I have been very skeptical about this "voter fraud" story, but.......

[kentuck]

more and more evidence keeps coming out that there were "errors" in certain precincts in certain states. Now, we hear there were "errors" in Nebraska, of all places. Ohio, FL, and NC have reported likewise. How deep does this go? Do we even have an idea of how many of these "errors" took place?

I have argued that we need to see evidence before we push this story. It seems to me we have seen enough evidence for an investigation. Because, if our votes are not counted accurately, we may as well shut down this government today. Trust in our electoral system is vital to our survival as a nation. How much longer can the media ignore this story? How many more instances of fraud or "errors" must be exposed before they see that the possibility is much larger. We need an answer to this.

[leftyandproud]

1. There are ALWAYS errors like this.

and there always will be.

[bowens43]

10. Do they always favor just one candidate?

If it's true that there are always problems like this don't you think it's damn well time we do something about it?

This wasn't errors, this was intentional. This was fraud.

[Chelsea Patriot]

26. And they always favor *!

[baldguy]

34. Genuine errors would effect all candidates at an equal rate.

ALL of these "errors" favor Bush.

[TexasChick]

2. Perhaps the New Hampshire count will get the ball rolling? n/t

[trotsky]

3. Errors in Nebraska

People might consider it silly if there are errors in solid red states - why would the Mepubs need to interfere in states that are solidly in Bush's column? But part of * winning this election was not just eeking out a win in the E.C. like last time but also having a million+ vote advantage in the popular vote as well.

So by introducing some "stuffing" into solid red states, it beefed up *'s popular vote to assist with this "mandate" crap.

[shcrane]

14. Nebraskan progressives have known about voting problems for years

I was at a meeting the Wednesday after the election, where a Nebraskan poll worker said that she was really surprised that her princinct of 600 people had over 50 provisional ballots this year. She's worked at her polling station for many elections, and the most provisional ballots that she'd ever seen before this election was 2 or 3. She thought it was so weird that so many people were questioned about their ability to vote.

Please read the following article about Nebraska Republican Senator Chuck Hagel's old privately-owned company that owns the voting machines that elected him. It's a disgusting display of conflicting interests.

http://www.omahaimc.org/feature/display/62/index.php

[Eloriel]

28. And Hagel has had a domain name registered for 2008

for a year or two now (I'm assuming he still does).

[txindy]

31. And he'd much rather face-off with another challenger & not the incumbent

It just wouldn't do for Hagel to face Kerry after a successful four years as president. So,....

Just when I think I couldn't get any angrier or more outraged. This is unreal.

[merh]

27. Also, they didn't want * to lose any state.

How could he steal Kerry states (blue states) while losing his base or red states that he won last time?

[txindy]

30. That makes sense

A horrible, scheming kind of sense. :scared: Thanks! :scared:

;)

Wait a moment. Hagel. Doesn't he (or didn't he) own a significant piece of one of the electronic voting machine companies? Wasn't he the first elected republican senator in Nebraska in over a century and a half or so? An even more horrible, scheming notion than the last! Good grief! :grr:

[shelley806]

32. He be the one........n/t

[DebinTx]

4. I agree

and hate that I feel this way but if this is not looked into, I don't think I'll waste my time voting again. When corporations and the media decide the elections for us, what's the point in voting? This is very troubling and noone seems to give a rat's ass what the people think.

[skylarmae]

5. this media silence (except for Olberman) is deafening

the mere fact that Bev Harris said the media is on 'lock down' and the lack of any chatter really says it all. We're in deep shit my friends. I feel silly, but I keep waiting for Kerry and all the brave warriors from Nam to come to the rescue, armed with the facts and enough generals to do what is necessary.

[Jack_Dawson]

6. Funny...none of the errors helped Kerry?

Hmmmm...

Duh people this was as rigged an election as anything we've seen in South America. It's disturbing to think about, but it's there.

[txindy]

33. Popular 'wisdom' is that genuine mistakes happen in every election

And, human error being what it is, that's probably correct. So why haven't we found one single error anywhere in John Kerry's favor? In all of the data we've looked at, we only see so-called errors for B*sh. That's just not possible!

[aquart]

7. They got their popular total by upping Bush votes in state after state.

Especially states that went to Kerry where people wouldn't look carefully because it was a Kerry win, after all. Like New York and New Hampshire. Most of New York isn't on the machines, but some of it is.

They went into county tabulators which are plain old Windows machines, with convenient modems, and altered the votes.

I have no idea why you're skeptical. Bev Harris has been criss-crossing the nation demonstrating how easy it is to steal our votes. After Florida, the Republicans rammed thru hasty legislation mandating machines made and controlled by, who knew, Republicans. Did you hear about Sequoia giving the damn things away to make sure they were in the western states in time?

