judge's perspective.

We won the case in federal court (it was removed to federal court by Sequoia). After that Snohomish County voted to get rid of the Sequoia DREs.

The county and Sequoia then moved to dismiss the case on various grounds, primarily arguing that the case was moot because the DREs were gone. We resisted, because we still wanted a refund for the county, and because the arguments could recur again, therefore making the case NOT moot.

Randy argued the motion In state court, and on decision on the motion the judge said she was favorable to a claim against trade secrets but thought on balance that she was obliged to dismiss it as moot and see what the Court of Appeals would say (it was obviously heading to the court of appeals no matter what, because the real issues in the case are not so much the facts but what the law is or should be regarding the issues pleaded). Presently, briefs will be filed in the Court of Appeals within 60 days. Because the Court did not specify in her order what the basis for her order was, we get to brief all of our issues, and should be able to make law/get a published case on many or all of the issues, which would be the best possible outcome, given that the DREs are already gone.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #22
31. Lessee....
Sohonomish was dismissed in WA. (I did have to laugh when you said about pleading the case not on what the law is, but what it "should be"!)

The Kentucky case was dismissed.

What's the third case?

Now there is Busby/Bilbray, about which you state you attitude is "If we lose, there will be other chances."
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #31
48. other attorneys knowing contests are tough don't won't to take it on
Please note my new signature below.

Democracy does not promise us freedom from controversy like (perhaps) some would like (given complaints made in other threads recently).

Nobody should expect a free ride.

Note that the requested TRANSPARENCY, DISCLOSURE to the PUBLIC, and OPPORTUNITY for REFUND for any considering themselves negatively affected were all made before a single post in this thread was made.

See my new automatic signature below.

Among the first people to know about this were those defending VTUSA and the First Lady of Choicepoint. (remarks made in posts in last 24-48 hours, responded to by my critics)

There will be more releases coming up.

There will be a big one on Scoop. More transparency.

There will be press releases here locally.

All along, bradblog has said refunds are available for any legit problems. If you donated boredtodeath, process your refund request if you don't have any wish to support this effort if I'm associated with it.

It is NOT improper for me to work in San Diego. TRANSPARENCY and DISCLOSURE have been provided for. And those are the things that have never been provided and probably never will be provided regarding VTUSA, Choicepoint and Curling, except unwillingly through DU threads. Forced transparency, if you will.

It's still early on, so if anyone has any recommendations regarding matters of actual or potential public interest that ought to be disclosed, please let me know by PM or otherwise.
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flyingobject Donating Member (324 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 07:09 AM
Response to Reply #17
79. Lehto was the plaintiff?
well, that inspires confidence.

Who is the local counsel and plaintiff?

Lets hope that the CA attorney is an election law attorney.

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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. You picked the wrong place to try to introduce that false memeEOM
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:22 PM
Original message
Really? False?
So you're saying his Kentucky loss isn't true?

You're saying your fundraising on DU isn't going to his retainer?

You're saying you and Brad Freidman didn't know this from the beginning?

Because, quite frankly, your credibility is shot around here.

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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
8. Maybe in your eyes, but not in the eyes of those of us who are really
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 05:28 PM by mod mom
working toward positive change in our election system. What have you done, besides disrupt and shoot off your mouth? I gladly donated and am thrilled to hear Paul has been retained! GO LANDSHARK! and thanks to Emlev!
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. There's one born every minute
That's why Bev Harris and Paul Lehto are still in business.

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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:18 PM
Response to Original message
50. Whos creds?
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
14. What's a memeEOM? n/t
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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. I was missing a space
BoredtoDeath is trying to give LandShark a new and undeserved nickname.
For a definition of "meme," see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme
EOM means end of message.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. the record should reflect that the following are true:
1. KY statutes say that the complaint or petition in an election contest may not be amended or made more definite for any reason.

2. The complaint or petition was filed pro se by the candidates in KY, because of a ten day statute of limitations, they had no counsel at the time, not even local counsel.

