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Why are we sparing John Kerry? He needs to step up to the plate

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:46 PM
Original message
Why are we sparing John Kerry? He needs to step up to the plate
We supported John Kerry. We walked and called and argued for him. Where is he in a crisis?

He promised to count every vote. Whoops.

He wants to run in 2008?

If our votes aren't counted, I don't get where the exertion lies. John Kerry will be able to just lay back because the suporrt won't be there.

Email John Kerry and let him know, unless our votes are counted, he'll be able to count votes for himself on hands and toes:

http://kerry.senate.gov/text/contact/email.html
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elizm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:51 PM
Response to Original message
1. I'm with you...
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. It just hit me tonight that we're making ourselves into pretzels.
And like John Kerry, we all have lives to protect, families, concerns.

But we're been out here.

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Dark Secret Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #1
73. Ditto...Kerry is a Wimp who did not keep his promise n/t
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wildflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. Have you seen this?
Cobb, Badnarik AND Kerry-Edwards file expanded suit

The lawyers for Green presidential candidate David Cobb and Libertarian presidential candidate Michael Badnarik, along with Kerry-Edwards 2004 have added election tampering to a civil suit filed against the state of Ohio over problems with the state's recount

...

http://rawstory.com/exclusives/kerry_ohio_suit_1215.php

From the thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x163898
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. wildflower, I have. But, notice it's just legal teams, not the man
himnself. I don't know what he's saving himself for. This is his moment, as well as the moment where he keeps his part of the deal.

Can you imagine how much easier all this vote fraud work would have been to get into the press had the Senator been more assertive?

I guess I don't elect personalities. I try to elect leaders who know that real people cast votes.
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wildflower Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #6
10. I think this is his way of keeping his part of the deal.
It follows his M.O. of fighting smart rather than just hard.

Regarding the press, I just don't know. I can see the logic that having the press all over him would have made this work impossible.

I don't know him personally, as most of us don't, which is why I think we can't assume we know what he's up to. I'm trying to help keep hope alive until we know one way or the other.

So that's why tonight I've been trying to post this article where I can in case people haven't seen it - just wanted to make sure. :hi:

-wildflower
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:40 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'm trying to reserve judgement,
because I just don't think we have all the pieces of the puzzle yet.

It's hard to wait, though. We don't know whether he is working furiously behind the scenes, or just watching casually. But just judging by how hard he campaigned, it's more likely the former than the latter.
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Amaryllis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #10
59. Check this out if you have doubts about Kerry
He fights smart. He was kind of in a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation with this election. He will move if and when he deems it wise, but he is not one to quit or buckle under pressure. This whole situation has been very tricky. Look what happened to Gore when he didn't concede...if he did or if he didn't, there are problems either way. Kerry has had to weigh the options and judge the most prudent course of action. I still believe he's got our back if he possibly can.

Below is just one paragraph from the article "Follow the Money: How John Kerry Busted the Terrorist's Favorite Bank." Note particularly "...observers saw a senator with tremendous fortitude, and a willingness to put the public good ahead of his own career"

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0409.sir...

"But legislation is only one facet of a senator's record. As the BCCI investigation shows, Kerry developed a very different record of accomplishment--one often as vital, if not more so, than passage of bills. Kerry's probe didn't create any popular new governmental programs, reform the tax code, or eliminate bureaucratic waste and fraud. Instead, he shrewdly used the Senate's oversight powers to address the threat of terrorism well before it was in vogue, and dismantled a key terrorist weapon. In the process, observers saw a senator with tremendous fortitude, and a willingness to put the public good ahead of his own career. Those qualities might be hard to communicate to voters via one-line sound bites, but they would surely aid Kerry as president in his attempts to battle the threat of terrorism. "

Also see http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/093004A.shtml
Introducing John Kerry By William Rivers Pitt

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The Judged Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
54. Deleted by "The Judged"
Edited on Thu Dec-16-04 02:24 AM by The Judged
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
4. I'm sure he will when it makes sense too. In the meantime we've got
Conyers and others doing the job.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Why is "when" different for him than for us, jamboi? I read your
posts, and mostly agree with them.

But, here, I guess I don't. What do you call an army without a head?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Notice, I'm not turning on the man. We've all been through a ton
just dealing with the spinmeisters. It's taken a toll.

