ALL democratic senators should oppose electoral vote!

[wiggs]

Here we are wondering which ONE senator will contest the election...hoping that ONE senator will stand up in 2004, where none did in 2000.

Our expectations should be set much higher for our democratic leaders in the "opposition" party. I say that EVERY SINGLE DEMOCRATIC SENATOR SHOULD BE STANDING IN OPPOSITION TO THIS ELECTION. I will be disappointed if a majority does not do so.

We believe this is a dangerous, dysfunctional, corrupt, power-hungry, immoral administration. This, alone, should be enough for many senators to voice outrage and oppose the vote. On top of that, it should be clear to anyone who looks that the election outcome is unclear, that vote integrity is not as it should be. It can be disputed.

What have our democratic leaders got to lose? Nothing! They are marginalized anyway!

What have they got to gain? At a minimum, being on the correct side of an issue for once. But potentially more: History. Justice. Correction of misdeeds. Restoring respect around the world. Strength at home. Real morality....etc.

For the next week, I plan to nurture the hope that Kerry has known all along that it will come down to Congress...that he not only has the senators to force a debate, but that he also has enough democrats and angry republicans to flip the election and restore sanity.

This is what should happen.

[Nothing Without Hope]

1. I am hoping that at least 1 Repub one will join in

As the Watergate scandal unfolded, there were Republicans of integrity who broke ranks with the Nixon cartel because they could not stomach what had been done. Without them, Nixon might not have been forced from office and the truth might not have been as exposed as it was.

I am hoping that some of the Republicans in the Senate actually have enough of the Moral Values their party so loudly espouses to stand for justice and the Consitution. If they do, it will take very great courage for a number of reasons.

[Name removed]

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[autorank]

5. hahaha---sure, right, um hum.

oops, forgot Welcome to DU!!! You might want to do some reading on voter suppression in OH and FL and also on the statistical absurdity (not to mention other suspicious factdors) of these electoral results. The very same type of polling and logic used by * to challenge the Ukranian election was used here by objective academics to challenge the American election. Read up before you say it didn't happen (the theft part) and if you think that there was not massive voter suppression, read up on that. There is simply no doubt on that point.

[seeking-the-truth]

45. "objective academics"

I agree that there was widespread voter suppression, machine tampering and fraud in Ohio and elsewhere, but what we need are truly objective reports. A bi-partisan(I know...I know...oxymoron) study is really our only hope. One of the posters mentioned studies by "objective academics". I would submit that there is no such thing as an objective academic. It has been many years since I attended college, but I do remember that virtually all of my professors were biased one way or the other. Anyone with in-depth knowledge of statistics also knows that numbers can be input to create whatever outcome one chooses.

I would challenge those here to use an old debate exercise. Take the opposite side of whatever your argument is and give an honest effort to prove that side. Amazingly enough, this is how I became a Democrat. I was challenged on several views to take the debate approach and after careful study, I changed my mind.

I am NOT suggesting that our assertions about fraud are wrong. I am merely pointing out that a truly non-biased report is what we need for more credibility. Unfortunately, EVERYONE seems to have an agenda....including academics.

[ginnyinWI]

10. then please explain to me

the difference between the exit polls and the tabulated election results?

[autorank]

19. Ginny, this is a fascinating inquiry. The USA challenged the

elections in the Ukraine, as did the Ukrainian party cheated, by pointing to highly unlikely discrepancies between electoral results there and exit polls. The "margin of error" was so off, it was inferred with real weight, that there had to be electoral fraud. This was our government making those arguments over there...and they were quire right. The same applies here. In every close state where Kerry led in the exit polling, Bush won outside the "margin of error" for the exit polls. People say you can prove anything with statistics. That is a total lie. Margin of error, probability, etc. are all commonly understood and accepted concepts in statistics.