3. Before I was hired, and before I was able to help in the case, the statute expired, according to the judge, because the defendants weren't served on time. Local counsel was on the job at that time, however.

4. Nevertheless, because the DEFENDANTS included the CLERK THAT ACTUALLY PERFORMED THE SERVICE OF PROCESS, the defendants, in effect, arranged for their own defense, that they later argued and the judge accepted. Part of the delay was the clerk claiming that they only had 20 day summonses on hand and not the 7 day summons required for election contests, so they refused to serve for a while.

5. The judge was wrong, any way. (read the briefs) All defendants had actual notice as well, via numerous front page articles in the newspaper.

6. There was another election activist attorney present from another state that read the briefs as filed and knows the sequence of events here and would back up these facts.

7. We appealed today, and I spoke to the Corbin Times today on the filing of the appeal.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:34 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. Here's the truth: YOU LOST.
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 05:35 PM by Boredtodeath
Bwahahahahahahahaha.

on edit:
Now let me see........what was the date of that fundraiser.......right about the time this ruling was issued in Kentucky. Yep, there are several 'coincidences' going on around here.

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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
49. Boring
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. Yes, you're right. Losing is boring. But very dangerous.
You know, kinda like PA the last week.

Where the court decided paper ballots disenfranchise the blind. Really fucks up the case for voter verified paper ballots hand counted.

But, keep bringing these pathetic lawsuits which allow the voting machine companies to win over and over and over. Kinda like that California lawsuit where they admitted no wrongdoing and kept the machines counting votes.

These losses are piling up and case after case means we lose democracy one more time.

But cheer them on. Let Diebold win in court. Set precedent after precedent.

And people like Paul Lehto and Bev Harris walk away with the money while democracy is lost.

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #55
67. If I am ever able to put a single dollar into savings, I'll announce it
publicly here on DU. "walking away with the money" is highly misleading.

I'm going to go back to work now. This is work too, to the extent it is disclosure, but I think that's been accomplished. If in the course of occasional review it's determined that more disclosure is needed, we'll do that as well.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
78. Are you here in the interest of promoting election reform or destructing
the hard work of others. Please name one positive action you have done toward fair transparent and verifiable elections. Dare ya-show your true colors!
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #78
81. I'm here promoting the TRUTH about election reform
Not some fantasy.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #78
84. Actually boredtodeath and troubleinwinter have been screaming "foul play"
about CA-50 since it began. Way before Landshark was hired. I asked them a few weeks ago what exactly they have done for election protection, and no answer....
They are definitely not with us. Their reasons??????????? who knows. doubt they contributed any money. or help. just bitching and criticizing with some sort of self-righteousness, which comes from who knows where.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #84
103. Go read the thread again.
Edited on Tue Jul-25-06 11:03 PM by troubleinwinter
Where was I ever "screaming 'foul play'"? I asked questions. Notably, how I could send a donation to support the effort, without having to send via an organization that BBV is part & parcel of.

I wanted to send a donation to the CA-50 org. directly, not through a BBV-connected organization. I asked for a mailing address. To this date, none has been provided.

It happens that I want to avoid anything to do with BBV, due to the issues surrounding the 990 non-filing and nonpayment of payroll taxes, state non-registering, etc., and Bev's claim of receiving $23,000 from Randi's show when we have SEEN actual documentary evidence that $176,0000 was raised in 5 hours.

In that thread, some other questions surfaced, like who are the Board of Directors of Velvet Revolution? The site states "Our Board is diverse, experienced and strong." I asked who they are. It seems a pretty bland question to me, but is "screaming" to you. You posted that VR is a tax-exempt organization. VR states on the site "We pledge to spend the money wisely and to account for how the money was spent". I don't argue this in the least. I just am looking for some transparency from a tax exempt organization, after the fiasco of BBV.