John Kerry needs to keep his promises, just like I do to my babysitter. And he needs to be seen as a man of his word.

The least we can expect from a president.

(Okay, I'll take my bad attitude off the keyboard for now. But, but )
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #4
30. Well...he sent his brother Cam out on CNN w/Woodruff yesterday....but
Cam said...move along..focus on the future...Kerry will be working on issues....not sorry about anything...there are always mistakes made in campaigns but focus on the future... This was after a report on the Washinton State and Ohio re-votes. Not a word was mentioned to Cam or by Cam about the revote. :shrug:
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clydefrand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. I just sent him an email asking him to help us out as we did him.
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Broken Acorn Donating Member (590 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
8. The time is NOW: Only 21 days until Inauguration (oh shit) n/t
Kerry, if you're reading this, YOU ARE RUNNING OUT OF TIME. We need your leadership NOW!
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Hamoth Donating Member (292 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:34 PM
Response to Original message
11. Agreed. Silence equates support of white supremacy.
Folks don't get it. Nuff said.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. Silence more often equals agreement. I can't be silent
Edited on Wed Dec-15-04 09:47 PM by sfexpat2000
So much for staying off the keyboard. (Sorry.)

From election night, I knew something was terribly wrong. I worked not here in Blue San Francisco but mostly via phones and the net in the swing states. There's no way we lost this election. I'm 49 and have never seen such cohesion in the democratic wing of the Democratic party and their gracious allies among Indies and Greens.

And I've never seen our leadership do such a shameful vanishing act.

As if our time meant nothing. As if the targeted black and student voters meant nothing. As if handing over our most precious right, to elect our representation, meant nothing.

This isn't Kerry's fight, it's obviously ours. But he did make some promises which I'm sure we all remember. And which he may need to be remind of just about now. We've worked to frame this fight. Ask John Kerry to fullfill his promise:

Email him: http://kerry.senate.gov/text/contact/email.html

edited for dyslexic spelling and thinking
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Pepper32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
13. More emailing... OH Goodie...
Edited on Wed Dec-15-04 09:43 PM by Pepper32
Yeah, that will work! How much longer do we have to beg??? WTF, is this accomplishing? NOTHING

We have emailed Kerry since he conceded. He knows how we feel about this... John Kerry is not deaf, dumb or blind. Why Kerry and the DNC choose to remain silence? I don't know, only time will tell. We don't have time, unless of course you are willing to settle for just possibly impeaching *

The time is NOW. The Ukraine's showed us how it's done. The real question here IS... Why are we so scared to truly stand up and fight for democracy? Because that's what it's going to take. It's the 11th hour and Bush reselection is moving right along. :argh:

On edit: fixed my smilie
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. This isn't about begging, lol. It's about accountability.
And you may be right. Kerry may be windsurfing somewhere.

But we deserve an answer because as you rightfully say, the time is NOW.

Not letting go of any other thread, just yanking on this loose one. So, please, spare me the sarcasm. We've stuff to get done. Save it, we'll need it soon enough.
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Pepper32 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #15
23. And nagging John Kerry for the millionth time is getting something done ?
I didn't say John Kerry was windsurfing somewhere. I don't know what he's doing. I'm reserving judgment on the way he handled this until ALL the facts are known. Time will tell.

Look, my goal is this, I want John Kerry to be inaugurated NOT Bush. And the only way that will happen is by demanding they pay attention to us, by MASSIVE PROTESTING.

Sorry I'm not going along with the "flow" but the TRUTH needs to be said...

Keep dreaming that another email will change outcome if you want. I am not stopping anyone. To each it's own. Just don't be surprised to see Bush still in office, despite all of your massive emailing. :)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #23
50. Applying pressure on Kerry is not equal to abandoning other
measures.

You know, we're all tipping into black or white thinking. We might want to take a look at that.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
17. Exactly -- why do you or I have to guess?
We pulled out all the stops for this campaign.

Any leader, teacher, CEO, politician, knows feedback is crucial.

Why are we guessing at this moement, when so much is at stake?

