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I had a Thought. What if we really lost??

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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 01:42 PM
Original message
I had a Thought. What if we really lost??
I don't think for a minute we did.

But imagine how low and how hopeless America would be if Bush actually did win in Ohio?

I mean really, would there be any hope whatsoever if over 50% of American has grown this evil and stupid?

Im quite certain that the recounts will unveal much to the world and maybe even correct the situation, and give Kerry the inauguration that he deserves.

But still. The only thing worse than having the election stolen....would be if we actually lost.
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 01:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. It would suck, yes, but if we can at least give * a big black eye & grind
his agenda to a halt that would be a big something anyway, so that makes our fight worthwhile. Another win is that we are remobilizing progressives to fight *'s agenda -- that has extremely high value.
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Guarionex Donating Member (371 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 01:46 PM
Response to Original message
2. Don't despair...
Germany went through this before...they got "checked" by the rest of the world...I'm confident that if Germans can come from the Nazi experience and learn to NEVER again support right-wing politicians, we can too...

come to think of it...having America reach that lowest of low points might not be a bad idea...you got to get burned by the stove before you learn never to touch it again, no?
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jamboi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Oh God, please don't let us sink THAT low! n/t
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jimshoes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. No, these a-holes in power now
will keep on touching the stove. (Think Viet Nam) They think that maybe it will be different this time for whatever moronic reason, of course they will still get burned. But yes, when we have sunk or get pummeled into the lowest of lows, ala post WW2 Germany, will the blinders be pulled away from the RW crazies to the hell on earth they have been a party to. Only then can this neo-con nightmare be ended properly with a wooden stake through its Strausian heart.
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Moni74 Donating Member (10 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. ahem...
<<Germany went through this before...they got "checked" by the rest of the world...I'm confident that if Germans can come from the Nazi experience and learn to NEVER again support right-wing politicians, we can too...>>

Not that I expect anything good to come from Mr. Bush, but I sincerely hope you guys won't have to go through that kind of... sublimation (I'm not sure if this is the right word here). Not in that magnitude.

The way I have seen and experienced American national pride, I don't think this nation would survive what happened to German patriotism.

Hi, btw. Nice to meet ya :)
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #2
14. As you recall, Germany didn't stop on it's own.
It took the rest of the world to stop it. Also, Hitler didn't have nukes.
If he did, those of us who survived would be Germany's slaves right now.
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googly Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #2
15. The German example does not fit, we forced them to relinquish Hitler
otherwise there would have been the 1000 year third Reich.
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. I'm expecting the mask to fall off
Revealing the smug, hateful face underneath. I don't even think these folks realize how repulsive their gloating hypocracy looks to anyone with common sense, including a portion of their own party.

I think it's already slipping in fact. Buyer's remorse will set in, esp. if these people are stupid enough to institute a draft. I hope they have a gay ol' time herding the cats in their own party.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 05:33 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. Clarkie, you'd enjoy reading the front page piece today
about how Bush is a Don Quixote figure--I did. He's a child-man with a pre-adolescent view of the world. A very good read!
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Angelique Donating Member (67 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #2
26. having America reach that lowest of low points might not be a bad idea
Let me see if I really understand.. You want America to crash..to teach all Americans a lesson.. You know I may not fit in your view of our universe. No wonder half of this country thinks we are hateful NUTS.. It only takes a few bad apples to make the rest of the bushel seem rotten..
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Higans Donating Member (819 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 01:51 PM
Response to Original message
4. It dosn't matter if we lose this time we are thinking of 08
Thats the point.

This isn't just about this election, It is about the next one too. It's about 06 and 08 and 10. This is about our children's Children. If election reform is not completed No one may ever have the right to vote again.

It's so obvious a cause. we need paper trails and real Auditing. I'm doing this for you and your children. I'm doing this for my birth Mother who I haven't scene since I was born. Thats what this is about.