You said on 5/14 that the organizers "will be able to respond with more time on Monday." That would have been on 7/17. Today is 7/25. I have not pursued it, assuming people are working hard on the effort. But no attempt has been made to tell me who VR Board of Directors are (your org working under their exempt status), or where one might send a direct contribution for CA-50 effort.

I would think that answering these questions would be something the organization would be pleased to do, in order to exhibit transparency to donors when soliciting money.
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #103
110. I did answer all of the above in a personal email to you.
And no, CA-50 has nothing to do with BBV, only that both are eleciton protection groups. CA-50 is a group of san diegans. (+ one or two from LA and northern cal) It is only and specifically a group of people working together to get the votes counted correctly in the june 6th san diego election. We do not accept the results of the elction because it was conducted illegally. the group may stay together after this effort, but as of this moment, it is a group to deal specifically with this issue.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #110
111. No, none of them.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #3
13. Well I hope he wins this case.
I love the guy, but he gets really grouchy when he loses!

It might be a good idea for...

...Greg Palast

to investigate this San Diego thing too.

I think he might find some "cutouts" there working for Diebold!


Now THAT would be a story Lois!


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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. K&R
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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
16. For the record,
The first I heard of LandShark possibly getting involved in the San Diego situation was this weekend.
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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:10 PM
Response to Original message
18. Because it bears repeating:


And good luck.

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. I hear the Brits love irony. I hope I got the right house, above. ; )
My first contact on this case was this past Friday, on Saturday there was a conference call with Judy H. and Mimi Kennedy of the Progressive Democrats of America.
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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #19
28. Yep, getting the right house is important.
In case it helps, the legal battles of the shark are recounted here:

http://www.headington.org.uk/history/misc/shark.htm

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #18
51. LMAO! nt
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:35 PM
Response to Original message
23. Best of luck, LandShark!
:thumbsup:
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Kelvin Mace Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
24. One moment please.
Did Mr. Lehto disclose that the money he was soliciting from DUers would go to pay his own retainer?
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Of course not. Nor did Brad. Nor did ANY of the fundraisers
I wonder if they disclosed that to DU Admins?

And I have 2 questions remaining:

1. Did Ms. Curling to that cause and if so, is Lehto going to quit?

2. Doesn't getting paid mean it's not 'activism?'
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #25
32. I'd like to address your second question.
I'm afraid I cannot enter into any other part of this discussion because I know absolutely zero about the specific situation.

But I can offer an opinion on "Doesn't getting paid mean it's not 'activism?"

I don't consider compensation a defining characteristic of activism. Sometimes I speak gratis and other times I receive an honorarium. Just because I'm being paid does not mean my actions are not contributing to progressive activism. I still have to pay off my school loans and help put food on my family's table.

I understand that others might not agree with me, but while there may be a connotation of unpaid work it's not in the denotation. Activism is a policy of taking direct and militant action to achieve a political or social goal. There is nothing within the definition that says one cannot engage in activism within the context of a profession.

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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. Sorry, but Lehto's recent attacks about MONEY make this
unbelievably hypocritical.

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #33
62. The recent controversy was about transparency more than anything else
Transparency is being practiced here (see my new automatic signature). It was not being practiced back there (and still isn't) with that other recent controversy.
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Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 06:41 AM
Response to Reply #33
77. As I said, I'm not addressing the specific situation.
Your second comment came across as a general statement and I answered it as such. I am not in a position to form any sort of opinion about Lehto. I cannot speak to whether Lehto's participation ceases to be activism when he accepts a retainer. I can say that I do not believe activism, by definition, must be unpaid.
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emlev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #24
26. That was disinformation
LandShark was not raising money on DU for the San Diego situation. I posted the request for funds on behalf of a forming organization that is now called the CA-50 Action Group. At the time we were in negotiations with a different attorney, who may also be brought in. LandShark/Lehto had nothing to do with this situation at that time, either as a fundraiser or as an attorney.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. So you say. And your credibility is zero.
And, quite frankly, LandShark was absolutely bull dogging those threads.

