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ccarter84 Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 02:54 AM
Original message
gonna float fraud idea to my college dems....
I am setting up a meeting with the secretary of our campus's college dems (we were 300 strong...dunno bout now) who sounded interested in the fraud topic on the phone, and for the life of me I can only come up with a rough outline of the fraud cuz i've been reading about it and studying for 2 months...but I can't organize things in a manner that I think would speak to such a group.

what I have so far:
I have grouped things in categories such as
pre-election fraud
--fake fliers, partisan registration drives destroy dem registrants, proven GOTV jamming by former regional Bush campaign manager.

during election fraud/suppression
-lack of sufficient voting machines ==long lines== seem to strangely coincide with democratic precincts
-threats of car towing /ticketing for ppl who had ot wait in line to vote for multiple hours
-combined precincts lead to confusion...etc etc.
-common errors which tend to have a kerry vote mysteriously go for bush in front of the persons eyes

hackability (word madeup?) of the vote
computers left networked, easily hacked, unpatched windows OS
I've studied the videos on the Diebold GEMS software, got some clips off bit torrent for that, and the fact that diebold for example uses DES encryption which was cracked in 1997

and Exit polls
where to begin with these things...well they are used by germany to declare winner, since all ballots are paper, and it takes them a week to count. Other countries have used them to accurately determine whether fraud has taken place by how far they match or don't. UKRAINE *cough cough* sorry frog in my throat...just don't mention exit polls to venezuela apparently they had a similar problem to us...but I digress
mainly i'll just bring in some key talking points from Freeman's exit polling article which covers some of that mentioned above and much more.

so I need more suggestions, and i'll keep you guys updated
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
1. They also changed the location
Edited on Tue Jan-11-05 03:03 AM by shraby
of the some of the precinct polling places at the last minute in Ohio.

Machines counted backward.
Over 3000 votes added to Bush's total in one precinct.
Lockdown to count the votes in Warren county.

edited to add more monkey business.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:01 AM
Response to Original message
2. Don't forget Blackwell.
The voter registration paper "weight". Blackwells recent $ raising letter.

Plus, check Conyers report.
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ccarter84 Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. yea printing conyers report tom. to read through during class
I'm gonna go research more on the paper weight issue, cuz I was unclear...I know he was trying to reject them b/c they were different weight...but who/was he the one in charge of the original printing anyways?

and fundraising letter is good...just remember we are college students and were nursed on a steady diet of 30 second sound bytes and ADD abounds...don't know where i'm going with that, but thanks Wilms, good points I'll integrate them in
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. The registration forms were printed in a newspaper...
a get out the vote kinda thing.

So Blackwell issues an order to reject reggies on less than xx weight paper. Next, judge tells him no. Conyers wants to know what Blackwell did to correct thereafter.
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ccarter84 Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 03:34 AM
Response to Original message
5. 3 questions....
talks about blackwell trying to shield himself from the courts
is there an update to this?

2. for some solid statistical stuff, has anyone found sites w/data as convincing as the richard hayes phillips stuff?

3. I want to include more than ohio...but of course it is the main focus of attention at the moment, I have bits on NC, NM, and a few others loosely, but i moved back to the dorm a few days ago and am just trying to play catchup now that I have internet again

and just to confirm does n/t mean "no thread"?

random thoughts:
whats the deal with spano in NY election not settled yet I guess?
in a few concise sentences can anyone answer why we didn't find what we expected to find in NH...proof of fraud?
ok, gonna stop posting and sleep, let other people post now or let it fall off the kick radar
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 04:40 AM
Response to Original message
6. Go to Conyers website
There is a full list of links to his committee actions there, including the Clint Curtis testimony, etc.
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Stevepol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 05:30 AM
Response to Original message
7. If it were me, I'd focus on the DREs and start w/ GA 02, the biggest fraud
maybe in human history, if you except the 04 presidential election. It was the first time the vote had been counted solely by touchscreen, Diebold in this case, w/o any possibility of audit or recount. The exit polls are no longer available because they evidently were so out of line with the supposed actual results (you can find interviews with the exit pollsters after the election by googling), but the pre-election polling had the incumbent gov, Roy Barnes, up 11% and Max Cleland up 5% four days before the election. I'm almost certain Barnes won every poll conducted before the election and I think the same can be said of Cleland. They lost nevertheless, the incumbent gov lost by 5% points, a swing of 16% points and Cleland lost by 8%, a 13% point swing. The odds for this would be God knows what if the margin of error were 5%, which sounds about right for a state the size of GA. The poll used 800 people as the sample and the final number of voters was around 2,030,000, something in that range.

Then, I would mention the ex-felons working for Diebold at the time, esp Jeff Dean, who probably helped write the software for the machines. He was just free from doing a 5-year stint in the slammer after a conviction for embezzlement in which he falsified computer information in a very sophisticated way over a 2 1/2 yr period. Five ex-felons worked for GES, the election software company Diebold acquired in jan 02, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Actually, you can't go wrong with this. Just point these Dems in the right direction and invite them to google for themselves and keep their wits about them.
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myschkin Donating Member (488 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 06:12 AM
Response to Original message
8. give them also

Baimans Paper

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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
9. Show the Votergate video. Shows the 90 second vote switching hack job .
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euler Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
10. Forget the exit polls. DU seems to be the last place...
...on earth where the fact that this US exit poll cannot used to verify the election is not well known. Unlike exit polls in Europe (most of them anyway) this US exit poll was not designed to verify the election. It was designed to provide THE ENTITY THAT PAID FOR IT (MSM) with demographic information. Exit polls that focus on demographics can't be used reliably to verify the election.

