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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-12-05 10:52 PM
Original message
E-Voting to be Gone Sooner Than you Think
Edited on Sat Feb-12-05 10:56 PM by Land Shark
DREs Will Be Gone Sooner Than You Think, Because Who Will Rise to Defend Secret Corporate Vote Counting??

(edited to state that the $100 bet below can be accepted only by established DU member with verifiable screen name, disclosed identity in private message to me, and over 100 posts as of this posting. Offer expires 2/14/05 at 1:00 a.m. EST.)

The key is to frame the issue as one of secrecy. Then to make the public realize that secrecy in vote COUNTING kills democracy.

My attorney has made case law before where none thought possible, but ejecting secret vote counters from our elections is not based on a novel legal theory at all.... (WA case Birklid v. Boeing)

It's my belief, based on actual interest around the country, that various other jurisdictions will soon get sued to remove DREs because of secret vote counting, shortly after our lawsuit is filed. We will publish how we did ours so others don't have to reinvent the wheel. Soon, if we collectively
know what is good for us, many people will want to be the first on their block to sue, and you can have cocktail parties with activists and ask others as an icebreaker: "Have you filed your suit yet?"

One way to stop DRE purchases is to point out to elections officials that their legal counsel will have to advise them of their possible legal exposure if they privatize vote counting to a corporate hard drive. They should budget for this exposure if they want to turn our democracy into even more of a joke. And even in the doubtful case that citizens have no legal right to observe the counting of the votes to verify its integrity for themselves in some particular state jurisdiction other than Washington state, this issue will only grow and likely result in officials spending money to take away citizens rights spotting their opponents in the next election at least 5 percentage points, perhaps 20 or more.

This should be able to prevent DRE purchases, at least by accountable elected officials.

Don't raise money for attorneys' fees, unless necessary just to keep the lawyers' doors open as in Ohio. Don't quote me or other lawyers may get upset, but if a lawyer wants to charge more than that needed to stay alive, go find a more patriotic lawyer.

I'll go out on a limb and say DREs will be shut down in Snohomish county before the end of 2005. Soon everyone will be able to see the lawsuit online and send the link to their local auditors and election officials for them to evaluate. Anyone that wants to bet against that, email me back, the amount of the bet is $100 per USE person accepting the bet (individual bets between me and any person accepting, for $100).

The minute "the people" (more than just us, but we have a big role in educating the people) realize that they own this democracy and that democracy is nothing without a citizen-verifiable counting of the vote, then they will instantly have the motivation to ask the trespassers on our democracy to leave immediately. It will take no more courage than it takes to tell a trespasser to leave your personal property. Therefore, at the instant the people realize that democracy is ours, at that instant victory becomes inevitable.

Another myth: it will take "courageous" lawyers, etc., to stop this.

I mean c'mon. If a foreign country made a "modest proposal" to not demand any of our airports, cities or factories, but merely required us to hand over the votecounting to them under secret unverifiable circumstances, what would that be but an attempted takeover of democracy or act of war? Would we need "courageous lawyers" to put a stop to it? As soon as there was a critical mass, there wouldn't be a day of peace until the occupiers left.

If you keep your eyes on the prize and really concentrate on why this is wrong, not just for Kerry supporters but for all of democracy, then you will be focused like a laser beam on that's wrong instead of distracted by a million details. That in itself makes everyone more clear and more persuasive.

If you can not find a lawyer to do this for real cheap (and you can raise money for that) after you present them with a persuasive case, then leave that lawyer's office and go find a more patriotic, qualified lawyer willing to sacrifice some billable hours for the good of her country.

Start lobbying people who've never been lobbied before. Get a group of people who will first go into the elections office and IF AND ONLY IF you have a nice chat with someone there so they know you, then start sending them a daily letter, email or phone call, and have your closest thousand friends to the same. Peacefully picket the elections officials homes every Saturday at nonthreatening hours. Realize that everyone can be a leader and you don't need to wait around for a lawyer or an "organizer" to help you.

There can be no compromise with invisible vote counting. The secret vote counters can NOT stick their hands all the way into the pockets of democracy and then negotiate to back out HALF way. Secret or invisible vote counting must be terminated, with prejudice. (Open source code: good idea, but still invisible and unverifiable by average active non-expert citizen) The ultimate standard is whether the average citizen can see for herself it's fair without needing to hire an expert.

