Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

The difference betweent the US and the Ukraine

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU
 
Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 07:29 PM
Original message
The difference betweent the US and the Ukraine
A woman who called Pacifica Radio today made this point:

In the Ukraine, the Exit Polls were kept separate from the machine-count, and so everyone knew the election was a fraud.

In the US, Mitofsky originally provided accurate Exit Poll numbers, and these showed Kerry winning.

Starting at 4 PM, Mitofsky deceptively mixed the machine-count with the Exit Poll results, while still calling it an "Exit Poll."

This gave the false impression that Bush had suddenly taken the lead in the Exit Polls.

----

There should be a Code of Ethics for pollsters which prevents them from mixing in the machine-count and calling it an Exit Poll, as Mitofsky did.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 07:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Another difference.
Ukrainians took to the streets, Americans took to the barcalounger.

But yes, I agree. There should be standards for exit poll data, tabulation and reporting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 07:39 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Americans didn't have the assistance of a responsible media.
I would tend to blame the Corporate Media Whores, and not the American people. Which one would you blame?

NGU.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. You know, the American people tend to do the right thing when...
...they have good information. And this is exactly what the Radical RW wants -- they want us blaming our potential supporters in the populace, and not the corporatists and Media Whores who are really the guilty parties.

NGU.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. Don't get me wrong. I blame the media and the corporations
for encouraging the ignorance, whether passive or active. However, the fact remains. We do not have rioting in the streets, do we?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rdmccur Donating Member (622 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. We're too comfortable,
Don't want to rock the boat.
Also there's the phenomena of 'cognitive dissonance'
when so many people become attached to 'their' leader
(as occurs in cults).
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Another difference-they are organized, and their leader wants
them to protest and get out on the street. Our leader told us to follow Bush and play nice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:05 PM
Response to Reply #7
15. That's a bald-faced lie. He said count every vote. Helloooo???...
NGU.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. No lie.
Edited on Wed Dec-08-04 11:51 PM by lizzy
Ukrainian opposition leader demanded a whole new election. He did not concede even though vote counts shows him to be behind.
Kerry conceded and told us we should follow Bush. :spank:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 07:35 PM
Response to Original message
2. fat butts and no guts
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
sportndandy Donating Member (710 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 07:37 PM
Response to Original message
3. Not so fast
An alternate scenario is that the election results in the Ukraine are valid; it is the exit polls that are tainted because of undue western influence (i.e. u.s. intelligence tampering) and the subsequent street demonstrations are being orchestrated from the west as well. How do you explain the level of organization that the demonstrations have? They have rock bands and lazer shows; is that really spontaneous?
My point is, I don't know what to believe, but I think it is just as likely that the west is trying to steal the Ukraine through the exit poll in the opposite way it was used in this country.
Yummy food for thought.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. There is no doubt they are organized.
It's not "spontaneous".
LOL.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. Good point
He is pro west.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MominTN Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 07:40 PM
Response to Original message
5. maybe the exit polling company is in on the fraud
I find it odd that there used to be two exit polling companies until this election. AP made such a point in their annoucement about how good this company was that would be doing the exit polls that it makes me think it was a setup. The media wasn't going to call the election early again or lead us to believe Kerry was winning so the election polling company did it instead, all the time knowing that the actual vote would be counted "differently". Just my opinion.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. I'd like a group I trust like "People for the American Way"
or "MoveOn" to do its own Exit Poll in 2006.

I realize that the general public will assume any poll by MoveOn is biased, but I trust MoveOn more than I trust Mitofsky.

I never heard of Mitofsky before, and yet 300 million Americans are supposed to trust him to gauge the election.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 08:28 PM
Response to Original message
10. Pacifist Patriot! sportndandy!
Hey, Pacifist Patriot! (I like your name!)

But Americans probably took to the "barcalounger" (if that's what they did) because they DIDN'T KNOW what had happened. The TV networks hid the truth from them.

I don't know--maybe they would've drowned in drink anyway--and not protested. But obviously Bush Inc. didn't want to take that chance.

(And it was the networks, I believe, not the polling company, Mitofsky, that polluted the data--at least it appears so. Mitofsky gave them the Exit Poll data. AP gave them the Republican-controlled electronic vote tally--in an arrangement that has an odd smell about it, too. Where Mitofsky is to blame is in not disclosing all the Exit Poll data now. It probably shows a Kerry blowout.)

sportndandy:

I don't doubt Bush Inc.'s complete lack of conscience as to messing with another country's election, but you provide no evidence at all that that was the case in the Ukraine.

Rock bands and light shows is not evidence. (You'd be amazed what students can put together in an hour!)

