I would like some help in understanding how a recount would

[Road Scholar]

of countable paper votes could be of any value without being able to count the computerized votes that were obviously tampered but left no paper trail.

[BR_Parkway]

1. If the hack is in the tabulators, then the number of paper

ballots cast better match up with the number reported, if not, it throws everything out of whack.

[Road Scholar]

4. Thanks, wouldn't the bushies be smart enough to consider that?

It's amazingly obvious that fraud occurred, but those suckers know enough to cover their behinds.Couldn't they just report the needed totals to cover their asses?

[BR_Parkway]

6. In theory, yes, but think about the logistics

Someone (one person) could sit anywhere in the world that they had access to the internet, log in to one or more tabulators and make changes as they need to. No huge conspiracy that requires thousands of people to keep their mouth's shut.

If they tried to do something in the individual precinct/counties, they would have to organize a massive group of people, anyone of which could turn into a witness against them if something happened down the road.

The simplest way to do it without alot of potential witnesses later is the one or two person hacking in, and the way you assure that no one looks too closely is to hack the states and areas that we all expected to go for * anyhow, add in a bunch of votes so that Shrub wins by a "mandate". Then everyone else concedes, goes home and licks their wounds and no one asks to see any records.

No wonder everyone is so defensive about allowing folks to look and recount. Sure, they have a natural self interest not to, if any problems are found it makes them look incompetent/criminal. So, I would have expected that as a given. But what no one was anticipating was the sharp interest in the exit poll results and where the anomolies pointed everyone.

[gkhouston]

9. "Fixing" the paper to match the totals

I am perversely encouraged by Blackwell's ongoing lack of cooperation. It gives me some hope that the punch card ballots have not been compromised.

There's another kind of paper trail that the recount will give us access to: the poll books. If you think stuffing a ballot box is a time-consuming pain in the ass, try faking signatures in a poll book. I clerked a few elections in my starving student days. Here in Texas, each thick page of a poll book is really several thin sheets of carbon-impregnated paper bound together with one sheet of card stock. At the end of the day, we had to take all those sheets apart and sort them according to color. Each color had its own envelope, sealed at the precinct, which went to a different destination. Lots o' copies of those poll books. So if someone at the county or state level wanted to forge some signatures on all those copies, they'd have hell's own time doing it. I'm betting no one went to the trouble, and I've heard rumors of poll book discrepancies. Yet another reason Blackwell is resisting the recount.

Gina

[IndyPriest]

32. VERY interesting.

But spell this out some. I remember someone else brought this up a couple weeks ago. But I don't quite get what you get by checking these books. Count signatures from poll books as if they were "votes" and then compare those with the ones tabulated later? What does checking the poll books tell you?

[gkhouston]

33. Count the signatures and also see...

if the signatures look like they were actually made by several hundred different people. I wouldn't be surprised if they bring in a handwriting expert to look for signs of forgery -- hesitations in the writing, signatures that are too similar, etc.

Given that the Conyers letter had some specific questions about Perry county having registered voters with no signatures on file with the county, I wouldn't even put it past Arnebeck et al to try matching the signature cards from voter registration forms with the poll books, signature by signature, in a county that they feel is highly likely to be tainted.

If the poll books are fishy in a county with no paper trail, that just might be the leverage that Arnebeck can use to successfully impound and inspect the machines.

Gina

[me b zola]

11. The down fall of evil is almost always arrogance

They will be exposed.

[proudbluestater]

38. At the hearing, that's exactly where they said the hack was...

the TABULATOR!!!

[Higans]

39. Thats exactly right. catch them with there hands in the cookie jar.

It doesn't matter who we vote for, and it never did. The machines with out paper trails are what the hackers are using to control everything. the government will never let an election reform bill pass. they will keep using a computer to steal our voice forever. here is how I know this.

John Kerry won the election. the 14th amendment of the constitution clearly states that if a portion of the population is disenfranchised, each state will have it's electorate reduced proportionate to the amount of disenfranchisement. This applies to all 50 states. The People who have been disenfranchised is any one who used a paperless voting machine. the people who used machines that had a paper trail could have their votes recounted if necessary. The people who used Paperless machines could not have their votes recounted. Once the data is uploaded to the central tabulator, it is gone. there is just a select few people in control of the central tabulator. they have the liberty to decide the fate of every election. I'm talking Presidential, Senate, the house of representatives, the governors, even the mayors. in essence two or three people have taken the 14th amendment right to vote from the entire Human population.

