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"Why Now? Why did we have to wait so long?" re: Kerry and these motions

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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:02 PM
Original message
"Why Now? Why did we have to wait so long?" re: Kerry and these motions
Edited on Fri Feb-25-05 07:20 PM by WilliamPitt
You probably caught the new motions Kerry/Edwards filed in Ohio:

http://forum.truthout.org/blog/story/2005/2/24/183243/7...

The reaction to this I've been seeing a lot of is, "Why Now? Why did we have to wait so long?"

A thing election reformers need to accept and understand is that lawsuits, like legislation, take time. For example, the motion to preserve evidence in this Ohio matter was entered in December. It is now almost March, and the judge has yet to issue a ruling. Such a waiting period is fully and completely out of the hands of the attorneys for Cobb, Badnarik, Kerry and Edwards. Believe me, Arnebeck and Bonifaz are gnawing through their desks in anticipation, but there isn't a damned thing they or we can do but wait.

Did Kerry blow it by conceding too early? Obviously. I've spoken with several of the people who served as poll-watchers on behalf of Kerry in Ohio. The decision to concede was made before these people were debriefed. They were on buses, planes and trains hauling ass home so they could describe what they'd seen to their campaign representatives. That, and that alone, represents an incomprehensible and ultimately terminal blunder.

Now that it is in the courts, however, it is no longer about Kerry or who deserves to be in the Oval this term. It is about winning these cases and setting precedent that cannot be ignored. Winning these cases will take time, how much time being solely at the discretion of the judges and their clerks. That's just the fact.

It isn't about Kerry anymore, and frankly, hasn't been since he conceded. If they win the motion for preservation, they can get forensic examinations of the voting machines, along with sworn deposition testimony from Triad officials, local election officials, and even Mr. Blackwell himself. The importasnce of that cannot be overstated. If voting is to be rescued from privatization and the untested machine, the errors - both human and electronic - must be exposed. This motion, if successful, is a good step in that direction.

Granted, a lot of time has passed and crucial evidence could well have been wiped. But again, that is what happens with lawsuits. Cobb and Badnarik have been at this since early November, and they have been playing the exact same waiting game as the Kerry supporters out there. It isn't about any of these candidates anymore. It's about winning in court. This is the marathon.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. thanks for the story--i have not kept up on things lately
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. This Is Number One on My List
Get the truth and get rid of private interests in our Election process.
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rigel99 Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. you can also
check election code.. but in GA we have a clause that allows counties to vote on their own (without any SOS office oversight) to go back to any other form of voting technology versus electronic...

that's our strategy here.. county by county INVALIDATION of the Diebold technology (would be even better if the counties could sue)....

more on that later.....
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:14 PM
Response to Original message
3. Whoa Nelly.
When you start talking about "setting precedent that cannot be ignored", I think everything that I've seen done by the Bush admin. over the last 4+ years with another term just started and I have to wonder why any precedent would stop him.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but Bush and "whoever" haven't let the Constitution stop them. A legal precendent is pretty small in comparison.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. It's better than the alternative
unless you have another plan.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. My original plan was to win the election.
Bush out of the White House... Possibly a retroactive impeachment...

I wish them luck, but I don't have much hope that it will stop Bush.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Again
It is no longer about the last election, or about 'stopping Bush.' It's about reforming the way we run elections.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. Dear Will.
Some of us are wondering if there will even be another election, reformed or otherwise.

To be honest, Bush has gotten away with things that I would never have thought possible. We're asking ourselves how much further will he be willing to go over the next 4 years. How can we ever be sure that there will be another election?
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ashmanonar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #9
16. this is my worst nightmare.
:scared:
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rigel99 Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #6
21. FOR ME IT is
all about the last election. November 2, 2004.. the date that still lives in infamy....

without proving fraud BACKWARDS looking, you have no case for any future reform. You can't just skip over it like a babbling brook....You have to 'invalidate' the 2004 election. period. how you do it is still a mystery, but I suspect a nationwide scandal is enough. A court proven tampering of elections causing felonies to be handed out like candy.. I suspect that will invalidate the election (even if not procedurally, in the hearts and minds of US citizens who already know it to a large degree)...

here's what we learned last night when Cathy Cox our SOS of GA walked out of the room. 20 activists can shut down a gubenatorial campaign, and darn near get more attention from a wider audience, to even perhaps fight for election reform (election deception detection, is my favorite way of saying it)...... small groups of people in OH, in WA, in PA, in CA, in NM in GA, in FL are doing big things.. folks this is coming to a head, and yes, it's about the last election being stolen (and in GA about 2002 as well)..
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zann725 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
32. What about the millions starving/dying of hypothermia in cardboard box
homes this Winter (or the next 4), and/or irreversibly losing their lives and sole source of support (Social Security) these next four years and beyond...and the irreversible damage to our economy and the environment, and...and... which WILL certainly occur as we shift our focus from TRYING to return the WH to the rightful winner...to merely just wanting election reform? Then again, the IMMEDIATE needs of We the People can wait. After all, it is just the stuff Democracies were once made. No big deal.

For those comfortably Middle Class or better, the next four years and the four after that, etc. will be essentially uneffected whether or not the EF cases remain in Appeal, or whether the way elections are run are changed even marginally. And so most probably the process will not change substantially...let us not fool ourselves.

I've worked litigation, I know how long motions and appeals take to process. And I know about choosing judges (even in a fair venue), and shaping laws to fit the needs of the highest bidder.

With all due respect, the next time a brief is filed 'for posterity' in this, I'll try to pay my rent with it...from the job I just lost to outsourcing, or the Social Security check for the Disabled which will never again arrive due to privitization. These are IRREVERSIBLE commodities. And WHO sits in the White House the next four years (and who rightfully deserves to sit there) IMMEDIATELY and irreversibly effects the destiny of millions. It is sad to write all that off with the mere 'carrot' of possible election reform. But then, if I were comfortably Middle Class...four years, or eight years would be really no big deal.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 06:14 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. You said what I was trying to say much better than I could.
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WilliamPitt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. That's a nice sermon
You forgot to round it out with your immediate plan for getting Bush out and election reform.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
47. A 4 year plan is good.
But what about the people? What about now? Four years is a long time in this economy. I don't aspire to be a leader, that's for others, but I think leaders have to provide plan that shows a few, not necessarily many, but at least a few short range benefits to encourage as well as long range benefits if they expect to have people follow them.
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tinanator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
91. DO something
Food Not Bombs, Sleeping Bag projects, homeless advocacy and support.
Just about anything will help, as long as its not handing some panhandler some change. That accomplishes nothing and steals good intentions from those who need them most.
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Melissa G Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. I wonder about anti trust lawsuits in relation to voting monopolies?
Besides the obvious craziness of 2 Repub brothers counting 80% of our votes. We don't let two companies do much in this country without eventual lawsuits. Restraint of trade and all...
Any lawyers weighing in on this plan?
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #10
84. In 1999 Parts of BRC were sold to both AIS-- and--- ah I forget
the other company, I think it was Gloabal.

Because of Anti Trust pressures--IIRC.
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. From Lyns site-- http://www.ecotalk.org/VotingMachineCompanies.htm
Sequoia bought Business Records Corporation's optical scan vote tabulation business as part of a 1997 Dept. of Justice anti-trust action. JUSTICE DEPARTMENT REQUIRES VOTING MACHINE MANUFACTURERS TO SELL OFF VOTING TABULATION BUSINESS IN ORDER TO MERGE After the Department of Justice expressed concern about the possible anticompetitive effects of a merger between two voting machine manufacturers--American Information Systems and Business Records Corp.--Business Records agreed to sell its optical scan vote tabulation business to a third party. Optical scan vote tabulation equipment is used by state and local governments to run elections. Attorneys General from eight states--Texas, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Florida, Arizona, Washington, Rhode Island, and Pennsylvania--participated in the investigation.Omaha, Nebraska-based American Information Systems and Dallas-based Business Records are two of only three manufacturers of optical scan vote tabulation equipment in the U.S.Sequoia Pacific Systems of Exeter, California, a division of St. Louis, Missouri-based Smurfit Packaging Corp., will buy Business Records' optical scan vote tabulation business. Sequoia Pacific is a leading maker of direct recording electronic vote tabulation equipment with substantial experience in the elections business.Under the terms of the divestiture, Sequoia Pacific will immediately be able to compete for sales of such products."State and local governments--like any other consumers-- rely on competition to get fair prices," said Joel I. Klein, Assistant Attorney General in charge of the Department's Antitrust Division. "This divestiture preserves competition for voting machines, which is the best way to ensure that taxpayers and voters are protected from high prices and low quality."Optical scan vote tabulation equipment electronically counts and records ballots. This equipment differs from other types of vote tabulation equipment in several respects, most notably in its use of paper ballots, and is viewed by many state and local governments to be the preferred way to record votes accurately. Like most products sold to public entities, optical scan vote tabulation equipment is generally sold through a competitive bidding process.
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
7. Will, I'm respectfully asking a higher standard from you
If you think what the progressive community needs is to understand "that lawsuits, like legislation, take time" then we are aspiring to be a part of two different progressive communities.