Why would they fiddle the Exit Polls in the Ukraine, and not do it here? Here, the Exit Polls showed a big Kerry win, all day, until they started polluting the data. I think a better surmise is that they couldn't get Mifosky to tweak the Exit Polls to Bush, and had to resort to Plan B, getting the networks to pollute the data. (Their Election 2004 Fraud Plan shows a lot of this kind of flexibility--if they came up against a paper trail in one part of a state's vote--say in NC, a 30% absentee ballot vote--they stole from the e-votes portion, and made it up in, say, New Mexico.)

Also, clearly, to get 500,000 people into the streets, there had to be a lot of support for the wronged candidate, and anybody that popular couldn't be a friend of the Bush regime. (So why would Bush Inc. do it?)

I'm not at all against speculation and scenario-writing. It can help to figure things out (especially a complex scheme like this stolen election). But on the Exit Polls Nov. 2, it's not just speculating. That's what really happened. It's completely backed up by the facts. Why confuse it with a wholly speculative notion about the Ukraine?

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Pacifist Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. I'm not talking about cause, I'm referring to effect.
I agree that ignorance is a HUGE factor. I do hold the corporate-held media responsible for their silence.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
savistocate Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. This article expands a picture of why the Ukraine
Edited on Wed Dec-08-04 09:08 PM by savistocate
vast majority support their candidate. Before this reading I had not heard or read much of what has aroused them.

This "Dark Power" as all recent govt since Independence has been seen and described, sounds like our last 4 yrs here.

A real difference is their democracy is just beginning to be fought for. Ours is in severe decay. Stolen corrupted almost unrecognizable as democracy. Only like in both facing a great struggle. We have a deep foundation to set against corp take-over.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/103406451.ht...

The present US govt being for this candidate almost brings a conclusion or suspicion Yush(sp)must be somehow fake.
It seems more possible it's Putin, seen as an adversary, his candidate would be rejected.

Yush..... has been Prime Minister working broadly to establish more democracy. The man was poisoned by some faction of the status quo-establishment!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
savistocate Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
14. Link is not as I posted ??
It is htm at the end not hm..

Very enlightening info..in short form.

It was from Knight Ridder/Washington.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
19. I didn't need the media to tell me the vote was BS. eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Democrat Dragon Donating Member (699 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:22 PM
Response to Original message
16. Americans want the election over and done with
On Novemeber 3rd, I remeber overhearing some people saying stuff like "whew, I'm glad the election is over". I've even spoken to some teachers at school about this issue and they said they were jsut glad it was over. Not to metion when I was wathcing TV, I could already see some Christmas and Thanksgiving commercials. I then watched the local news for awhile. So I put them together and I figured out that the materialistic, corporation-hypnotized, consuming average American would rather worry about the holidays, Scott Peterson, the Neverland Ranch search, black people breaking into their houses, their kids smoking, some girl who had sex with their teacher, what celeberty is dating what celeberty, and someone's new album than about the legitimacy of their election. On the other hand this was a pretty rough campaign and people didn't want another Florida to happen. Eric Blumerich of Bushflash.com metioned on his website that Americans have taken democracy for granted wheras the Ukranians have only had it for 13 years and cherish dearly.

:puke: What has America become? If Martin Luther King were alive today he probably wouldn't recognize this country. :cry:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
genieroze Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:26 PM
Response to Reply #16
20. Our founding fathers are rolling over in their graves. eom
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
reality_bites Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-08-04 11:51 PM
Response to Original message
22. Not deceptive...
"Starting at 4 PM, Mitofsky deceptively mixed the machine-count with the Exit Poll results, while still calling it an 'Exit Poll.'

That's not deceptive. That's how you conduct an exit poll.

See here: http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/11/the_differe...

"Once the polls close, NEP gathers actual results for the precincts sampled in the exit polls gradually combines the exit poll results and the actual vote counts into an evolving hybrid of projections and estimates that gradually improves over the course of the evening...

Once the actual results have been counted in the wee hours of election night, NEP re-weights the results of each exit poll so that the vote preference on the exit poll matches the actual count."

The primary purpose of exit polls is not for the media to be able to call the vote early, project a winner, or prove/disprove fraud. If it was, then it wouldn't make sense to conduct exit polls as they are.

The primary purpose for the exit poll is for demographic research and breakdowns of how different groups voted. For this purpose it makes complete sense to recalculate the exit poll based on actual votes.

Mitofsky was doing the job he was paid to do and he did the same way it's always been done. No deception here.

People keep conflating the term "exit poll" with "exit poll raw numbers." They aren't the same thing.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Feb 22nd 2018, 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Topic Forums » Election Reform Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC