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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:11 PM
Original message
Fake BBV Site Owned by Diebold PR & More!
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 10:23 PM by Einsteinia
Dear DUers--

Quick Prologue:

I just received an impassioned letter from Jim March, employee and Board member of the Blackboxvoting. Because he says that the message can be shared, I'm going to post it here whether he approves of it or not--because I think it's so very important that DUers know what's been going on.

I think most people who post here realize nothing less than democracy is at stake in waking people up to the vulnerabilities of our election systems. I think most people who post here realize that there is a concerted effort by the mainstream media and many election officials to ridicule and dismiss our efforts to minimize our impact.

But things are changing:

Recently it appears that the tide is turning a bit on the media front with the advent of RFK, Jr.,'s new article, as well as the Mark Crispin Miller book--not to mention the fact that Newsweek finally covered our issue. Also, we have seemingly for the first time a few election officials who've become heroes, such as Bruce Funk and Ion Sancho. So, what is it that has emboldened them? Investigations have shown irrefutably that the equipment made by the "Big-3," including Diebold, are so easy to rig that they don't work for their intended purpose. And who has spearheaded much of the investigations of the election equipment far beyond the rubber stamp of the ITAs? Blackboxvoting is definitely one of them. If the content of the below revelation is not reason enough, I hope that the Bev-bashng crowd here will in the interest of fairness let this point of view have a moment to exist uncensored. Because it isn't about BBV, it's about people undermining OUR efforts for OUR common cause.

So here's the news I just received:

This is Jim March speaking on my own time, my own computer and my own dime.

I'm too pissed off right now to write while representing BBV and part of what I've got to say might be seen as too partisan for Black Box Voting's 501c(3) status. But I still have free speech off duty.

There has been an internet smear campaign going on for years now. Much of it has focused on Bev Harris but it has extended to other activists and even the single best mainstream reporter on the issue, Ian Hoffman of the Oakland Tribune.

The smears have occurred under multiple fake names online, at DemocraticUnderground, Slashdot, the Yahoo financial forum for Diebold, Bradblog's comments system, Fark and lord only knows how many others. It has sown dissention and distrust. One entire website sprung up claiming to be activist-based promoting this stream of BS. See this report for details:

http://blackboxvoting.org/diebold-PRmachine.pdf

Black Box Voting just posted proof that it was engineered, at least in part, by people within Diebold. One major smear site was run by a Diebold employee (Rob Pelletier) tied into Diebold's above-ground PR efforts and actions at the California Secretary of State's office and elsewhere.

IP addresses and other data have been traced linking Rob P. to malicious activity at various sites including identity theft of activists, signing up as names such as "The Real Pat Vesely" and the like.

At various times BBW people were able to watch this clown on his own webcam surfing the blackboxvoting.org website while we sniffed his incoming IP.

This brutal joke of a website was promoted as an "informational site" to county elections officials by other Diebold employees, esp. Steve Knecht.

The whole thing would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic and unethical.

I predict "Rob P" will be fired. But it doesn't matter. Take a look at BBV's report on this whole mess:

http://blackboxvoting.org/diebold-PRmachine.pdf

The stuff involving the illicit PR by Rob and an unknown number of others starts on page six. It's juicy reading although BBV tried to treat this mess as professionally as possible given the subject matter. But Bev also covers their "aboveground" PR on pages one through five. There's as many ethical failures there as there is in the underground PR.

This. Company. Doesn't. Belong. Near. Our. Votes.

End of discussion.

Jim March

PS: Somebody get this into the Alameda board of supes and anybody else considering Diebold.

PPS: SPREAD IT FAR AND WIDE!
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
1. i really don't understand
i really don't understand any of this. the title says "fake BBV site". which BBV site? there is a .org and a .com

the .com BBV owner still posts here at DU. what site is this referring to? who is Diebold pretending to be? This isn't linked to anything either. I really don't understand what any of this is saying.
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 10:32 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Oh, here's the FAKE site:
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 10:33 PM by Einsteinia
http://blackboxWATCHDOG.com /

It is a website ostensibly dedicated to providing a "watchdog" service for all the disinformation foisted by BBV.

Now, we learn it is a fake watchdog--it's really a front for Diebold propaganda.

I see now that the title I chose is confusing. But does it make sense now?
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Here's the summary I wrote at my site...
Say what you want about Black Box Voting's Bev Harris, but like the Energizer bunny she just keeps on going. Some would say that's because she's peddling conspiracy theories and raking in the bucks of the credulous. Of course, at least one of those who says such things happens to be on Diebold's payroll and as such might be considered to have an ulterior motive. Now in an exhaustive report , Bev Harris unmasks the mystery man behind the disinformation site Blackboxwatchdog.com and shows him to be Rob Pelletier, aka RobP among other names, an R&D employee of Diebold's Election Systems Division in the Vancouver area. I'm pretty convinced that Bev and her staff have nailed this one down, but be sure to read the PDF for yourself and come to your own conclusion. The information on RobP begins on page 6 of the report.
http://www.neuralgourmet.com/2006/06/05/diebold_disinfo...
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. Diebold's RobP and the SoS nexus is intriguing. . . .
And I really like your summary. Thanks!

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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. You're welcome!
I rather expect some interesting things to come to light over the next few weeks.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
11. I don't think these guys work
For Diebold... I think they work for the RNC and Diebold is merely a tool.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #2
42. If it is a fake site...
Edited on Tue Jun-06-06 09:44 PM by benburch
...it is a fake site where a lot of the TRUTH about Bev Harris' antics is told.

Bev Harris is an evil hag who helped the freepers attack the dying Andy Stephenson.

There is no record that Bev Harris filed the Form 990 for her organization for the period covering the 2004 election, or if she has, she has illegally withheld that information from persons filing a proper request for the information. She promised to post her 990 filing to her web site, and she has not. The 990 is also not in the guidestar database (I just looked). And, though a SOCK PUPPET of hers (posting here in violation of DU rules as she has been REPEATEDLY BANNED FOR CAUSE) said that it had been mailed on the 15th of last month, no sign of it can be found. "The Check Is In The Mail" is about as good a lie as "I promise not to cum in your mouth."

Perhaps a million dollars was collected by Bev's group after the stolen '04 elections, and she has never accounted for it.

And you really do need to listen to her MELT DOWN on Randi Rhodes' show. That is classic. http://www.WhiteRoseSociety.org/bev_randi.mp3

If you haven't heard her lies and excuses in this clip, you don't know Bev Harris. Just AMAZING. She even pretends that she didn't know that Andy was no longer working with her! And she fired him herself!!! And she promises Randi action (writing various people (Wexler, Conyers, etc.) about her FOIA issues) that she has never subsequently performed, or at least, that there is no record of her having kept those promises.

Personally, I think this is no fake site, it is a site put up by somebody Bev burned. (There being MANY activists in that condition.)
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 04:15 PM
Response to Reply #42
100. Is Ian Hoffman and Joan Krawitz also
Edited on Fri Jun-09-06 04:19 PM by Einsteinia
evil?

What about this site's green light on equipment?

If you really believe Bev killed Andy, then you should call the police and file a police report.

If she hasn't filed proper papers, then call the IRS.


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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. "If she hasn't filed proper papers, then call the IRS"
I fully intend to, if she does not comply with her legal obligation to fulfill my request for a copy of 990 filing. Though my request was acknowleged by her on April 3, she appears to be delaying the full 30 days after filing to comply with my request.
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autorank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-21-06 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #2
157. You I like! Thanks for telling the truth and handling the hot potato.
Just went to wonder site. "Alleged security expert Harri Hursti "...that did it for me. He's not "alleged," he's the real deal. Who else has hacked a machine twice in a controlled setting.

We don't need counter agents, double agents, but,of course, we've got them.

It's a sign of their desperation, weakness and calumny...the people who lie to divide, the bought and paid for who pose piously as purveyors of some special insight.

All will be revealed some day. Until thin, this type of post is valuable.
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Jigarotta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #2
159. oh my. Isn't that the link that Kelvin Mace uses
on occassion to 'support' his bev bashing?

At least that is what I recall - please correct me if I'm wrong.


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checks-n-balances Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:25 PM
Response to Original message
6. Remember hearing about 'Rob Georgia'? Wonder if it was Pelletier
Edited on Mon Jun-05-06 11:26 PM by checks-n-balances
That was the name of the program/patch that was supposed to 'fix' the problems with the GA voting machines? Georgia - the state that went all-Diebold.

If it was Rob P., then the name 'Rob' certainly had a double entendre.

That whole business makes me sick. These people are the absolute dregs of society - the termites/cockroaches/vermin hidden from view of the naked eye or at least hidden from the light of day.
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. Not sure, but I see these intimate details explain more:
According to the link, there's a pattern of deception that unravelled as follows:

1. Mr Diebold (Pelletier) is documented as signing a non-disclosure agreement in the testing of Diebold product by the SoS's office.