Just asking <g>.
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shraby Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #17
18. His lawyers don't join in a suit in the courts
without his okay. Got it? They can't just file on their own.
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Smoochie Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
19. A Scottish email for Kerry and Edwards ...
I've been following the discussions, the KO stories, the BBV stories, the AFD stories, and sent 'encouraging' emails to a number of key people including many in the media both in the UK and the USA. It's definitely time for the Democratic leaders to stand up and be counted, so tonight (it's *late* here right now!) I emailed Kerry & Edwards as follows:

"Dear Senators Kerry and Edwards,
As a resident of Scotland, UK, I have been following closely the rising tide of evidence pointing to the theft of the Presidential Election last month.

There is mounting evidence being revealed at www.democraticunderground.com and elsewhere on the web showing that the Republicans are routinely breaking the law in trying to prevent a full and thorough hand recount of Ohio.

Unless you step off the fence, and solidly throw your weight behind Cobb, Conyers and Cliff Arnebeck's determined stand to try to regain some semblance of democracy, this travesty of an election will be lost without hope, and with it, the rest of the world loses any respect it may have for the USA as a democratic country.

This is *such* an important moment in history!!! Without the full, outspoken, brave, and honest support of the 2 key Democratic candidates, the mainstream media will continue to remain quiet about the recount and the appalling offenses against freedom and liberty will continue for the next 4 years, and the following 4 years, and so on, since the election process will be a sham as the vote riggers continue to disenfranchise the population.

I urge you to consider whether you could bear to sit back and watch this happen? There is a huge groundswell of public support - not just from Democrats - but from every decent person who believes that each vote is worthy of being counted.

If you take a stand now, and take a visible role in this recount, you will galvanise support not only across the USA, but across the world, and shortly find yourself seated in the White House, ready to undo some of the many wrongs that have been done in the last 4 years.
What a gift that would be to start the New Year!!

I sincerely hope that you choose to do the right thing - please remember 'it is necessary only for the good man to do nothing for evil to triumph'."


Don't give up hope, and keep on spreading the word for the sake of us all!

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. Thank you. Where we would be without cooler heads?
And am hoping you are spreading the word, "The Americans haven't gone stark raving mad! They're are just stark raving flummuxed!"

lol

But, we'll be back. Thanks, B.
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Smoochie Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. You're welcome! some of my best friends are Americans,
and they're as appalled as we Europeans at what's happening to the Land of the Free. Once the tide of emails and outraged indignation reaches the Tipping Point perhaps the Democrats will lead the nation into a final showdown, and win the day? Keep a clear vision and it will happen ....
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Some of your best friends are Americans? LOL! Finally,
Edited on Wed Dec-15-04 10:47 PM by sfexpat2000
honesty.

Please spread the word, because the foreign press can apply pressure, that there is widespread disagreement here. And, it looks like the election was stolen again but this time, we're going to fight to the finish.

Many thanks,
B.

(all my posts edited for dsylexic spelling and brian function)
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Smoochie Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Will do my best ... The Guardian and The Gaudie - local Uni paper -
are the only UK papers so far that seem to have responded to emails!But perhaps the NYT and WaPo articles will change that? I wake up each morning longing to hear it being discussed on BBC Radio 4's Today Programme. John Humphreys is our top interviewer - boy would it be great to hear him go head to head with Blackwell on Ohio!
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #33
70. Hi Smoochie!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Smoochie Donating Member (65 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #70
80. Thanks NewYawker!
I've been here for a while, just watching and learning!:hi:
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burn the bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
20. I've lost most of my respect for him
he lets these other people step up to his plate and have to do the dirty work of taking on these bastards. He sends a few shit ass attorneys who don't know their ass from an a frame. I think they did more harm than good.
Kerry is letting Conyers and Cobb fight this battle for him and he thinks I would vote for him again? He's going to have to do something pretty damned spectacular for that.
I don't think he has anything spectacular planned either. He is trying to passify us by acting like he's involved but not really getting involved. He's pandering. I'll take him over the Shrub but then again I would take Snoop and Manson over the shrub.
Things could have been totally different if he had just stepped up immediately. We would have had an actual recount. Now it's almost 5 weeks later and most of the evidence is surely gone by now. He blew it.
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Mirwib Donating Member (95 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
25. Kerry is strategically placing himself to run again in 2008
To me, he has betrayed his supporters. He should either come out strongly or announce he is not going to do anything. Having his lawyers file a lawsuit that can be disavowed later is very close to not doing anything.