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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
85. Lies. Emlev's credibility is quite excellent in the election protection
community. And Landshark was not the first attorney contacted. He was not a part of it at all. nor of the fundraising. I can vouch for the truthfulness of what EMlev says.
As for you, exactly how much money have you given to the "evil fundraisers"?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. That is how I remember it
I do recall that there was an attack on Brad at the time. Surely those so interested will find the threads and see if LS was fund raising, or not, that would be quite appropriate for them to do so.

Otherwise the flatulence presented is bound for such fate as most gas passings. And they stink, eh?
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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #26
44. but was it not on one of the threads that the attorney in question was on
vacation??

as i have asked on another thread..does anyone have links to those threads??

fly
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. I didn't even remeber there was a DU fundraiser (first contact was
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 06:54 PM by Land Shark
this past Friday to discuss possible representation)

edited for clarity
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #29
59. Well actually, there was a great deal of concern on DU that these funds
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 08:43 PM by Bill Bored
might somehow end up going to the First Lady of BlackBoxVoting.org.

But there was assurance from Brad that this wouldn't happen.

Here's the thread:

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #59
75. Well, FWIW, that's not happening. Ya'll can sleep easy in da humidity now
Edited on Tue Jul-25-06 12:32 AM by Land Shark
on edit: hey, check out my new automatic signature. Disclosure on all 2500 or so posts that I've ever posted!
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. If it's so automatic, how come you keep writing about it? nt
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #76
82. Why, it's in fine print Bill Bored, and as a disclosure it should
therefore be pointed to definitely much more than once.

Did you see my automatic signature? ; )
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #24
47. I dont think Paul solicited any money on DU.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #24
53. I never solicited money from DUers.
the test is not the existence of controversy per se, the test is transparency. You Found out about this only thru me/us.

An I was only in the picture of discussion as a real possibility as of Friday, three days ago. Not during the DU fundraising and I most certainly was not personally soliciting contributions.

but to the extent there is STILL anyone not satisfied, there has always been a refund policy.

See my new automatic signature.
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:16 PM
Response to Original message
34. New Rule
Work for election integrity and reform under your real name.

Or shut the fuck up.

Who dares to anonymously hurl slurs at those who have put their names and sacred honor on the line not for selfish reasons but for YOUR right, for all of OUR collective right, to vote and live in a Democracy?

Dave Berman
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. Hahahahahahaha
Ok. Anything you say.

My Real Name
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Why do you care?
There are 92,000 DUers here, probably 91,000+ utilize 'user names'. Your question is not appropriate here.

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Normally, I would agree, but when taking potshots you should use your real
name, it's a courage thing.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Riiiiiiiiiigh, truth isn't 'potshots'
It's just the truth.

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #43
54. When a case is dismissed because the DREs are gone and thus "moot"
to call that a loss, plain and simple, as troubleinwinter tries to, is misleading. Moreover, when it is on appeal and could very well still win everything it ever asked for, it is especially misleading to call it a loss.

See my new automatic signature. I'm practicing what I complained about earlier. I'm also going to investigate and reject any money if I find out it's from Diebold, Sequoia, ES&S, Choicepoint, Triad, Danaher, or the like.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. DISMISSED. A precedent.
But that's what you are good at. Setting precedents which hurt democracy.

And walking away with the money.

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. The only cases that are precedents are published APPELLATE cases
nothing else can be, or is, precedent.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. My real name is
My real name.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. If this is so important to you....
there's a place you'll just LOVE!

They use real names! But wait.... THERE'S MORE!

Bev even exposes a non-BBV member's real name and location for having the gall to legally request a 990! But wait.... THERE'S MORE!

She even repeatedly misidentifies people!

But wait.... THERE'S MORE! ...oh, never mind. You're already a member there & know all of this.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #36
46. Maybe CA-50 should have hired a different lawyer?
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 09:01 PM by FogerRox
Let me get out the Yellow Pages, ummmmmmmm, lawyers, ok, .... um nothing here about Lawyers that know about Election Law. Lemme try the INTERNET......