A hundred technical tweakings of bills and amendments will cost you everything and get you little. Keep your eyes on the prize, as MLK said. Not on the details and the diversionary brushfires started by bad bills.

The power, as always is in framing and creating the AGENDA. All the debates under that AGENDA are the necessary but ultimately trivial bleatings of bureaucratic detail. The AGENDA is OPEN (OBSERVABLE), FREE, FAIR, TRANSPARENTLY VERIFIABLE BY AVERAGE CITIZENS WITHOUT EXPERT HELP elections.

We can still debate under such a general standard, but if we can agree on the test for democracy with integrity, whatever we come up with will be acceptable in the end if it complies with the test we've framed.

And if not, a very popular referendum can be fashioned around the language we can all agree on. How many people will vote to retain secret vote counting? Everyone that votes to retain will have the votes counted by their political enemies! : )

Previous post on the lawsuit at:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
=203x318785

Paul R. Lehto, Attorney at Law
LEHTO & PENFIELD, PLLC
2829 Rucker Avenue, 3rd Floor
P.O. Box 1091
Everett, WA 98206-1091
425-257-2297 (voice)
425-258-5041 (fax)
paul@lehtopenfield.com

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flyarm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-12-05 10:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i will await your further posts and may initiate a suit here in fla!!

thank you!!!!

flyarm

and welcome to du!! :hi:
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Melodybe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-12-05 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Here here and a big kick to this post
I wish that we could use open source like in Europe, they pay people rewards for finding flaws in voting software.

This is one issue that democrats should really grab onto, it is not just a democratic issue.

I plan on having a petition at my democratic table in the coming months people really should know more about this issue.

Welcome to DU!
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NationalEnquirer Donating Member (571 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #1
51. AWSOME work!
You guys are the greatest!
I am in sunny FLA, can't wait for this to get here!
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AmBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #1
61. And I'll do anything I can....
to help you here in Florida, fly...
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-12-05 11:12 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's ON!!!! Bucko!
See your inbox.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-12-05 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. I see my inbox, and I raise you $20
Thanks for PM'ing your real name and screen name. You might want to explain though what you are going to do with the $100 in the event you win! : )

The offer is hereby modified, if too many people want to hedge their activism with this $100 consolation, I get to pay anytime in the first six months of 2006 (since I won't be earning much money during the suit, I may need time to round it up).

That being said, the offer is still open until the time stated above, as amended.
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-12-05 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. See You $25.00
Edited on Sat Feb-12-05 11:37 PM by Unforgiven
and if I win, it won't matter much, because $125.00 won't buy anyone anything of much value outside this country, or for that matter in this country!!!
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-12-05 11:41 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Don't give away the Secret Unforgiven!!
(seceret is: In any case, the bet will be paid with currency worth nothing by 2006 thanks to GWB economic policies and falling dollar).
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-12-05 11:46 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. PM Me
on where you want funding sent, made out to: blah, blah, Ect, Ect.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. Address in main post; How about a BOUNTY on restoring open democracy?
Unforgiven is on, at $145.

Hmmm, I'm thinking of a novel new type of fee agreement: If Land Shark and his faithful sidekick attorney make Snohomish County safe for democracy, how much is democracy worth to you? i.e., how much are you willing to donate to the charity of YOUR CHOICE if we boot a certain large e-voting company out of the County in a rather public fashion?

Hmmmmmmm, it might be nice to have a million dollar bet on the line. Don't pay me, pay charity, but only if we deliver you your democracy back?

Any takers on that?

Contribute toward the bounty on Democracy in Snohomish County?

no results= no fee.

That's a million dollar idea!

Only catch, Bounty posters must consent to be on our email list for lawsuit updates, and declare by email or PM there amount, favorite charity, and email address for update purposes.
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #13
31. This has got to be the way and the right frame. Kick n/t
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Nothing Without Hope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-12-05 11:16 PM
Response to Original message
4. Wonderful! Let's get rid of another frame: "All lawyers are bad"!
Edited on Sat Feb-12-05 11:20 PM by Nothing Without Hope
Fact is, we need patriotic lawyers in this fight and they are indeed out there and fighting.