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. I can see how his position is a difficult one. But when weighed
against the integrity of the vote (which he was implicitly advancing during his run), what on Earth is he thinking?

More, why on Earth did we so passively allow that to happen?

Really, just asking.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:35 PM
Response to Original message
22. Wahhhhhhh fucking Wahhhhhhhhh
Know What? If I were John Kerry I wouldn't want to lead a bunch of fucking crybabies.

Course, that isn't his reason. His reason is strategy and I'll be damned if we at DU have to explain this concept every fucking day to somebody.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. If I were John Kerry, I'd have a clue that I was responsible
Edited on Wed Dec-15-04 10:39 PM by sfexpat2000
to the checkbooks that paid my way.

And not be stupid enough to insult those checkbooks. Isn't that the American way?

Crybaby? Is that what you call someone who holds (generic) you accountable for your word?

How pathetic.
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Blue_In_AK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #22
39. Exactly, IAmReality
Edited on Wed Dec-15-04 11:26 PM by Blue_In_AK
None of us knows what's going on with John Kerry, so why is everybody always trying to read his mind?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Why are any of us having to read his mind? n/t
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angrydemocrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #39
64. Blue_In_Ak and IAmReality
Edited on Thu Dec-16-04 04:09 AM by angrydemocrat
I agree with you guys 100%! All these damn people have elected themselves god, judge, and jury. I say if they are so damn smart and know every damn thing why the hell are they sitting here judging a man that has worked his whole life for this country and the people in it and instead why the hell wasn't they running for president, senate, or congress. Why if they are so damn great and know everything (must be physics :eyes:) why the hell are the sitting on their ass being armchair quarterbacks? It is easy to see and piss in the wind and pass judgment on someone it takes a little work to get off your ass and work for what you believe in. Hell all these that are passing judgment on the man need to go through what this man has in his career to fight for all Americans including those that are so damn quick to pass judgment on the man. They need take a walk in his damn shoes if they think it is such a damn cakewalk. Kerry hasn't done anything except work his ass off and for what people to be disrespectful as hell by passing judgment, making nasty remarks, and screaming he hasn't done enough. Hell he still working and what the hell do they do? Still playing armchair quarterback:crazy:

Hell just because the man isn't screaming they cheated, they cheated, and doing some kind of damn jig for them and the media doesn't mean he isn't doing anything. This is just fucking crazy to sit and judge a man when you don't have all the facts. Until all the evidence is presented you cannot come up with a fair and correct verdict and you sure as hell can't convict!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #64
65. Sorry, this is exactly the attitude that got us here
We don't hold anyone responsible for themselves, their words.

John Kerry asked a lot from us for a long time. Where is he when we need him?

Similarly, my own Rep, Nancy Pelosi, is backing Roemer, an anti-choice guy. Now, Nancy knows as well as I do that abortion rates go 'way, way down when birth control and abortions are LEGAL. And yet, she's backing this man. Must be the weather. Nancy is no dummy.

Yes, I do have to make a decision, a judgment. That's my duty in fact as a citizen. And frankly, were it in my power to demand an investigation of the disenfranchisement of hundreds of thousands of voters, and were I not to look into to that, my momma would disown me.

And she would be right.

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wiggle-room Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
27. YES! By ALL Means, DU Should Attack Kerry...
chant with me now...

pardon me, but bullshit!

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Wonder why you'd equate accountability with attack?

Isn't that Repug thinking? Can't we do better than that?
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wiggle-room Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #29
35. Oh, "repug thinking" am I?
I can see you brushed up on the rules here.

Since you asked, tho, I'll answer.

Repug thinking is believing that slaughtering Iraqi children exemplifies good moral values.

Repug thinking is believing that people are fooled by a little flag waving while thier country is raped.

Repug thinking is believing that repuke operative could sneak unnoticed into a Democratic forum and decievingly guide discussion, emotion, and momentum.

SO there're some things to think about before you go calling someone "repug thinking."

Oh, and if you see one of those repuke operatives around, tell him/her you know what he's/she's up to.

Welcome to DU.

;)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. wiggle, I think you need to take a deep breath
Sure, I read the rules. Didn't you?

I just want to point out, we've been through major junk. We're not going to react well. We may respond better.

I'll give you this one. And apologize for my tone tonight, I'm down.