2. Then BBV found a Word document containing a "proposed testing protocol" was forwarded by Bruce McDannold (of the SoS office) to Black Box Voting containing test conditions grossly favoring Diebold.

3. Then BBV says that when they looked at the MS-Word document properties, it said that it came straight from a Diebold computer (specifically from the desk of Rob Pelletier who, again, is the owner of the fake blackbox WATCHDOG website)

Is this a wild conclusion: The SoS's office and Mr. Diebold Pelletier quite clearly have an intimitate relationship unbefitting our election integrity clean room--our SoS office


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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. Rob Pelletier is listed as being in R&D at Diebold
So it's likely he might have been asked by a boss to prepare that document for the SoS's office, but I don't think we can say yet that RobP has a relationship with them.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. send out to press and advocacy groups
and send a greeting to Robby :)

or anonymous army :)
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. good idea
n/t
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. seriously, anon army was from Canada if I remember correctly
We traced him to a Texas group and a guy responsible for the Perot debacle during his cmapaign. I handed everything off to Andy's partner and left it for him to decide what to do with the information. But if I remember correctly Anonymous army was part of the Andy hit squad and part of the team that took down Perot. And if I remember correctly, one of the guys claimed to be working for an intel agency (not sure which one) and ABC (I think, maybe CBS, don't remember) did a whole article on him and his odd tales. I believe the first name of that guy is Scott and Anonymous Army was Steve, I think... as I said, I handed all of my research off to Ted after Andy died.
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Kostafarian Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
43. Anonymous Army
still posts on Kos, daily it looks like. How can all this be true, yet nobody is able to do anything about him over there?

Are you sure you have the right guy? You said you personally traced him to a texas group, how did you do that? Is there anything you can post here that could be used to rid kos of him?

Do you have any links to the abc/cbc articles written about him?
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-19-06 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #43
156. He also read THIS thread the other day.
He is still actively trolling.

I suspect that he does indeed work for Diebold.

He lives in the Toronto area, possibly in Ajax, ON, a Toronto bedroom burb.
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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-05-06 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
9. Oh for crying out loud!!! Straight from Rove's playbook!
If only Diebold would devote a fraction of the time and effort they spend attacking election reformists to create secure, reliable and accurate machines, we wouldn't be here.
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 12:07 AM
Response to Original message
13. Is there a way to get a transcript of the PDF file?
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. You can just download the PDF...
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. Thanks, but I can't download PDF files on this computer ~
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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. Adobe has a tool that will convert it to HTML to be viewed in your browser
But it won't do the pictures and video...
http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/access_onlinetool...

Just plug in the URL of the PDF...
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/diebold-PRmachine.pdf
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Catrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Thank you ~ :-)
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 12:28 AM
Response to Original message
15. I just learned that Elaine Ginnold of CA's Alameda County
had suggested that activists look at this fake website for the truth.

If you don't know, Elaine Ginnold was just about to be run out of Alameda on a rail when Michael Smith of Marin County chose her to be the new registrar of voters for Marin.

Gee, both Alameda and Marin are Diebold.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Alameda will be using paper ballots.
Edited on Tue Jun-06-06 01:59 AM by fooj
Diebold failed to meet federal and state standards.

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/9325145/detail.html
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #19
37. Looks like Sequoia for their
disability requirement.

Everyone's doing paper in California--BUT the question will it be toilet paper with disappearing ink -or- hard to find behind a little secret door -or- will it be one of the "early voting" pieces of paper that will not be part of the 1% mandatory audit under 15360 because someone has claimed it is precinctless.

Where's Zogby when we need him!

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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
20. I read the pdf
and need to comment and have questions. But it is late and I have to get some sleep.

I have gut feelings I have to sort out...


night all
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 06:09 AM
Response to Original message
21. small surprise
not
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
22. OMG! This is what makes Bev Harris a laughing stock.
Wally O'Dell - bwahahahahahahahahahaha, that's just ROFL crazy shit.

You folks DO realize that a company (any company) BUYS A SET OF IP addresses, right?

You DO realize that a casual user cannot - EVER - associate a single IP address to an INDIVIDUAL, right?

This whole document is nothing more than innuendo and supposition. More paranoid delusions of Bev Harris & Company.

Yet another example of the "investigative" work of this outfit.



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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. The IP address used was that of a home cable modem.
Not a Diebold assigned IP. Cable modem IP addresses tend to stay static for lengthy periods of time. This IP address belongs to Shaw Cable in the Surrey (Vancouver suburb), BC area.

The IP address is also a very minor (approx. 1 page) part of the story. Indeed, I'd say it's the most minor part.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. My IP address is static.
I do share it, but I'm probably the only one looking at BBV issues.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. So you know that's Wally O'Dell's IP address?
This story gets more ridiculous by the moment.
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documaker Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #33
49. Methinks thou bwahaha's too much.
Dear boredtodeath:

What page was Wally O'Dell's name mentioned on?

I read the report three times but it wasn't in there.

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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. ROFL You must need comprehension lessons.
n/t
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #29
44. Cablemodem addresses stay static for a long time?
What universe is that in? What is the color of the sky on that planet?

I designed a DOCSYS-compliant cablemodem head-end system for Zenith long ago, and we allowed addresses to remain static only for seven days. The reason for this is that truly static addresses are something you can SELL.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #44
46. This shit is something else, huh?
I'm stunned at the utter lack of understanding when it comes to computers in the BBV group.

After reading Jim March's emails, I understand why a judge wouldn't qualify him as an expert.

Makes it easy to understand why no one in the BBV Gang thought to ask for Hursti's CV before they started touting him as an "expert."

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #46
53. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
23. Lol!
:rofl:
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
25. looks right to me
Many things to do with BBV get really weird, really fast, but the Watchdog website was always weird. The chain from the whois to therealrobp to Diebold seems pretty reasonable.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. You see, that's the problem
"seems reasonable" and "really weird, really fast" doesn't offer any PROOF now, does it? There's no THERE, THERE. Just a whoooole lotta maybes and seems and possibly.

In the meantime how many innocent's homes, cars, phones and addresses are published on "supposition" and not PROOF.

If this were true "investigative journalism" as Bev touts, the publisher wouldn't allow this to go to press for fear of libel and slander lawsuits.

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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #26
34. Straight Scoop--See:
I just wrote Jim for a quick response to all these accusations, and here's what he wrote back to me:

For those with a short attention span, let's condense down the trail that leads from blackboxwatchdog.com to Diebold. I'm skipping a lot of ground here.

BBWD is registered to a:

Jean-Claude Van Camme
77 E Main St
Tucker, Georgia 30085
United States
(917) 210-6543

...by way of GoDaddy.

As is the porn site "www.camlives.com " registered to:

Jean-Claude Van Camme
4426 Hugh Howell Rd Ste B
Tucker, Georgia 30084
United States

The "camlives" site used to be registered to 77 E Main until recently (mid-May of '06) which is also exactly when www.blackboxwatchdog.com went active again after a long hiatus - the smear on Ian Hoffman was published on 5/20/2005 and then nothing until 5/16/06 followed by posts on the 20th, 21st and 25th of May '06.

So we can take it to the bank that the BBWD and "Camlives" sites are owned by the same person or persons.

There is an online dispute over registation/website maintenance in which "Therealrobp" and "RobP" are linked to the camlives site:

http://www.webhostingtalk.com/archive/thread/252422-1.h...

Next, furiosity.com links back to RobP in the administrative contact (use http://who.godaddy.com to confirm).

On the Furiosity site and it's linked livejournal blog, RobP reveals all sorts of personal details: his face, picture of his house and descriptions of his cars. RobP doesn't go so far as to reveal his real name.

At this point BBV works backwards from Diebold to meet "RobP in the middle.

They start with the employee roster, find a "Rob Pelletier" and another potential "RobP" elsewhere. They realize Pelletier has turned up in connection to PR actions against them - in particular it was his name that came up in the MS-Word properties of a document they recieved from the California Secretary of State's office which they took as very problematic at the time (late 2005) - it specified a set of test protocols that was very favorable to Diebold. So they focus on Pelletier first.

They looked up the house for the Rob Pelletier living in Canada, drove there, photographed it and compared it to the pic posted by "RobP" on the furiosity/livejournal sites. Perfect match. As were the cars. They have redacted the street address of this house and the girlfriend's green Kia for privacy - they're trying not to throw stalkers into this.

Then they followed his car straight to a Diebold parking lot.

Is it a perfect chain?

Not quite. There's a minor flaw in the "RobP" linkage from blackboxwatchdog and camlives over to furiosity...it's barely possible that the "RobP" connected to blackboxwatchdog isn't the same "RobP" on furiosity who can be definately linked straight to Diebold. I also haven't had time to look at the sites or registry data at abadteen.com, acamcouple.com and acamgirl.com so there may be other cross-links there between these two "RobP"s.