Nominated for HP.

edited to add: This post also makes the vitally important point that FRAMING, so much in discussions lately, is central to the fight. This is about SECRECY OF VOTE COUNTING, so that votes can be STOLEN. We need to keep on message about the language to get the point across to people who don't understand the threat to democracy that this is.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-12-05 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #4
12. Secrecy and non-observability by nonexperts

In the worst case scenario, we are talking a slam dunk referendum for a constitutional amendment to state constitutions. Whose gonna vote for secret vote counting?

Open source loses some of the secrecy but still as a practical matter it will be quite expensive for any individual or even small group to verify what existed electronically on election day, verify that it was not subject to viruses or tampering, and in addition since this happens after the election there is tremendous pressure and spin not to raise issues at all, and besides most Democrats and a lot of Republicans can't afford to hire a computer expert to do so anyway. That's why I say it's important that the average citizen activist, without expert help, be able to verify both that their own vote was counted by that the process as a whole was fair. (If too many people, there can be a lottery or they can move the counting to a gymnasium or something.

Accuracy has to be front-loaded into the process, not at the expensive recount level. There are ways to do that by splitting ballots into hand counting groups and op-scanning machines (if needed) so that if the groups don't come out with similar results on election nite, no results are released until the problem is found. Thus, even if a person could succeed in tricking or corrupting his entire counting group, that will be caught by discrepancies with the other counting groups or methods.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
76. See this thread for reinforcement of what you are saying here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

This is testimony by NY citizen activist who makes many of the same points you do, but doesn't talk about the lawsuit piece. She does talk about how secret vote counting has no place in a democracy, and why.
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-12-05 11:18 PM
Response to Original message
5. Land Shark; no way I'll bet against you, but I'm willing to 'bank you'...
Edited on Sat Feb-12-05 11:19 PM by understandinglife
....for up to US $300.00, should you lose.

Peace and thank you for your brilliant leadership.

(nominated for 'DU greatest hits')



"HOW DO YOU LIKE BEING A CITIZEN OF A ROGUE SUPER_POWER?"
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-12-05 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Thanks UL, you're a tireless champion yourself! nt
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #5
45. Hi understanding!
Nice to meet you in a thread when my eyes are happy and bright instead of staring blankly and my optimism has ascended to your league.
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-12-05 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
11. We've
only had 4-5 people read this post and replied? Huh?


C'MON PEOPLE, I KNOW YOU ARE A HELL OF A LOT MORE VOCAL THAN THIS!!!!!!
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:15 AM
Response to Original message
14. Yes, DO Tell, How Much is Verifiable Democracy Worth to You?
Attn: framing dept, we need a new frame, new frame

Verified Voting changes name to Verifiable Democracy.

What should we call those who are against verifiable democracy?

And how much is democracy worth to you? And what charity is your favorite???

Please post your answers. I'd like to see Snohomish County's verifiable democracy worth at least $1 million to this country, since the Sequoia machines were worth $5 million to the County and only handled 32% of the recent general election vote.

What is democracy worth? If Iraq's democracy is worth $80 billion to US taxpayers and climbing rapidly, what is US democracy worth?

But again, this is for the liberation of one county on the west coast from which we can form a beachhead on the rest of the entire nation.
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sagesnow Donating Member (311 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #14
67. Reframers: Veifiable Democracy wins the RAY!
Land Shark's Verifiable Democracy deserves to win DU's "Reframing Award of the Year" (RAY) or at the very least a RAM (Reframing Award of the Month)
Does Anyone want to start a RAF (Reframing Award Forum)- if there is already one started please tell me where.

Excellent life work, Land Shark. I'm awed.

:yourock:
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:18 AM
Response to Original message
15. what about all the places that already have machines?
Like the entire state of Florida. They've just spent many millions of dollars. They won't abandon them as easily as you think.
What system do you want to put in their place?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. We're asking the court to order e-voting purchase money returned
Contracts attempting to void out our democracy are.... Void.

Surprise, eh?!!

And the court can order a remedy called rescission or disgorgement or various other names in different places.

But this is about one county in Washington state and we will not accept any other cases elsewhere (i.e. this is not advertising). But we will take phone calls whenever we can.
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imenja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I see, so your bet is only about one county?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. One county is what the post talks about, may lead to others
A lot of tobacco suits lost but people learned from each other, and then things changed...
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keepthemhonest Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #17
68. yipee
i really like that part of your plan.I can't wait to hear more.
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starmaker Donating Member (520 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
16. why cant we count?
Look forward to more info to pass out in nc.
there's a whole lot more voters than there are politicians.
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Unforgiven Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:39 AM
Response to Original message
19. This is
better, more is better, be it positive or negative.
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Old and In the Way Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 12:56 AM
Response to Original message
20. You deserve your own forum here, I think.
What would be great is to find 49 more lawyers thinking exactly like you and coordinate your resources/pool your talents to make it happen, nationally. This needs to be done before 2006.

Seriously, I think a forum devoted to your legal effort would be great. You'd get all kinds of activists to contribute and support your efforts here, no doubt.

BTW, I'd think the DNC should be willing to support the effort, but I understand if your trying to keep it non-partisan. Thing is, the consistant injured party in e-voting always seems to be the Democrat.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. T;hanks, that's backed up by my own research report
showing Democrats got hurt:
www.votersunite.org/info/SnohomishElectionFraudInvestig...

But it COULD happen the other way, since it would only take one person. Easy to make it bipartisan by asking if you'd trust your political enemy to count the votes. And if you trust YOUR FRIEND to count the votes, that is someone else's POLITICAL ENEMY.

Although i'm all in favor of maximizing trust, in vote counting trust=oppression by political enemies.

Like judges have to satisfy the appearance of fairness doctrine (even if the facts all check out, it also has to LOOK good) in order for confidence to be retained in the judiciary, it is even more important that elections have the appearance of fairness as well as the reality of fairness.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 01:38 AM
Response to Original message
23. OMFG! I just
got back from a local pub with my wife,and I told her the same thing, we are going to bet 2006. Of course I didn't put it as good as you did,but with what I read so far here, you are on the right track. And if you remember my e-mail to you. Count me in. kster89....
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UL_Approved Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 02:47 AM
Response to Original message
24. If you want transparency, start a software project
This could be easily started on SourceForge.net. I've debated for some time as to whether to start one or not.

If I did, I would make several criterion:

The ballot form will not be a software class (structure). It will be a data file that is stored on an encrypted smart card on a central server.

Individual ballots will be referenced at polls like a credit card. This is to say that a magnetic strip will contain a key code for each record.

Ballots will be sent to a server via an encrypted link to check for validation (ID) and whether they have voted already.

Voting terminals will find the appropriate ballot for people to vote on. This will ensure that the "wrong booth" issue is resolved.

A paper copy will be printed of the ballot that was voted on.

Data from a ballot will be sent directly to a server via an encrypted link following the completion of the ballot.

Any problems from the paper copy will be brought to an assistant to be documented and signed for corroboration.

Voting stations will NOT have any local disks for storage.

All voting stations will be tied to servers through wire connections, and low-power RF jammers will be used at the voting locations.

Several servers will receive copies of the information, so as to verify results.

Polling servers will not allow totals to be accessed until after the close of polls for all connected precincts.


Any suggestions for a software/hardware based system for voting?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I think it's got to be understandable to a non-technical person n/t
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 12:21 PM
Response to Reply #25
54. understandable--yes-- there is no digital representation of individual
votes in a touchscreen. Therefore they do not conform to recount procedures used in (most likely) all 50 ststes--thusly all Touchscreens are illegal.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 02:59 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. It sounds good
but I have a headache now. Paper ballots Hand Counted is so much easier.
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BanzaiBonnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 05:35 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. And when I suggestedpaper ballots, hand counted
Edited on Sun Feb-13-05 05:35 AM by BanzaiBonnie
to Sam Reed and the Washington State Election Reform Task Force on Thursday, in Vancouver, all I got from the panel were blank stares.

Totally dismissed.

When I brought up the most important issue of voting on machines that were owned by private corporations they again had blank stares. It was if they had never heard of such a thing, didn't get it, and weren't interested.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Ya wonder sometimes if they'll understand paper lawsuits?
Some people have different levels and take a little longer to start to take things seriously.
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Quakerfriend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 07:34 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Haaaaaaaaa! LOL!
THat's one way to explain it!

Thanks for your wonderful efforts Land Shark!!
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #27
70. My group is working on sound bites. Here are two: Secret vote counting
must end. Privitizing and oursourcing vote counting must end. Of course it requires much more education that just giving them sound bites, but we thought some sound bites would be good too.
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BushSpeak Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 07:52 AM
Response to Original message
30. Landshark: What's the time frame on your lawsuit? - Think Ohio
This idea could have a major impact on the current Ohio voting machine selection controversy.

If the county boards are informed that they may face a legal action against e-voting machines, they might want to wait and see how this turns out before making a big investment. But this will have to be done rather quickly, before the election officials put their reputation on the line.

Any takers in Ohio? Can anyone get this to Susan Truitt?

I live in France (originally from Ohio) and am probably more efficient using my time to work with the French media.
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #30
34. It will be filed sooner rather than later, Feb 2005 n/t
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nmoliver Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 09:06 AM
Response to Original message
32. the other DU link doesn't work for me n/t
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. You can find it as "Freedom and Contracts for Secret Vote Counting"
under the election 2004 forum or you can try this link

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... >
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enough Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
33. Kick
Thank you.
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super simian Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 03:13 PM
Response to Original message
36. So what changed?
Growing up in the 1950s when they used to teach American History I think I heard somewhere that a sound democracy rests on a verifiable vote count. I think it was even the right answer on a test I took once.

So what changed so that now it is perfectly legal to keep vote counting technology secret? How could anyone have even considered for one single second that it is okay to count our votes in the deep dark recesses of cyber-space where no one can see it?

Is there anyone you know who doesn't have a computer on their desk? Is there anyone who hasn't had to deal with the threat of a computer virus? How can it be that the majority of Americans just don't get the concept of computer vote fixing? Can we really be so stupid?

It is incomprehensible to me, Land Shark, that unverifiable vote counts could possibly be legal. But maybe somewhere along the line I turned a corner and stepped into another dimension. Sometimes, it just seems like that must be the way it happened.

So thanks for your very refreshing and down-to-earth essays. I just wish there was some way we could go back and reverse the damage. But I guess I'll just have to settle for hope fore the future.

:yourock:


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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #36
59. There are some things that people just don't want to believe
Psychologists call it denial, and some call it naivite. In this country, our voting system is one of those sacred cows that too many people refuse to believe could possiby be corrupt, simply because they don't want to believe it. It's almost the same principle that led to the rise of Hitler in the 1930s.
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super simian Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 01:10 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Good call, thanks! n/t
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #59
64. True sometimes, but not if framed as secret voting
last night even the republicans were saying secret voting with black boxes is wrong, at least half of 'em. The other half made misleading arguments about the "objectivity" and "reliability" of machines. Good to have an example in hand that machines don't spread error evenly among parties....
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
37. Ha! You are so right on so many points, I want to give you a great big...
Edited on Sun Feb-13-05 03:25 PM by Peace Patriot
...KISS!!!!

Are you aware of the Kevin Shelley situation in California? If not, go to...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Ojai Person has done a fab compilation of all relevant urls. One tiny bit of silver lining--to losing one of the few honest Secretaries of State in the nation--is that we won't have to sue HIM, we'll get to sue a Schwarz-appointed Republican!

----

You wrote:

"There can be no compromise with invisible vote counting....(Open source code: good idea, but still invisible and unverifiable by average active non-expert citizen)

"The ultimate standard is whether the average citizen can see for herself it's fair without needing to hire an expert. (!!!!!!!!!!!!)

"A hundred technical tweakings of bills and amendments will cost you everything and get you little. Keep your eyes on the prize, as MLK said. Not on the details and the diversionary brushfires started by bad bills.

"The power, as always is in framing and creating the AGENDA. All the debates under that AGENDA are the necessary but ultimately trivial bleatings of bureaucratic detail. The AGENDA is OPEN (OBSERVABLE), FREE, FAIR, TRANSPARENTLY VERIFIABLE BY AVERAGE CITIZENS WITHOUT EXPERT HELP elections."

Yes, yes, yes and yes! You've really got this issue nailed!

-----

I worry about the courts, though--along with so many worries these days. Didn't someone in Florida sue for a paper trail before the election--a quite logical and right-on suit since Florida REQUIRES a recount under certain circumstances, and how can you recount without a paper trail?--and didn't Jeb Bush step and kill that lawsuit?

Now we have secret torture memo writers for Bush on the 9th Circuit! The paths back to democracy get narrower and narrower.

I saw Californians' right to review long term corporate logging plans and to participate in natural resource decisions (CEQA rights) EVAPORATE in a timber-friendly packed court. It destroyed any faith I had in the civil justice system.

Anyway, I'm for using ANY PEACEFUL MEANS WE CAN DEVISE and ANY OPPORTUNITY THAT WE SEE--such as the one you see here-- to restore democracy in this country.

That's all. We MUST do it.

And my line is that vote counting must occur at human speed, and be visible to the human eye.

You are so right that this is a state by state, locality by locality battle! The BushCons in Congress took away our right to vote. They're never going to give it back. Democrats can fuss with the language of yet more HAVA bills all they want. Maybe educational value, that's all. Although they truly represent the majority of the country, they don't have the votes even to get a paper trail, let alone a VVPB. And we know why...

What are you doing re: Democrats in WA who stupidly or corruptly support electronic voting? Anything? (We're have a REAL SERIOUS PROBLEM with them in Calif.!)
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Thank you Peace Patriot for the great big kiss!!!!
and all the lovely comments. Keep passing those big wet ones, as needed to whomever, they are part of the currency of social desire, and as Peter Gabel asks in the Bank Teller "what is a movement but an upwelling of *social* desire?" (nothing moves in a movement unless it's a demonstration going down the street). Too bad some people only understand desire in a completely "privatized" sense. But there's hope for them too.

Because social desire, when it picks up, is not only intoxicating but transformative and successful, it therefore pays off in spades to think about what "moves" us most, because that will zero in on what's most critical for ultimate success by identifying the central wellsprings of social desire. That's my "agenda".
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
39. Oregon is a beacon in the fog for the wisdom of paper ballots.
Exit polls and final tallies were almost dead-on accurate. Except for the SOB Sproul who came here and tore up Dem registrations, everything was about as transparent as it can be in the current political atmosphere.

Oregon should be consistently cited as a foremost example of verifiable voting.

Good work, Land Shark. You sound like you have an infinite reserve of energy. You'll need it :D
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Yeah, I haven't heard much but good out of OR vote/mail system n/t
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SpaceBuddy008 Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 07:58 PM
Response to Original message
41. THNX LandShark info printed Very Focused, Very Inspired!
absolutely one of the most inspiring and motivating election posts since January 1st A.D. (=J6.2005,After the Death of Democracy)

I am already practicing my persuasive arguments

your ideas and framing will be used in intro's to my open mike rants, poems

will contact activists, the statistician-know one of the famous 9 here in Cuyahoga county

with your excellent airtight imperative adjudication and the unbelievable great and clever arguments from computer security expert www.chuckherrin.com

the future is waiting for us to get there

this bs is a house of cards

there is mass confusion in ohio and many counties, financialyy strapped are livid with blackwells wrong and dictatorial directives

we have been granted an extension for machine choice(none!) in Cuyahoga till F23

as cliff arnebeck says the law is on our side

throw out the trespassers

I will get the word out about your patriotic mission

Our vote is NOT For Sale

Renegade authorities addicted to lying, concealing, distortion poisoning the channels of info, communication and no qualms about betraying the public trust are definately NOT FreedomProducers or LibertyLovers but guilty of WorldWide False Advertising

*The Future Enters inTO Us , in Order to Transform Us, Long Before it Happens
Ranier Maria Rilke