But, before we go out accusing people, we might look after our own fear coloring our thinking. And you might want to get your facts straight before you embarrass yourself.


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wiggle-room Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:44 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. LOL!
You're cracking me up.

You never even mentioned why you'd accused someone of "repug thinking." Congrats on your evasive abilities.

And turning the subject to me - just masterful!

(And thank you for pointing out "we've been through major junk." I thought something was wrong.)

Yet you are calling for Kerry to be "not spared" - yes?

This is your thread and that was the titile? Yes?

You, yes?

btw, you are welcome to free yourself of the burden of my embarrassment from here forward.

Thanx.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:49 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. Apparently, you're easily amused. And none of this is funny n/t
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #43
48. For what it's worth, wiggle-room
Edited on Thu Dec-16-04 01:00 AM by sfexpat2000
I, too, am tired, too am not trusting at this point. Maybe right, I don't know.

I do know that my family worked for the last two years for a different outcome on 11/2, and although we were warned, I never paid enough attention to the possibility of vote fraud. What an idiot I was. But I did express the concern to MoveOn, and I did start taking names on 11/3

So, I don't blame you in the least if you are wary of me. I'd probably feel/do the same. But if you could Google me (which you can't because I sort of am addicted to my privacy) you'd see that we're on the same side.

My partner & I are putting together a Counter Inaugural in San Francisco on 1/20. If you tell the minders you're fron DU, you're in.

Hard times, let's try to be thoughtful, lol, or who else will be?

my best to you, Elizabeth Ferrari

edited for dyslexic spelling/thinking ef
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #35
46. One up you
Criminal thinking is calling victims of Abu Graib "terrorists" as Rumskull did *just when the pix broke into MSM*.

Criminal thinking is broadcasting the fact you're "democratizing" Iraq when in fact you're leveling cities -- with people in them.

Criminal thinking is giving "medals of honor" to the three thugs that were too hot to keep in your cabinet but to whom you owed a favor.

So, "there's some things to think about before" you go reacting to the truth: if we react without thinking, we're no better.

Have a good night.
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
32. This is no longer his fight
It is ours.

He was just the ideal. Not all of us agree he was the perfect canidate just better then Bush. I for one like the man very much, but not everyone felt he was the perfect choice. I can respect that, despite their misgivings the voted for him anyway.


In a perfect world he would of risked life and limb to stand beside us, but we have no way of knowing if he was told to shut up and sit down. Him coming forward might be a slanderous thing for the current sitting dems? Who knows the motives? Who understands the silence. I am sure in time it will come out. There is a twinkle of him still standing behind the investigation. He hears you.

Until then we have work to do

Regardless of all of the above, this now becomes about us and what we will do. And it's only my opinion.
Who will we harass until election reform is front and center.
When will we ban together and demand voting be a constitutional right.
Elected offical are suppose to be in service to the people. When will we demand they covet minortiy votes and protect those rights with equal # of working equipment.
When will we sue diebold for tampering with our elections?
Remove them from the equation!
Sick watchdogs on Triad?
Remove Sequoia?
We need to focus on taking back our election process from corporations that have no one's "morals" at heart but the value of the almight buck.

There is a list of things to do, until Kerry comes out with his side, we have work to do. We are doing it, but there is always more to do.

It's just my thought process this evening. Do I have some small manner of anger of his silence. Yes some, but I am willing to look past it and focus on the tasks at hand.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:01 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Life and limb? Man, give me a break
First, I so agree with you about the bigger picture.

And also agree with you on how we sort of weirdly idealize our candidates.

But I'm sure you know, Kerry was at no risk of "life and limb" during this run. Most likely, more of us were at risk of losing our jobs, pissing off our spouses, neglecting our children while we worked this campaign with trust.

Again, I repeat, I am not attacking John Kerry. I have not the least little tiny desire to attack him.

But, maybe I'm more left than most of you on DU. Tonight, I'm having a hard time understanding why I or you or all of us are taking big risks trying to get a clean picture of our last national election without Kerry being at our side, asking too. Not through lawyers. Himself.

That's all.
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insane_cratic_gal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. I said
In a "perfect world" he would of risked life and limb.. meaning he would of come out hollering like a mad man.

It is the bigger picture that should stir you.

What do you need Kerry to hold your hand over election reform?