But really, what are the odds? Other people within Diebold have promoted BBWD to activists and election officials. BBWD has taken a consistently pro-Diebold stance. The "RobP" from camlives/BBWD is definately the same clown that did gag posts all over the BBV forums - never mind IP addresses, note the stylistic similarity of "TheReal" (Pat Vesaly, RobP, others). It's also unlikely BBV has released every single detail, they've been tracking this for a while. BlackBoxWatchdog is connected to Diebold, it has been suspected for some time and now BBV has shown the linkage.

Now as to IP addresses. RobP is trying to make money in online porn, which means very high bandwidth connections, which almost always means fixed IP addresses over floating. So a fixed IP is very believable. The same IP addresse shows up at Bradblog and the BBV forums and God knows where else.

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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. P.S. I forgot to
add that Jim had said that he wasn't involved in the RobP/BBWatchdog investigation at BBV and was just now looking at this from a fresh perspective--hence what he said above.

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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 05:35 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Says it all: 'Is it a perfect chain? Not quite.'
And anyone who falls for this bullshit is truly pathetic.
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documaker Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #36
54. Apparently the chain is sturdier then its detractors
I just read this at http://www.boomantribune.com - a site I haven't seen before, worth a read.

Re: Diebold's Robert Pelletier Nailed in Covert In (3.66 / 3)

The information stands up. I checked out the IP addresses at www.DNSstuff.com for

blackboxwatchdog.com
acamgirl.com
furiosity.com

Sure enough, those websites all lead back to the identical synergydesigns.net address:
ns1.synergydesigns.net. A IN 14400 69.93.182.82
ns2.synergydesigns.net. A IN 14400 69.93.182.83

The people who kept trying to sling mud at BBV and Bev H always had the feel of being part of some kind of organized campaign. Now we can see part of the disinformation campaign more clearly, and at least one Diebold employee is at the center of it all.

Does Diebold know that this has been exposed?

Diebold's conniving with state election officials seems particularly repugnant. Is it illegal for a company to refer state election officials to an "independent" website when actually their own employee is in charge of the website? Isn't this misreprepresentation or racketeering or some other kind of crime? If it's not illegal it ought to be.


When I develop a film I sometimes take 100 hours of footage for a 45 minute piece. For a 20-page report documented as carefully as this, I expect hundreds of pages more must exist. I sense something more in this story.
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drm604 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #34
40. You need to be very careful with name coincidences.
Edited on Tue Jun-06-06 08:23 PM by drm604
I recently thought that I had found a direct connection between the SwiftVets and two "think tanks", the American Enterprise Institute and the Brookings institute. It was all based on two different men who both had a Harvard connection, were both active in the conservative community, and had the same first and last name. Further research showed that they were two completely different individuals with different middle names. Coincidences can seem to be against the odds but when you search millions of people on billions of web pages you can find what appear at first to be very compelling coincidences but that turn out to be dead ends.

The conclusions drawn above by Jim may very well be correct but that weak link needs to be filled in before anything can be said for certain.

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #40
66. But it is one of Bev's favorite hobbies!
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 02:53 PM by troubleinwinter
She LOVES claiming that various people are one-in-the-same!

Several weeks ago on her website, twice, she claimed that Roxanne Jankot and Maddy McCall are the SAME person. They are not. They don't even know one another. Just another case of Bev's paranoid conclusions of conspiracies against her.

She claims to have investigated my posts on other sites, before outing my personal information on her site (umm, Bev, I ONLY POST ON DU... wanna show me what ya got?): "I reviewed your posting history on other sites before publishing your real name."

This is some of the reason she is such a crappy "investigator" and her wild conclusions drawn from her paranoia cannot be taken seriously. She gets so much wrong. The bits she does get right are lost in her lousy investigating, jumping to crazy conclusions and wolf-crying.

This typical bit of "investigation" is just sad and embarrassing: A DUer posts. Others visit her website. "Voila! Proof!" "NC Beach Girl" on DemocraticUnderground forums once posted a series of three messages revealing the timing of several visits to Black Box Voting. Checking our IP logs for the same three time periods showed that only a half-dozen visitors had visited at coinciding times. The IP address that best matches the times of the "NC Beach Girl" posts is "24.86.46.74" Wally O'Diebold. (from the OP link)

I have read about conspiracies against Bev for years from this paranoiac. I am sick of her accusations against people conspiring against her. She has cried "wolf" so many times, that I can barely care about this "fake website" (looks real enough to me... I saw it with my own eyes! It's as real as any other website on the world wide web). The audio of Bev's interview with Randi Rhodes is hardly "fake". If she is convinced of her assertions... where are the criminal complaints?

I do see her solicitation for donations to her org. on the link, though.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. It's like peeling a rotten onion.
I'm not going to volunteer for that.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #27
45. And the rotten core...
...is Bev Harris.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #45
59. Well, I guess we know someone hates Bev Harris and may work for Diebold.
And this addresses the overall debacle of HAVA and electronic voting machines... how?

As I've said in previous posts, I do not believe these little RPG dramas in Election Reform accomplish anything positive.

Furthermore, it's not all about Diebold.

The biggest problem we have here is that public election officials -- people who are supposed to represent us -- are not allowed sufficient access to the workings of these electronic voting machines to assure us they are not corrupt.

I personally do not believe any sort of general purpose computer can ever be secure enough to count votes. In the end a ballot must be something you can hold in your own hands, and count with your own eyes.

So where's the outrage?

I'm afraid that a lot of the outrage that might have been generated has been diffused by the sorts of circus antics that go on here in this forum. Most certainly some of this sorry circus is covertly provoked by people who want it that way, but that is a side issue.

If you are seriously involved in Election Reform than you've got to listen carefully to the music you are dancing to because so many people are trying to distract you. Keep your eye on the ball.

Personally, I'm seeing this play as a distraction.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 10:29 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. I share your perspective, and your concern. Thanks for posting. n/t
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. There wouldn't be so many circuses here
if the BotClowns weren't posting Bev nonsense here all the time, their balloons filled with hot air.

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. Oooops... my appologies...
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 05:04 PM by troubleinwinter
The BotClowns photo was out of date.

This is a more current one:

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. BenBurch works for Diebold??!!!!????!!! OMG!!!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. Don't you know?!
I am the CEO and Chairman of The Board! I wrote all of the e-voting code myself!

:rofl:
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Bev knows!
She is an expert investigative journalist and knows ALL this stuff! Just wait! She will break this soon! Real, real soon! Just wait! In the meantime, you can send a her a donation.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #69
72. Right after she "breaks" her form 990?
:rofl:
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. Yup, she sure is on top of those thrilling breaking news items!
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 06:33 PM by troubleinwinter
On April 3 she emailed me acknowledging my request for a copy of the 990.

April 16 my request was acknowledged on her site, "Your request for a copy of our completed Form 990 has been duly noted and will be sent at our earliest convenience within our legal responsibility to do so."

She claims it was filed 5/15. I still don't have a copy.

I guess it hasn't been convenient yet.

Fulfilling legal IRS requirements just isn't as breathtakingly "juicy" as accusing DUers of working for Diebold, claiming different people are one, or crying wolf.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Laws don't matter so much to Libertarians...
that's why so many of them are serving time on tax fraud charges!

We had one at a place I used to work who not only claimed ownership of the company on his tax forms, but wrote it all off as a loss! Not only did he serve time, but he lost his job the moment this was learned.

Some Libertarians will run up a huge state tax bill in one state, and then skip town to another leaving it unpaid. I heard about one from Andy Stephenson. She and her ex-husband owned a chain of martial arts studios here in Illinois, and they both skipped out on the debt...
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. Hmmmm... "serving time on tax fraud charges". Makes ya wonder...
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #77
78. Andy told me that Bev Harris did not have a personal checking account...
which makes me wonder how she pays her bills? Who writes the checks? And is that money reported as income?

Andy never received a W-2 from her for 2004, and Andy said that he could not find record that she ever made the quarterly estimated tax payments for his income.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. I suppose maybe,
perhaps some of these questions could have been put to rest a very long time ago, had BBV.org filed their IRS tax forms when they were due on November 15, 2005.

I would imagine that tax deposits for employees must be listed on 990.

Well over a year ago, in March of 2005, we were told by BBV that they'd hired an accountant (a specialist in non-profits), and that a 2004 year-end statement would be posted presently. Never happened.

Even having had this 'specialist' on board, BBV did not manage to file when due, and filed for six months of extensions.

Supposedly, the 990 was filed almost 4 weeks ago (last possible day). I requested a copy over nine weeks ago, but have not received it. Seemingly BBV has trouble even making a photocopy of some paper and shoving it in an envelope... or emailing.

Considering the apparent problems they have with such simple things, one can certainly imagine that she failed to file Employee Payroll Taxes or a W-2, as Andy said.

Bev always claims that people are after her. If she would simply quit blasting herself in the foot with Howitzers, blaming others for her failings, and quit speaking irresponsibly, maybe she wouldn't have so much to whine about. She does it to herself. Over & over.
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-09-06 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #82
99. Sounds like they should read 'How to Unbezzle a Fortune by B.J. Dudley'
This author knows just how to 'help' BBV w/their organizational problems! It's almost a written guide for someone to steal.


http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:sHOm05cuu7UJ:www.p...