Democracy?
F
O
R
S
A
K
EN.....
DEMOCRACY! ...RESCUED, party on HOLD...............
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Thanks Spacebuddy! Just don't call it "my" mission when it ....
clearly is YOURS as well. We all got a piece of the rock called democracy, our task is to make others FEEL that.
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satya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
43. You are a hero, a patriot, a wizard, a true star (oops, dating myself ...)
:yourock:
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anamandujano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-13-05 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
44. I feel better already!
Thank you, thank you a million times. I believe you are correct.
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bardgal Donating Member (212 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 12:29 AM
Response to Original message
46. I WISH I WISH I WISH!!!!
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
47. Yo Jaws,
I am really pressed for time lately for personal reasons, but if we wanted to make our local officials aware of what you're planning, as a DRE-deterrent of some kind, what's the best post or other message of yours to send to them? The one at the top of your "Freedom..." thread perhaps, or something else? I did forward that one to a local attorney friend, but as I said, he's useless! Is it suitable to send to local legislators or BOEs do you think? Is it suitable for framing? :)

Sorry I can't chat more tonight!
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #47
48. The lawsuit may be a suitable primer, perhaps even suitable
for framing.

But when we release the lawsuit, it will come with a press release and probably a short op-ed that will encapsulate it nicely.

Youjust gave me a good idea though, and that is to add a suggested cover message for email forwarders, covers for politicians and covers for BOE officials, so all feel welcome to this party celebrating a rebirth of democracy.

In this case, a lawsuit is not just an invitation to court, but an invitation for all to rediscover once again what democracy and America are actually all about.
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #48
49. Well, I'm glad I thought of it then! nt
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 02:36 AM
Response to Original message
50. This whole "proprietary secrets" stuff came from ONE Federal Judge.
Back in the early days of the BBV movement, some wingnut judge said that the source code of the election machines was "proprietary business secrets", and could not be available to the general public.

I don't know whose pocket he was in, but I'll tell you right now, he was a wingnut!!

It was the most outrageous ruling that has probably EVER come out of an American courtroom!!

I think your spin on it steps around that stupid ruling, O8) and I hope and pray your lawsuit is successful, and spreads like wildfire! O8)
:kick: :kick: :kick:
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. There are so many bills now that require disclosure of the code
Edited on Mon Feb-14-05 12:14 PM by Bill Bored
State as well as federal.

Are any of them law yet? Can they be challenged once they are?

Will the e-voting company be able to do business in the meantime in a state where such laws are passed without disclosing their code?
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. in the current enviroment- not really--That was the idea to have the
source code protected by Corp. Law.
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SpaceBuddy008 Donating Member (206 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
55. Scary only 50 responses ONLY Issue-Time to stand be counted
UNPRECENDENTED in American history for government to claim, assume Inalienable rights to rig, run, ruin and OWN YOUR LIFE! and help dig your grave ,how are you and WE going to rescue our country and humanity fro this dangerous abyss?

Lets get real and ON tHE BALL

I wonder really how many on this forum are truly concerned and adamant about rescuing democracy and saving their country?

This is a historical UNPRECENDENTED attack on representative govern ment and Western civilization itself!

I can't believe a post in the election section about the imminent, likely demise of DRE's do to no one being able to stand and defend Secret Vote Counting has only 40 something responses, considering it relates to concrete lawsuit which can be used as a template to cleanse this cancer ,county by county.

When inane, frivolous threads can generate 100's of comments, its free and fun to commiserate openly to help each find out where we stand, what priorities matter BUT, duty clarion calls like never before.We have lost the ability to replace our government by the ballot box, our creation claims they don't need The people's concent anymore.We must talk and act on this affront DAILY.


We are filing a serendipitous void by a failing, corrupt and compromised media and fighting for lead of a country against those who avoid responsibility by not thinking for themselves and absolve their humanity by worshipping aristocracy, father-figures AND FALSE IDOLS, the sin most cautioned against.

www.thebattleforamerica.com http://www.wholeworldiswatching.blogspot.com /

goverment OWNS You

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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #55
56. Thanks Spacebuddy, but at the same time
many people can read, get something from it, but do not post because they see someone else has done so, or whatever.... We shouldn't necessarily judge importance (or even readership) by the number of posted replies. But since it is natural for all of us to do so, and because it changes order of posts, kicks are still welcome! : )

I mean, for example cookbooks and sex will always be "popular" because eating is something everyone has in common, and sex is something most adults have in common.... Does that mean fast food and seamy or steamy sex is more important than quantum physics? OK, bad examples. Maybe you can think of a better one? ; )