Boredtodeath, what do you think about Penny Ventis, she just lost a Anti DRE law suit in NJ.

Here in NJ we had a need for a lawyer, by the time we found one, we realized we knew more about what was pertainent then he did.

See.... there are a few problems here,

1)Very few lawyers/law firms do this kind of work.

2)Lawyers that do this kind of work, may not want to upset the Applecart.

3)Lawyers that dont give a shit about upsetting the Applecart, usually dont know about Election Law.


And quite frankly, we had a situation here in NJ, earlier this year, I contacted Paul about hiring him. But the Landscape of legal action changed faster than we could adapt, or raise money, in other words, Sequoia finally delivered the rest of the order, of voting machines.

Plus I saw one of Brad Friedmans pals in DC, back in Feb. He was driving a minivan, towing a billbored.... I think I have the Pic... right here..



By the way A DUer runs this site for hosting pics... http://news.globalfreepress.com


"I think there should be an investigation into how ADS & VR got money to pay for this.... all they did was buy a sign... I am not buying it...."

its all about credibility, wheres yours pal? Keep crowing about creds, keep it up, dont stop, keep pointing the accusing finger at somebody, ya gotta keep 'em guessing, keep them on their toes






PS... Paul, kick some Cali ass for us.. eh?

XXXX

My name is Roger Fox, and I authorized this message.



This message too.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #46
61. Roger, you are the Best
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 08:53 PM by autorank
I know because I looked it up in the Yellow Pages under "best"...right there...

He this Bushby deal is heavy duty DU...Brad does the reporting and rabble rousing and Land Shark gets the case. Watch out, that's a great combination.

That's why we're proud of Paul - Land Shark - and Brad - bradblog -

because I'm a DEMOCRAT on DU

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. After the second grade,
they'll give you a relular pencil, instead of the big fat one, and regular lined paper instead of the special 'kid' kind with the lines far apart, and you'll learn to write in a normal size.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #34
69. That's why you got that glowing message...that and it was the truth!
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #34
72. kick
:kick:

1 of 2.

dp
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
86. Thank you!
I'm with you, shut the fuck up unless you are out there doing the good work tirelessly as we are and have some reason to be critical of others!
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:14 PM
Response to Original message
45. Hey Paul, I'm VERY PROUD OF YOU!!! Any Democrat would be.
The California 50th case is huge. It's the first time that the locals and the national party have been unified to STRONGLY FIGHT election fraud and SECRET VOTE counting.

It's an amazing process...Brad Freidman does an amazing job of reporting, truly. I went through his articles today and I don't know where he gets the time or energy but he does.

Then the picke you as counsel.

I'm a member of my county Democratic Central Committee and this is the type of action I like
AS A DEMOCRAT.

You deserve the support of all of us.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
52. Correction: Any Democrat Paul hasn't attacked.
But that list is long.

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liam_laddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #52
83. bored and troubled...
B-T-D and T-I-W - you are incomprehesible. Nothing of content,
just wisecracks (oxymoronic, in your cases). Go Land Shark!
:dem:
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #83
88. Nothing of content?
Read much?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #88
89. fooj, i was struck by your comment in your bio:
"If we have no peace it is because we have forgotten that we belong to each other.-Mother Teresa"

Very truly yours,
Land Shark
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. And I was struck by your comment:
"I've always believed that... a spoonful of mercy can set free the soul"

I guess unless it relates to a dedicated Democratic elections reform activist whose name is Donna.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #91
95. Under restorative justice, the first step is acknowledgement
Edited on Tue Jul-25-06 08:36 PM by Land Shark
that some wrongs have been done (like nondisclosure to the public and others) and then the second step can move into the areas of forgiveness, spoonful of mercy, etc. By forgiving, the victim actually sets themselves free from having an "unwanted relationship" with their victimizer, if you will.

So yeah, if Donna and Joan can start to see that their actions, regardless of whether or not well intended, create issues for the activist community (or at least some folks in that community) then there is an opening toward which a process can proceed toward those things like forgiveness, reconcilation, or at least just moving on. This kind of work has even happened in death penalty cases (though not the one I assisted on that my firm at the time was involved with).

But I don't know anybody working on these things where there's not any movement or acknowledgement on the other side. LIke I've often said, full disclosure (which might possibly substitute for cutting ties, if full enough and continuous into the future) and new policies to prevent problems would create an opening that I already said would result in me making efforts to help raise money for VTUSA if there was a shortfall.

But denials denials denials of even the idea that it creates the appearance of a conflict is simply going to breed distrust. If there's not even an acknowledgement that it looks pretty darn bad to a whole bunch of people, then there's no reason to believe that mercy and moving on (as you put it, sorta) and some looking the other way and benefit of the doubt would result in anything but a repetition of the same things, all over again. Maybe you can check and see what's possible here, if you were serious in your quote.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:31 PM
Response to Original message
56. This thread is now up to four removed messages, any guesses as
Edited on Mon Jul-24-06 08:34 PM by Land Shark
to how many of them are from boredtodeath? Thus, I'm going to wait before replying to messages since they may ultimately be removed anyway. I was apparently in the wrong for wanting boredtodeath to "get real" with her accusations and state her name. So, I apologize for asking her to come out of hiding.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #56
63. I came back after posting, to reply to certian credibilty charges
But alas, they are gone.

Paul I stand with you, period.

And if anybody has a problem with that, I suggest they do what David Frost told Richard Nixon, "fold it 5 times, and put it where the moon doesn't shine" .

My name is Roger Fox and I approved this message.


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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #63
65. I am autorank and I approve of YOUR MESSAGE!!! n/t
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #63
71. I am kster, and I also approve of this message.....n
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robinlynne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #56
87. Don't waste your time. CA-50 needs you!
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livvy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
64. Excellent news. Go get them LandShark!
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
68. Personally, I'm rooting for Paul, here.

I hope all will consider doing the same as I think it'll help, and risks only our egos.

I have some disagreements with Paul, serious ones, perhaps. But I look at the tenor of these discussions and feel disappointed that we're unable to deal with them in more productive and respectful fashion. I would have even liked to pull some of my own posts.

One may feel really hurt by what Paul has been doing? Others feel really hurt about the issue Paul presents.

And while I've decried what I perceive as opacity, what, in this world, is really that black and white...to a progressive?

We, all of us, are posting way too much of our emotions, and not enough from our heads. The task at hand calls out for the latter.

Paul, I insist you owe me some beer, but if you'll pick it up, and if Brad runs over to Zankou Chicken, I'll bring my (world famous, really) rice pilaf.

Good luck with this case.

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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-24-06 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. Hold on, Wilms, Brad & Paul havin a party... without me? NO WAY
Very sane words, Wilms, thank you.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #70
74. I'll buy a round, if we can find a bar that will allow our potluck! : )
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Cookie wookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #74
94. Yes, Paul, turn your attacks in a direction
that will forward all our goals.

And all the best of luck in doing that.

San Diego used to be one of my old haunts . . . turn up a cup for me.
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truckin Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #68
80. Well said Wilms! Good luck Paul in this important battle.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #80
97. Truckin WHAZ up? I was in Roxbury July 1&2, with lamont written on my VAN
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truckin Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #97
109. Hi Roj! Good to see you posting here again. We're waitiing to
hear what accessible voting machine the CT SOTS chooses. Word is that we should hear in a couple of weeks. Let me know the next time you are in CT, you probably passed right by my town on the way to Roxbury.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #109
114. I took Rt 84 across.. I'll make a visit later in the summer.
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #68
101. Wilms
:applause:
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
73. 2 of 2
:kick:

:kick:


dp
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
90. How hard is it to support a Democrat fighting for a Democrat?
Shouldn't be at all. I didn't agree wiht David Boyce's positions on a number of things but I was 100% behind him when he was fighting for Al Gore in Florida, 100%.