Do a search for "TruthIsAll" in the Author field under "Search" for the last two months. He has his own compelling analysis and he has links to academics at Berkley, Princeton, etc. who have no real ax to grind. If this were a court of law, the statistical proof offered on something very wrong in the close states would be easily admitted. For example, DNA evidence is based on the same type of statistical analysis.

People don't want to recognize this but it's just the simple fact.

[SicTransit]

35. Read the analysis of exit polls and exit polling in general

by the Democratic professional pollster Mark Blumenthal:

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/12/so_if_exit_poll.html

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/12/so_why_were_the.html

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/12/have_the_exit.html

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/12/what_about_thos.html

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/12/exits_were_the_.html

and other articles on his blog.

[Name removed]

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[sepia_steel]

26. Jettison their social agenda??

Dependent on hollywood? gays? what about more 'moderate' democrats? I don't have abortions, I'm not gay, and Hollywood is generally a word with a bad connotation. But I still stand for people making their own GD decisions. What the hell is going on here???

This is simply nauseating to read and it is dubious.

[Brundle_Fly]

15. Listen up.

to deny fraud in this election is simply kidding yourself.

No paper records? "We couldnt do this!!?"

Doesnt take a trail of breadcrumbs to come to the conclusion that this was stolen, and it was stolen, very easily with little to no way to prove any of it. Or even disprove any of it. And even then, if you refuse to believe, electorates not recording whos vote goes where is just an unacceptable way to deliver "in good faith to the public" confidence that the election was fair.

If the election had been fair, and undeniably so, we wouldn't be doing all of this, and continually finding so much BS leading us to continue to move forward, secure in our facts, and faith.

So even if you don't believe in the fraud, believe that America deserves and demands that elections are reliable, recountable, traceable, and always instill faith in the democracy you and I hold dear.

The entanglement of corporations into government and media, is making this country a big old fashioned bought and paid for farce.

That is worth fighting for, people's rights are worth fighting for. If you don't believe that, you don't belong here.

(in DU that is, not america, I am not going freeper on you)

[Old and In the Way]

17. How could anyone have possibly beaten this giant?

I mean, look at George W. Bush's accomplishments in 4 short years.

(1) Vacationed 40% of the time prior to 9/11...ooooops, 3000 Americans died.

(2) Took a $500BB surplus and turned it into a $500BB deficit.

(3) Lost more jobs than any elected* President in History.

(4) Mission Accomplished in Iraq. Another Vietnam quagmire that's a "catastrophic success".

* He has an out here as he was selected by SCOTUS

How could any Democrat think they'd have a chance against a record like that? That's why we had only 9 candidates in the primaries.

Btw, how long are you here for?

[Name removed]

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[EC]

28. True enough re:: Kennedy /Nixon

but it has gotten totally out of hand now...the repression is getting more blatant and cruel...the machines are being pushed in every state, and our voting rights are being privatized by corporations that have interests in who wins. It's time to change this. Kerry was a fine candidate, and a fine, empathetic man. You are wrong. I was under the impression everything went fine in my city. Until I went through the help-line reports, at one college here in town (one that Bush spoke at) the Dean of Students arranged a shuttle bus for the students to take to the polls, no blacks were allowed on the bus. The other college here in town, the students from out of town were not allowed to vote, because they were not from here, but according to our voting rights laws, if they had lived here for the last 60 days, they are legal to vote here, they are residents then. In one of our major cities, they were not going to order more ballots, even though voter registration was up and the number of ballots on hand were even less than they had in 2000. One polling place had a Republican candidate show up with a few goons trying to get the poll watchers into a fight, shoving them and taunting them...the watches resisted and the Republican's climbed back into their Lexus and left. These are just a few of the cases I've already transcribed to send in from the call-line transcripts. So, you better change that line of thinking, because if this isn't fixed it'll be much worse next time and you may be the one refused your rights...