Maybe we should measure posts more by not just the number of people affected, but by the intensity of endorsement, like a super-double-kick giving an automatic second kick 15 minutes later.... (In addition to nomination for greatest) Some of the chats that can post high numbers may not have much lasting impact....
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #56
69. Some of the gossipy threads get a ton of posts but they're gone in a day
or two. This one has been around a long time.
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kster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #55
60. I have
been thinking the same thing.But I have been watching and reading Land Shark's thread's and also rigel 99. They both seem to be on to something that I like. If I posted everytime I came to their threads to read the new posts, you'd get tired of hearing from me.
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #55
66. hey, when they post something, I'll forward it to every CA legislator
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 09:55 PM
Response to Original message
57. I'll bet $100
Knowing that if you win the money will go to further the same goal elsewhere in this country. No need to pay me anything if you lose, however. Thank you so much for doing this.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-14-05 10:03 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. I have a question about this
It appears that most of the votes stolen in Ohio were from punch card systems (Triad). That's not a DRE, right, because theoretically the vote was verifiable, by means of the punch cards? Yet, the vote was never verified, because of the manipulations of the state government, in particular Blackwell. So how do we prevent things like that happening, even after we've gotten rid of the DREs?
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #58
62. DREs increase the number of problems a lot
but you're right even after you get rid of DREs there are still background problems and beyond that no system of any reasonable price is perfect or problem-free.

I'm not anywhere near as familiar with punch cards, but as with all balloting systems breakdowns in chain of custody and many other issues can raise questions. No partisans or single individuals should have power over elections. Evenly split election boards at 2-2 means the tiebreaking mechanism (Blackwell in Ohio) decides every important question. But I'm not going to pretend I'm giving you a full answer on punch cards, I'd have to rely on someone else to tlak about Ohio.
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Time for change Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #62
71. It really worries me
The 2004 Presidential election probably could have been stolen without a single DRE. So that makes me think: Were the DREs mainly a red herring, to get us to take our eye off the other means that they were using to steal the election? And if so, even if we completely get rid of DREs by 2008, will we end up with another stolen election?

And if that is the case, maybe we should be focusing on some more general type of election reform?
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mgr Donating Member (616 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
65. One countervailing argument to anticipate
As government employee, I am not fond of outsourcing any government functions, but the challenge here will be the issue of budgets.

The beauty of HAVA is that it provided funding to upgrade voting machines, that money once spent may not be provided to eliminate the liability with the DREs, or compilers with secret source codes. This is probably the same argument voting rights issues arise with undercounts due to poor voting machines.

Mike
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bush_is_wacko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 05:38 PM
Response to Original message
72. I'm not the betting type and I wouldn't bet against that anyway.
Edited on Tue Feb-15-05 05:39 PM by bush_is_wacko
It might be a good idea to line up some lawyers across the country willing to take on a case like this. Lawyers talk among themselves and they usually know other "pro bono" lawyers or ones willing to work for democracy as the case may be. This should be easy as pie once the ball is rolling. I can't "donate" to your cause but I would love to be on your email list. This sounds very interesting.
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trudyco Donating Member (975 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 05:42 PM
Response to Original message
73. How soon before the filing will be available for us to see?
I have a lawyer family member interested. He's in eastern Washington.

trudyco
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rigel99 Donating Member (621 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
74. GA is in, launching lawsuits.. How about FL, CA, NM, everyone, let's all


launch some lawsuits.. end of Feb. / early march.

Let's go. it's time to get the folks who outsourced and privatized our democracy to be accountable..
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Land Shark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-15-05 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #74
75. Time to "launch your own land shark" in your own state
if you've been thinking about this already. However, this term launching a land-shark is, at best, an inside DU joke definition for filing a lawsuit.

(Though the term "land shark" for a lawyer is in use generally and was used in 1866 by Mark Twain in a published letter called "Whaling Trade" in which he wrote 'there's more land-sharks (lawyers) in 'Frisco than there are fiddlers in hell....")

Fiddlers seem to be better understood these days, probably in part because land-sharks are still launching in 'Frisco and many other parts yonder, while fiddling on the roof has become tame and quaint.
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