I guess what I'm wondering is is Elections Forum a Democratic forum when we let people fightingi for us get slandered. I personally know for sure, without any doubt that the claims about Paul expressed here are 100% UNTRUE.

The material thrown up here about Paul regarding funds and motives is utterly false and rediculous, hut a Democrat fighting for a Democrat has to endure baseless, gratutious attacks here.

The posting by emlev of this announcement should be a point of joy and price, hut a Democrat fighting for a Democrat has to endure baseless, gratutious attacks here.

As a party, Busby is the most important challenge we've had since 2000 BECAUSE THE PARTY FROM DEAN ON DOWN SUPPORTS THE CHALLENGE, it's our best shot, hut a Democrat fighting for a Democrat has to endure baseless, gratutious attacks here.

I'm on DemocraticUnderground.Com because I'm a

DEMOCRAT!

As a DEMOCRAT I have a real problem with people attacking a Democrat fighting for a Democrat in the most important election fraud case we've got going.

Has it occured to anyone that this his a very DU challenge? Brad Friedman, Bradblog, got the thing going with brilliant reporting, just brilliant, and gutsy too. Paul got the case and I'm sure that they did some serious looking (have no insight on that) because there are very bright people behind this.

LETS ALL SUPPORT OUR DEMOCRATICunderground users FIGHTING FOR THE TRUTH.

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #90
92. "support a Democrat"
"...a Democrat has to endure baseless, gratutious attacks here."

Land Skark LEAD the baseless, gratuitous

EXCORIATION and CONDEMNATION


of a long-time DEMOCRATIC elections reform supporter and DUer.

(Note to DUers: Sincere apologies for the gigantic font. I know it's rude. But Autorank seems to believe that it's the only way for a comment to be at all meaningful.)
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #92
98. I think it was FOGER ROX who started that crap with the large Font
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #92
115. those are some BIG words
literally and figuratively.
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Cookie wookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #90
93. "I guess what I'm wondering is is Elections Forum a Democratic forum
when we let people fighting for us get slandered"

I sincerely hope that means everyone "fighting for us" who get slandered.....


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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 08:35 PM
Response to Reply #90
96. "...we let people fighting for us get slandered."




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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #96
99. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #96
100. We have to let them, auto
it is part of free speech. It does seem, however, that some usernames are created a little more equal than the rest of us. The examples of attacks on this thread are things that quite a few other posts have been deleted for. I can't help but feel there is a special interest involved, and one that is indeed, against democratic success.

Peace.
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WillYourVoteBCounted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #96
106. you really are creative
you come up with some great pictures!

Its good to have a laugh now and then.

Maybe DU should have a good humor day for a change.
It might help.
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suziedemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #90
113. This reminds me of what happened to TIA.
Wasn't he tomb-stoned after he got caught up in a stream of attacks here? Wasn't someone (Andy?) falsely accused of making up an illness to con money out of DUers? Why are there so many horrible people here with over 1000 posts? Do they lie in waiting and then suddenly show their true colors?

I LOVE DU because it is one of the few forums on the web that deals with issues I care about. And, I'm convinced we (all of DU but especially TIA, Autorank, Brad and LandShark) are making a difference with our refusal to forget about election fraud. But when I click on a thread to hear about election reform and I read one stupid insult after another, and vague accusations I can't figure out from the posts that haven't been deleted, well ... it makes me hate it here.

Go ahead with your huge fonts Autorank!! I know you're one of the good guys!!!! And you are fighting the good fight.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #113
116. Thanks suziedemocrat...
Edited on Thu Jul-27-06 01:17 AM by autorank

but I really meant to say thanks fellow DEMOCRAT



Who could be offended by seeing DEMOCRAT in large letters.

Funny, it happens all the time at conventions, rallies, parades, speeches...

I just volunteered to go to my state capitol next week to help

DEMOCRATS

by testifying at a key hearing.