Been reading what happened to provisional ballots in state after state?

Time to pass thru the denial stage.

[mhr]

8. Glad To Have You On Board Kentuck

Our guts tell us instinctively that they stole the election.

Regardless of that sentiment, the four republican companies that manufacture paper-trail-less machines need to go.

We need either nationally certified non-partisan election machine companies or a nationally approved vote system that can be manufactured by any third party.

If this "fraud" investigation does nothing more than "resolve" the election machine issue, we will have made great strides.

PS - myself and others have offered to design and implement an "open source" vote count and collection system that would be given away at cost to election authority. So far no one has shown interest in supporting the effort.

[kentuck]

9. It seems this is beyond ignoring....

Trust alone is not enough. As Reagan said, "Trust, but verify."

[LisaL]

12. I am having a hard time with a "trust" part.

:eyes:

[kentuck]

15. We are to "trust" the vote counting was done fairly and accurately..

We have no proof that it was. There is no paper trail. Wht do we have to go on except "trust" them??

[bostonbabs]

13. Olberman/MSNBC

....Olberman needs the OK of producers and executives to say what he says on "his" program.Don't neglect the higher ups as wanting the same thing we want.....Rove crashed CBS with Rathergate ...NBC has remained OK so far.

[springhill]

24. You are so right mhr,

My gut, along with some very prominent columnists we read here on DU (Chris Floyd for one) have been saying for three years (after 911) that this criminal regime would not relinquish power. They have so much dirty, corrupt garbage to be found out if they lose an election. And how on earth are they going to finish their democratization of the globe through force if they are not in charge? No, just think about it. These people don't care what we think is good for the country. They know what is good for us, and by God (literally) the ends justifys the means. These guys are lunatics. All you had to do to see that was watch Bush at his first press conference. He wasn't there to serve the poeple, he was the ruler, the emporer.

[John Q. Citizen]

11. This isn't about this election.

This is about our whole system of self governence.

I have no idea if there was any hanky panky at all this election. So let's find out.

We NEED computer vote audits so that we may have confidence in our whole system.

[drunkdriver-in-chief]

16. I say push the story even without evidence

Dems still don't understand that in politics, an accusation is as good as a fact. Look at how much mileage the repugs got from the swift boat vet BS story. Dems should call the GOP the election criminal party. Say it right now and keep it up and if the evidence comes along, all the better.

[Spangle]

21. Non-Partisin is the key

Your 100% correct on the accusation stuff. But I think we could get more support by going after the makers of these machines.

Going after the party effects EVERYONE in that party and puts them on defensive. I'm sure that not ALL republican Elections officals was part of this mess. Not everyone is dirty. These machines are tampered with by the makers. They are being hacked by "others." The election officals are being hung out on this one.

Elections are a busy time for our elections offices. It's hard to catch every HUMAN mistake, much less the computer ones as well.

[cdp]

29. I respectfully disagree

We can't just throw a bunch of accusations at the wall and see what sticks. If we do that, all someone needs to do is disprove one accusation and everything goes down the toilet. Someone here mentioned Dan Rather as an example. The fact that THE INDIVIDUAL STORY was discredited led many people to discredit THE ENTIRE IDEA that Bush was a string pulling AWOLer.

In my opinion, every accusation of fraud should be completely researched before it gets thrown to the media.

[liberal N proud]

17. If the media does nothing they will loose as well.

Eventually, the government will do as they have done in all authoritarian scocieties, shut down the media until there is one outlet totally controled by the government.
They are killing democracy and their own way of life.

On Edit:
I say we outsource our news agencies to BBC.

[ecoalex]

18. Sen. Chuck Hagel ran and lost Neb. After selling his machines to Neb.

he won. Hagel was a ground breaker for the repugs.

[Spangle]

19. Very deep, and for a long time. Should be non-partisin.

How Deep? All the way to the top.. The makers of the machines, that is. It starts there. There are KNOWN flaws in the systems that are there for a reasons. If "we" personaly bought a defective product, we would have returned it for our money back. Then we would go with someone else. But there is a racket going on.

It's important in the red states as well. Because this problem will KEEP those states red.. permently. No other party (even third party) will have a chance there, unless it's "ok'ed".

How deep.. it effects primarys. It keeps us from selecting anyone or anything. Another words, it even effects ALL the partys, ALL the voters.

Also, it's not just the machines. They are hackable. That leaves the doors open for special intrest groups.. including political partys or segments of them. Again, that effects EVERYBODY!