If Kerry had any balls at all this is the argument he would use.

The Senator contends that the use of DRE voting without an audit-able paper record recording the intent of the voter denies these voters the right to vote and violates Section 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution and standards for fair and transparent elections. According to Section Two of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution, the Senator argues that the representation for the states using DRE voting without audit-able paper records be reduced by the proportion of the population of these states.

*Using the proportion of counties using DRE voting (given by
http://www.thestandard.com/movabletype/datadigest/archi... ),
rounding up to the nearest whole number, disqualifies the following numbers of electoral votes for the following states:

Alabama, 1;
Arkansas, 1;
Colorado, 1;
Delaware, 3;
Florida, 7;
Georgia, 15;
Indiana, 6;
Iowa, 2;
Kansas, 1;
Kentucky, 8;
Louisiana, 2;
Maryland, 10;
Michigan, 1;
Mississippi, 1;
New Jersey, 12;
New Mexico, 5;
North Carolina, 6;
Ohio, 2;
Pennsylvania, 3;
South Carolina, 7;
Tennessee, 6;
Texas, 2;
Virginia, 5;
West Virgina, 1;
Wyoming, 1

Note that California voters in counties using DRE voting had the right to alternatively use paper ballots. Since this does not deny any voters the right to have their votes counted, California retains all of its 55 electoral votes.

This disqualification of electoral votes reduces the total of qualified electoral votes by 109, leaving a total number of qualified electoral votes of 429. This number reduces the majority to 215 electoral votes.

Therefore, the presidential candidates receive the following qualified electoral votes:

Bush/Cheney... AL, 8; AK, 3; AZ, 10; AR, 5; CO, 8; FL, 20; ID, 4; IN, 5; IA,
5; KS, 5; LA, 7; MS, 5; MO, 11; MT, 3; NE, 5; NV, 5; NC, 9; ND, 3; OH, 18;
OK, 7; SC, 1; SD, 3; TN, 5; TX, 32; UT, 5; VA, 8; WV, 4; WY, 2

Kerry/Edwards... CA, 55; CT, 7; DC, 3; HI, 4; IL, 21; ME, 4; MA, 12; MI, 16;
MN, 10; NH, 4; NJ, 3; NY, 31; OR, 7; PA, 18; RI, 4; VT, 3; WA, 11; WI, 10

Thusly counted, the electoral college gives Bush/Cheney 206 electoral votes and gives Kerry/Edwards 223 electoral votes, giving Kerry/Edwards a majority and the presidency of the United States.

* The proportion of counties using DRE voting without a paper record to the total counties of each state does not necessarily reflect the true proportion of denied voters, but lacking data for the total votes cast for each state with DRE voting I had no alternative. I would suggest that using the actual proportion of votes cast with DRE to the total votes cast in each state for disqualifying electoral votes would result in the same winner.

My calculations were correct. If the representation in Congress falls, so do the number of electoral votes, according to Article Two, Section One.

"Each State shall appoint, in such Manner as the Legislature thereof may direct, a Number of Electors, equal to the whole Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress..."
(emphasis added)


"But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state."


COMMON SENSE would tell you that equal protection means having all votes counted. BUT in Bush v. Gore the SC twisted the notion to suit its purposes just to install dubya in office. As Scalia bizarrely interpreted equal protection, it means having all votes counted in the same way with the same standards. It seems to me that Bush v. Gore actually supports your case since there are different standards for counting electronic votes and paper ballots.


The DRE machines without paper trails, when combined with the easily
compromised tabulation software, makes auditing the vote impossible. If you can't verify the votes when irregularities show problems with the tally, this effectively denies the right to vote of the portion of the population forced to use these machines. To this fact there is no argument.

Section Two of The Fourteenth Amendment is clear. Section One of Article Two of the Constitution is clear...

"...Number of Senators and Representatives to which the State may be entitled in the Congress..."