I also volunteered to be precinct captain for the

DEMOCRATIC


Party for the upcoming 2006 election (it's a huge precinct).

I'm also on the

DEMOCRATIC
Central Committee

for my county.

I'm proud of the fact that I'm a Democrat on DU. What could be wrong with that. Oh, I guess
I'm not "font correct."

DU does make a difference because it's been a place for people who think freely and choose to
debate constructively on key issues. I've learned a great deal here in positive exchanges on
topics where there is disagreement, most recently with the incisive Be Free, who made me think
about the spectrum of ballot opportunities. And DU makes a difference because users like you
participate, ask questions, and encourage positive dialogue.

But I guess because I'm a

DEMOCRAT

on DU working for free, fair, & transparent elections and because I'm a

DEMOCRAT

working hard in my community I'm somehow fair game for petty insults, which I don't see because
I'm a big fan of "ignore.'

DEMOCRAT

DEMOCRATS

DEMOCRATIC



Now that's a beautiful sight. I'm sure we can all agree on that.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 10:39 PM
Response to Original message
102. off topic
sort of, but i can't believe the fighting going on in this forum. how immature. all the well known names that have always been around here are being childish to eachother. am i just reading things wrong? i really just don't understand this. this forum used to be a team :(
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #102
105. You're reading the wrong Faye. I'll PM you.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #102
108. Sounds right to me. n/t
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-25-06 11:09 PM
Response to Original message
104. CA-50 is one of the most visible cases
because of Cunningham. It is therefore very important to the other side of the isle, as well as to election reform in general. Remember how they rushed Bilbray to the House seat?

This is a very important fight, regardless of whether what method or election problem someone prefers or feels strongly about here, it is for the public to see and hear. The majority of the citizens of this country, regardless of party affiliation, do not bother to know the details of electronic voting systems. But they will care, when they know there is a problem with the chain of custody of the voting systems, as well as such wanton disregard and indifference (in fact arrogance) as displayed by the SD election officials. Further if it implies, even by a mere seed of suspicion, that political operatives could be involved. OMG, it may be true after all - that RFK Jr. guy..... Good Morning, America.

It is time that all organizations and activists pull together - is it not possible to fight the current systems from all angles? Along the way, some will stumble and others will advance, the ones that stumble will reformulate and renew the fight, new problems will pop up and.... so on
but after all, I was under the impression that the goal is the same - transparent and fair elections - which requires informing and engaging the rest of the citizens. This case has that great potential, that I think we should engage C-Span or Court TV to carry the feed - if SD tries to close the hearing that would be indicative, too. Hell, let's get Lou Dobbs an exclusive if need be- nah, exclusive is bad - I take it back.

I am very happy that a knowledgeable attorney like Paul took the case, and the attacks on Paul for fees is totally irresponsible. Paul would have specialized in another legal category if he wanted to make a lucrative living off his profession: like representing celebrities or large corporations.


Now, go get them, Landshark.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 12:20 AM
Response to Reply #104
107. Very well put.
Edited on Wed Jul-26-06 12:49 AM by troubleinwinter
I agree with all that you have said.

Except I don't have much of an opinion on the last paragraph, because I don't know anything about Land Shark's history of litigating election issues, except that he litigated the recently dismissed Kentucky case. I have tried to find any others, and have asked him, but can find no others. I only know that he travels and speaks, and that he opposes HR 550 (as does Bev Harris), and I disagree with him on that.

I am not on the board of the organization hiring him. He says it it hard to get an attorney to take elections cases. I don't pretend to have an opinion about his abilities to represent the case or his fees. I know nothing at all about his history of litigating election issues but the Kentucky case. I would like to, but that is just that.
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mod mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-26-06 04:35 PM
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112. Hoping Paul keeps us updated!
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Kurovski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-27-06 11:53 AM
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117. Thank you Landshark.
Your ability to keep your cool and to help mantain our dignity here on DU is is noteworthy.
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