Your just as outraged as the rest of us?

The blame need to be focused where it needs to be. If you want to lay it at his feet. Hey I'm ok with that, I won't think any less of you. A lot of people feel that way with reasons I can't dispute. Just move past that anger for now. You have all of the time in the world to point fingers. Right now we only have till Jan. 6th. to be heard.



However it's still my feeling that is OUR fight. The fight of the people. They aren't going to listen if we snivel. We need to roar. I'm fine with you disagreeing, I understand the disappointment, honestly I feel it myself.
But I can deal with that later, right now I need to discover what we can do today, tomorrow, this weekend, next week. Before Jan 6th passes us by.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Point taken if I misread you sorry. Yes, we've 'way bigger
fish to fry.

I've just been here for the last six weeks reading about all this fraud, keeping track, feeding reporters, just like you all.

And I wonder, why isn't Mr. Kerry here too?

Not a deal breaker for me, in any sense. I'm in it for the long run. But we've got to stop letting our leader off the hook before we're left watching them go over the cliff.

Thanks, B.
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wiggle-room Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
38. What a rediculous position
Edited on Wed Dec-15-04 11:25 PM by wiggle-room
Let's jump to conclusions!

Let's hold Kerry accountable for our assumptions NOW!

Let's weep in dismay that the man we are hoping and praying takes his rightful place in the WH isn't worth a damn.

Kerry this and Kerry that, "but I'm not bashing Kerry."

Lordy.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #38
41. That would be not what I said. Hmmmmmm. n/t
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wiggle-room Donating Member (157 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-15-04 11:55 PM
Response to Original message
45. What, exactly, would you like Kerry to do?
What exactly, in what order, how will it help, how will it make things better, etc.

Official question:

1. a) What do you want him to do, when do you want him to do it, and what do you believe it will accomplish?

b) And then what?


or would you rather just fan the flames of discontent?


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 12:07 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. I'll answer this seriously because it seems you asked it seriously
wiggle-room,

I know I must sound like hell. Like some whatEVER. All I'm trying to point out is, John Kerry is as responsible for this struggle as any of us are -- according to him.

Okay, forget that. I don't care about that. The thing is, if we support someone for most of two years, with our money, our time, our thinking, and then our vote runs into trouble, isn't it reasonable for us to expect that person to stand with us, to simply look at our vote?

I'd like Kerry to be as smart as he is -- and, I think he is. But, it's 'way past the point where he could step in and say, "I may have lost this election. But it looks like hundreds of thousands of citizens were robbed of their right to vote. That's not right. Show me what happened."

Explain to me why that's too much to ask. Really. I'd appreciate it and will just overlook the personal attacks I drew here just asking a question.

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Chasing Dreams Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #47
49. Right On!
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 01:27 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. Fair enough
but how is what he's done so far not up to snuff as far what you'd like him to do? He's stepped in, funded recounts, entered into lawsuits, signed his name 88 times, and in various appearances let us know Ohio has his attention.

Why is that not living up to what he said he would do, which is make sure every vote got counted?

Now if I hadn't heard a peep out of the man since Nov. 3, I'd agree with you. But every time we hear that Kerry or a surrogate of Kerry is doing something, someone pipes up with a "Where's Kerry?" thread. I generally feel like saying "There's Kerry."

I guess I disagree that we need more publicity on this. The media is not our friend. Without hard, hard evidence, we will get nowhere with them. Just as Kerry got nowhere with them during the campaign. I don't see why they would suddenly change and not try to spin him to death if he came charging in the way many want him to.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Where has he been while we've been frantic to get the word
out? Why is it always lawyers or other surrogates? Kerry is a smart man. And yet, he's invisible -- during all this vote fraud?

Where is he when his supporters are fighting for their vote?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 04:57 AM
Response to Reply #53
66. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 05:07 AM
Response to Reply #66
67. Do you know what grown up is? Hilarious.
Why would you be so adverse to holding a man to his word?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #47
52. Well, I'm sorry if I upset or offended any of you, , we've been
Edited on Thu Dec-16-04 01:58 AM by sfexpat2000
through enough.

But the thing is, have you noticed our leadership is in a bumker? That's all I wanted to mark.

I hold no resentments against readers who think I'm a mole. But have to laugh, as I'm somewhere left of Gore Vidal.