The Senate of the new Congress will count the votes. The DRE machines make a true count impossible, thereby effectively denying citizens of their right to vote. We haven't even figured in disproportionate number of voting machines, "lost" voter registrations, surreptitiously denied absentee ballots, voting place misdirection and a whole slew of other well-documented dirty tricks favoring the incumbent. Therefore, this situations changes the representation entitled to the States in the new Congress. Of course, I can't speak for the process by which the Congress would depose Representatives or how long this would take. However, the situation does change the number of electoral votes entitled to each State in this election.

I admit this is all a legal quagmire, but it has (constitutionally) legal merit. It also avoids issues involved in a recount which the DRE machines make impossible.

Would it fly? I don't know. I imagine it would cause quite the scene. Could the threat of losing seats lead the States to rectify obvious problems in the electoral process? Could the threat of giving up seats lead Senators and Representatives to pressure Pres. Bush to concede?

Difficulties aside, could this scenario offer the only true means for saving Democracy? You decide.


Please see full discussion here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

If Kerry does not jump on this issue, and use it to spear head election reform, we the Humans will never again have the right to vote. because the Main Stream Media is controlled by the Government, they do every thing they can to hide this information. they sing the population to sleep with stories of Scott Peterson, or a puppy down a well. they will never admit that they took our rights from us.

Arnold will be president in 08 and no matter how any one votes it will not matter. Arnold will continue Bush's pattern of global domination. he will continue dropping bombs on defenseless populations. the perpetual war will never stop.

Humans will never be able to truly explore their universe and science if we keep pumping our money into killing people. If there was ever an issue that needed to be on any ballot for any human to vote on, we need to have the right to vote yes or no on war.

Now you tell me, should I give up? should I forget this information?
should I accept the Machine as my ruler? I have figured out how to break their little game. Election reform is the only way to get our voice back but they won't let us talk about it.

EQUAL PROTECTION CLAUSE - Portion of the Fourteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution that prohibits discrimination by state government institutions. The clause grants all people "equal protection of the laws," which means that the states must apply the law equally and cannot give preference to one person or class of persons over another.

http://www.lectlaw.com/def/e027.htm

The Words of Dr. Martin L. King Jr.


I have a dream that one day this nation will rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed; we hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created equal.

I have a dream,

that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

I have a dream,

that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice.

I have a dream,

that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day, down in Alabama, with its vicious racists, with its governor having his lips dripping with the words of interposition and nullification; one day right down in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.

I have a dream today!

I have a dream that one day every valley shall be exalted, and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain and the crooked places will be made straight and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh shall see it together.

The words of Dr. Martin L. King Jr.
for full text: http://www.toptags.com/aama/voices/speeches/speech1.htm

If we the Humans don't stand up now for election reform, this computer may control us forever. Should I give up????

This is the scope of what we are dealing with is it a battle that we can ever win? Do you ever want to have Kids? that is what this is about. I want our children to have a voice. I want our children to have an education. I don't want our children to be forced to kill Humans. if the elections are not reformed I don't want to bring children into this world at all. I suspect that there are a lot of people who feel this way.

This is why the administration is spending 3.5 million dollars to teach Abstinence only sex ed. this is why they are trying to outlaw abortion. this is why they are trying to out law homosexuality. They are farming us. farming fresh bodies to drive their war machine. this is why they produce violent video games they are programing our children to kill each other.

Should I give up??? Now that I have finally opened my eyes and Witnessed reality first hand should I give up????? You say the word, and I will forget this issue, but don't expect me to ever want children. I am sorry that this is the way I feel, but I can't bare the thought that my children will be slaves just as I am.

[bowens43]

2. This isn't just about who won or didn't win,

it's about fraud. None of the results in Ohio should be considered to be valid until they are thoroughly investigated.

[noamnety]

3. It's a matter of accountability

We cannot prove which way all the votes were intended to go, because of auditless systems.

We can prove things like paper ballots not being counted properly, or precinct totals being tampered with at the county level. People responsible for that activity need to exposed, indicted, jailed, and (in my ideal world) not allowed to have anything to do with elections ever again, but that last part never seems to happen.

[Merlot]

5. We need to prove

that an auditless system is not accountable, and therefore wrong, unethical, and potentially illegal.