The truth is this. For the last 3 elections if not more the computer ballot boxes have been rigged. Large scale rigged. If this is not obvious to you, your not paying attention. Even if I can't get a fair game this time, I want a fair game next time. Thousands of people around the world are protesting.

the constitution grants All Humans the right to vote. not just the two or three who control the central tabulators. The reason it was not fixed in 04 after 2000 is because no one said anything after 2000. The only way it will ever get fixed by 06 and 08 is if we stand up and say something NOW.

Do the people of this country ever want their right to vote? I'm starting to wonder. So far Crowds are showing up in the 100's at multiple state capitals. I'm going now. I hope all the peace loving people join me there.

I :heart U Human Race. Happy Holidays.
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MoonRiver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
7. I just want to know, one way or the other.
If we actually lost I can deal with that, because we will have opportunities to get our candidates elected in new elections. BUT, if the fix is in and Repukes are winning by cheating it's a whole other ball game. That means our democracy is dead or dying. We need to know what situation this country is really in. That's why the recount must proceed.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 02:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. What If Alf Actually Won The Election And We Are All Wrong
Holy shit could you imagine how depressing that would be if ALF actually won, but they destroyed his votes? I mean what if ALF did win? We would be the mockery of the world. That would be the worst! Now, Don't Get me wrong, I firmly believe ALF didn't win, But what if, let's just say, what if ALF really did win? Holy Crap that would suck.....

......Want some more whatifs? :)
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #8
33. Well that would suck to
But IM talking about something that IS within the realm of possibility, albeit unlike and highly desireable.

talk of Alf winning kinda misses the point.
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IAMREALITY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #33
53. Actually
I think you missed the point of the whole Alf winning scenario.

The point is both cases are equally absurd, taking into consideration what we know now.
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catnhatnh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #8
58. And remember Alf's latest book....
....CAT-The Other White Meat....
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JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
9. I live in Ohio....Until this election, I'd never seen anything like this:
Friends, family, and fellow union members crossing the line to vote for Buxh and his great patriotic war. There was no talking to them on this issue, Buxh was going to save us.

I'm a lifelong resident of the "rust belt", the one region of Ohio with the least reasons to support the current administration, yet there were the yard signs, bumper stickers, and buttons.

I don't know who really won Ohio, but the fact that it was close enough to steal is an enigma unto itself.

From those I talked to I suspect it had to do with Buxh killing Arabs in the name of the "War on Terror". In other words, simple unadulterated racism. (Ay-rabs attacked us...let's get revenge) Many others cited Buxh's "religious calling", but I still think racial prejudice was the root for support of the "Holy War".

No matter who really won Ohio, I'm embarrassed for the vast number of people here that DID wage a vote for these new American policies.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
13. What does it mean, close enough to steal?
With a computer, you can shift millions of votes with a touch of the button.
What exactly is "close enough to steal"?
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JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
42. Close... because I saw more people than I can explain sporting
Edited on Sun Dec-12-04 07:10 PM by JohnnyRingo
stickers and buttons supporting Buxh in blue collar areas of Ohio.

The vote in states like Ohio should have been 75%-25%.

The county I vote in is traditionally democrat. Though we still voted 2 to 1 for Kerry, I couldn't ignore the visible support for Buxh present in these working class neighborhoods that had nothing to gain by a Buxh presidency.

Frankly, for whatever reason, the actual vote in Ohio was very unlikely 75%-25%, thereby making election theft an easily attained goal.

Your optimistic hope of Kerry winning Ohio by a landslide is not going to be until the end of voter ignorance susceptable to a candidate that holds the bible before him in his a bid to protect the uneducated masses from the Islamic Boogeyman.

I think the war against people that look different than us was the deciding factor for those blue collar voters. Also known as plain old racism.

I'm sad to find the social climate to be such that this can happen here, but I've seen it with my own eyes.
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. maybe not 75/25
But I doubt that any part of the nation really has a majority of idiots voting for another idiot.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #42
56. I am sorry, but I don't accept it
Shouldn't have been close enough to steal-it's crap. Elections shouldn't be stolen. Period. Even if it is a close election.
:grr:
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
10. It's not about Kerry, it's about America
It was never about John Kerry. People placed heart and hope and time and effort into this race because they sincerely believed that America is headed down the wrong road. Kerry was a good nominee, but he is not the message, he was the 2004 messenger.

There are still people who have no idea where their next meal is coming from in America. There are still children who have no health care and whose parents can't find a job with decent benefits. We just saw a news interview wherein our guys, our troops in Iraq have to go out and scavenge in dumps in order to get some armor for their vehicles. We have small towns in America that are closing schools and services because they have no opportunities that beckon young familes to stay. We can't eat the fish we catch because the fish have too much mercury in them. And so on and so on.

The message, as it always, always does, exceeds the messenger. I am not a Democrat because I supported John Kerry. (Or Howard Dean or John Edwards, etc.) I worked for them because they promised to work for America. Because I thought it actually bothered them that we have homeless Veterans who can't get services and that this is wrong. And the Democrats told me that we should be helping more people get Pell grants and go to school because education matters and helps get people out of poverty. And that it is morally wrong to deny a kid health care because their parents can't afford it. And so much more that show America can be better and we can work toward that greater goal.

And I believed them. And I still believe them. The messenger is always imperfect and full of human faults. But the message is still there, ready for the next messenger to pick it up and start running with it. And I'm going to be there and contribute everything I can to help that person. Because the message matters, what I do to support it matters, and the needs of others matter. It's the genuine soul of the Democratic Party and it might get a bit muddled from time to time, but it's there and I supoort it with all my heart. It's bigger than one election and I won't let any defeat be permanent. America demands that much from me. And I will demand that much from any future messengers.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 03:07 PM
Response to Original message
11. No matter how many votes
were stolen, the truth of the matter is that somewhere around half of the people in this country actually voted for Bush. Think about it. Approximately half of the population of this great country thought he was the better choice.

And that is why we need to take back the party, starting at the grass roots level. If you are not already involved, get involved. Become a precinct committee chair. Consider running for local office. Support progressive candidates that do.

It's going to take years, but we can eventually change things.
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googly Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. I can explain your thesis by-->
saying that half of the population is stupid and moronic and therefore wanted a leader just as stupid and moronic.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #18
54. Yeah, half the population is stupid
and moronic and obviously wanted a leader equally stupid and moronic. Seems quite obvious to me.

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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 03:54 PM
Response to Reply #11
20. It seems to me we need to learn how to reach those people who STILL
Edited on Sun Dec-12-04 03:55 PM by Wordie
think that it was Iraq that attacked us on 9/11. That may be the answer to getting enough votes to beat the repubs. How do you communicate with those people who just aren't paying attention, and then base their decision on misinformation?

I would be embarrassed if I was a Republican, to know that the thing that may have made a big difference in the vote totals was people who believed this nonsense.

(edited for clarity)
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Sideways Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #11
44. Shelia T If The Vote Was Stolen How Can You Quote Stats?
For fuck sakes girl you say the vote was stolen then you say half of the people voted for Bush. If the vote was stolen that half of the population does not exist.

What the fuck are you going on about? Half of the population did NOT think he was the better choice. Those folks got jobbed and robbed. Like we all did. You need a logic class. Fuck your shit about grass roots. I'm taking voter fraud to the fucking bank NOW. NOW as in today. Got it?

I know it is hard work being on DU. We are smart and that makes it harder. Gotcha baby.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #44
55. What I'm trying to say
(and I'm sorry I didn't make it more clear) is that yes, I believe the election was stolen. But it's should be pretty obvious that around half the population voted for W. Those two statements are not incompatible.

They simply did a better job of stealing the election this time around. They made it look almost legitimate, so long as you buy into the idea that any anomalies or evidence of fraud is inconsequential and wouldn't effect the ultimate outcome.

And it you're so fired up Sideways, I hope you've been out rioting in the streets. As for me, I'm doing the grass roots thing, because I don't notice enough of my fellow citizens out there rioting.

I even ran for office, so I guess I'm entitled to say something about grass roots and being involved.
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LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
12. As far as I can see, it doesn't make much difference-
the end result is the same. We got Bush... Also, Blackwell did all he could to deliver OH to Bush, just how low did he go? WTF knows at this point?
:nuke:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
16. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
17. Bush got 50+ million votes - win or lose
So did Kerry

But the winner was noneoftheabove and his VP makesnodiff who got 80+ million votes.
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. huh?
Im a bit slow today, Im not sure what you are trying to say.
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mulethree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #32
39. that even if we won, we still have 50 million idiots
Theres 10 million who benefit from Bush
45 million more who voted for him anyway

35 million who voted for Kerry
20 million who voted against Bush (in the Kerry column)

80 million more who didn't vote
Some tried but were disenfranchised
Some feel it doesn't matter, our elected people aren't calling the shots, theres some unelected group thats actually pulling the strings.
Some who are just so downtrodden that elections are way down their list of priorities.
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rumpel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
40. 50 Million were misled, when facts prove suspicions many will be disgusted
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jbond56 Donating Member (295 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 03:38 PM
Response to Original message
19. How can we really know?
Since the margin of victory was only a few points either way and nearly 30% of ballots can not be verified. How can you really determine who won?

Don't get me wrong if shrub pulls it off we know America lost.
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
21. That's the REALLY scary thing, isn't it. n/t
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henslee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 04:10 PM
Response to Original message
22. NOT THE POINT. COUNTING THE VOTES IS THE POINT. JEEZ.
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sportndandy Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. absolutely
and the pugs thould think so too. How can they expect to govern effectively if a significant majority dispute their authority? They should want to clear the air more than the democrats, and the fact that they don't is what is suspicious.
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henslee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 04:34 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. This is why the adversial antics of Blackwell must be dealt with NOW. nt
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. not the point of the recount maybe
But it is the point of my thread.
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KatieB Donating Member (431 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
27. Exit polls were right - and were good enough for Bush to challenge vote in
the Ukraine.
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. exactly
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tandem5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 04:56 PM
Response to Original message
28. recounts are only a starting place. Don't expect them to be a...
make-or-break kind of deal.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
29. What use is speculation like this?
"What if we really lost?," or

(upthread): "...somewhere around half of the people in this country actually voted for Bush..."

No way to know this.

Let me just recite the facts for you:

1. Major Bush donors (Bush "Pioneer" Wally O'Dell) and rightwing fanatics (H. Ahmanson) OWN and control as proprietary information the SECRET source code that runs all the electronic central vote tabulation machines in the country.

2. They ALSO own and program many of the individual electronic voting machines (and other R's and wingers own the rest).

3. This election machinery has been proven to be extremely insecure and hackable (one hacker, a couple of minutes). (It's written in C++ and runs on Windows, to give you an idea.)

4. They insisted that no paper trail was necessary, and got their wish in one third of the country--so that part of the country is not even auditable (or it's very difficult); in the other part, you have to get down to the actual voting and voter registration records, line by line, to audit the vote. (It's all fed into the central machines and tabulated there.)

5. In whatever ways experts and election fraud activists have found to parse this election--Exit Polls vs. the official "results," Absentee Ballots vs. electronic vote, top of the ticket vs. the lower ticket, '00 vs. '04 voting patterns, etc.--overwhelming indications of fraud (impossible numbers, all in Bush's favor) have been found. There are anomalous numbers and evidence of fraud in at least a dozen states.

6. The evidence points to this: That Bush Inc. manufactured votes for Bush and stole votes from Kerry all over the country, and did special vote suppression prep in Ohio (and also in FLA), aimed at Democratic, poor and minority voters, to keep the race there close, and to make it SEEM like it all comes down to a relatively few "provisional" ballots in OH (or FLA), with a partisan Republican Secretary of State in charge of judging the validity of those votes.

There are many indications that Kerry actually won. But short of a re-vote (which is really the best solution), we may never be able to pin down "beyond a reasonable doubt" what the vote was and who won. Because Bush Inc. SET IT UP that way!

Also, Ohio is just part of the picture--and it's where election activists have been able to concentrate their energies, because the vote suppression there was so blatant. But there really should be audits going on in every state (there are in some, both official and unofficial).

What we have so far is a mountain of cumulative evidence--57,000 complaints to Congress on vote suppression or malfunctioning machines (f.i., touchscreen machines repeatedly changing Kerry votes to Bush votes, all day long), expert analysis of various statistics, and highly suspicious behavior by Ohio and other Republican election officials (in addition to outright crimes--violations of state and federal election laws).

What we had, really, was a fraudulent election system going in. This never should have happened (where was the Democratic leadership on this? WHERE!?)

Your point is well-taken, that SOMEONE voted for Bush, my guess is around 45% of the voters. And we DO need to think about them, and wonder at their brainwashing (most of them voting against their own interests). But before we think about them, we need to think about US--the majority--and OUR votes, and what happened to them, and inform and awaken other KERRY voters, and find the remedy for this fraudulent election.

Bear in mind there were many, many reports of former Bush supporters rejecting Bush and voting for Kerry. (I know some myself). Republican votes were stolen, too.

I personally have a lot of faith in the American peoples' good common sense, and I was very glad to have that confirmed by their amazing turnout this election to repudiate Bush Inc. They saw through all the B.S.! I firmly believe that, based not just on my faith in them, but based on the evidence.

One thing I greatly respect about DU is its constant testing of reality vs. hope.

But the question, "What if we lost?", needs to be put aside until we have all the evidence before us of what actually happened. (All evidence so far says Kerry probably won. I have seen NOTHING to make me think otherwise. Evidence of various kinds is still being developed. Big breakthroughs--"smoking guns", whistle blowers--have not been confirmed.)

Furthermore, I doubt that any Bushwingers are giving ANY thought to US. According to the reckoning of their secret vote tabulation source code, WE are almost half of the voters.

But they are not into consensus government. They are a fascist coup, and clearly intend to destroy our rights, demoralize us, rob us blind and shred the Constitution.

People who stupidly voted for them need to be pitied and understood, but the leaders and their rabid followers--and the "dark actors" behind the scenes (that Dr. David Kelly, the British weapons inspector, referred to in an email shortly before his death--and by which I mean the war profiteers, the oil companies, the "black ops" people, and all who are colluding with them) need one thing: to be stopped.



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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 05:07 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. Same use as any speculation
or discussion.

Thanks for the long post as I suspect you put alot of time into it.
Also thanks for laying out the facts. Not so much for me, but others (im well aware of them).

No, I was more wondering out loud and reflecting upon the emotions of this debacle.

The whole thing sucks quite frankly.
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serbach Donating Member (35 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-14-04 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #29
68. It's hard for me to assimilate all of this
For example:

>> overwhelming indications of fraud (impossible numbers, all in Bush's favor) have been found. <<

I followed the polls very carefully in the run-up to the election on http://www.electoral-vote.com . The ebb and flow of the numbers showed a very close race right down to the end...and the final electoral map was very similar to the last few maps posted on that site. How are the actual vote totals "impossible?"

>> (where was the Democratic leadership on this? WHERE!?) <<

Reminds me of the Will Rogers quote: "I belong to no organized party. I am a Democrat." Is this representative of your feelings?