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[shraby]

54. Nixon didn't challenge because

he had some stealing of his own to hide.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[Old and In the Way]

21. Sincerely...bullshit.

Implement voter verified paper trails and I'll take my chances with the Democratic platform. You can kiss the boyking's AWOL, insider-trading arse. I'll stand by the likes of John Kerry anyday of the week.

[Name removed]

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[sepia_steel]

27. HEAR HEAR, Old and in the Way!!!

Or is it 'Here, Here'. I'm with ya all the way. Who are these people?

[Old and In the Way]

46. Thanks!

Damn, I missed "Deleted" response. I just love these apologists who come on board to try and convince us that wrong is right, down is up, and Bush won the election.

[EC]

31. Who gives a shit who red-necks would vote for?

We wouldn't even associate with them, why would we want their votes? There was 40% of eligable voters who didn't vote, there is plenty there to work for without having to lower ourselves to the red-neck, fear-monkering, hateful, bigited, degenerate, loveless creeps. Let * and his ilk keep them, we don't want them...

[Name removed]

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[Patchuli]

4. I stand beside you in this hope

and have certainly nagged enough senators to do it!

We can only hope that the people who 'work for us' will WORK FOR US!
If not, they can expect really naggy emails from me all their years
of public service...x(

[buddysmellgood]

6. Here here. I agree. Why one senator? We need unity. We need to stand

together. Does anyone think a single republican will vote against accepting the vote of the electors. Of course not. Democrats better find some cajones on January 6 or it's a new game for me.

[CraZdem4life]

11. you mean cajones...n/t

[buddysmellgood]

20. No, I mean Cahones...small cream-filled pastries that explode in a

smothering cloud of goo when thrown at members of congess.

Okay, yes, I meant cajones.

[Old and In the Way]

7. What have they got to gain?

How about a constituency in 2006?

Seriously, we rolled in 2000 and 2002. If they perform, en masse, again.....they can expect the coalition that voted for Kerry to start splintering. I hate to threaten our Senators and Representitives, but if they can't stand up for us....why would they expect that we'll continue to stand by them? They roll this time at their own peril.

I totally agree....why should one person take the heat when all Democrats are the injured party in the stealing of yet another election. I want to see them start standing up as a united party and show Bush Republicans that it won't be "business as usual" in 2005.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[ginnyinWI]

8. I feel the same way but

there is only one reason that they should stand up, and that is because they have good reason to doubt the vote tally.
Doesn't matter what they think of Bush--it is a matter of opposing illegal elections and upholding the law. period. If Bush was legally elected, then according to the law, we should all shut up until the next election. But the issue of fraud is salient.

From the time Bush is sworn in for a second term, our eternal cry should be "National Election Standards!!" Without reform, we might as well not waste our time campaigning for candidates, unless they are Republicans. Sad but true.

[VTGold]

9. If they're frightened - that would be the smartest thing...

...'cept Zell - he can stay seated.

[bleever]

12. A tradition of excellence would call all senators to stand up for

following every election by the rules.

We don't say, gee, the other guy PROLLY won by a whole bunch, what's one little penalty flag?

We say, follow the rules, do your best (your very best), and win, baby.

So my question, indeed, is: who isn't up to a standard of Excellence?

[McCamy Taylor]

13. I wish! Remember how they walked out on the impeachment?

:dem:

[mia]

16. EVERY SINGLE DEMOCRATIC SENATOR SHOULD BE STANDING ...

and so should every Republican. Every single one of them knows what's going on. If they don't intend to stand up for our country, they may as well sit for the Pledge on Allegiance too, because they don't mean one word of it. Liberty and justice for all - what a sham!

[Helga Scow Stern]

18. That is what I keep seeing in my mind's eye....

a moment on 1/6 that makes me as proud and glad to be an American as that scene in F9/11 when no one stood up made me ashamed.

[zann725]

37. Me too! And every time I "see" it, I get goose bumps, tears in my eyes...

and visualize what it'll feel like to be jumping around the TV, 'yahoo-ing' to exactly that sight on CSPAN on Jan 6!