There is nothing worth waiting for on the other side. We do not need to continue reinforcing the legitimacy of anything we know to be bunk (elections) and/or myth (democracy, capitalism, free speech, free press).

Be ruthlessly honest with yourself. It is tough. We are so used to being lied to that we routinely lie to ourselves.

Democracy in America is a myth. If you want to debate otherwise, the first volley of points back and forth reinforces the frame and ends the contest because it is not determined on balance. You can't be a little bit pregnant and in a democracy you can't have secret vote counts, "safe" congressional seats, free speech zones, unaccountable budgets (taxation without representation), etc.

Will, you have such an awesome reputation and your writing really is excellent. I hope you will not feel threatened or insulted by what I am saying. I just can't stand by and watch this anymore:
To the extent that you maintain mainstream credibility it is reflective of your ability to report objectively.

To the extent that you consider yourself an advocacy journalist, your message moves people in a particular direction.

To the extent that you are an American, doing the best he can to address awful circumstances, please be ruthlessly honest with yourself.
Please help people see that we don't have to reinforce the parts of the system that "hallowed Dems" are trying to fix. They are complicit in the creation and perpetuation of the myth. They are a false alternative and do not have as their interest the same things as We The People: re-balancing - power between citizens and government, control of the airwaves between community and corporation, the right to breathe and pollution for profit.

You can tell no lies and still not tell the truth.
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AtLiberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #7
8. GuvWurld, the fight for election reform must be done from all angles...
Edited on Fri Feb-25-05 07:52 PM by AtLiberty
The legal battle for election reform will move like geology. Meanwhile, the rest of us can kick and scream and organize and write and rally and storm.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. In addition, people who are clueless
about the last two elections can be informed this way. No, it's not the only way, and maybe not the best way, but a way to get the word out. If something can be proven in court to show that this election was not honest, we at least have an open door to the general public that we don't have now.

I'm just as frustrated as anyone else, and I'm very afraid we won't have the leadership we need to get through this. I'm very happy this step has been taken with the lawsuit, and I can only imagine the frustration of the people mentally/physically/emotionally involved this.

Thanks for you post, Will. I had been wondering, too.
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rigel99 Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. 3 pronged approach
LEGAL

LEGISLATIVE

GRASSROOTS Activism....

many lawsuits
many legislative angles hoping one works eventually
many / many / many in your face protests period.

we cannot let up, not for a single day.

i'm with guvworld on this one.. I feel my personal clock ticking every single day and frustrated with ACLU slowness and considering student lawyers who are aggressive and out of the box thinkers....
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #23
46. THE *LAW* IS WHAT HELPED GET US INTO THIS SITUATION
....THE *LAW* HAS BEEN INFILTRATED WITH REPUBLICANS *ALA THE SCOTUS* ON DOWN TO THE STATE AND LOCAL LEVELS TO SUCH A DEGREE...SO HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU FIGHT AGAINST THAT? THEY'VE TAKEN THE *LAW* AND MANIPULATED IT TO THEIR ADVANTAGE AND UNLESS THERE IS A MAJOR REVOLUTION TO TAKE DOWN THE RICH TWISTED FUCKS THEN WE CAN JUST FORGET ANYTHING CHANGING FOR THE BETTER. :nopity:


FORGIVE ME FOR SHOUTING....but I'm sick of the continued whining and crying and bitching about how things are gonna change....nothing at all is going to change until this corporate controlled gov't and lifestyle is COMPLETELY AND TOTALLY ABOLISHED....and sad but fuckin' true....IT WILL TAKE A LOT OF VIOLENCE TO ACCOMPLISH....s'all that's ever worked throughout history to MAKE REAL CHANGE HAPPEN. :(
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #46
51. You want a violent revolution? Not in my country, please
The fight is to turn this country around, wake up the people to what is going on, involve them in working toward a better future.

NOT to initiate a bloody civil war.
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 01:31 AM
Response to Reply #51
67. "NOT to initiate a bloody civil war"...........
......awwwwww hon....wake UP! :eyes: And don't say *i* didn't warn you! :eyes:
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L. Coyote Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #46
88. People may not change much, but the old die!!
Look to the youth for change.
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tommcintyre Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #88
92. "Progress rides in a hearse"
Somebody said that. I googled for who its attributed to, and found nothing. Nonetheless, it is so true.
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Blue Shark Donating Member (225 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 02:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
69. And 99 out of 100....
...United States Senators chose to be complicite in the theft of a national election.

...In choosing to certify the electoral votes of Ohio, they are, every one of them, acessories-after-the-fact in a Felonious scheme and failed in their duty to America miserably.

...Where is the OutRage?
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A Brand New World Donating Member (803 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 08:54 PM
Response to Original message
11. If these lawsuits keep Blackwell from being the next Ohio governor,
then at least it will accomplish something. As an Ohioan, I certainly could not bear to have President ** AND Governor Blackwell.
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 09:26 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. I agree! n/t
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. C'mon, I said higher standard, not be defensive
If you guys want to set the bar that low, you will rise only to that level at best. You talk about "at least it will accomplish something" and "a way to get the word out" and "kick and scream and organize and write and rally and storm" and I accept that your spirit and intent is change. But this is in disregard to whether we are being ruthlessly honest with ourselves about the nature of the challenges we face, AND it is missing both clarity and ambition toward a genuine optimistic vision for a peaceful and progressive future.

I have been writing about the No Confidence Movement since last April. There is no basis for confidence in the legitimacy of US federal elections. Like my earlier post, I invite debate. I've yet to have anyone argue that there IS a basis for confidence.

I recommend that we explicitly assert not only the concept of No Confidence, but also the increasing withdrawal of the Consent of the Governed. After all, is our consent ever really sought?

What I suggest is passing the No Confidence Resolution at as many City Councils as possible. The anti-Patriot Act resolutions now number over 300. Unfortunately, they still haven't restored our rights. No Confidence will be different because of the frame. With each additional resolution that is passed, the question is asked again: has the Consent of the Governed been withdrawn, YET?

After the first resolution the answer will be no as few will take notice. And after the second and fifth and probably the 10th resolution, the answer will still be no. But after 25 or 50 or 100 No Confidence Resolutions, at some point, the answer will switch from NO to YES, the Consent of the Governed has been withdrawn. We then would have a collection of communities reflecting a large pool of unified voices taking a ruthlessly honest position - conditions do not currently exist for US federal elections to be accepted without question; there is no reason to believe corporate media reports; there is no basis for confidence.

Like I said, I've been writing about this a lot since last April and encourage everyone to see this strategy and talking points primer, as well as this collection of local media coverage from here in Humboldt County, CA. They are in the GuvWurld blog and news archive, respectively.

The latest update on the No Confidence Movement is that the Arcata, CA City Council has taken the resolution on in subcommittee and will likely hear it publicly in April when I expect it will pass in some revised form. Pressing the resolution at the Eureka, CA City Council has also gotten traction, though in a different way. I am now working with two of the Councilmembers who have agreed to co-sponsor a town hall forum on Instant Runoff Voting.

So please, don't defend Will before he's even had a chance to respond to my respectful (if challenging) note. I didn't intend for it to put him on the defensive so I don't know why anyone else would be so inclined on his behalf. And aside from Will, the message of ruthless honesty is for all of us.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
22. Your idea of a No Confidence Movement
may be a good one, but people aren't going to do anything until they know something is wrong. I think we have a long way to go in this education of the masses.
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. That is a given
Check out the No Confidence Resolution at the GuvWurld blog, it is filled with links documenting what it says. That is a part of the education you are talking about. So are all the presentations I've done for community groups. The Green Party of Humboldt County, CA recently endorsed the resolution. Now there are more people out there (here) talking about it. This is how it will start elsewhere.