I've posted many links to experts, but all of the links I post have been rejected, not on the merits, but based on the notion that the web site I link to is a moderate or conservative site or the author of the statement is a moderate or conservative. Well, finally, liberals are getting on board:

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ccarter84 Donating Member (412 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. good point, but maybe you missed this link /
These were the 'leaked' exit polls at three distinct times on nov. 02/03
they came out like a week and a half ago, and assuming they are legitimate (very well done con job if they arent...but I wouldn't put it past people)

I agree freeman isn't an expert in exit polling, yet I wonder if anyone has been able to verify whether or not this was based on legitimate data...because if so... then there is no way these exit polls were dead on where there was a paper trail and so incredibly off where there was none.

I will read this full article more thoroughly later to atleast see if I should remove some of the weaker points in my claims, thanks Euler I had not seen this
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #11
15. hey ccarter84
suggestion--u could post the alternet story as a separate thread and see if anyone can effectively argue any parts of it. I'd be interested in that conversation not knowledgeable enough on thses issues myself.

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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 10:55 AM
Response to Original message
12. visuals can be powerful
There is video footage at

It's titled "Ohio Voting Problems, 2004"

The footage includes purging of the voter rolls, improper use of provisional ballots, and intimidation by Republican challengers.
The site also lists the contact info for the producers of the video.

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Zan_of_Texas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Map of Ohio voting problems.
I had this turned into a slide, but it actually didn't come out well for whatever reason. Still, it's an excellent resource.

Ohio map of problems

map of 2004 election anomalies - US

US map showing prevalence of over 34,000 election incidents reported to EIRS

Franklin County Elections Director - pleased with the election!

(Columbus, Ohio)

Also, you can do a short list of

1. Collin County, Texas: -- oops. Home Sweet Home. The national headquarters of Diebold's election division is in Collin County - McKinney, Texas is the town. Guess where they had a, um, glitch in November 2004? Right there. After a week of trying to deal with it, they had to send the item to CANADA to get the votes read.

2. Two counties in Florida, at least one county in NC:
-- oops, counting backwards. One lost 70,000 votes One lost 22,000 votes. (These were recovered.)

3. In southern Perry County, Ohio -- oops, two precincts reported turnouts of 124.4 and 124.0 percent of the registered voters. These impossible turnouts were officially certified as part of the final recount by Blackwell.

4. Youngstown, Ohio -- oops. At least one precinct recorded a NEGATIVE 25 MILLION VOTES.
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BQueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-11-05 11:29 AM
Response to Original message
14. Merged polling places in Ohio
Every county I've looked at had fewer precincts in 2004 than in 2000. Further, a number of counties had more precincts vote at one location than they had before (mine had merged 3 precincts to 2, and had those 2 vote at the same location that already housed 6 precincts) This created lines, inadequate parking problems, confusion, dangerous crossing to additional parking (heavy traffic, no crosswalk or cop -- at least not to help cross, they *were* there to tell us to "move along", tho) I kept taking my Kerry button off to escort seniors across the street. They managed to get all the lines inside, but it was chaos. When I went in for lists at 11am, the workers had FINALLY hit upon some way to identify the end of each precinct's line (which depended on the last person holding a hastily-scrawled note) ---- What sense does it make to decrease the numbers of precincts AND polling places while simultaneously predicting record turnout?

These and other "official acts" well in advance of election day need to be fleshed out. There's a section of the ORC that requires the BOE's to notify the SOS when they change precincts, I believe (new legislation), so there should be records available for public rec requests.

The other big item is the purging of *inactive* voters in August. That timing alone is interesting. Strangely enough, Ohio's Constitution was actually amended in the 70s to provide for these purges, and I do remember hearing about it, but I really don't know if it's ever been strictly enforced. The timing of the purge is such that careful people who had heard about registration delays due to volume would already have called the BOE to determine that their registration was valid by August (you know, we suspicious liberals). There was a great story in the Toledo Blade on this part, and I'm certain the stories are legion.

Also, you may want to cross-reference the purge timing with when all the reports came out with how "swamped" all the BOE's were (i.e., they were, but floated to prompt people to check before planned purge?)

One small county I looked at counted only EIGHT provisionals out of nearly 140. Many were listed as "not registered" with no other notation, and I imagine they were people purged in August.
Also, I ran across at least one newspaper article giving out incorrect information (provisionals would count even if in wrong precinct). Didn't see anything correcting that -- (searched for single word "election" in many local news archives)

As to the paper weight issue, it apparently is from some rule adopted by the SOS that he never published anywhere that I could find -- not in the ORC or the Ohio Administrative Code. That's what made some think it was a printer's spec. rather than a substantive rule, which would explain him not providing it for context. That's how most BOE's understood it, as being related to days of file drawers, where you want stiff cards if the records are going to be kept for a substantial period of time, and handled frequently, if only to add additional cards.

About Exit Polls, I know nothing.....BUT, I do seem to recall reading long, long ago when I first began reading about the voting machine industry, that there were three major players (at that time), and that one was being investigated/prosecuted? for attempting to subvert the election process in VENEZUELA, iirc. Probably shortly after 2000, when I would have started looking at that sort of thing.

Are you at a college in Ohio? Need an "outside agitator"?

oh, and n/t = "no text" similarly, nm = no message
I think there's a DU lingo lexicon somewhere, I should check it out, since there are still a few references I don't get after years here.
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