Keep hope alive!

[Peace Patriot]

47. Ojai Person, yes, yes, yes!

That's it! I want to feel proud again! --of Democrats, of all us, of America! I want that moment! I want it! I want it! All standing up! All saying no to this fascist coup!

Like all the Danes putting yellow triangles on their sleeves when the Nazis ordered Jews to wear them. Like the white students, and Catholic nuns, and protestant ministers who crossed the Selma bridge with Martin Luther King. Like the Venezuelans who surrounded the presidential palace and stopped the kidnapping of President Chavez. Like the Amish in "Witness" who run across the fields at the ringing of the bell to surround the bad guys with WITNESSES. Like all good people everywhere who have courageously stood against tyranny. STRENGTH IN NUMBERS!

A wish. A dream. But it really happened in real history, and it can happen again, here, now!

May all the Higher Powers to which all the people of the earth pray inspire them! May they sleep the sleep of the just on January 7!

[malatesta1137]

24. you have a better chance to hit the jackpot tonight

and tomorrow, and the day after.

[Peace Patriot]

49. malatesta1137, you must be thinking of the odds against Bush...

... having virtually all anomalous and impossible numbers, all exit poll discrepancies, all machine malfunctions, all electronic votes vs. paper votes, all top of the ticket vs. lower ticket weirdnesses, all "malfunctioning" touchscreens changing Kerry votes to Bush votes and not the other way around, all precincts shorted on the number of voting machines, all areas shorted on the number of precincts, all new rules for registration and voting promulgated by Republican Secretaries of State in Florida and Ohio, all voter purge lists, and all 57,000 vote suppression incidents and difficulties in voting reported to Congress, favoring Bush and hurting Kerry.

Those the odds you mean?

[malatesta1137]

53. sir/madam

we knew the fraud was going to happen MONTHS ANS MONTHS AGO, that is not the issue, your post is a waste of effort. The only question that matters is: WHAT THE FUCK IS JOHN KERRY DOING ABOUT IT?

[art3]

29. Whew

hi
whew. every dem senator needs to get behind conyers, and soon-though maybe not public. as we wait for conyers' report, which will be our Bible to show black supression and potential frauds committed I ponder-is a firestorm ready to soon breakloose--going from the bloggers to the world in a matter of days? I pray so.
art

[Chasing Dreams]

33. I agree 100%, and contrary to the MSM spin as sore losers, the contesting

Democrats will be seen as heroes by...yes...the Silent Majority.

Assuming Chimpy survives the challenge, Senate Democrats need to filibuster ALL legislation and appointments, including cabinet officials, until a Select Committee is formed to investigate the 2004 election.

To those who think that actions like these are foolish and won't get the Democrats anywhere, I'll remind you that attempts to win over voters by moving to the center CAN'T WORK IF VOTES ARE COUNTED BY MACHINES MANUFACTURED BY REPUBLICAN-HEADED CORPORATIONS--WITHOUT A PAPER TRAIL.

Remember Kerry's Ostrich commercial? The Ostrich is now a Democrat who wants to "move on"....

[wiggs]

41. I can't believe the timidity...

I like the filibuster idea. I like the idea that the democratic leadership would unify and create some power base, where they have none now.

The BA has spent the last 4 years figuring out how to eviscerate congress, especially the democratic side of the aisle. They have broken tradition, played dirty, lied, stonewalled, gagged whistleblowers, grabbed power, increased secrecy, exluded dissent, etc. And what do our democratic leaders do? They appear to be trying not to rock the boat...they are disappearing from the discussion....they are playing by the rules....they are gone and we are alone (with a few exceptions).

Before January 6, I hope they take a look at the last 4 years and put a stop to the abuse.