What I'm trying to emphasize in this thread is this: whether it is the No Confidence Movement or any other resistance exercise one engages in, it is equally essential that myths not be reinforced, that we don't perpetuate the very same fraud being perpetrated against us and which we wish to stop. It is not always easy to see where we are doing this. Recognizing it, naming it, debunking it, this is also part of the education. Is this message not part of it too?
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eaglenetsupport Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #15
29. Well I'd hafta say at least we get to hear
Some good alternative ideas around here. I mean it's an interesting approach to go out and push city councils to pass no confidence motions. Make a nice press piece here and there. It's going to take all of us working together in multiple avenues to crack this safe. It's that 'working together' part in this instance that nics me a bit.

It would seem to me the thrust here is edging toward, stop doing what your doing and do what I'm doing or your all nuts. I wouldn't be opposed to such an approach if it was obvious that such and such approach is the key to the city. Here the "plan" seems to be drop legal, weight of law, positions and approach the problem with non-binding resolutions in numerous city council jurisdictions.

I lean toward real binding options like legal proof in front the correct court in a properly framed legal case that will produce and thus expose the perps in a venue the majority of the public trusts. Or initiatives that force a vote on an issue were the results MAKE change a reality with new law. But city council resolutions with no weight of law and stop the law suits. Am I missing this or whats up here?
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 03:23 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. There can be more than one front
First, I'm not calling anybody "nuts" or any other name. It is beneath us all and not my style.

There are many different endeavors that are worthwhile and not mutually exclusive from No Confidence. Some people may evaluate what they're doing and decide No Confidence is a more productive and effective use of their time and energy, but I don't contend that everyone must. My only universal suggestion is to take the Orwellian examples occurring and be sure that the paradoxes are not causing you to inadvertently reinforce the myths. This is sound advice no matter what front you are working on.

As for initiatives, they could be better than council resolutions. You have a point there, eaglenetsupport. Of all the anti-Patriot act resolutions, I'm not sure they were all actually resolutions. I think some were ordinances or other more binding declarations. This is going to be a city by city thing, as will the language used to express No Confidence. What I have put forward is a template that any group or any town can modify however they want. It is the framing of it that I think holds the real power and which I hope will be kept.

The more forcefully (binding) we can make these statements, the more the voices of We The People are brought into harmony with a powerful message. Again, there can be other messages, they just have to avoid reinforcing and perpetuating myths. And we should be ruthlessly honest in helping well intentioned people see how their hard work can be even more valuable by rooting out the lies we tell ourselves.

Finally, if any of this is going to be worth anything, the result we're after has to include seeing a day where partisanship is akin to treason. We The People are the entity that matters most. The ideal of democracy lives through competition in the free marketplace of ideas. The best ideas, most likely to serve the greater good, should be the ones chosen in fair elections. This dream is based entirely on the premise of working together. I hope this does not still feel like a nic to you.
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
13. if Kerry had squeaked by in spite of the weird goings on would there
have been such a push for election reform? Would people be as angry? I was SO angry at the machine disparity in my Ohio County -vs-others -- if Kerry had won I still would have written the letters I wrote -- but would the momentum from all of the states and people involved continue?

Yes -- being in Ohio, I wanted a recount even before the final votes were counted but Blackwell was NOT playing fair, and he continued to NOT play fair. Even if Kerry immediately knew about all of these problems (many of which didn't come out for over 2 weeks after the election) -- I don't believe he could have done anything to change the process. Nothing. Granted, he didn't know that Blackwell was going to take everything to the last possible second, but he also didn't know about the wide spread irregularities right away, either. Even with all of the poll people checking in, it would have still been whisperings of something fraudulent -- not out-and-out proof of such.

Fallujah was already on the books to be an issue -- and I believe that was a strategy the * administration planned.... look at Kerry counting votes when our troops are doing the Hard work at keeping us free.... This article says it better than I, though http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i21election.htm

Am I happy with what happened? No, but I'm not particularly upset at Kerry -- more at the Catch-22 that happens to be our election system. How can we change this for next time if people don't even know there is a problem? By Not letting them forget it's a problem. (If you are so inclined, go here http://www.wmub.org/feedback/feedbackblog.html and leave a comment to an information letter I wrote to a local public radio station (WMUB 88.5 Oxford, Ohio) -- it wasn't meant to be published (I wrote it more as an information piece to push them to investigate things that were still happening) -- but since it's there, they need to know these issues are Important to people!)

We have to keep up the fight whenever possible -- Write in -- Call in -- let your views be known. People may tell you to "get over it" --but tell them it's about TOMORROW, not yesterday, and not even today. It's about preserving (or taking back) our Democracy.


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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. You said it well
I think Kerry was right to concede. I think some younger folks aren't familiar with a normal election, since we haven't had one since 1996. Waiting as long as Kerry did was unusual in itself. Not conceding would have done nothing except have these election issues dumped in the sour grapes pile. Since he did concede and has never personally contested the election, he and the Democratic Party can continue with the investigations and calls for voting reform based on concern, not partisanship. It's better and more effective in the long run. It's been 4 months and we've still got no evidence of a coordinated conspiracy. We would have been worse off with an election fight with the Bushies. He's still fighting and that ought to be enough for people to know he's serious. It's what he's done his entire life.
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Alizaryn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
18. How hopeful! Kerry/Edwards remaining involved speaks
to how far we have come as a whole in deciding that the time to fight and repair a very broken system is now. Thanks Will.
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 01:21 AM
Response to Reply #18
66. Agree. I, for one, am extremely grateful to all who continue the fight.
These lawsuits are the ray of hope.
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stillcool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
19. The up-side about the election results.....
for me, that is, is that I am far more informed, and far less trusting
of any part of American government. I can not stop reading. There is so much denial and rationalization about things that have been going on for way too long. My eyes (I hope) are wide open and the predictions of Ralph Nader's corporate government have become my reality. The tentacles that result from the marriage of the Christian Right Fundraising capabilities, and Global Corporations is staggering. To be able to put the brakes on through the process of the courts is a noble idea, but I fear we have gone way too far, and way too fast on this little trip we're on to thwart the consequences awaiting us. That being said, any good news is good news. To do nothing is to do nothing, and how can I rationalize that?
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rigel99 Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
24. in the end, the CITIZENS STILL RULE America
period..

you want good news? 20 activists got GA's Sec. of State Cathy Cox staffers to say, 'that is the end of her campaign' after we asked enough pointed questions, she left the room abruptly

6 cobb county citizens got stupid little 'evolution is only a theory' stickers off science books in GA

more good news, let's see.... air america was on live from atlanta and we aired things about our fraudulent diebold machiens on the air...

lots of very good news... you just have to look for it, and celebrate it, and focus on the good and keep plodding along doing whatever you can.......

i'll never stop believing in an America where citizens are the power and citizens run the government... never... ask Dean about weeding out corporate interests, he's got a plan! and he's got the power of the DNC to do something... that's very good news!
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Feb-25-05 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. That sounds like a GREAT new thread to me....
Let's call it "Tell me something good." I don't have enough posts yet to start it, so can someone here oblige? It's so critically important that we stay informed and "be the media," but, frankly, it's all been pretty depressing here lately. I really need to hear the good stuff, too.

Can anyone second that?
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rigel99 Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 01:53 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. YOUR WISH... New Thread Starting Called GOOD NEWS THREAD..
I'll take your new thread and raise you one!
here goes... look for it in AM.....
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eaglenetsupport Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 02:27 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Aaaahhhh, you got me right where it counts
the heart.

I understand the frustrations out there. But really I have nothing but hope. I know it may seem hard to believe but I've waited for this opportunity for more that thirty years for real progressive change. I have a vision that the bush machine has pushed it over the top. I not just envision but SEE a ground swell of Americans from our side of the isle that I've only dreamed of.

VISION VINDICATION.
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MelissaB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. AmBlue,
welcome to DU. :hi:

Check to see if you can start a thread. You might be surprised. :)
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Ellipsis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 12:55 AM
Response to Original message
26. ...the methodical snowball. n/t
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 06:28 AM
Response to Original message
34. Election reform is necessary and important.
Edited on Sat Feb-26-05 06:29 AM by cornermouse
But on a daily level (where the rubber meets the road) the pain and sometimes, despair caused by the direct impact of another 4 years of Republican activities and rule on the federal and state level on our daily lives makes election reform pale in comparison.

Add to that democrats saying things like "He was involved in the torture rules, but I'm going to vote for him anyway", the possibility of Lieberman joining the republicans in the attack on social security.

We're in trouble, Will. I honestly don't know if or how we're going to survive another 4 years.
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PitBoss Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
37. .
.
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PitBoss Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. .
.
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PitBoss Donating Member (14 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. .
.
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. Welcome to DU... are you trying to say something?
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. ..
Just seeing if that will raise my post count. Or maybe it's Morse code or something...
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. On edit... you fooled me...
Edited on Sat Feb-26-05 10:16 AM by Misunderestimator
I thought you were the one I posted to... or on second edit... since you said "Just seeing if that will raise my post count" perhaps you are and that was a sockpuppet? Color me confused...
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #43
52. No, no
I was guessing to see if maybe that was what they were trying to do. Didn't mean to confuse you. I was actually wondering what they were trying to do, myself - wondering aloud, kind of!
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Sorry, I saw your post below... should have responded sooner...
Edited on Sat Feb-26-05 04:47 PM by Misunderestimator
I understand what you meant. :)

(Oh, and on edit... seems I was right about the one I was posting to originally... ding dong)
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Misunderestimator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
38. Here's how I look at it... It was good to wait this long...
We already know from the debacle of 2000 the lengths to which the other side would go to secure the presidency. Laying low and collecting evidence and keeping it out of the media and out of the focus of the RW sights may have been the smartest move.

Now that it is about setting precedents and not winning the election, it has more of a chance of not being beaten down by, say, the Supreme Court of the United States... talk about a precedent!

Maybe I'm just too optimistic about this, but I think this is a huge and important step that couldn't have happened had it been pursued vigorously directly after the election.
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Laurab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #38
44. Being too optimistic beats the alternative
I agree with you. I think if it had been pursued after the election it would have been a mess. Just knowing who owns the media and the Supreme Court, and the extent to which the RW will go, makes me cringe at the thought of what would have happened. Think Al Gore 1000 times worse. Gore had the votes and they still made a mockery out of him.

It's still a RW media, and a RW court, but hopefully whatever evidence they have, or are in the process of getting, will speak loud enough to overcome that. I'm very hopeful.
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dandrhesse Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 10:30 AM
Response to Original message
45. Ever since Kerry gave his concession speech I have thought it wasn't
about him. I felt when he said "you don't know how much I wish it had turned out differently" that he was speaking to the issue at hand, the rigging of the electoral process in our country. I think he had to make the agonizing choice of deciding between fighting the outcome in a court battle that was sure to be stacked against him or take it to the people, knowing that we would be crushed and trusting us to rise up in indignation and collectively "do something".

If Kerry had fought, many of us who are now fighting may have watched, instead of jumping in. It would have delayed our reaction, the court battle would have taken time and then after losing we would be deflated and worse, we would have scattered to the four winds. By forcing us right away to do something, he motivated us to stay organized.

It takes a lot of guts to do what he did, knowing he was going to be criticized on every front. But I believe he is and will continue to do all he can to see that voting integrity gets recticfied and also to build a case to collapse the house of cards we now have for a government.

It's hard to keep in perspective that knowing something is illegal and even witnessing it is one thing, proving it in a court of law is something else alltogether, beyond a shadow of a doubt they have to be guilty.

We ordinary citizens needed to rise up and claim our country back, Michael Moore has been telling us this, Jim Hightower, and lots of others, and generally speaking, en masse we hadn't done it.

I believe we will prevail but I wasn't prepared for the long, fight ahead. I think Kerry knew, on the day he conceded and that is why looked so sad and pained. With the knowledge gained by 20 years of political experience as a prosecutor that was ahead of us was to be a long, tough road to travel before it would be over.

I believe he decided on that day that his country was more important than himself and that is a choice we should all respect. Only time will tell if I am right, I hope I am for our country, for all of us and for John Kerry.
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A Brand New World Donating Member (803 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. I agree 100% with what you've said. I trust Kerry implicitly to do what
it best for our country. I have never been so emotionally involved with an election as I was with Kerry's. He is continuing his fight, sometimes in public but mostly behind the scenes. He has not dropped from the fight like Gore did. As much as we were all devastated by the 2004 result, Kerry's devastation, of course, was thousand-fold. But I think he did what he thought was best for the future of our democracy. Hopefully there will be something left to salvage when ** is done with it.
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New Earth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. i completely agree.
that is what i have always thought. it's hard for some people to understand though, but i've gotten used to that.
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TomClash Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 12:13 PM
Response to Original message
48. This is really about 06 and 08 not 04
If there is a Temporary Restraining Order the evidence can't be wiped without violating that order, which is not a good idea, no matter who you are.

Kerry may have been tough in the delta but I think time and money have mellowed him. I think he was sick of the campaign when he conceded.

One of the most important things to do is to keep tabs on the voting machine companies and their bosses and this is one of the ways to do it.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 03:10 PM
Response to Original message
49. Will, first of all, thanks for the information--and the thread to...
discuss it. I've been working on the Kevin Shelley situation in Calif., and on the Oakland and Santa Monica Election Rigging Teach-In's this weekend--and I'm sure many DUers are in the same spot, actively working on various things, so that it's hard to keep up with all developments. (I live far away from the Teach-In's, and have to work today--so could not go--the Oakland one is in progress right now.)

This is a vital discussion. Some of the comments have really ignited my brain cells this morning. I want to come down on the side of the REALISTS, like GuvWorld, but with one caveat: GuvWorld and those who see back into history--the erosion of our democracy over many decades, and the myths that get perpetrated that we even HAVE a democracy any longer (what I've taken to calling the Delusion of Democracy, as seen on TV)--ALSO need to give some REALISTIC thought to what is possible NOW.

For instance, I think our country is resting on paper thin ice. The main issue is stability. And I suspect that GuvWorld's Resolution of No Confidence may fail at the local level precisely on this issue: stability. To maintain stability, people think they need to maintain the illusion--or delusion--that everything is basically okay. And I think they WILL do that--opt for stability--when it comes to challenging the legitimacy of the Bush Cartel, partly because many are greatly misinformed and uninformed; partly because, although some are now aware of the election fraud, there is NO mechanism for reversing the outcome (to what entity can we appeal? there is none), and partly out of fear of instability (no matter what the person may know or believe).

This is not to say: Don't push the Resolution. Not at all. It could well be a great educational tool (and certainly local jurisdictions are hurting badly--and in for much more harm in the future--and so may be inclined to listen), but, unless the Resolution is combined with effective and pointed action, at the local level, on Election Reform, then it's just an opinion--as with Patriot Act resolutions--and the Bush Cartel DOESN'T CARE A WHIT ABOUT ANYBODY'S OPINION.

Back to GuvWorld's realism, for a moment. We have suffered a fascist coup, enabled by some amount of collusion by the Democratic party leadership. It didn't happen overnight, for sure. But the 2004 election was the coup de grace--and we now have a situation that is much like Germany 1934, Hitler's consolidation of all state power. The Bush Cartel now controls the presidency, the Congress, the military, the intelligence apparatus, the courts, the news media AND the election system.

The parallel is not exact (and therein lay our hope--for instance, the US is a much bigger and more diverse country than Germany 1934--much harder to control), but it is close enough to be chilling and very scary.

And it is very, very, very, VERY important that we understand the Democratic Party leadership's position in all this--because it was precisely the collapse and disarray of the Left that permitted Hitler to gain power and assisted him in consolidating his power.

One conumdrum that keeps nagging at me is HOW COULD THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY LEADERS HAVE LET WALLY O'DELL AND H.F. AHMANSON GAIN CONTROL OF OUR ELECTION SYSTEM without screaming bloody murder about it--making it a campaign issue, warning voters, etc.???

I have some compassion for Kerry on election night. I think AT THAT POINT his choices were bad and terrible, and he chose bad (silence). But how did it get to that point?

I just don't think it's credible that the Dem leaders DIDN'T KNOW who was counting our votes in secret (or not counting them), and that Kerry had actually won. The information that is now public--for instance, the blowout success that we gave the Democrats in new voter registration (Dems 57% vs. Repubs 41%!), and that nearly all Nader voters voted for Kerry (Dr. Steven Freeman analysis--4 to 8 million vote margin for Kerry that just somehow disappeared on election night)--and Bush's continued dismal approval ratings...all of this (and more) is information that the Dem leaders had and have.