[Robroy]

7. One more thing..

A presidential candidate's state campaign manager/chairperson should never, and I mean NEVER, be in charge of the vote counting in that state. That cost us Florida in 2000 and now Ohio in 2004.

[Merlot]

16. That is a HUGE conflict of interst

Why does noone see it as such?

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[meganmonkey]

10. That is a good question - we really need a reVOTE

At the rally and symposium in Columbus Saturday, a few of the speakers alluded to the fact that only a reVOTE would let us know what the true intentions of the voters were. It's not just a matter of the electronic ballots and counting machines, it's also the people who never cast a vote because they couldn't wait in line all day (esp. in minority/democrat precincts) and the people who were given provisional ballots rather than being sent to the right precinct - so they thought their vote would count, but it wouldn't because they were in the wrong place.

on edit: I don't mean to suggest that I think a recount is pointless - I imagine some discrepencies will be revealed and it'll help the overall investigation get legs.

[me b zola]

12. Agreed...

If a revote is good enough for the Ukrainians, backed by bushco, then it is good enough for us!!!

[googly]

21. I have a hunch it is unconstitutional to revote in presidential election.

[rzemanfl]

24. Constitution

The Supreme Court decides what is constitutional, but right now they would deadlock 4 to 4 unless they can get Rehnquist to drag himself in from what is probably his deathbed. The Sixth Circuit is 8 to 7 Republican, four of the Judges were appointed by our so-called "President."

[AndrewClarke]

13. Your question is moot

Ohio has a paper trail.

[meganmonkey]

14. See my post #10 - paper trail isn't good enough

especially if we use the same machines to recount them.

[AndrewClarke]

25. I understood your point . . .

. . . but that's a separate point from the question in the original thread.

[meganmonkey]

15. Dupe - self delete

[liberal43110]

17. No, all of Ohio does NOT have a paper trail

Ohio uses several different technologies, mostly punch card ballots, which is indeed something of a paper trail. For one example, Franklin County, which includes Columbus, uses an old-style touch-screen machine with absolutely NO paper trail. There is no record of an individual voter's selections, just a total for each candidate on each machine at the end of the day. Keep in mind that this is the county that includes Gahanna and the wacky extra 4000-or-so votes mysteriously given to Bush. No paper trail.

[karlrschneider]

18. Exactly, and your correct point seems to be lost from a lot of folks!

BTW welcome to DU
:toast:

[liberal43110]

20. Thanks!

:beer:

[AndrewClarke]

27. I stand corrected

It seems there are seven counties with E-voting. Here's a map:
http://verifiedvoting.org/verifier/map.php?&topic_string=5std&state=Ohio

[Time for change]

35. Yes, but

the good majority of Ohio counties do have paper trails. So, if the exit polls are correct or even close to correct (The final exit polls had Kerry winning Ohio by 4.2%), and if even a large portion of the fraud occurred in those counties that have paper trails, then a full hand recount should show that.

Also, I did an analysis of voting machines by county, and that analysis suggests that if the exit polls are correct, most of the fraud took place with "Triad Government" machines, which use punch cards, and therefore should have a paper trail.

[roseBudd]

37. The majority of votes in OH were punch card, the punch cards are

a paper trail. Votes+Undervotes+Overvotes+Absentee+unused ballots should equal the total of punch card ballots the precinct received.

Dayton Legal Blank provided all the punch card ballots in the state of Ohio.

[trudyco]

19. I just think they covered the ballot card trail somehow

Ohio was a battleground state. They would expect the chance for a recount might happen. I hope the poll books are examined not only for numbers but for if the people are legitimate.

How did they do it?
DId they have people go to the wrong machine in multiprecinct locations? But that would show up in a recount. Did they have people punch their cards incorrectly? How would they get around the precinct number - somebody would need to notice at recount time that the order is different from what it was on election day. Could they doctor the precinct number after the fact? Ink that disappears hours later and then they rewrite to the precinct they want it to be later (in privacy)? Could they swap out whole batches of ballots?

I just think they would have taken care of the ballots, too.

Hmm.
trudyco

[rzemanfl]

22. Recount

I read today that under Ohio law they start by recounting 3% of the ballots in each county. Only if there is a "problem" with those is there a full recount. So if the Republicans get to cherry pick the 3%-then there goes the damned recount.