[TheUnspeakable]

40. They Have to Stand Together ! !

If these Dem senators are talking to each other, my hope would be
that they decide to stand together and fight for our Democracy.
What could possibly be the the downside if a large group of them
do it? They can't all get smeared in the MSM at the same time, they can't all be suicided at the same time, their planes can't all crash
on the same day. All they would get would be eternal devotion and praise from their constituants. I wrote to my Sen. (Durbin, IL) last
night and pretty much told him that-we'll see!!!

[Junkdrawer]

42. I agree. Here's how I think it plays...

If only a few in the House and Senate stand up, they will be savaged by the Republicans and the press.

If it's a united front, and if the facts are then presented in a cogent fashion, we have an issue and a chance at regaining our democracy.

A "Profiles in Courage" moment.

[wiggs]

43. I want....

I want so many democratic senators to stand up that it will make the ones who DON'T stand up feel embarrassed and on the spot. For the ones who remain sitting, it will be THEIR seats that become contested next election. It will be THEIR constituents that ask them why they didn't act. Michael Moore will ask THEM on camera what their lame reasons are for supporting a tainted election.

[bardgal]

44. I agree, but it's not going to happen - they are a bunch of cowards,

and I'm sick to death of getting my hopes up that a single one of them as any integrity whatsoever.

Obama would gain so much momentum if he had the courage to do this, but he, like everyone else, is probably listening to their handlers telling them, "Standing with Conyers will be the end of your career." When in reality, I think it would be just the opposite.

Whom ever has the cajones to stand will gain more respect than anyone can ever imagine. But I don't see a single one doing it. They're all lazy cowards.

The Ukraine has more integrity than this forsaken place.

[Peace Patriot]

51. The problem is that we're asking the leadership to lead...

...and they haven't been leading for some time now. WE had to strong arm them into putting up a decent candidate in 2004. They had given up a year before the election. And we had to compromise all over the place on that matter alone, because THEY were too chicken to put up an honest to God antiwar candidate. Then WE had to get THEIR do-the-war-more-efficiently candidate elected for them--which we damn well did. Meanwhile, THEY allowed BushCons to gain control over our voting system with SECRET electronic source code running the central vote tabulators, and paperless voting, and failed even to warn us what could come down.

And now THEY--these same political leaders and "handlers"-- are the ones who get to whisper in the Senators' ears about "political suicide"???

We are expecting a lot of Democratic Senators, few of whom have shown any understanding of this fascist coup, let alone the will to fight it.

But I am yet hopeful. Because I do agree that they all know what's going on, they know the election was stolen AGAIN (and if they didn't know it on Election Day, they know it now), and what that means is this: The American people saw through all the BushCon B.S., despite 24/7 BushCon media propaganda, and voted the bastards out.

Which means the American people are paying attention. And it's not their fault that they were given false information on Election Night (the altering of the Exit Polls to make it look like a Bush won both the Exit Polls and the "official results."). They were outright lied to about the Exit Polls--in the most despicable act of journalism I've ever seen (and we've seen some doozies)--and it will take time for them to learn the truth.

Though they ULTIMATELY saw through the B.S. on the Iraq war, for instance, it took a year, given the relentless propaganda that they are subjected to.

It may take that long with the Election Fraud, but the American people WILL catch up with this news, and there will be hell to pay when they do.

The Democratic Senators also know that Bush's approval rating is at an all-time low of 48% to 49%--the lowest of any second term president since WWII, and that Americans' disapproval of the Iraq war is pushing 60%. These numbers--like ALL the numbers--don't add up. What victory? What "mandate"?

There is much to be gained, and nothing to lose, from challenging this fraudulent election. They might even become known for their LEADERSHIP.

"The Ukraine has more integrity than this forsaken place."--bardgal

Well, it seems to be true of the Democratic Party leadership (we'll see on Jan. 6), but it is NOT true of the voters. Ukraine voters got to see the pure Exit Poll data, to compare to the phony "official results." They could see immediately that something was very wrong. Americans were denied that information, and, further, are the particular target of overwhelming BushCon propaganda. Give them time. They WILL get this eventually. Most of them feel it in their gut anyway--something very wrong with that election. So most will be eager to get the facts.