So what accounts for their silence on the OBVIOUSLY, blatantly fraudulent election SYSTEM, and the obvious and blatant theft of this election?

We need to know the answer to this, in order to evaluate individual leaders and their ability to help us now, and to decide how to proceed vis a vis the Dem Party.

I think the answer is complicated, and I think it doesn't help to just say, "They're all corporate/military-industrial shills," or we have only one political party, the War Party.

My guestimate: We've got virtually 100% of Republican leaders in the War Party, and at least 50% of Democrats in the War Party, which leaves the other 50% of Dem leaders representing the majority of Americans (nearly 60% of whom STILL oppose the Iraq war now, today). In short, the majority of Americans have little representation in Congress, and certainly not FAIR represenation (and no representation in the White House--and very little in the courts and the media).

Also, the Dems are looking at a bad combination of people just not ever voting again (why should they? --especially all those new voters?), and serious rebellion on the Left (due to Dem inaction on election fraud and reform, as well as Dem support of the war).

IN THIS CONTEXT, it may be that the K/E new legal motions in Ohio are partly a move to keep the Left on board in the Dem Party. And the new legal motions may ALSO partly be based on a desire to delegitimize the Bush Cartel, and get the goods on them (for the political purpose of ousting them in '08, or changing Congress in '06).

Are these purposes that we want to support? Maybe. Do we want to stay on board the Dem party? Maybe. (Howard Dean as DNC chair is certainly an incentive to do so.) Will our staying on board the Dem Party lead to more of the same--Dems supporting unjust war, Dems supporting global "free" trade (it was Clinton who signed NAFTA, not Bush!), Dems maintaining and extending US military protection surrounding Israel, with the bonus of controlling the last remaining oil supplies on earth for wastrel use by the US, and other such policies? Maybe (more of the same).

CAN the Dem Party be a vehicle for change? Maybe.

The Bush Cartel has a lock on power in the US. And the two parties have a lock on any potential change. That is REALISTIC. And how do we--Leftists, progressives and others whose eyes are opening--react to that, and what do we do about it? And what CAN we do about it?

Clearly, one thing we can do is to work relentlessly for ELECTION REFORM at the local level. We (the people) have more power at the local level. Most people would agree that honest, transparent elections are a must. It's a sprawling, messy, grass roots struggle, but it's DOABLE. (And we should be very wary of Congressional solutions--especially any that reduce state/local power over elections--or bribe states to go more electronic with big fed money--or do both of these things WITHOUT stringent provisions for verification of electronic results.)

In Calif., we have run into CA DEMOCRATIC LEADERS supporting paperless voting (!), and acting to DESTROY one of the few honest Sec of States in the country! (--Kevin Shelley, who decertified and sued Diebold, and provided Calif's with a paper ballot option for 2004).

So it's not easy locally, either. Big money at stake. Big corruption WITHIN the Dem Party.

Still, I think it's more doable than Congressional election reform (never happen! or will be worse than nothing--is my opinion).

And this is good. If we wait for Big Daddy to help us, we're just going to see more war and devastation. The grass roots has to re-awaken and arise from the horrible blow it suffered on Nov. 2. I have never seen anything like that grass roots democracy movement in this country, ever. It was wonderful! But it was a young movement, easily derailed. And that's what happened--and it was very deliberate on the BushCons' part, and I think included some Dem collusion (some entrenched Dems don't like the grass roots any more than the BushCons do).

And we have to take back our country--in real specific ways, such as Election Reform. And never go to sleep again!

What we need to be realistic about is how far we have to go, to achieve real democracy. Before Nov. 2, I had committed myself to cleaning up our filthy campaign funding system. I saw that as the main problem. And I was pushing a Consitutional Amendment about it (no more private money in political campaigns--period, fini, enough is enough!).

HA! Little did I know how far things had gone. So, now we have to step backwards to something even more fundamental: our very right to vote.

But one thing we should know: There is a REASON that all this is being done to us. Americans hold potentially very great power to assist worldwide movements toward peace and justice. We CHARTER the global corporations that are doing most of the damage to people and planet. We have TRIED to regulate them, by voting! They attacked us back by corrupting many of the Democrats (with campaign contributions and other forms of collusion). We tried to stop that, again by voting (--campaign contribution limits, etc., but the court system itself has become corrupted, and almost no one in power wants to clean this mess up anyway ). Then we tried to stop their coup de grace in 2004, also by voting (at least to oust the Bush Cartel, all other issues put on hold, to accomplish that). So they've taken our vote away. Simple as that. And we have to get it back.

There are many OTHER ways they have disempowered the majority of Americans over the last decades (including sucking Dems into the campaign contribution system--so that the poor have almost no advocates). But we cannot change those things until we have restored our right to vote.

Voting alone is not enough, of course--but it is the basic power on which all our other rights rest. With the majority disenfranchised, the Bush Cartel can go its own way and invade Iran, and destroy Social Security, and do whatever it wants to. They don't NEED to care. They may let a Dem be elected in '08--to take all the blame, and run the bread lines--but NOTHING fundamental can be changed until we restore public control of the election system.

And after we do that, then we need to get a BIG BROOM and start cleaning house.

It's not enough to "elect Democrats" in '06 or '08. There is something very wrong with the Dem Party--its malfeasance on the election system, the commitment of many elected Dems to unjust war. But the solution may NOT be to abandon it--if it will help us NOW. (I do fear a fracturing of the Left such as occurred in Germany in the 1930s.)

We must NOT have illusions about it, though--that somebody (Kerry, for instance--and his legal motions) is going to save this country FOR us. It's fine that he's doing that. I'm glad he cares--truly I am--whether it's primarily politically motivated (to keep the Left on board) or not.

What we have to realize is that it's up to US, collectively, as a people, to save this country--whether it's GuvWorld yakking up the city councils, or the Green Party trying to get the goddamned votes counted (for chrissake!), or county by county organizing for election reform, or these current Teach-In's, or the big election reform summit in Tennessee this April...

...something is astir, most certainly. And that is what HAS TO HAPPEN to restore democracy in the U.S. of A. It has to be "We the People' or it is not democracy. It is my hope that the great grass roots coalition that elected Kerry will get back on its feet, and demand election reform, and, in the course of that effort, will demand from the Democratic Party the REASONS that election reform is necessary (accountability for their malfeasance and corruption on this matter), and will start electing politicians who ARE accountable, and who represent majority opinion, which opposes unjust war and other forms of injustice and illegality.

It's got to be a groundswell, from the bottom up--which may not happen overnight, but definitely CAN happen and I believe IS happening (Americans are very unhappy with how things are). And that groundswell needs to be aimed at something. Americans are a practical people--given them a task for the common good, and they get it done; complain in general, say, about the war, and they just shrug it off--what can they DO?

And I think the aim needs to be election reform--REAL election reform (not half-assed or harmful Congressional mandates that pour more money into Wally O'Dell's pockets, thus to the Bush Cartel political machine). Grass roots, state by state, county by county.

And with the right to vote, and with the power of a REAL vote, and with an energized and awakened and EMPOWERED population, many things will be possible that may seem inconceivably unrealistic at the moment.

That's WHY they took away our right to vote. That's WHY we must get it back. Our vote = our sovereignty.

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dandrhesse Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 04:19 PM
Response to Reply #49
73. thanks for a really good post. I agree with so much of what you wrote
It would be a good idea to try to achieve our goals within the framework of the Dem party. The issue of stability is very important. We are on thin ice, teetering on the brink of self-destruction. But if people still voted for bush because they couldn't face reality we sure as heck aren't going to convince them of radical change.

Adopting the resolution mentioned could potentially be worse in the long run. It would require reordering of our political system. Which would essentially be a revolution. The segment of our population who are armed and dangerous generally speaking are not the liberals. We could risk not only idealogical takeover, but physical take over.

The reaction of the Democratic Party has puzzled me also. The only common thread is that no one reacted as expected. Not just a few, but literally no one. Which leads me to believe that either they knew this was coming and planned ahead or they are all in collusion. I opt for the first. I think there are a group of Senators and Reps that are fighting for us and our country.

Oddly, I didn't think that before all of this, but circumstances have made push come to shove very quickly and we have found out who has the guts to stand up and just say no.

I also agree that everything hinges on the vote. There is no other issue, everything else becomes a moot.

I also agree that it is doable. We need to mobilize. It is also doable to impeach bush and his whole cartel but it would take a movement on a grand scale. I believe that we can do it, and I wish the DNC would start giving some real direction on how to accomplish this instead of just asking for more money.

Commericials and rallies are not gonna do it.

I think there is hope, we just can't give up. I think all of the people that I spoke to during the campaign would be willing to write letters or emails if they knew who to bug! It doesn't do any good to spend energy on the wrong people.

During his campaign Kerry kept saying people are going to catch on to what bush is doing, the american people are not dumb, I have confidence they will figure it out.

They did, just like you said. They came out in record numbers and it was a landslide for Kerry. That is why I think he looked so depressed. He accomplished his goals, we accomplished our and still it did not go our way according to the vote count and he knew the long, hard road that we had ahead.

We can do it, one person at a time. Right the world leaders in other countries are doing more to help us than anything else. When Fidel Castro called bush deranged, that was saying something!

thanks for standing up
thanks for answering the call.
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
55. Thanks, Will. These are the questions I've been asking
and it's good to get some better understanding of this process. Part of the confusion arose becaue of the big time scale shift after Jan 6, when instead of events evolving on the scale of days or even less, they suddenly became long-term processes to be measured in weeks, months and years.

It's good to know the fight is going on and the fighters have not been worn down by the delaying tactics of the opposition. Here the experience of the Dem candidates in grinding away during litigation battles will be an aid.

Like so many, I have been wondering why Kerry conceded so very quickly, especially so soon after the promises to fight for counting every vote. I had decided to just accept it as incomprehensible. irreversible, and ultimately just OLD NEWS. In some ways I regard Kerry himself as old news (though he remains my senator), but I am heartened to hear that he is still involved in the fight. I hope the Rethugs come to feel that they picked the wrong people to steal an election from.

It's reassuring to know that when significant developments in this long and vital fight occur, you will let us know. Thank you for standing watch for us.
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jus_the_facts Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #55
68. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHA......
Edited on Sun Feb-27-05 01:56 AM by jus_the_facts
Part of the confulsion arose becaue of the big time scale shift after Jan 6, when instead of events evolving on the scale of days or even less, they suddenly became long-term processes to be measured in weeks, months and years.

It's good to know the fight is going on and the fighters have not been worn down by the delaying tactics of the opposition. Here the experience of the Dem candidates in grinding away during litigation battles will be an aid.




LITIGATION BATTLES WILL BE AN AID..... HIDE AND WATCH GRASSHOPPER!
AND *i* expect a PM to the contrary when you LEARN different!!!!! :eyes:
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dandrhesse Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 04:22 PM
Response to Reply #55
74. Don't forget that Kerry has been down this road many times.
He has spent most of his senate career gathering evidence to make a case against something that was going on in the Republican camp.

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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. We can all join in wishing Kerry huge success in this greatest case
Edited on Sun Feb-27-05 04:35 PM by Nothing Without Hope
of his career. Whatever individuals think of Kerry's actions in the campaign and immediately after the election -- and there is a sharp divide on this -- surely they can all join in wishing him success in proving election fraud and working for reform with voter-verifiable ballots.
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dandrhesse Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. good job in looking for common ground, you should be an arbitraitor
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #77
83. An "ARBITRAITOR"? Is that spelling is deliberate?
Edited on Mon Feb-28-05 03:21 AM by Nothing Without Hope
"Traitor" is a very strongly inflammatory word. Most of the time misspellings in these posts don't matter, but that one -- if it is a misspelling -- is troubling.
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dandrhesse Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #83
87. no, I'm just a really poor speller and I didn't use spell check, sorry
if you thought I was insulting you, definitely not, I was honestly complimenting you on your positive attitude.

I just ran the spell check and I misspelled spell check!!yikes!!!!!

:hug:
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 07:43 PM
Response to Reply #87
90. Whew! Thank goodness! And we do need to find common ground on Kerry
From your earlier post you looked to be a thoughtful, reasonable person, and normally spelling mistakes don't matter to me, but that one bothered me for obvious reasons. Instead of leaving that hurtful uncertainty, I decided to try to get clarification. Thanks for responding!
:pals:

I do think progressive Dems need to find common ground on Kerry, because he isn't disappearing from the scene and the battle between his supporters and his opposition has remained hotly contested. I view it as an energy and goodwill drain that we cannot afford and that serves no useful purpose at this time. What I would like to see is

1. A suspension of the endlessly repeated Kerry bashing -- we all know where we stand on that by now and further repetitions just cause more anger and deepen division. I don't think anyone is going to change anyone else's mind right now, so let's set aside those arguments until they become more relevant -- let's say, around primary season for the next presidential election. Then let 'er rip -- with my blessing and participation.

2. A moratorium on discussions of how we either would hate or love for Kerry to be the presidential candidate in 2008. We all have strong opinions on both sides of that too, and it really isn't necessary to thrash it out this early anyway. So let's just agree to set it aside for a while with the understanding that there is strong disagreement that will have to be dealt with later on.

3. A willingness to accept whatever good that Kerry is able and willing to do for the cause of election reform and for helping to continue the fight to expose what happened in November. He is a US Senator; he has resources that are helpful to this cause. While not expecting him to be the prime mover in these efforts, we don't have to ignore or even demonize him either. We can watch carefully, keep the whole picture in mind, and make decisions on how to respond to developments accordingly, calmly.


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dandrhesse Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-01-05 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #90
94. I agree! We need all of our energy to focus on what is happening now
in the present. I have been spending a lot of time trying to figure out what is the next best move tactically and I would love some direction from somewhere!

I have at least figured some things out. The GAO while helpful for information has no power to prosecute so their findings on the PR for example can be very damning but are only informative.

There is the whole department of Government Ethics which basically has the same powers, none.

The Department of Justice has some real power but I'm not sure who to contact there or lean on with major letter writing/phone calling etc. a

And then there is the Senate Rules committee and the Senate Judiciary Committee as well as the House Judiciary.

For election reform I think the Senate Rules committee is the best bet.

got to go for now more later.

ps didnt have time to spell check :)
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
56. Is it too LATE in the TERM for a Bush ABORTION?
Having waited for 25 years since the Reagan phony "landslide" and nightmarish "Morning In America" for the American public to wake up and say "We're not stupid, we're mad as hell and we're not gonna be lied to anymore"-- it is difficult to relate to well-meaning efforts to look for "next time." 2004 WAS next time. After 2000, why weren't there mechanisms in place to GUARANTEE that we could have confidence in the outcome of this election? Whatever WAS done, why wasn't it effective?

Mr. Pitt, you write, "A thing election reformers need to accept and understand is that lawsuits, like legislation, take time." This may be true and election reform is a good thing; but "need to accept"? Your statement reminds me of a local MoveOn.org meeting I attended on "Framing" to watch the Lakoff DVD. The discussion leader began by advising 40-50 people that the Republicans had been working on framing and thinktanks for decades and that any similar efforts on our part would take time........... This was in January, after Boxer's Rebellion on Jan. 6th and prior to the reinstallation of Bush in the WH on Jan. 20th. When, IF EVER, would a roomful of grassroots activists get vocal about the hijacked election? Is it more comforting to act as if there is no URGENCY?

When I asked if we had the luxury of time and brought up the fraudulent election, I was told "The election meeting is on the 27th." Great.

All of us need to do what we can and what works for us. I won't criticize anyone's choices about which aspect to work on or how.

However, the responses to your post express (Thank god!) the anguish, frustration and immediacy that folks feel about the reality we are living through right now and the implications of all the damage that Bush&Co. have done and will do.

Most damaging of all is the fact that the American people are sleepwalking through the second stolen election. If our precious American system of government depends on us standing up for ourselves to dump this evil charade, then we damn well better do it. NOW. Clearly, this can be done through information, not violence. But impatience, in this case. may be a VIRTUE.

If citizens won't respond to election fraud, they won't respond to Gulf War ll, saber-rattling at Iran, Gannongate, Iran/Contra criminals and torturers appointed to high office, etc., etc...... They think they've seen it all. And they HAVE.

People are sleepwalking EVEN THOUGH MANY OF THEM KNOW how absolutely precarious their own lives are under Bush. The worse it gets, the less they want to look. It's like the monster in the closet. Everybody's hiding under the covers and hoping it's a really BAD DREAM.

The plan for getting the Monsters out of the closet is:

1. Wake up
2. Wake up the people you know
3. Wake up the people you don't know
4. Face your fears, tell the Bogeyman :evilfrown: to get the hell out of your house
5. Remember you can fly O8)
6. Share your dreams with those in your community

PEOPLE GOT THE POWER
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Angry Girl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
57. Thanks for your tireless work
It's so much harder to stay in there for the long haul than in brief bursts. And thanks for the constant updates and unpretentious explanations of wtf is going on!
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count_alucard Donating Member (105 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 07:07 PM
Response to Original message
58. sorry, waste of time
"That, and that alone, represents an incomprehensible and ultimately terminal blunder."

Everything else Kerry does or doesn't do is absolutely irrelevant.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #58
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #59
65. Deleted message
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #65
76. Ya and while Dean
was running back and forth between supreme courts,it would have made the ultimate cover for bushco to cover up all the fraud that was done during the election.In this country the crime has to be committed first, then you go after them. Kerry got out of the way,now he has the crime,and the cover up.

bushco would have wanted us,four months later to be talking about how good of a fighter Kerry was.Instead of pursuing the crime that was committed. NGU
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Al-CIAda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 07:34 PM
Response to Original message
60. Did Kerry blow it by conceding too early? Obviously.
'Did Kerry blow it by conceding too early? Obviously. I've spoken with several of the people who served as poll-watchers on behalf of Kerry in Ohio. The decision to concede was made before these people were debriefed. They were on buses, planes and trains hauling ass home so they could describe what they'd seen to their campaign representatives. That, and that alone, represents an incomprehensible and ultimately terminal blunder.'


And he ignored all the pleas for help. I find it unbelievable that after 2000 they were caught so flat-footed. Bullshit...and boy are we FUCKED now. I don't suppose Kerry mentioned why he didn't bring up the PNAC ever in the campaign? Nah, too much truth in that.


Thanks for the post though...the fight goes on because it must.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. Yes, Kerry is the bad guy in all of this.
He blew it period. Thanks to him we have four more years of hell. Only if he had trusted his own instincts. :cry: :cry: :cry:
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KaliTracy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 02:50 AM
Response to Reply #60
70. With such a "gap" in votes (not under a thousand as in Florida, but over
100,000 in Ohio) was he just supposed to throw his hand up in a press conference the November 3rd and say This is not over yet, I believe that there were things wrong with this election and I want an investigation, now. While suppression was known in Ohio -- when the Secretary of State denies that there was a problem in Ohio the day after the Election, and says "We had a very good election" and implores everyone to just "breathe deep" how would Kerry calling for an investigation change things?

There is still no real "smoking gun" -- though people are working on this tirelessly -- people who believe that something happened, but cannot, even now, with all of the documentation in the US get a rise out of the general public, or definitively say This is what happened folks, This is who did it, This is How, and This is why.

Perhaps I am too naive about political processes, though. I mean, when I write to 5-6 people who are supposedly the Democratic BOE directors in a 90 mile radius to where I live to mainly complain about the huge disparity of machine accessibility in Ohio (My district (now, I've found out -- my Neighborhood in My District -- not the entire district) had an incredible amount of machines per-precinct as compared to other precincts in Ohio -- and to ask what can be done in the future to prevent such an undemocratic election and the Democratic BOE from Hamilton County says to me in a second correspondence on the 6th of November:

<snip>
"I don't think lines only existed in democratic areas. I heard a report of lines in Mason, a heavy republican area that didn't get the last voter in until sometime near 10:00. I don't have personal experience of that but it was the report I heard.

"No doubt there were lines in many places and we have to look at that
carefully for the future. But there were also lots of inaccurate rumors out there too. For example one Cincinnati radio station reported that one of our polling places in heavily democratic 7th ward ran out of ballots. That simply wasn't true. No poll ran out of ballots."


{FYI -- Mason is in Warren County, home of the Orange Terror Alert "lockdown"}

I think that there is just a bit of disconnect there -- ya know? By the way -- this was my final paragraph of my first correspondence (after telling him approximately how many machines in a 2 mile strip we had in our neighborhood (over 20))

"Seems to me, in this day and age, that an equal amount of voting
machines could be dispersed to all voting locations -- or am I missing something? I've looked on the Internet for an Ohio Voting Location Map of some sort, to see precinct voting place lay-out, etc. but have yet to find anything. I'm trying to "breathe deep" and just carry on, but I also feel that in order to STOP any problems from occurring again next time, that everyone, republicans and democrats alike, need to look at how voting places are determined, and arrange for equality in dispersing the machines. I could have waited an hour or more (my boss wouldn't have liked it, but I would have done it and
just worked later that night) -- others, needing to pick up children from school, or go to jobs that aren't so forgiving, didn't have this luxury. And, to me, this is completely UNdemocratic."

His First response was that there wasn't any waiting that he knew of in Hamilton county, and that punch card machines are less expensive than other voting machines, which is why some precincts can have more....(I wrote him back to say I was speaking about all of Ohio which prompted the response above)

Hello? I'm writing to 5 Democratic Party BOE directors about the problems that occurred in Ohio that shouldn't have occurred, and 1. only one writes me back, and 2. this issue isn't really addressed. No discussion of what lessons were learned, or even an invitation for me to get involved with Elections if I had issues -- just that there wasn't a problem in his area. :shrug:

But, some say, if Kerry went out there on November 3rd and demanded more investigation into the disenfranchisement in Ohio (that's all we had at the time to go on), it would have made a difference. I wish with all my heart I could say they are right, but after what they did to Gore and his recount efforts, I just don't see it. Actually, if this had happened I do not think we'd be in the same place we are right now. I actually believe we've moved this issue up a few notches, because we've made it NOT about Kerry -- but about the democratic process and free, open and transparent elections. I don't believe the press would have been kind to Kerry halting things for an investigation -- hell, they could care less that our White House is a propaganda machine, even with real information regarding this at their fingertips and for something as amorphous as Election Fraud to them (and ultimately the general public) they would simply have let the Republicans spin, spin spin spin.

People would have been even more divided than they are now about Kerry's action or inaction because it wouldn't have changed anything (Blackwell would have STILL done all he could do to delay the certification (although granted, we only know that because we've just lived through it) -- and Kerry would have been seen as a sore loser, much like Gore (maybe worse than Gore). Bush would have still been inaugurated. Members of the House and Senate may still have stood to show their support -- but the media still would have neglected to tell the general public that these Senators and Members of the House received thousands, if not tens of thousands of pieces of correspondence urging them to take action. When the media doesn't inform the general public that large groups are fighting for our own democracy , and instead, pin the contested election on a Feisty Barbara Boxer and Stephanie Tubbs-Jones, the general public is missing the entire picture. Would they have reported this differently if Kerry led the action? Would they have still called those of us Protesting in Ohio and other states "sore losers?"

Unless Kerry was/is holding a golden trump card in his hand that detailed/s everything, and he simply miscalculated when to play it, there really wasn't/isn't much he could do with the hand he was dealt.


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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #60
85. They knew well before that- the possibilty of Massive fraud
I had a conversation with Ted Carter in early September about that.
We knew that in a fair election Kerry would win by 10%.

I knew by 10pm Nov 2nd that the fix was in. Big time.
It had nothing to do with observers not being briefed in time.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
62. Will may I ask you a question
If you consider the concession to have been too soon and a terminal blunder, what do you think waiting would have changed?

Not a rhetorical question. What hypothetically might have changed?

I guess I don't understand how the campaign was going to get anything concrete fast enough to make a difference as far as changing the outcome was concerned. How long realistically could they have waited? What would the Republicans have done differently to fight K/E?

And if people like Madsen are correct, would it have been for naught if these are air votes that would have made a difference?

What would waiting have changed, now that we know pretty much what those people had to say? Would we have had enough evidence in that say, first week to do something different?

Or are we looking at more of a political move so that people would have felt the vote counted since many were still voting? I could have seen that at least, Kerry saying that we should wait for people to finish voting at least, and perhaps for the absentee ballots to be done.

Do you accept his given reason, that he just didn't want to see the country divided any more? Or do you see a different reason?

All I know right now is that I'm sitting here in tears again, feeling helpless and really depressed. It's like I'm reliving Nov. 3 reading this thread.

And I still like Kerry alot. I think he did what he thought was best, even if I'm not sure I agree with his decision. He's moving on, sometimes at the speed of light, fighting in his way. He looks to be keeping up an almost campaign pace. I'm glad he's still around here, there and everywhere.


