We have a deadline. Can we meet it?

[MelissaB]

Those ballots in Ohio will be distroyed this November. Do you think this Rolling Stone article can/will bring enough attention to the issue that there will be enough pressure to finally get to those ballots/machines? Is it even possible now?

[bleever]

1. Five votes before the first reply. That's how urgent this is.

Preserve the evidence.

Fitrakis? Arnebeck? Cobb, or the Green Party?


:kick:

[nashville_brook]

3. now is the time for an end-run for the evidence!

how to get the word out?

[nashville_brook]

2. whats the specifics -- is there anyone in particular we can pressure?

[MelissaB]

4. Well, I'm wondering the same thing. I'm scared of my guess:

J. Kenneth Blackwell

I posted this hoping somebody would know what to do and how to go about it.

[nashville_brook]

6. seems like LITIGATION is the obvious answer

can't we SUE to see the election results?

[nashville_brook]

5. can this be tied to the NOE case?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x430855

(from the Noe thread)
Federal prosecutors said they also plan to seek additional penalties because of the potential loss of public confidence in the presidential-election process.

[emlev]

7. Where's the link to the other thread on this? Will someone post?

Thanks.

[MelissaB]

8. The Rolling Stone article

linked on DU here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1328708

[emlev]

9. That's not the link I meant.

There's another thread--maybe ModMom started it--about the need for help getting evidence preserved in Ohio. Can't find it. It would be good to link to it prominently in this thread.

[DemReadingDU]

18. Is this the thread?

#215 MOST IMPORTANT SENTENCE OF THE ARTICLE!!
"On November 2nd of this year, on the second anniversary of the election, state officials will be permitted under Ohio law to shred all ballots from the 2004 election."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1328708&mesg_id=1333579

then there are a few threads under this that discuss preserving evidence

[emlev]

21. Nope, there was more to it than that

I'll PM ModMom and ask her.
Thanks for trying.

[Kip Humphrey]

10. Kerry. Ask Rev. Bill Moss's widow to write him a plea to join a

coalition with VoteTrustUSA, Ohio chapter of League of Women Voters, Common Cause, Green Party, others.

Jon Bonifaz might help make contacts too.

File for an injunction in State court. We need a good reason though. Maybe a citizen lawsuit to complete the recount? I'm no lawyer. We need a lawyer. Is Paul Lehto in the house?

[PuraVidaDreamin]

12. This weekend is the Mass Dem. State Convention...A perfect time

for Jon Bonifaz to expound on this RFKJ article. If he captures
the 15% necessary to get on the ballot.

[Melissa G]

11. O kay, let's come up with a plan..Where's our legal counsel, Landshark?

Where is our advice from the Ohio contingent..If they do not show up, let's pm them....

[robinlynne]

13. Melissa, I just wrote to Paul, aka LandShark, asking what we can do.

Here is his answer:

there's a federal statute that says they can be destroyed in 22 months, which is September 06, two months prior to the election. RFK Jr is saying under OHIO law they will be destroyed in November.

Make a FOIA request not too long before the deadline, August 20 or so. Write a letter of your intent to do so in case they are just looking for "work" to do during the long slow lazy days of summer.

OK to pass this on if you want, important distinction between 22 month federal and 24 month (apparently) in Ohio. BTW it's worth observing that 22 months means that there is never TWO federal elections (general) of data hanging around. Scientifica researchers (like when I teamed up with a scientist) would love to have "longitudinal" data from more than one election!!

[MelissaB]

17. That's what I wanted to know. Now I have more questions.

Do we wait a little while and see what happens or go ahead and file?

Should I do it or someone from Ohio? If it's me somebody will have to walk me though this because I'm legally challenged. :)

Does anybody have any idea how much this will cost?

[AtLiberty]

24. Because it's a federal election....

Any U.S. citizen can make the request to Ohio.

Send the request certified mail.

[bleever]

14. Kick.

I've PMed the DU Ohioans who are ERD folks, but I probably forget some.

[roseBudd]

15. Check with Ray Beckerman

[druidity33]

16. K&R for the morning crowd... n/t

[In Truth We Trust]

19. K&R Sue the rat bastards. Get local/national ACLU involved!

[Heywood J]

20. Where are these things stored?

I mean, are they somewhere where Blackwell and his cronies can deface or "disappear" the incriminating parts of evidence before the deadline? I have this sneaking feeling that even if we do manage to win a lawsuit or otherwise gain access, all we'll have is whitewashed crap. They have had two years to scrub or throw out...