And none of that matters for me at this moment. Fairness matters. I'll do my utmost to get the vote counted. And, understand, it's not a one time thing. It's not about whining about this time. This is the awful way we do our elections. Fix them or shut up.

I will no longer sign off on our secret shame. Let them get some other B9tch [email protected] for that. More sorry in the social sense, I'm going to fight for our vote. Get in my way and get sorry.

Can I say "peace" after that? I don't know. B.

edited for dyslexic spelling/thinking but never enough.
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The Judged Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
55. Is it more important for Kerry to be "taken out" for leading this revolt?
OR should we have higher expectations upon our OTHER elected members of Congress to take the front line in this defense of Democracy?

I do not think it either smart or strategically sound to have the presidential candidate and leader of our grass roots movement in a position to be "taken out" by cronies of the corrupt political leadership that take their power from fraudulent elections, illegal military tactics, and enlistment of foreign agents against our Democracy.

Let us enable him to take the high road, and let us do OUR bidding in calling on our more cowardly elected officials and demanding that they risk their political careers on our behalf, so that we might actually come to experience a true Democracy, as the founding fathers of this country had set out to create.

The time has come for our elected officials to DO or DIE politically, and for them to act as though their presence in public office is at our bequest and on our behalf, rather than to preserve their career as a politician or to create opportunities for employment in their post-public-office careers.

It is time for our elected public officials to OVERTLY reject the popular notion that those who dissent are dissidents.

We are Patriots who seek to protect this nation from modern day pirates and pilferers who would, if left unchallenged, return man to global slavery and exploitation and return us to an age of the cavemen, but with modern technological military police oversight by their paid slave trade operators, hand picked from our masses.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. I'm not talking about taking Kerry out, just asking where is he? n/t
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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 02:45 AM
Response to Original message
56. don't feel bad. i agree with what you are saying. i'm tired of the blind
Edited on Thu Dec-16-04 02:46 AM by AgadorSparticus
kerry support. i'd love to believe there is something else going on under the radar but the deafening silence is no longer a beacon of hope that dem. leaders are doing shit under the radar. how long do we wait for them to unleash their furor? and is this going to happen before or after the whole kumbaya-lets-hold-hands shit? give me a fucking break. :eyes: we got our answer. it's just not something that is easy to wrap our brains around. but i'll be damned if i'm going to go on another goose chase fed with cheap hope and "faith".

i don't see them doing anything and i'm supposed to 'have faith'. what the hell bizarro world are we in that democrats are telling me to have faith and repukes are telling me to have faith too. everyone's telling me to 'have faith' in something and not giving me one damn bone to chew on. i'm not a blind follower of any political persuasion. and to rely solely on "faith" in the face of glaring facts is not "faith". how much freaking rationalizing do we do before we wake up to reality? and no real "faith" will advocate blindly following anything. what the fuck happened to discernment and personal responsibility?

i chose to hold judgement until Dec. 13th. It is now time for judgement. Kerry is NOT the person he appears to be. he may have turned that boat around 30 years ago, but he is obviously no longer that man. I personally think that he threw this election and I'm coming to the conclusion that it is not a bad thing. That assface of a so called president has raped us raw. I don't blame Kerry for not wanting to enter a hornet's nest.

But damn it to hell, he could use his position to help us bring the case of voting irregularities and outright fraud into the national stage. Why should we have to do it alone? What exactly do our elected officials stand for if we are the ones feeding them money AND have to do all the work too? And why the hell are so many democrats afraid of the MSM? who gives a shit what the hell they say. since when do we advocate walking on eggshells to appease the fucking RW machine (i believe the palatable term for it is actually 'moderates').

WHEN do we stand for something that is not poll motivated or propaganda pushed on to us? I'm tired of the constant pandering to the rightwing in "hopes" (here we go with that buzzword again) of winning elections that are fraudulent to begin with.

Republican kool aid is unacceptable as is democratic kool aid.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #56
57. Well, what about taking a stand, now?
You know, Agador, I don't have time for this sh3t. My partner is a minor celebrity and needs careful handling and what time do I have to think about all this crQP?

On the other hand, how can I not think or do something about it?

Clearly, the Dems and Kerry and his org know what is going on, in the rough at least, and they're just opting out of it. Because they can.