>> (All evidence so far says Kerry probably won. I have seen NOTHING to make me think otherwise. Evidence of various kinds is still being developed. Big breakthroughs--"smoking guns", whistle blowers--have not been confirmed.) <<

I trust that you wish to be taken seriously in the arena of ideas? Or are you content with comfortable conspiracy theories?

Ever hear of Occam's Razor?

Sincerely,

Steve Erbach
Neenah, WI
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Bill Bored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
35. Stolen is worse!
If we lost, it's just a matter of hearts and minds. They can be changed and there are PLENTY of Dems actively engaged in figuring out just how to do that. IMHO, a number of mistakes were made in the campaign, not the least of which was NEVER holding the Bushies accountable for 9/11, which happened on THEIR watch amid a number of very credible warnings. Meanwhile we let them get away with blaming it on Bill Clinton! (Why not Hamilton or Jefferson?!) This incensed me, especially when you see in the exit polls what an important issue terrorism was.

If on the other hand, there was systemic fraud, and the election was stolen from the voters -- not just the Democrats -- we are all in a far more serious and dangerous situation!

One more thing: The actions of the Greens and Libertarians, which must be applauded by anyone who cares about democracy, could have a negative effect on the Dems in the next election. If our party does not stand up for itself, there will be a lot of disaffected Democrats who will head for the hills! And guess who will be the primary beneficiary of that?

It's enough to make me think Rove planned it this way. I.e., make it look like fraud, even though they won, and watch us fight over the crumbs. How's that for tin-foil-hat thinking?
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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 05:28 PM
Response to Original message
36. Nah-- losing is NOT worse...
...than having the election stolen.

And I would also add that losing is NOT worse than seeing the media cave in and deliberately BURY this major story, while they loudly cover any crumb from Ukraine.

--------
The average B**h voters are definitely NOT stupid, but they have been manipulated by masters of the game. Anybody can be taken into a massive con game playing on their fears and prejudices. Gotta remember there were also a lot of very smart R business people who were just voting their bottom line...stupid, nope, just busy in their counting house with Scrooge McDuck.

Democratic party goals and ideals are ON THE RISE in this country--
this is the truth behind all the myths. BUT Democrats also have not given these voting issues the emphasis they deserve. Turning away from the crisis in voter confidence we have now is not consistent with the ideals associated with the D party. Tilt.

----------

I agree with mypetrock #7 above--who said:

"...if the fix is in and Repukes are winning by cheating it's a whole other ball game. That means our democracy is dead or dying. We need to know what situation this country is really in. That's why the recount must proceed."








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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
37. I'd rather know it for sure
even if Kerry did lose--I'd rather know it. I'd think the Republicans would also like us to know it. So why are they so silent and/or resistant to recounts? Hmm.
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intelle Donating Member (416 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
41. "The only thing worse than having the election stolen...."
Even if we lost, fraud did occur, and it is good that there are efforts now to investigate it.

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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 08:20 PM
Response to Original message
45. We will never know.
I have a feeling we were Diebolded all over...the exit polls were WAY off.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 08:32 PM
Response to Original message
46. Between 45-51% VOTED BUSH
So regardless of what happens with the Ohio vote, we've still got some problems in this country and we can't ignore them.
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Chimpanzee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 08:53 PM
Response to Original message
47. No way did we lose - absolutely no way!!!
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
48. Wont matter, because Karl Rove and the GOP really did CHEAT
And they are going to be caught.
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googly Donating Member (801 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #48
59. Best if we catch them before the inauguration
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McCamy Taylor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
49. Losing the election is never worse than having its stolen...
...because a stolen election means that your democracy is dead.
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mcg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
50. Yes there would be hope.
IF, and that's a big IF, Bush actually got more than 50% (which I doubt), he would have gotten just slightly more 50%. That can easily be overcome, I think the tide is turning against these thugs, it's just taking time. What's more important is to get fair elections, rigging elections is the only way they can hold on to power.
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sparky_in_ma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 10:30 PM
Response to Original message
51. Low and hopeless?
Our fledgling democracy faced losses at Lexington and Concord, but in the end the war was won. Ironically ,with the help of the French, who the neo-cons despise.