[AndrewClarke]

23. The rules require . . .

. . . that precincts totalling at least 3% of the vote to be chosen randomly. No cherry-picking allowed.

[rzemanfl]

26. Thanks.

The article I read didn't mention randomness, nor did it describe what constituted a "problem." What is a "problem," is it one incorrect vote or what?

[AndrewClarke]

28. A problem . . .

. . . is when the hand count and the machine count in those precincts aren't equal. If that happens, the county has to count all of the ballots by hand. Otherwise, they can run the final 97% through the machines.

[AndrewClarke]

29. I forgot to include . . .

. . . this link to the procedures:

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/news/guide/recount.pdf

[rzemanfl]

31. Thanks again.

I have little faith in recounts. I am from Florida and remember 2000 all too well.

[KaliTracy]

30. I wonder

Why Blackwell, who was pushing for e-voting actually stopped? One first glance it seems that to merge precincts in anticipation of a "quicker" system, and then decide not to use the machines, and not change the precincts back was the plan all along, if one wants to assume he was mainly looking to suppress votes via long lines. But some other things might need to be considered.

1. Did they only "pilot" the e-voting machines in democratic counties in the primaries? My mother -- in Toledo -- said they were piloting them there, but they went back to the opti-scan for the election, deciding that they didn't want to "spend the money" or by another account -- that "there wasn't accountability" with e-machines. In the republican district I live in, we did not pilot e-machines, though we use punch card ballots.

2. Could it be that in this experiment/pilot they thought (*whoever they are*) that if the entire state did go to machines before the election, and then problems/glitches occured that there would be *more* scrutiny since a new way of voting was adopted?

3. If so... did they (again, whoever *they* are) then decide that to win this election, other means would be necessary -- which could be why such a flurry of legislation and challenges by Blackwell to things like paper weight and provisional ballots, or what-not.

A great majority of the machines in Ohio are still punch card or opti-scan. Given that in the Letter to Blackwell by the Judiciary Committee there were a lot of anomalies with votes going for obscure candidates, a recount would be a good place to start -- and the 93,000 "spoiled" votes could then be counted, too, though I don't know if by law if the 3% random machine recount supercedes the ability to count the 93,000 spoiled votes.

[Time for change]

34. I received information from Voters Unite

regarding a county by county tabulation of what voting machines were used in Ohio. Then I analyzed the county by county discrepancies between the Kerry 2004 vote and the Gore 2000 vote.

The result of this analysis showed that the bulk of the discrepancy in Bush's favor in the 2004 election occurred in counties that used punch cards for voting, using a machine made by a company called Triad Government. What this means is that if the Ohio exit polls are correct or anywhere near correct (They showed Kerry winning by 4.2% in Ohio), then it is likely that the bulk of the fraud occurred in counties using the Triad government machines.

How they did it, who knows? I don't have an outstanding knowledge of these machines, but since they were punch card machines they should produce a paper trail. Maybe the computer programs used to count these votes were fraudulent. If so, a hand recount should show that Kerry won.

[Vote4Kerry]

36. A recount might expose this nice little scam in Ohio..

Somebody posted this earlier on DU, so I am reposting:

-----------------
If you voted for Kerry in Parma 8D and the ballot was read in Parma 8E, you voted for a disqualified spot.

If you voted for Kerry in Parma 8E and the ballot was read in Parma 8D, you got Bush.

Now I don't know if these preticular precincts voted at the same polling place or not, but multiple precincts at one location seems to have been common. Someone who knows Ohio streets could check the precincts which voted together. Some combinations of swapped ballots will yeild votes for the disqualified space.


http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/BOE/ballots/PDF/PARMA08E.pdf

http://boe.cuyahogacounty.us/BOE/ballots/PDF/PARMA08D.pdf

[roseBudd]

40. I believe Kerry votes were switched to Bush votes in certain counties

that used punch card ballots read by Triad tabulators. We need to find out if it is possible for counties to rid themselves of the evidence (kerry punched ballots) and obtain the new needed evidence (an equal number of unvoted and unaccounted for ballots that could then be manually voted for Bush using a punch card machine and a stylus as a 10x loupe can show a card fraudulently voted without a stylus).

Dayton Legal Blank sold all the punch card ballots in the state of Ohio.