I don't know if I can sit with that. Even though I may have to. But I'll be damned if ever again I'll enlist other people to dance off this cliff. I guess that's my beef with the Kerry campaign. On the order of, clean up after yourself.

And OF COURSE he could use his position to help with all of this. But there's 2008, you know,and all those votes that won't be counted then either.

Damnn. I'm up for a good fight but not at all up for a charade. Again, I've been working this since 11/3 and may just be tired. But, I don't think so. I think we've been screwed or in the process of being screwed and frankly, I just don't agree to that.
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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. i've taken my stand and got nowhere. i will eventually commit to
Edited on Thu Dec-16-04 03:21 AM by AgadorSparticus
doing more soon. but like i said, i've put off some personal business that needs to be addressed now. life happens and i can't just put it off indefinitely.

you nailed exactly how i feel: i am up for a fight. not a charade. i am flabbergasted. i truly thought there was some master plan but as time goes on, i'm finding them to be willfully complacent. it doesn't sit well with me either. i have things in my life that i need to address now that the election is over. i feel downright betrayed. i don't need anyone to "hold" my damn hand. but i do expect my politicians to hold to their words and show some freaking integrity. they promised a good fight and never delivered. they promised they would hold my interests above theirs and they didn't. i'm disgusted at our one party system.
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The Judged Donating Member (613 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 03:22 AM
Response to Reply #60
61. see post #24 in response to the link below - It's our Democracy to defend
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AgadorSparticus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. that's right. key word being OURS. are kerry and the dem. leaders
Edited on Thu Dec-16-04 03:29 AM by AgadorSparticus
not a part of this democracy?

to add: if democrats are on board for protesting this election, why are we pushing to get the letter out to our senators and reps?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #60
63. Gottcha. Didn't mean to be so negative tonight but
sometimes, truth will out. Maybe tomorrow will be better.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and Im not sure about the universe" - Albert Einstein
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malatesta1137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
68. we were scammed
Karl Rove's most brilliant moment. Deep down, we all knew it.
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hoosierblue Donating Member (108 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
69. Given that we need One Rep. and One Senator
to question the results of any state's election according to the Constitution, why isn't Kerry doing something? Last time I checked he's still a Senator and perfectly capable of putting his name on the line. So what if it's not popular with the Republicans? Nothing any Democrat ever did or said was popular with them. If he's willing to join a civil suit with Cobb and Badnarik, he should be willing to contest the election formally and join Conyers.
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righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #69
71. Won't do any good
Even if it is challenged with Rep and Senator a simple majority up or down vote will quash it.
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demo dutch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
72. We need to be patient, it's all about strategy!!
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
74. BECAUSE PROGRESSIVES DON'T BLAME VICTIMS.
NGU.


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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #74
76. Blame?!
Classwarrior, where is the blame, exactly?

I suggested that John Kerry should be more active on his own behalf, and on our behalf.

How is that blame?
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SammyWinstonJack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 04:54 PM
Response to Original message
75. You're brave or you have very thick skin.
Oh and I agree with you.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 04:57 PM
Response to Reply #75
77. lol. Probably neither. I think that the heartbreak just got to me
last night.

New day. Sorry if I upset folks.
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justsomegirl Donating Member (197 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
78. patience, grasshopper
In Kerry's concession speech transcript, a man in the audience yelled, "We still have your back"

(If you went to a Kerry rally, perhaps you heard the story of the woman who had a very important message for the Senator; her message was essentially "Tell the Senator that the American People have his back")

Kerry's reply?
"Thank you man, and I assure you - you watch - I'll still have yours."

I have the assurance of a man whom I trust, a man who has (more than once) put his own life on the line to help others.

Yes, I'm trusting him. If it takes two more weeks, if it takes two more months, if it takes two more years; however long it takes for this to resolve itself, I'm trusting him. And while I'm trusting him, I'll continue to spread the word about my concerns with this election.

When I voted, I voted for the man whom I believe has the best chance to save this country. I believe that John Kerry is a man of his word. And at this point, I don't have anything to lose.

He knows the game and he knows it better than anyone else on this board. I trust that the man I elected to be my president knows what he's doing.

and in the meantime, I'm doing my part.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-16-04 05:17 PM
Response to Reply #78
79. Oh no! Not the patience thing ; ) n/t
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