Add all that to political.. aghm... "games" and you got one great big mess. We can't always stop the "games" everywhere. But we can force them to choose voting machines that are trust worthy.

It is ONLY after a Presidentual election when people are gathering data and it's all "fresh" in peoples mind. When people realize how important this issue is... that ANYTHING can be done about this. These people are to big, to powerful to tackle on a 1 on 1 bases. The information and court cases are just being ignored across country. With it on the national page, we can get Congress and the Senete involved. Persons from BOTH partys!

For the most part, if it doesn't effect a person personaly,or someone they know.. they ignore issues. "It will not happen to me." But let a person see that it CAN happen to anyone.. that is a different story. Right now, people realize that their vote is being taken away. Even people who before never voted, didn't care about voting.. they don't want to loose their RIGHT to vote. Tell someone they can't do something, the more they WANT to do it. Humans are funny that way.

So, even in areas were Kerrry will NOT come away with more votes.. we need to investigate. This should be seen as a bi-partisin issue.. because IT IS! The Republicans complain about us "stealing" votes all the time. They also see us as people who play dirty political tricks. Most of it is myth and used to get their people to ignore or "ok" anything they might see or do.... Either way, the local voters, our neighbors, family and friends... No matter the party registration, we need to show them how much the benifit from getting behind this issue. And help them to understand that it's only AFTER a national election that we can get the most done on this issue. Remind them of storys of Chicago and the JFK election...

[kentuck]

20. My major concerns are that this may drive down Democratic turnout and

cause a repeat of the 2002 election where the turnout was miserable for us and we had expected more. However, this issue is more important than just this election. Our goal should be to assure the people of this country a fair and accurate tally of each and every vote. This is about our future.

[mzmolly]

22. I totally agree. The most important thing WE can do is to make sure our

system has integrity. If it did these questions would not be.
I say we have to push the fraud story hard because that's the only way we'll get the much needed attention that this deserves.

I'm about 80% convinced fraud occurred myself and am more disgusted that I have to question that possibility in the USA.

[kentuck]

23. I agree mzmolly...

It is totally demoralizing and heartbreaking to even think this could happen in our country. But we cannot ignore these stories. How many more are out there? How many votes were stolen for one candidate or the other is not as important as finding out the truth about this matter. If we do not do this now, we may never have another "fair" election.

I think it is important that we not appear as over-reacting or looking like "sore losers" but we need to be persistent and keep this story alive until we are assured that the fraud did not occur. It is our way of fighting for our democracy. That is what our battle is about.

[txindy]

35. Now I'm concerned about the red states

How many of them really are red?! People who live there but vote blue may only think they're in the minority. We know that repubs are certainly LOUDER than we are, so they seem to outnumber us in places (like here, in Texas **sigh** ), but what is the reality? Oh. Right. 'Reality'. Never mind. We're no longer living in that community. :eyes:

[seemslikeadream]

25. A Petition to Congress requesting an investigation into the Presidential E

To: United States Congress
TO: All members of the Congress of the United States of America; all Senators and Members of the House of Representatives

A Petition to immediately and without delay open a joint investigation into potential wrongdoing in the Presidential Election of 2004, specifically to investigate the potential of voting machine manipulation or purposeful malfunction, especially electronic voting machines manufactured and supplied by Diebold, Inc.; Electronic Systems & Software (ES & S); Sequoia Voting Systems, and others, and also to identify and investigate all allegations of improper conduct by election officials, workers, observers, challengers and operatives and employees of both major parties concerning the voting process including intimidation, dissemination of improper information, manipulation of registration records, improper handling of actual voting ballots and, in general, any and all potential improprieties which could have led to improper or inaccurate election results.

Such inquiries should not be limited to any particular state, precinct or district but strive to examine the voting process in any and all areas in which there is even the slightest indication of impropriety, but especially in the states of Florida, Ohio, Georgia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Virginia, West Virginia, Nevada, New Mexico, Iowa, Arkansas, Missouri, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Minnesota, Texas and New Hampshire, and not limit such investigation, and expand such investigations to cover Senatorial races as well, especially those in Kentucky, Florida and South Dakota.

We, the undersigned, request that our elected representatives act in accordance with the Constitution of the United States of America in a legal, impartial and expedient manner for an open hearing before the people of the United States and if such wrongdoing, illegal practices, manipulation of voting records or processes is of such a nature to indicate egregious or extensive tampering, alteration or misappropriation of the voting process that the violators be brought to justice and remedies, potentially including a nationwide audit, recall, recount or new election be imposed by your bodies.

We feel it is our patriotic duty to request such action from you, our elected officials, and your duty to respond in a responsible manner.

Sincerely,


http://www.petitiononline.com/uselect/petition.html