The Top 10 Ways to Spot Accounting Fraud

unwilling to delegate ... check

handles all the money details so no one knows whats coming in or going out ... check

takes offense @ being questioned ... check

tells lies, unrelated to subject under discussion ... check

feels that they are owed something; as if she has done more than could be expected of any reasonable person ... check

can't seem to find things when you ask ... check

And my absolute favorite:

Likes to point out incompetence of others. Pointing fingers at others puts an alibi in place, should you discover something amiss ... big ol' check

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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #78
83. Uhhh, wait a minute.......
You have to have a checking account to process credit cards. They deposit the funds directly into your checking account.

That must be why she asked so many people to process credit cards for her (illegally!), including her customers. This from author Tim Hutchinson:

UPDATE 3: Bev called to say that she was having trouble with her merchant account and wanted to know if I'd process some credit cards for her(!). She said that I could keep all the money for doing this, and the amount (approx. $1,000) could be applied to the amount she owes me. She said the info needed to process the cards would be sent to me in an email soon. This is the last I've ever heard from her. To this day not even a single penny has been refunded to me.
http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:ZP-N_uObgbAJ:www.t...

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 08:07 PM
Response to Reply #83
85. Huh. She owes him money and claims she'll pay her debt to
him with public donations???!!! WTF?!

(yer link isn't working)
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #85
88. Classic Bev, no?
Rob Peter to pay Paul and do it illegally in the process.

Sorry about the link. This is 2003 info. Maybe Tim just gave up and took it down.

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #85
90. Ahhh... got a working link.
http://tinyurl.com/r6ydf

It is interesting reading, but not surprising, it sounds like everything we have known of her standard behavior.

I did not know that she was so deeply in debt that she 'couldn't imagine ever getting out' less than a year before establishing BBV.org as a non profit. I also did not know that she had a record with BBB bad enough to shut her business. Huh.


From: "Bev Harris" <>
To: "American Youth" <>
Sent: Friday, August 08, 2003 3:32 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Email Receipt of your online complaint
> I just read your latest complaint. The amount due less the amount of
> services provided is about $4,200, assuming the phone calls made were
> (and I agree) not adequate. I know you want the full $6,000. I will tell
> you that I can't imagine at this point ever getting out of debt, and
> will do my best to make this right. I will now assume that the BBB
> complaints will serve to effectively shut down my business for good
-- I
> was hoping to restart it in September.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #75
79. I think I know that couple!
Edited on Thu Jun-08-06 07:44 PM by Boredtodeath
Last name starts with an H????

I also heard a whole lot of parents of those studios sued them as well.

on edit:
Wait......no, not martial arts.......it was gymnastic studios!
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:47 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Ah, so it was!
You heard the same story I did!
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documaker Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
28. Two comments: Looks solid to me, and Conny McCormack sucks
I went to have my vote stolen today in Los Angeles County. If you ask me, Conny McCormack (local ROV) is the worst thing to happen to Latinos since we lost Willie V.

About the attack dog site, my gravest concern is anyone who doesn't seem to have a problem with Diebold's connection to it. The combo of government officials, Sec. State and ROVs passing it around and Diebold employees running it and pitching it to public officials, that's the story.

I wish the chain of proof for my vote was as strong as the chain of proof posted by BBV on BlackBoxAttackDogg.com.

1. BlackBoxAttackDogg owned by Jean-Claude Van Camme 77 E Main Tucker GA
2. Camlives.com also owned by Jean-Claude Van Camme 77 E Main Tucker GA
3. "The Real Rob P" who signs name "Rob P" admits he/wife are Jean-Claude Van Camme 77 E Main Tucker GA
4. "The Real Rob P" also owns Furiosity.com where he blogs under the name "Rob P"
5. On his blog he admits he works as a programmer in Vancouver Canada and puts a photo of his house on the Web. He describes his car and his wife's car, color make and model.
6. BBV volunteers found Rob P in the staff list as Rob Pelletier and found his house in the Vancouver area.
They took pictures of it and it is the same house as that owned by Jean-Claude Van Camme of BlackBoxAttackdog fame.
7. In front of Robert Pelletier's house are two cars, a yellow Toyota Celica and a green Kia, the same color, make and model as those owned by Jean-Claude Van Camme according to his "Rob P" blog.
8. BBV volunteers take a photograph of the license plate of the yellow Toyota Celica in front of the house that matches Jean-Claude's house, the house that belongs to Rob Pelletier
9. BBV volunteers take a photograph of said car, same license plate, driving into the parking lot for Diebold Election Systems and parking in a spot reserved for employees.

I just wish I'd been there with my gear. I'd have walked right up to the bastard and asked him on camera: "Are you Wally O'Diebold?" "How much are they paying you to post on the Internet?" "Is this part of your job description?" "Has there been any legal action taken against you?"

picture of Diebold's "therealrobp" who administers "Blackboxwatchdog.com," a Web site which specializes in skillfully written disinformation, attacking anyone who gets in the way of Diebold's business interests:


He continued to talk about himself until April 2004 when he explained that he has been too busy '...making the world safe for democracy...' to update his diary.

Picture of saving democracy statement:


RobP then claims, presumably in jest, that he's been "working undercover for the government." In this graphic from the furiosity site we get our first suggestion of RobP's appearance.
Picture of "undercover for the government" statement:


In his online profile at a site called LiveJournal.com, which he links to in his furiosity.com Web site, RobP describes himself as "an HTML ninja, a hotshot software guy and a spy."


Picture of RobP's statement about his yellow Toyota Celica:

Picture of RobP's statement about his wife's green Kia:


Videotape of Robert Pelletier/therealrobp/robp/Jean-Claude Van Camme's yellow Toyota Celica entering and parking at Diebold:
http://www.bbvdocs.org/diebold-disinfo/rob-diebold.mpg

I'd love to make the docu-farce on this one. And the name of it would be "Stupidest Ninja on the Planet".



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salvorhardin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. I agree
This is pretty solid.
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
38. Welcome to DU, documaker n/t
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dalaigh lllama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. welcome to DU, documaker
looks like you have some useful talents.
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JimDandy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #28
47. A.........men!
I wish the chain of proof for my vote was as strong as the chain of proof posted by BBV on BlackBoxAttackDogg.com.



Welcome aboard documaker!
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 03:25 PM
Response to Original message
31. Highest K&R!! Thanks for posting Einsteinia.
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 08:26 PM
Response to Original message
41. This interests me in a different way...
Edited on Tue Jun-06-06 08:28 PM by rumpel
It is the modus operandi shared by these crooks

What I mean is the Talon/Gannon/Bush-Rove gang, these at least 2 cases now, seem to have let's say Rove at the top. Then there is an organization which top exec is a supporter/fund-raiser bully. Then the hiring of these questionable guys involved in porn and other such not so great businesses.
Both Gannon and Pelletier are in charge of disinformation. Regardless of Bev, it is quite interesting.
Infuriating though, is the possibility of Diebold itself being complicit in interfering with Andy's timely treatment.
Considering the new revelations related to the Watergate Hotel scandal pimping portion, the dots connect to the defense industry (SAIC, too?) as well as certain elements in the CIA possibly the NSA. It may, ultimately connect to Rove's banks of computers on 11/2/04.

The pdf refers to NC Beach Girl on DU here are some of the threads - anyone here know "her" ?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

there are some more, but I can only find posts related to election issues-
it appears last post was in Dec. 05 :shrug:

:popcorn:

edited typo
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #41
51. Wow!!! Also, Kos+CIA+Chuck Hagel
Read this intriguing diary:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/6/153221/1163


No, the dots aren't connected. But following a similar thematic thread, this diary affirms what we already know:

Markos is hostile to the election integrity cause and has threatened to ban any stories on the topic.

BUT, now we learn that Kos admires Chuck Hagel!#?###? Hagel? The senator whose own ES&S company elected him.

Where does he get his energy advice? Ken Lay

Also, though he decided NOT to opt for the CIA, because I'm reading "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man," it makes me wonder if his "No," was really a complete break off from their circle of influence. Sound conspiratorial? Maybe. But it has happened before and that is enough reason to at least consider the possibility. (And of course those types would monitor subversive sites who dare to call themselves a "DemocraticUnderground."

The only hope is that the CIA and the Rove Tribesmen are different sides. Though Bush is trying to purge the agency as fast as he can.

Get out your popcorn!

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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #51
56. I hope he (Kos) sues your ass off for libel
Why didn't you print the whole damned thing?

Republican Senator Chuck Hagel of Nebraska is the conservative thinker Markos most respects (he had a couple of conservative friends, but they eventually "flipped," he said. "One worked for Enron.") "McCain wishes he was a really a straight shooter like Hagel is. <...> I respect him. He's unafraid to stand for what he believes in. But that doesn't mean I'd vote for him."
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #56
65. Good catch!
:thumbsup:
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charliecat Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-06-06 10:55 PM
Response to Original message
48. BBV neglects to mention 100's of Phony Diebold Office Locations
Edited on Tue Jun-06-06 10:56 PM by charliecat
Great report by BBV.

However, under Diebold PR tricks they neglected to mention that Diebold has advertised hundreds of phony office locations in at least 20 states as a sales ploy - convincing decision-makers to select Diebold due to their "large presence" in each state.

Check out http://whitepages.com and list all the Diebold offices for a state. Then list the Walmart locations. Some of the addresses will match.

We mailed certified letters to Diebold at some of these phony office locations and the letters came back refused. Diebold has nothing to do with these Walmart locations - Diebold does not even own or service the ATMs in them.

Was Walmart complicit in this scam? I think it is likely.

Diebold, when caught at this in one state first claimed:

"We really do have about 20 office locations here, but please write us a letter telling us why you have to know where they are."

(Hmm Secret undisclosed office locations - is Cheney there? - and phony non-existent offices listed as decoys in the white pages?)

Now Diebold claims that:

"The phone company made a mistake"!

(Pretty big mistake of many phone companies in many states!)
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 01:07 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. OUTRAGEOUS!
It's almost as though they would stoop so low as to hire felons or openly lie and cheat.

#: )
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #48
52. "We"?
"We mailed certified letters to Diebold..."

Who's "we"?
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #48
58. Charlie Cat could you send this to Olbermann?
Edited on Wed Jun-07-06 03:03 PM by Stevepol
If he could investigate and then report on his program that might really raise a storm, one more storm over this company anyway.

Does Brad Blog know this?
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Looks like ol' Charlie won't be responding... he's a gonner.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #60
76. It's Sock Puppet Theater!
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paineinthearse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 02:45 PM
Response to Original message
57. Wouldn't it be wonderful if the US Dept of Justice
...were not a bunch of complicit hacks???!!!!!!!!!!
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Hmm, let's call Atty General Lockyear
Anyone want to call?

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paineinthearse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-07-06 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Do you have contact info?
Faxing works best.
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #61
73. I agree!
He needs to investigate Bev Harris ASAP!
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IdaBriggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
71. Unfortunately, Bev Harris and her crew have no credibility --
so why on earth should I care about someone smearing them? You know, like they smeared Andy?

I also know damned good and well what Bev did and didn't do when it came to investigating 2004, so she can ROT for all I care. My opinion on her and her "efforts" can be found here -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... -- and that was before she pulled the crap she did with Andy.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. It's amazing that the shit from her site gets posted here
Don't you think?

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 08:02 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. It's a whole fucking circus of clowns, I tell ya.
Tiresome BotClowns.
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documaker Donating Member (48 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 08:19 PM
Response to Original message
86. Question
Suppose BBV reports are henceforth quarantined so that they are never posted Democratic Underground again. Can each of the parties then go back to work, operating separately but in peace?

What do the flags mean?

Sorry, two questions. Shit I spilled my beer. It's adios for now.



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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. Ya mean you got some anti-clown spray??!!!!
HAND IT OVER! Today must be my birthday.

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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. We never QUIT working
But, yeah, if Bev Harris' bullshit is not spread all over this site, we'll call a truce.

However, keep in mind that we're all working VERY HARD on this issue and making great progress like Joyce and David in North Carolina.

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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #89
91. Speaking only for yourself, of course.
I have no tolerance for Bev Harris. As far as I am concerned, she is a grifter, and I want to see her group's finances audited.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #91
94. Aww, Ben! You're so bad!
ROFL!

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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
92. Bottom line.
That was a Diebold website. That's all. eom. n/t. over and out.
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. There's no credible proof of such a claim
But, then again, Bev's NEVER been credible.

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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #93
95. Bottom line.
Some people deeply want to believe her. And that suits her purposes just fine.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #93
96. HAhaha
I seen it with my own eyes.

Ya know what, this thread is on my ignore list. The DOG site is done.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #96
98. No!
Yer not really going to leave this thread??!!!

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-08-06 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #92
97. (benburch works for Diebold, ya know. Check upthread.)
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Just WTFisWTF Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
101. Who are all these people?
I know I'm new, but I learn fast. I clicked on the link and started to read it, but it was very confusing. Any truth to it, or is this Bev person just another con artist on the internet?
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #101
102. This is a con artist paid for by Diebold AND
is also working inside the Secretary of State's office to oversee our equipment.

It is a site created with the intention of casting doubt over activist investigations, such as those by Blackboxvoting (Bev Harris), VoteTrustUSA (Joan Krawitz), as well as the sole reporter on these issues Ian Hoffman of the Oakland Tribune.

It's scandalous disinformation and should be prosecutable.

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #101
103. this Bev person just another con artist
Edited on Sat Jun-10-06 01:38 PM by troubleinwinter
Have you seen her 990? She seems to avoid providing it. She claims to have filed on May 15. She has a scanner. She has a website. She has my email address. She acknowledged my request April 3. I wait. Wouldn't you think a legitimate non profit organization would be more cooperative and forthcoming in reporting donated moneys? She already took 6 months extensions on filing. I wait, and wait.
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. Hmmmm?
How about Verifiedvoting.org, VoteTrustU.S.A.org, VotersUnite.org, and so on. Have they filed their 990 yet?

If filing an extension on tax returns is a crime, then 30% of the U.S. are guilty.

Where would the election cause be today had BBV not had the smarts to identify a Finnish computer tech's talents and fly him to Florida?

The cult of personality assassination around here is suspect as the workings of RonP?

What's at issue is not personalities per se, but what these people have produced of value for the cause of election integrity--not for the People magazine files.


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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #105
107. What "is at issue" to me
is BlackBoxVoting.org's 990 filing. I wait and wait.

"suspect as the workings of RonP?" Ohfergawdsakes. Anyone who requests a non-profit's 990 is accused of working for Diebold?! :rofl:

Bev has burnt so many decent people, put out so much bullshit, pulled so many antics, cried wolf so many times, that she has made her own ruined bed.

Nah, I am not "RonP". Bev knows perfectly well who I am. She did post my personal info. (along with a bunch of lies & BS), remember?
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #105
111. No, 'Einstein',
I never said that filing for six months of extensions is a crime, did I??

She's had an on-board accountant for a year and a quarter, and still struggles to be publicly accountable? WhatFUCKINGever.

According to her bot spokesperson in March 2005, an accountant specializing in non-profits had been hired, and that a 2004 financial statement was to be posted presently. It never was. That was a year and a quarter ago. Why was this claim made... because BBV finances were questioned even then, because she had NOT produced what she had promised. She had not posted the results of the FOIAs. Still hasn't.

A year and a half after the election, I asked her how many of the FOIAs were complied with. I could not squeeze out an answer, except that she says "Our working system for this has been to have a giant dry erase board in the office listing the jurisdictions, status, and which ones are the "hot" ones for additional follow up, along with the staff assignment." Can I get a print out? No. Is it online? No. Is there a computer database/spreadsheet you can send me? No. There is a dry-erase board in the office.

She claims that she will provide certain specific limited information if I explain why I want it. She points out that I am not a donor to her organization.

I REQUESTED THE FOIA compliance/non compliance data. I have gotten zero. I have requested 990 information and have gotten zero.

Don't you think, as a 501c(3), she would be anxious and pleased to show her donors and the public her finances in order to SHOW that donor faith was well placed???

But no. I wait.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #105
112. The question at hand is is BBV.org, not these others, but:
"Verified Voting has their 2004 and 2005 990's on file" ~Quote from Bev Harris on her site.

VoteTrustUSA was formed in February 2005. Their filing will be due 5-1/5 months following the end of their fiscal year.

Voters Unite is NOT a 501c(3) organization, so it is moot.

Why did you ask about these organizations, anyway? Have you requested copies of their 990s, as I have of BBV???

So where is Bev's 990?? I wait.

And wait.



And wait.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #105
113. Since you asked, further on Vote Trust USA:
Edited on Sat Jun-10-06 09:57 PM by troubleinwinter
VoteTrustUSA's IRS filing is incorporated in the International Humanities Center's 990 because VTUSA is classified as a project of IHC's 501c3

International Humanities Center
Malibu, CA 90265

This organization is a 501(c)(3) Public Charity.
This organization is not required to file an annual return with the IRS because its income is less than $25,000.

Additional narrative information in this report was last supplied by the organization on November 6, 2005.


Had you sent a request for their filing? I sent one to BBV. I wait.
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. No, I sincerely doubt they are super rich
because I've seen how they live and know how much they've sacrificed.

I think this is a strange obsession given how much is wrong with the evendors and polticians these days that have gone unchallenged.

I know, let's see if Moveon has a Swiss bank account while we keep a blind eye to McPherson's office to RonP despite the news about Diebold lobbyists tossing their loot hither and yon.

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 12:09 AM
Response to Reply #115
116. I think maybe it's time to set the hookah down for the evening, eh?
In other words, what the fuck?!
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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #116
118. Sounds like she's off her meds...
...or on them.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #116
120. I would like to retract this statement, and apologize to everyone here...
It was a foolish comment. I should have said "Tequila shots", not hookah.

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benburch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 12:15 AM
Response to Reply #115
117. Did you just make ANY sense?
What is the color of the sky on the world where you are now?

That was a totally non-sequitur response.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 12:27 AM
Response to Reply #117
119. Aint never made a bunch of sense from the git-go.
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Just WTFisWTF Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #103
121. Sorry, I don't understand yet
I take it she must have some sort of charity or non profit since you are talking about a 990 and donations. I thought she only had 30 days to respond from the time you made your request?
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Just WTFisWTF Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #101
106. I'm confused
One person says good things and one person says bad things. Maybe this Rob guy is bad, but this Bev Harris lady looks like she is very unpopular around here so she must be bad news too, right? How do I know what to believe? Is there a search function?

Maybe I should stay out of this, but I'm fascinated and like to read up on crooks and scammers. I've got a lot to learn I guess.

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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #106
108. Bottomline
Look at achievement and motives. For example:

When you look at the debate of whether Bev Harris (founder of BBV) is an evil, consider:

Achievement by BBV: investigations into how easy Diebold is to rig

Motive to Discredit BBV: Poor sales for Diebold products (and possibly for the vote rigging biz)

Whereas the promoters of this fake BBV watchdog website, you say they are truth tellers, consider:

Achievemtn of BBV Watch Dog: Discredit the validity of equipment failures discovered by Joan Krawitz (VoteTrust), Bev Harris (BBV) and Ian Hoffman (Oakland Tribune)

Motive to discredit watch dog group: They think there is something fundamentally wrong with the equipment vendor's PR person to write provide "watch dog" services. Most would probably think an independent source should do this task. For instance is we knew Consumer Reports was owned by Ford's PR person, we might not believe its analysis of Ford products were unbiased.

Bottomline: I can see there is a concerted effort to throw doubt over the whole thing as a he said, she said.

And most of us around here are much smarter than that. And most of those who are not, remind me of the quote Al Gore offers in his Inconvenient Truth (and I forget who it is attributed to) that said something to the effect of, Don't expect people to understand something when their livelihood depends on not understanding it.

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #106
109. Try this:
Until someone shows up with the whole list of links for you to read all about the history of Bev's insanity (I'm sure someone will shortly), which will take many hours, if not days to read....

If you are interested in election integrity, why not go to one or more of the many organizations involved in the work, rather than wasting your time getting embroiled in an organization that revolves around ONE individual person.

Why concern yourself with a person who has burnt down and pissed off Randi Rhodes, Keith Olbermann and Thom Hartman (people who tried to support us on the issue)?

Why concern yourself with someone who is known for antics that alienate the very people who we NEED on our side... elections officials who truly do want to do the right thing?

Why bother about a person who has alienated and burned most of the truly effective and hard-working election reform activists?

Bev is not worth your time. The issue IS. There are many fine organizations truly worthy of your support and involvement. Hers is focused on BEV.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #109
110. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-10-06 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #106
114. HERE ya go. Bev history.
Links: http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Kelvin%20Mace...

~A basic education on the insanity and waste of time that Bev Harris is to those who care about election integrity. How she burnt sndsmeared associates, activists, media and officials who wanted to help our cause. How she promotes herself while incessantly soliciting money. Happy reading. You can save a whole bunch of time by just joining one of the many legitimate organizations and ignoring the Cult of The SheSELF.

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Just WTFisWTF Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-11-06 02:28 AM
Response to Reply #114
122. OMG what a joke!
How can anyone take anything she does seriously?

Has anyone recently confronted her? Would it be ok if I posted some of this at her site and demanded answers?

And I haven't even begun to look at the links in that journal you sent me to, but just reading the summary was enough to make wonder JUST WTF!!??!!??
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-12-06 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #122
123. You don't take the Hursti hack seriously?
Why not?
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Just WTFisWTF Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 03:07 PM
Response to Reply #123
126. I don't understand it
But what I do understand after checking out all those links is that this woman has a lot of enemies, and they all seem to be saying the same thing over and over - she's a grifter, she's mentally unstable, she's only in this for herself, she wasn't the first person to find this code she supposedly found back in 2003, she burned all sorts of activists, and so much more.

I don't see how anyone can trust anything she is involved in after reading all these things.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #101
125. Bev is not a con artist.
Black Box Voting has done as much good work for election reform as any other organization.

You can argue that she has personality traits or whatever, but to say she's a con artist is absolutely ridiculous.

I can say with 100% confidence that much of the progress that has been made in election reform has been a result of the work of Black Box Voting.

One very simple undisputable example is that Pennsylvania decertified Diebold Optical Scanners as a DIRECT RESULT of the Hursti Hack. In fact, in their report where they make the decertification official, they reference the Hursti Hack.

If it weren't for BBV, those machines would still be in use in PA.

Other things undisputable - CA would not have temporarily decertified Deibold earlier this year. The CA SoS would not have called for independent testing which verified the vulnerability and has been used in countless studies now to prove the machines are not secure.

so anyone who says she's a con artist is just flat wrong. If she's a con artist, she's doing a terrible job because instead of conning people she's having a positive effect on election reform.
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Just WTFisWTF Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 03:19 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. I admire your guts
But opinions aside, I don't see how you can deny what everyone else says about her.

I'm certainly not the expert here. I'm sure there is a lot I have to learn, for example, if she is such a great force for changing what's wrong, why don't other people defend her? I see a lot of people in some of the other threads that are very enthusiastic about this topic, and yet none of them are commenting in this (what do you call it?) section.

Another example, I would think that if someone proved that a Diebold employee was the owner of this blackboxwatchdog.com site, and was also posting here at Democratic Underground pretending to be someone else, that all sorts of people would be both outraged and complimentary of Bev Harris's research - but look around, hardly anyone cares, so I guess I have no choice but to think that the reason no one cares is because it was all baloney.

Perhaps that's her middle name.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #127
132. "everyone else" doesn't say that stuff about her
for those of us who check facts and don't only look at DU for election reform information, we know that there's another side to this story. virtually all the leaders in this movement, from Mark Crispin Miller, Bob Fitrakis, Ion Sancho, Brad Friedman, and many others regularly site BBV's work and evidence. And for a good reason. It's good stuff. It has had a very positive affect on our efforts to push for reform.

The attacks on BBV are highly concentrated here in DU, and many of them are coming from people who hide behind the veil of being anonymous. Some of the accusations simply do not pan out if you follow up on them. In fact I have seen blatant lies by the people who do nothing but criticize BBV. If you go out of DU, and check the various websites run by experts, they have no qualms about linking to BBV.

I'm not going to get into a flame war about this. It's been done over and over again. But to say that "everyone else" says these things about her, is completely false.


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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #132
135. Bev burnt out alot of the people that came to DU for election reform info.
I started out on DU in the '04 election forum, but mostly steer clear of the election reform forum precisely BECAUSE of the people she sends here from her forum, pimping for her. When I saw the attempts to rehab her being fed to the GD & GDP forums, I stared to look in to see what was going on & saw good DUers being thumped on for speaking truth. I don't like seeing it, so I've started keeping an eye out for the propaganda threads. Does that make me a 'paid troll' like her booster club likes to call others? I'm not an 'anonymous' poster - I use my name here. And like Bev, I know a few lawyers too. She feels free to smear & attack while expecting everyone else to sit down & shutup or she'll dumpster dive them? She likes to post private info & out prison records - when will she be honest & post @ her own run-ins w/lawbreaking? She would put anyone elses IRS/police run-ins on the web - where's hers? It's all a part of proving credibility, so let's see hers. To paraphrase herself - 'Little lies (& omissions) tell big stories about people's character.' Most of the bevbot defenders are BBV posters, doing their best to rewrite her history here & rehabilitate her after SHE brought discredit on her own name. Most are not long-time DUers (whom have mostly cut her ass loose a long time ago) - but rather her own little private 'anonymous veil' infiltrators (nice touch that anonymous reference - seen Bev use it myself ... ON HER OWN FORUM!). DUers that were strung along & pumped for cash w/every breathless, breaking, 'you can say fraud' post she made. They have every damn right to have an opinion & state it forcefully, w/out being smeared w/the crap @ being paid Diebold employees, etc! It's NOT DUers that are repeatedly infesting her site, I remind you.