Keep in mind that, although 125 House and Senate Democrats voted against the Iraq war (a fact I will never forget, because on Vietnam the total opposition was 1), the rest voted FOR it. So, informing the public of the lying justifications for invading Iraq was very difficult. With all the BushCons, all their lapdog media, and more than half of the Democratic leadership pro-war--a virtual Iron Curtain of disinformation--the truth about Iraq had to spread by word of mouth, and on the internet. There was almost nothing else.

The long and short of it is, if the Democratic leadership stands up on the fraudulent election, we'll see a much quicker turnaround in this country, back to its strong progressive tendency. If they don't, it's the underground route again, and maybe, by that means, we can rally Americans to reclaim their right to vote.

And when and if we do restore our right to vote, I think it's possible the country will vote out the entire government, Democrats and Republicans alike, clean house, put some people in jail, provide public financing for campaigns, and become a democracy again.

Democrats cannot afford to stand down on the matter of our right to vote. We had quite enough of a stand down already on the Iraq war, not to mention on 9/11.

And they had better ALL stand up. And what a beautiful thing it will be if they do!

[wiggs]

52. Nice tirade. Yep, the leadership is part of the problem.

This is a huge chance for them, maybe the last strong chance for the next two years, for them to make a statement and shine some light on this supposed mandate.

[Cheswick2.0]

48. so should all republican senators...but they won't either

[Not a Sheep]

50. Then you should get ready to be disppointed.....

"I say that EVERY SINGLE DEMOCRATIC SENATOR SHOULD BE STANDING IN OPPOSITION TO THIS ELECTION. I will be disappointed if a majority does not do so."


Get ready to be disppointed. There's no way a majority will stand.

[berniew1]

55. Documentation of widespread vote machine fraud & suppression in 3 states

Widespread vote machine fraud has been documented in Florida in the big touchscreen counties, as well as voter suppression of minorities. Similar to the widespread voter suppression and fraud that has been documented in Ohio and New Mexico.
The problems appear large enough to swing all 3 states, as implied by the exit poll data- for which a new version is circulating today with strong evidence Kerry won the election.
Exit poll data on voting groups.

Documentation for Ohio is at: http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19

and http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm

Documentation of the widespread Florida vote machine fraud is at: http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html


Newly released Media Exit Poll:

1) 59% of the 17% who did NOT vote in 2000 but who did in 2004 voted for Kerry. Just 39% for Bush.

2) 65% of those who did NOT vote for Bush or Gore in 2000 voted for Kerry. Just 13% for Bush and 16% for Nader.

3) 91% of those who voted for Gore, voted for Kerry.

4) 90% of those who voted for Bush in 2000, voted for Bush in 2004.

5) 20% (approx) of all voters are new voters. Of these voters according to the exit polls 65% voted Kerry and 35% voted Bush

6)The exit poll from the South shows Kerry won 64% of the Hispanic Vote.


7) Kerry's margin of victory was INCREASING, not decreasing as the day grew later


Some common myths regarding need tor adjustment dispelled by the Newly Released poll data:

1. The earlier exit poll numbers oversampled women.

Wrong. The 7:30 p.m. exit poll numbers consisted of 54% women and 46% men. The final exit poll numbers included the exact same percentages.

2. The earlier exit poll numbers oversampled minorities.

Wrong. The 7:30 p.m. exit poll numbers consisted of 11% blacks and 9% hispanics. The final exit poll numbers included 11% blacks and 8% hispanics.

3. The earlier exit poll numbers oversampled democrats (i.e., republicans voted later in the day).

Wrong. The 7:30 p.m. exit poll numbers consisted of 38% democrats, the final exit poll numbers consisted of 37%.

4. The earlier exit poll numbers undersampled rural voters.

Wrong. The 7:30 p.m. exit poll numbers consisted of 16% rural voters, same as the final exit poll numbers.