[Kurovski]

22. Kick to the top.(nt)

[AtLiberty]

23. Not November...the deadline is September!

Election materials from a federal election are required to be held 22 months.

A federal judge would need to be convinced that an extension is necessary to issue a restraining order. To do that, evidence of fraud must be presented.

My guess is that a lot of materials from that election have already been destroyed, particularly memory card data. grrrrrrrrrrr...

[FogerRox]

25. YES .......... 22 months

[MelissaB]

26. I'd like for LandShark, hedda_foil, and others who have experience

with issues like this to weigh in.

Is this something we should pursue?

Do you think the ballots have already been "scrubbed"?

What would/could we do with the ballots if we got access?

Please share anything you are thinking about this issue right now. I know those who have been though this will be realistic.

Thanks in advance. :hi:

[hedda_foil]

27. Unfortunately, it's unlikely it will go anywhere.

The Green Party had FOIA requests out in every county during the recount fight. Blackwell locked down the county election officials from releasing them. A few were obtained by other groups before that happened, but I haven't heard anything further about it. I doubt that the ballots can be pried out of the state at this late date. And it's the state that has to be FOIA'ed, because the states control their own elections.

The upshot of the situation is that nothing will change the '04 results at this point, as the Electoral College is all that counts in the end, and Bush clearly won the electoral college, however it was done.

Is it worth a try to get the ballots now? I can't answer that question. Will some or all have been scrubbed, law or no law? It's certainly possible. I know that New Mexico wanted to scrub their machines within a month or so of the election and were only prevented in a couple of counties by activists who were sent out with copies of the law and injunctions to present to the county election officials who were going to do the scrubbing.

The cost of obtaining copies of all the ballots (if it's possible to obtain them at all) would be enormous. In the hundreds of thousands of dollars. And that's before anyone starts to look at them.

hedda

[MelissaB]

30. That's exactly what I needed to know.

I'm so grateful for the Green's for what they did after the election. I'm just one middle aged woman in Alabama sitting at a computer wondering what I can do. I don't want to see another stolen election and want to see this one exposed in the press.

I'm frustrated!

Thank you so much for responding. :hi:

[livvy]

31. Why do there have to be copies requested?

I thought the point would be to just have the originals retained.
Not trying to be pissy, but without Ohio, the little nitwit would not have had the electoral college vote.

[kpete]

28. I feel so helpless

Such a huge story, so much work, and it what does the media say...

The usual - nothing to see here..

Melissa, any marching orders? I am in California doing what I can.

Not a lawyer, but I am a rabid gopher!

[MelissaB]

29. I feel helpless, too,

and hopeless. I think only a lot of media attention and somebody with a lot of $$ and somebody already organized can help. :cry:

[livvy]

32. I don't feel helpless. I'm starting to feel more and more pissed.

I think I've reached my tipping point as far as being patient about things getting set straight. I know what you mean about the helpless feeling, but, damn it, if we don't get things set straight, who the hell will?
Don't get depressed, get motivated. I have to keep bucking myself up, too. It's damn hard, but, this is a great little planet. Definitely worth the effort.

[SharonRB]

33. Hi, livvy

If my head explodes any more, I won't have one left. Every day brings more outrage.

:hi:

[livvy]

36. You got that right, roomie.

I am so beyond outraged, I can't even put it into words. The only good thing about it is, I don't feel very much alone anymore. Everyone I talk to about the way things are seems to be pissed. Not only that, but when I tell them about things the MSM doesn't cover, they listen, and believe. So where is the tipping point? How much longer do us "knowers" have to keep our tinfoil hats atop our noggins?

[SharonRB]

37. On most issues, I don't feel like I'm wearing one anymore

I feel like these things are really happening.

I do feel like I'm wearing one about the whole */Condi thing so far, though, and the fact that I think he's planning an attack on our own soil soon to garner support again.

We really need to plan a SE MI DU meetup this summer. As soon as you're done with school, let's talk and try to figure something out.

[Land Shark]

34. this is a classic example of how regulation is NOT NECESSARILY

"regulation". Rather, it legalizes improper activity like destroying ballots before people are really done with them.

ANother example is pollution. If a reg says 4 ppm is limit they have a strong argument not to be liable for 3.8ppm no matter how much cancer it may cause.

[understandinglife]

35. K&R.

Not One Line Of Software Between A Voter And A Valid Election

[mikelewis]

38. self-delete

I'm retarded