If the woman is so 'in the forefront' why the hell does she keep returning to the scene of her meltdown - we're useless tools, after all!? As far as attacks being concentrated on DU, you left out her talking point @ dKOS & the admins of both sites as being suspect of ... whatever! Concerning your statement - 'But to say that "everyone else" says these things about her, is completely false.' She, herself, has stated that alot of the people in the movement has cut her off - while, of course, never taking possession of the idea that she caused it. It's always, ALWAYS, a conspiracy out to get her ... w/a call for her forum to go forth & defend her honor. What bullshit! There may be some that do work w/her - bully for them. But you are being disingenuous by claiming "virtually all" of the leaders hold her in high esteem (btw, are you referencing BradBlog as a leader? Okaaayyyyy - if you count her second home away from bbv home as a leader. All I see is a pitiful 'enquirer/globe' type site that posts news from other investigatory news places & calls it 'breaking' news. Personally, I'd give him more credence & respect if he wasn't so far up bev's butt. There is a place on the net for that, I can even enjoy them on occasion. But I don't confuse them w/real leadership on an issue or movement - others mileage may vary!).

You're damn right DU is no longer the hive of activity on election fraud it once was ... & your buddy is no small part of the cause - I watched her bring DU & election fraud damned near to it's knees after 04. And if she would quit sending her 'anonymous' people here to post for her (& she herself under her many & various 'anonymous' guises!) this forum might have a chance at bringing other DUers back into it. She wants credit so bad - well there's some for her ... hope she chokes on it!

I do think that you are sincere, garybeck - I've read your postings since you first came onboard DU, & have either enjoyed &/or learned from most them. I also think, in this case, you are wrong. I don't think that DU (or non_bev_worshiping DUers) is the boogeyman you seem to see ... the posters that warn newbies @ bev are just as credible & sincere as you are, & light years moreso than Bev. Posting truth is NOT 'attacks' - I've seen, by far, many more smears, attacks & lies coming from her & her booster club. DU is the point that most of the 'educating' that I've seen first emanated from - & it was from many DUers that were 'on it' ... not just her royal hineyness. (Immature? yes - she so brings out the best in me!). DUers that she would have been lost w/input from. DUers that speak up now & are 'attacked'. They have the creds - in my opinion.

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #125
128. They are still in use in PA!
Penn. only decertified the precinct count op scanner. The central count one is still certified even though the test unit only counted Republican votes correctly! And the DREs are still certified too.

Precinct count op scan is still one of the best ways to count votes if the proper precautions are taken. Often times they aren't but that's another issue.

In Leon County, FL, Ion Sancho's territory, they are moving from scanned paper ballots to paperless DREs. It might not matter too much because in FL, they're not allowed to hand count the paper anyway. But it could matter to a lot to the voters if those DREs break down and they are forced to wait on line all day to get access to the electronic ballot which replaced their paper-based system. And now FL wants to forbid their county elections officials from testing their own machines without state supervision!

Look, I have nothing against hacking tests, in principle, but there have clearly been unintended consequences as a result of what they've done.

The press it has generated may be good for the movement, but I don't see how any election system has been made any safer as a result.

I mean the recommendation to lock up memory cards isn't exactly brain surgery and that's the main outcome of demonstrating memory card attacks.

Meanwhile, PA and FL STILL allow paperless e-voting and in fact they ENCOURAGE it.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #128
140. NO, they are NOT in use.
I did not say that the central tabulator was decertified. the precinct scanners, which are the exact machines tested in the Hursti Hack organized by BBV, have been decertified, and in the decertification notice it satates clearly that the Hursti Hack is the reason they were decertified.

the scanners in the polling places can easily be used to rig elections, as demonstrated by Hursti. Thanks to Hursti and BBV, and Leon Sancho, they are not in use in PA, and we here in Vermont are able to use this decertification as a precedent we should follow. Thank you BBV.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. Let me get this straight....
Edited on Wed Jun-14-06 01:23 PM by Bill Bored
...you think it's easier to rig an election on precinct-count scanners than to do it on a central count scanner (where the voter doesn't even get over- or under- vote notification), or PAPERLESS DREs? Because the central count scanners (NOTE I said SCANNERS -- NOT tabulators) and the PAPERLESS DREs are what were certified in PA.

So because of the Hursti hack, anyone considering Diebold products for their polling sites in PA will now have to buy PAPERLESS DREs instead of precinct-count paper ballot scanners.

Now all I'm saying is that this is an UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE of the Hursti hack #1. And that's being generous. There may be reasons why it was actually intended, but I won't go there.

The point is that there will be some replacements of auditable technology that can be tested, with other stuff that cannot be audited or tested.

VVPATs are ILLEGAL in PA. Scanners with paper ballots are not. But now they can't buy Diebold scanners which limits their choices to only a few scanners, and LOTS of DREs, including Diebold's.

So what's your plan for VT? Replace your Diebold scanners with ES&S, or will you hand count your paper ballots or count them centrally?

Maybe you should ponder this first:
Would Hursti #1 be detected by scanning a TEST DECK ? ? ?
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #141
145. no, i never said that.
I don't know where you're coming up with this... you say:

"...you think it's easier to rig an election on precinct-count scanners than to do it on a central count scanner "

No, I do not think it's easier. I never said anything remotely close to that. I only said that the precinct scanners can easily be used to rig elections. The fact of the matter is, here in vermont the memory cards are sent back to LHS/Diebold for every election, so it would be VERY easy for them to do it the

As a vermonter, the reason I am very happy about the PA situation is because we only have Diebold opscans here. If I can convince our SoS to decertify them it would be a very significant thing becausae they can't go to DREs instead. And when I send a copy of the PA decertification notice to my SoS and I put a red circle around the part that shows what they are decertifying and why, I am putting a circle around the name Harri Hursti.

Does that explain?

I did not say precinct scanners are easier to rig than anything else. But I will say this-- one could argue that since the memory cards are sent back every time, it's hard to think of something easier than pre-programming the election results right there and then. It's one of the easiest scenarios there is. But that's besides the point.

IMHO, the bottom line is, anytime ANY electronic voting machine system gets decertified or is given a bad rating by a SoS, it's a good thing. I realize that in PA they are using more DREs now because of how it affected their state. But I don't think we've seen the last of what's going to play out in PA. There are some well organized citizens there who are very pissed off.

peaceout
gary
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 05:16 PM
Response to Reply #145
150. PA is finished. Stick a fork in it; it's done! (But I hope I'm wrong!)
Edited on Thu Jun-15-06 05:18 PM by Bill Bored
Every time they sued to have a paper "trail" on their DREs, they LOST.

They weren't even allowed to keep lever machines in Pittsburgh.

Their only hope was to convince as many elections officials as possible to go with optical scan so there could at least be some testing and recounts. You've already conceded that the Hursti hack made this more difficult to do.

As far as Vermont, you can mitigate the risk of memory cards being sent back to LHS/Diebold for every election by doing proper logic and accuracy tests, can't you? The Hursti hack was detected by hand counting a handful of ballots. That's how they could tell the mock election was rigged. Don't you think it would have been detected by running a test deck of hundreds of ballots?

If LHS is doing your Election Configurations, your problem seems to be that you've privatized your elections in Vermont. No equipment change can mitigate that risk. What you need are bi-partisan teams of at least 2 people from each county auditing this entire process or doing it themselves. This includes the Election Configuration, the L&A tests and some kind of random audit of the results and transparent aggregation of the precinct totals. Not new scanners.

What do you think switching from Diebold Scanners to Sequoia or ES&S will achieve? Unless you're going for HCPB, I don't see the difference between Brand X and Brand Y. As long as your elections are privatized, the citizens do not have control of them. By focusing on one vendor because we happen to have some information about them, we ignore all the rest at our peril.

See Doug Jones' latest.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
It's not ONLY about Diebold.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #140
144. Gary, it's wonderful that the Hursti hack got mileage.

But the fact is that it's the reason VVPAT-less DRE's will be used in a number of places.

If you can walk and chew gum at the same time, you'll be able to live with these two facts.

Here's another one. There is a "hack" that could be tested without violating any contract with a vendor, or getting a BoE into trouble. That "hack" would apply equally to DRE's, not just OpScan.

I would have been thrilled had those been demonstrated for Sancho and Funk.

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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #144
146. k, so what's that hack?
"Here's another one. There is a "hack" that could be tested without violating any contract with a vendor, or getting a BoE into trouble. That "hack" would apply equally to DRE's, not just OpScan."

lay it on me
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #146
148. Here? No.

But re-read my post and think about it.

Here's a hint. I believe they happen by accident, as well.

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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jun-16-06 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #148
152. You want to get the machines PREGNANT?
"Here's a hint. I believe they happen by accident, as well."
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 12:27 PM
Response to Original message
124. Hats off to BBV. This is very important. Kick.
My SoS (Dem) still says things like "Diebold is a reputable company and we have no reason to not trust them."