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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. I am interested too.
It's okay LittleClarkie.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #62
79. William! Ya out there dude?
What does a girl have to do to get her questions answered around here?

I'm on his ignore list. I just know it. (sob!)
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #79
80. Clarkie, it was a really good question!
I think you should start a new post and ask it again! Good Luck! :pals:
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-26-05 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
64. I disagree with your assessment
that John Kerry conceded too soon.As sad as that time was for millions of people,including myself, I believe he had no other choice at that time.The final vote count was not close enough to contest and to contour to refuse to concede based on disenfranchisement and fraud would have been viewed as the actions of a sore loser. Fraud and disenfranchisement take a long time to prove and with our country at war, Kerry's actions would have been portrayed by the White House and the media as threating the security of our country. No person wanting to be president of the United States would want to be viewed as threatening our very security. Another aspect is the way Al Gore was portrayed when he didn't concede immediately. It is my opinion, that Al Gore was labeled as desperate and his credibility damaged by his refusing to accept the fact that he actually lost the election,as it was being portrayed by the republicans and the media. Would John Kerry continue to be respected and effective in the senate if he would have allowed all this to play out indefinitely? As much as I wanted John Kerry to be our president, I think I can understand why he conceded as he did.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #64
72. I think we really have to get off the issue of Kerry, and reviling him...
...or defending him. What's done is done, and we may never know the real reasons why. What's much more important is HOW IT CAME DOWN TO THAT? How did K/E end up in that situation--with an UNVERIFIABLE election, a mountain of evidence of fraud, and a Congress that wouldn't have backed Kerry if he had brought in a hundred "smoking guns" and photos of Karl Rove hacking the central tabulators?

We DO need to assess the Democratic Party and K/E campaign leadership that permitted this election to proceed with an INHERENTLY, OBVIOUSLY, BLATANTLY fraudulent election SYSTEM.

We really need to the answer to that question: What's wrong with the Dem Party and with individual leaders that this could happen without a protest BEFORE THE ELECTION?

It could be:

--surface corruption, Diebold contributing to their campaign coffers, etc.

--sideways corruption, funneling those HAVA billions to the states; or they're supportive of electronics in gov't--big contracts involved

--really deep corruption, Dem leaders who support war in the Middle East, but would just as soon Bush & Co. take the rap for all the deaths and cost (--were never interested in winning the '04 election)

--deep, general corruption--so entangled with the military-industrial complex that ordinary people and their right to vote don't matter any more

--deep, general corruption--living in a bubble of privilege and power

--ignorance, laziness, malfeasance

--fear (fear of getting anthraxed, fear of your plane falling out of the air, fear of blackmail)

We really need to know who we can count on and who we cannot. And we need to figure out whether or not this party is reformable. And priority #1 is to get back our right to vote (which I believe has to be done locally, state by state, precisely because so many Dem national leaders are unreliable).

Electing Kerry was a GRASS ROOTS MOVEMENT first and foremost. WE won! In fact, we beat the pants off the Bush Cartel! So, how did our victory GET STOLEN? How did WE let that happen? How is it that WE put up with leaders who KNEW what a crock electronic voting was, and who controlled it, and what these thieves were likely to do? (--you can't tell me they didn't know--it's their JOB to know how votes are counted!)

And now that we are awakening to how bad things really are, who among them can we rely on NOW? Who can help us?

If it's Kerry--GREAT! If it's Howard Dean (more likely)--GREAT! If it's your local SoS--GREAT! Even if he's a Republican (not too likely).

See what I mean? We have GOT to get past blaming or exonerating Kerry. It just doesn't matter--except in so far as he can help us now, if he can.

It's up to US.

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dandrhesse Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #72
78. I agree with getting on with the underlying issues
I tend to think it is more likely that even if they forsaw the outcome they knew not much could really be done without we, the people really doing the work, waking up to the fact of what had transpired and doing what we are now doing.

The supreme court is controlled by bush, the congress the ag so what recourse could they have had?

They can't get hearings, it's ridiculous.

I think the plan so far has been good, I don't like that we had to suffer through the loss when we know we won, but nothing motivates people more than righteous indignation.

They saw to it that we organized on a local level nationwide, unfortunately in retrospect I think that was probably their highest goal at least at the beginning when it looked like bush would coast to a win. The overwhelming response may have been a real shock to everyone, but we are in a good place organizationally.

Look how many new DU'ers, I'm one who occasionall read but never posted before Will Pitt posted a letter I wrote and I have read daily and posted almost daily since.

We are doing well, we will get there, just not as fast as would be good for everyone that is really hurting right now, and there are lots and lots of folks.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #72
81. I agree
I just don't understand people who always feel they need to assign blame whenever anything goes wrong. I'm talking about people in my real life as well as here on DU.

The thing to focus on is whatever will fix the problem! What will undo the damage or prevent more? Finding solutions is the only constructive thing we can do at this point. Fixing the elections in this country is the only thing that will start mending our broken hearts, not deciding who is to blame!

If people need to blame someone, they need only look toward Pennsylvania Avenue. But even then, we have to go beyond blaming to picking ourselves up off the floor and fighting back.
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dandrhesse Donating Member (500 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #81
89. Are you from WI, or is it just part of your screen ID?
If you are from WI do you know what happened with Accenture? I know it was going to court but have you heard any updates?
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Mar-01-05 01:10 AM
Response to Reply #89
93. I am from Wisconsin
but no, I don't know what happened with Accenture, sorry.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-28-05 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #72
82. Did you read Votescam yet? It has some answers. The whole system
is so much more corrupt that even we knew. Mitofsky and the media are both complicit in fraud.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss//duboard.p...
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GuvWurld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-27-05 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
71. DENIAL - natural, counterproductive, and prevalent in this thread
We've all seen the many references to Orwell over these past five years. A Google search of Bush, Orwell just gave me 384,000 hits. At the core of the many comparisons is cognitive dissonance, a human experience whereby we accept contradictory information and proceed as normal. For example:

  • war will bring peace in the Middle East
  • clear cutting is OK under the Healthy Forest initiative
  • increased pollution is OK under the Clear Skies Act
  • terrorists hate our freedoms so the Patriot Act takes them away

Those are just a few examples that we so-called "lefties" latch onto because we can typically break ourselves free of the contradictions and oppose the dangerous hypocrisy. There are plenty of other examples, however, that continue to delude even some of those who have posted in this thread. Denial is a natural response to cognitive dissonance but it is counterproductive and those of us who can see it owe it to everyone else to point it out. There is no judgment, but more like tough love. This is ruthless honesty.

So if we want to end the myth of democracy in America, we need a realistic picture of what actual democracy would look like. In the most general terms, this means free and fair elections with open competition in the free marketplace of ideas so that We The People may choose leaders who then represent the interest of the greater good. There is plenty of room for debate about the logistics of conducting elections. But there should be no denial that a gigantic corporate-sponsored cog in the machine is actually working toward this same vision of real democracy when every step of the way it is instead perpetuating the myth of democracy. A few examples:

  • failing to stop the 2000 election fraud
  • passing the Patriot Act without reading it (and above all, allowing free speech zones)
  • enabling meek, sham investigations of 9/11 that held no one accountable
  • running a 2004 candidate who did not stand up for peace, civil liberties, the environment, or conditions that would allow for elections to be accepted without question

This is nothing new. Here is a great essay tracing the history of the Democratic Party as a false alternative. Part of the essay's intro reads:
...the main point of this article is not to debunk specific individuals (as viable presidential candidates). Rather, it is to reveal an important aspect of the Democratic Party, its historic role as a counterinsurgency operation whose aim is to co-opt and sidetrack political activists, keep them from creating an independent political movement, and divert their energy into legitimating and reinforcing the political system which maintains the status-quo. Furthermore, the notion that the current Democratic Party represents a total break with that party's tradition will be debunked, revealing that not only today's Democrats, but the essentials of Bush's policies, are rooted in actions taken by Democratic Party administrations.
It can take a lot to break free from Orwellian denial but this article should eliminate any hint of unjustified faith you may still feel in the Dems. Don't expect them to suddenly stop doing what they've *always* done. Perhaps some might say the same to me about trying to inspire grassroots efforts. The difference may be viewed like the Alcoholics Anonymous Serenity Prayer seeking the wisdom to discern the difference between what can and can't be changed. I can change my behavior and you can change your behavior but don't expect that we can change the Dems behavior because our interests are not consistent with those of the party's survival.
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