I will not feel low while the the Declaration of Independence is rising like a Phoenix in threads posted by mom cat, eloriel, and Atman. I will not feel helpless while threads posted by ClassWarrior and althecat rebuild the Constitution. I will not give up hope of a better future while the Bill of Rights lives in the threads of Faye, Doohickie, and yes, the Gun Dungeon.

That's the future I see.
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newyawker99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #51
61. Hi sparky_in_ma!!
Welcome to DU!! :toast:
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-12-04 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
52. What pisses me off
Edited on Sun Dec-12-04 10:47 PM by Carolab
is that these people are so crooked they have to be watched 24/7 so that the elections records aren't tampered with. Witness Greene County. So what I want to know is, what's been going on in all this time? How does anyone know if anything has been altered since election night or not?

This thing should just be voided and revoted. We can't trust it after all this time. Not with this band of thugs.

Throw it out.
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liberalla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 12:33 AM
Response to Original message
57. ??? What if we really lost ???
PROVE IT!!!

That's the whole problem. Works both ways. We need verifiable results!

Bush WON? HA!

PROVE IT!!!

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ClintCooper2003 Donating Member (629 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 04:44 AM
Response to Original message
60. If we actually lost, I really blame the right-wing media.
I watched CNN and MSNBC every single day leading up to the election. The coverage was astoundingly biased.
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tbrosz Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Electoral college
Just curious...if Kerry had squeaked past Bush in Ohio and won the presidency while over three million popular votes behind, would that have made him an "illegitimate president?"

Nice to see the Electoral College is back in favor again.
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Fescue4u Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 05:01 PM
Response to Original message
63. I guess it DOESNT Matter now
Now that Ohio has illegally bypassed the will of the voters today.

sad.
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Guarionex Donating Member (371 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
64. If we lost...
then America lost....not to sound arrogant, but if the liberals don't make the majority in America...then Bush is the least of our problems...ignorance, fear, and a public that is liable to be affected like the Nazis affected the Germans is our problem...

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liberal43110 Donating Member (687 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 05:27 PM
Response to Original message
65. Actually, I Disagree
I disagree that it would be worse to lose than to have the election stolen. Like Jesse Jackson said, "We can live with winning and losing. We can not live with fraud and stealing." A free, fair, and transparent election system is what I am fighting for, not merely for a democratic winner in the 2004 election. The issue is much larger than that. Granted, I think it is inconceivable for anyone to have voted for Bush. But I will accept the results of a free election (and simply express dismay at those who are clearly stupid, backward, and biggoted enough to have voted for Bush). I will not accept the results of a fraudulent election (even if my candidate is the winner/cheater).
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shiina Donating Member (294 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
66. Either way, we've got something to work on. :)
A few points.

1. If Bush wins, there's no way he'll last another four years. There are just too many scandals waiting in the wings. Nixon won, too, after Watergate, then it broke. No matter what happens, I'm waiting (and helpding) to see him and his go down in flames.

2. We'll have a fabulous demonstration at his inaguration. Get together a lot of diverse groups, organize, get the media attention...

3. Even if he wins, it's obvious there was voter supression and fraud. This needs to get out, so that people stop trusting the government so damn much and so that we get something done about our extremely vulnerable voting system.

4. I was taking a look at the Ohio exit poll info...the questions they asked people, and the numbers are very clear...the people that believe the lies voted for Bush. It was about 20/80 on all of the questions. People who believe we're safer from terror, that Iraq is going well, that the economy is fine...they vote for Bush. Of course, these are all demonstrably and extremely false. We just need to wake people up.



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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Dec-13-04 05:56 PM
Response to Original message
67. Deleted message
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