Well she's going to get a few copies of this report and a demand for a response. There is no reason we should trust a company that does things like this.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 05:45 PM
Response to Reply #124
129. Maybe because your SoS thinks Diebold is more reputable than Bev Harris?
:hide:
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #129
130. not likely.
the facts are on BBV's side. independent testing has confirmed the hursti hack. the SoS is ignoring the facts. BBV is more credible than Diebold anyway.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #130
131. "...more credible than Diebold" is a pretty low standard.
Just saying.
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #131
147. an SoS shouldn't blindly trust BBV or Diebold.
they get paid to protect us voters, and provide secure systems. if BBV comes out with a report like they have, the SoS should check it out and see if it's credible. Like McPherson did. Unfortunately he did the wrong thing after he checked it out, but what I'm saying is, it's not a matter of my SoS trusting Diebold or BBV any more or less than the other.

In my case there is something strange going on because my SoS incessantly defends Diebold as if questioning their integrity is a crime in intself. very strange.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 02:25 AM
Response to Reply #147
149. Read Jones

http://www.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/voting/VSRW06.pdf

It ain't simple. But it's not particularly complex. Er, no more than human psychology.

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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-15-06 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #149
151. Jones saves the best for last. Read his paper.
Here's one point I would like to hammer home:

Currently, there are very few contexts where it is legal for a security
researcher to demonstrate a security vulnerability on current voting systems. Where occasional
rare election officials such as Ion Sancho in Leon County Florida or Bruce Funk of Emery
County Utah have allowed security experts to examine systems, they have been subject to
threats of lawsuits and they have faced significant disciplinary actions. We must create a legal
way for security experts to demonstrate voting system vulnerabilities without fear of retribution.


It makes no sense to me that election officials who are charged with protecting the sanctity of our vote have no legal means to examine the internal workings of these machines.

To put this problem in the most basic terms it is actually against the law for your election officials to know how your vote is being counted.

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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 07:23 PM
Response to Reply #124
133. the proof is in the puddin' as they say. . .
and the innumerable actions for our common cause that BBV has provided is more important than the cult of personality perpetuated by people seeking to discredit her actions by discrediting her personality.

Despite what Americans have learned by getting their news from Entertainment Tonight, it is actions, actions, actions that lead to solutions for our common cause and NOT whether or not Bev is a diva that is important.

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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #133
134. The Puddin': North Carolina vs. California
Edited on Tue Jun-13-06 09:24 PM by Boredtodeath
Compare and contrast Bev Harris in California and Joyce McCloy in NC:

In NC where activists spent all their time doing the grunt work of activism and not wasting their time with "fundraising", grandstanding, writing reports, and constantly smearing critics.

- S223 was passed to protect voters from paperless voting.

- 76% of the state is now OpScan.

- Diebold tried to get the law overturned. Activists sued and won.

- Diebold left the state and refuses to sell to NC (S223 required the CEO to sign a sworn affidavit that the code certified by the state would be used in the election. Violation of the law is a felony, so Diebold left).

- Any vendor selling to the state must reveal its source code.

- Any vendor selling to the state must reveal any bug/defect in their code as soon as it is discovered (failure is a criminal offense).

- Mandatory VVPB for DREs

- Manadatory random hand-eye recounts of precincts after the election.

- If paper and digital count differ, paper is the vote of record.

- Number of people smeared to accomplish this: ZERO
- Number of reporters attacked: ZERO
- Number of election officials supporting our view: 76%
- Number of legislatures who voted for S223: Unanimous passage in both houses.
- Amount of money raised for this effort: ZERO


Bev's accomplishments in California.

- She filed a lawsuit against Diebold, and she, Jim March and her lawyer Lowell Finley walked away with about $75K a piece. Diebold promises to be a good voting machine company and never do that again.

- Diebold and DREs still in California.

- No new law.

- Source of critical information for Bev's lawsuit facing three felony charges.

- Lawsuit settled WITH prejudice, meaning evidence brought to suit may never be used against Diebold in the future.

- Nationally, the only law to come out of the whole anti-BBV effort is OPPOSED by Bev.

- Amount of money raised for this effort: At least $1 million

- People smeared (accused of working for Diebold, accused of self-enrichment, accused of lying, fired, harassed, etc): Andy Stephenson, Avi Rubin, Doug Jones, David Dill, Rebecca Mercuri, Randi Rhodes, Skinner, John Kerry, BartCop.com, Democrats.com, DU, Joyce McCloy, Maddy McCall, TroubleinWinter, Roxanne, and dozens more.

- Reporters abused: Kim Zettner (Wired), Rachel Konrad (AP), John Schwartz (NYT), Keith Olberman (MSNBC) and many others from smaller newspapers.
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #134
136. Puddin' indeed! This reads more like an indictment (if only!) to me.
This point is a biggie w/me:

- Lawsuit settled WITH prejudice, meaning evidence brought to suit may never be used against Diebold in the future.

Sumbitches have spread all over CA like cockroaches since then.

Bravo for the real action activists in NC!

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Just WTFisWTF Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #134
137. Was all of that in only one week?
Do you think it would be ok if I went to her site and asked her about all of this?
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Boredtodeath Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-13-06 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #137
138. No, not a week
a lot of hard work over a long period.

As for asking Bev, I think you might find her "real" personality if you do that. ROFL.

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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #138
139. Good luck.
I lasted all of about 9 hours on the site (having registered there only AFTER she posted my personal information on her site publicly in April... name and location, later scrubbed to be a bit more innocuous). Then she banned me from her site.

She outed my information because of my DU post stating that FOIA results were not available on her site a year & a half after the funding solicitations.

Pertinent portion of my original DU post:

To this date, a year and a half after the election, I cannot find an accounting of how many FOIAs were sent, how many were/were not complied with fully or partially.


After she wasted a hundred 'brazilian' words where I was invited to sift through 100,000s of pages, none of which answered my question, I asked again...

Is this to say that only five counties out of 3000 have complied, all of them in Forida? Evidently at this point three counties' documents are posted.

Volusia
Palm Beach
Pinellas
Lucas (docs were lost and replacements have not been scanned or reposted)
Broward (have not been scanned or posted)

Perhaps there is a more complete list you can direct me to.


She responds:

Our working system for this has been to have a giant dry erase board in the office listing the jurisdictions, status, and which ones are the "hot" ones for additional follow up, along with the staff assignment. In additiona, we have an Excel spreadsheet -- two, actually, we don't have the stuff consolidated onto one, for boring reasons.


I try again:

Is there a database listing each FOIA and which have been complied with, and/or or responed to? Surely there must be a tally of some sort.


After more nonsense, I try again:

My query is simple: How many responses were received to the FOIAs regarding election 11/02/04? Which complied or gave other responses?


And again:

Why is this like pulling teeth? It seems an obvious and clear-cut question. HOW MANY FOIAs WERE COMPLIED WITH? HOW MANY WERE NOT?


And again:

I have already indicated my qestion: "My query is simple: How many responses were received to the FOIAs regarding election 11/02/04? Which complied or gave other responses?" I have managed to divine from your site that six counties, all in Florida, responded, and four have been posted. That is the extent of information I have been able to distill down thus far.


One of her more typical responses:

"How many FOIAs were complied with and how many were not" is not answerable without establishing definitions as to what qualifies as "complied with." We can set those definitions if you provide information on what you need the information for.


You won't get any answers. It's just pissing in the wind to try. She seems to think that providing this sort of information to the public (who funded the effort) is a waste of time, because she has "six things to do before breakfast".

You will get a great many words.... thousands. But likely no answers.

Really, were I you, I'd save my energy. Go work with the organizations that are truly working on the issue. Don't waste your time.
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Einsteinia Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #124
142. Hats off to GaryBeck!
For not caving to the mob mentality
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Jigarotta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-27-06 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #142
158. there are a few of us around.
thanks for your clear and sensible responses. Appreciated amid all the din.
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troubleinwinter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-14-06 07:04 PM
Response to Original message
143. A new thread that many here may find interesting
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Just WTFisWTF Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
153. Well I need to apologize
It appears I have been misled. This report on Robert Pelletier and his secret operation is solid. I went through each step of the research, found it all to be true as reported, and even found some additional evidence that was not mentioned in the report. Therealrobp and his wife have taken down photos of their house from her journal, but the photos can still be found thanks to Google cache links.

The NC Beach Girl evidence is what really opened the door to additional discoveries. I discovered many people posting today that also posted alongside NC Beach Girl, and all of them were doing the same thing. I found a few things that don't make sense yet. I guess this is like a big mystery novel. Maybe I should stop reading, but it's almost irresistable.

I no longer believe that Bev Harris is a bad person. Instead I believe that there is a large group of people who pretend to be interested in election fraud, just like NC Beach Girl did, but don't really care. All they seem to care about is harrassing her. If they really cared about election fraud, I would think they would give credit where credit is due. This report, for example, is amazing. It proves that a Diebold employee is fooling people online.

He is not alone in this.
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-17-06 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #153
154. Gee, another energy wasting mystery involving Bev Harris...
How does that keep happening?
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ebayfool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-18-06 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #154
155. Somebody keeps leaving the door open?
I hate when that happens!
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Jigarotta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
160. kick
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garybeck Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-28-06 01:29 PM
Response to Original message
161. kick
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