NY Times on Arnebeck's suit and OH

[understandinglife]

As Questions Keep Coming, Ohio Certifies Its Vote Count
By JAMES DAO and ALBERT SALVATO

Published: December 7, 2004

<snip>

"And on Wednesday, lawyers from the Alliance for Democracy, a group based in Massachusetts that advocates fair elections, plan to ask the Ohio Supreme Court to throw out the election results and declare Mr. Kerry the winner. Officials with the group, which is filing the request on behalf of 25 Ohio voters, said they would be able to demonstrate widespread irregularities and fraud in the heavily Republican counties surrounding Cincinnati.

"We will allege in the complaint that the result should have been Kerry winning," said Clifford Arnebeck, a lawyer in Columbus, Ohio, who is co-chairman of the alliance."

<snip>
Link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/07/national/07ohio.html

+++++++++++++
So, he's timing it with Rep Conyers' "forum"

Peace.

"Did Bush Know?"

[renaissanceguy]

1. Hopeful

but how likely is it that that will happen? I mean, if we want all votes to count, we'd have to count Ohio's votes.

----------
Buy liberal and progressive buttons, bumperstickers, & shirts at www.cafepress.com/liberalissues

[meganmonkey]

12. The GLIBs have filed for a recount in Ohio

http://www.votecobb.org/

And have raised the money for it. So it should happen.

The problem is, if the fraud is on the level it seems to be (inside the computers/counting machines) a recount can't count votes that have no record.

[John Q. Citizen]

20. Only one county in Ohio is "paperless," I believe.

The rest are punch cards and optical scanners which of course have a paper trail.

[meganmonkey]

21. If the recount is done by hand, it will be more accurate

but if the same (Diebold & ES&S) machines are used to count the ballots again...we may not get very different numbers than teh original count.

[John Q. Citizen]

22. That's true. If the problem is in the tabulation machines then

the swing towards Kerry will be relatively small in the event of a machine recount. I bet you that even if all they do is a machine recount that the numbers change to favor Kerry.

It seems to me that with the statistical and sworn testimony evidence of voter suppression, strange 3rd party numbers, the down ballot vote anomalies, (OH Supreme court) the whole pattern of SOS decisions favoring bush, all the other dirty tricks, The Warren Co. lockdown, and the political theft of sensitive information, that what we need is a complete precinct by precinct audit of the Ohio vote.

This audit should include hand recounts, machine inspections,(software and machanical) voter sign-in inspections, log and election office memos and other data, etc.

We will see.....

[meganmonkey]

23. That's where the lawsuits will come in handy

hopefully, if it comes to that, we will get the machines and anomalies investigated. All we can do now (as far as the recount anyway) is hope...and wait...

[berniew1]

Don't think he has info to overturn election without full recount & audit

What's he talking about. I don't think he has enough documentation of irregularities or fraud to overturn the election without a full recount, including audit of equipment. I think a full recount and audit would show Kerry won. But I don't think they will allow a full recount and audit under fair rules to happen. Anyone know something to the contrary? If some major fraud evidence doesn't show up soon, the only chance is for a serious well monitored full recount.

[meganmonkey]

44. Please see the second part of my post #27

Cliff Arnebeck and others are gathering a LOT of evidence, and much of it may not come out in the recount. The recount may not accomplish our goal of getting Kerry in the WH (although it sure would be nice if it did!). I was at the rally in Columbus Saturday, and the symposium that night - which was far more educational - this is going to be along struggle, essentially we would need a full reVOTE of Ohio to find out what the voters' true intentions were. Many of the irregularities won't be proven by the partial recount - and to get a full recount/audit approved and completed in time for Jan. 6 would be virtually impossible unless a 'smoking gun' suddenly appears. Even that wouldn't count the voters who were never able to vote because someone destroyed their registration, or because their ballots were 'lost', or who cast provisional ballots in the wrong precinct instead of being told where they were supposed to go, or because there weren't enough working machines in their highly minority/democratic precinct and they weren't able to wait 6 or 10 hours in line...And that's how a lot of the fraud/racial disenfranchisement occurred.

This may take awhile. We have to be patient on the legal end. But we have to be LOUD AND OBNOXIOUS on the activism side of things.

:bounce:

[trudyco]

34. I thought I saw of top 10 counties

Franklin, Mahonig and Lake used electronic. Don't know if any of them had a paper trail.

[Wordie]

40. FYI here's a chart on that (you have to scroll down a bit)

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/equipment_machines03.html

[John Q. Citizen]

47. Here's a map of all Ohio counties and voting technology used

http://verifiedvoting.org/verifier/map.php?&topic_string=5std&state=Ohio

[tsuki]

25. Question? If it takes a month+ to certify the election, how can the

election be recounted in 7 days. I feel so despondent.

[meganmonkey]

27. Well, part of why it took so long to certify the original vote

was simply because Blackwell is a dirty bastard. He understands the time frame and is manipulating it. Those challenging the vote are going to try to extend the period of time before the electors are certified - or whatever it's called that's happening on Dec. 13. It shouldn't take a whole month to recount, but it will certainly take longer than a week. Whether or not that time frame gets extended, the recount should be completed. I don't know what will happen if the electors are already committed to their Bush votes and then the recount shows a Kerry win.

The MOST IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER IS THIS (IMHO):

This is about much more than a Kerry WH. This is about the integrity of our democracy - our entire voting system needs to be examined and overhauled - with national standards and local control. We need non-partisan electoral officials and boards. Evgen if Kerry doesn't get in, THIS FIGHT IS NOT OVER. We can't act all surprised in 2006 & 2008 when our candidates lose AGAIN over suspicious circumstances AGAIN (and again and again).

So please don't get despondent! We may have a long fight in front of us! DON'T GIVE UP!!!

[corbett]

29. Rumsfeld's Long Slog

While I am FIRMLY CONVINCED that Kerry can and will win Ohio and be inaugurated in chilly Washington in January, meganmonkey is correct to point out that the stakes are even higher than a Kerry White House. This truly is the electoral equivalent of Rumsfeld's "Long Slog." If we don't fix it now, the problems will exacerbate in 2006 and 2008 and Democrats won't have a chance without a coup.

[Wordie]

38. You are absolutely, 100%, completely right that its more than a Kerry win.

But be that as it may, I keep wishing Kerry somehow could flip it. Or, more precisely, that it could be flipped for him, because there is no way he could get out in front of this visibly.

[corbett]

28. That's Why Blackwell Stalled

Federal law says that Blackwell should not choose his electors while a recount is underway, especially a STATEWIDE recount. However, that law is open to interpretation. At this point, the recount is important for the January 6 round, when the election is challenged in open Congressional session. It would be wonderful if it were completed before Ohio chooses its electors but missing that date is not the end of the world.

[meganmonkey]

31. Thank you for clarifying the time frame

It's hard to keep it all straight! I knew there was some loophole extending it until Jan 6 but I couldn't open that file in my brain

:P

[Wordie]

41. I think you are referring to the "safe harbor" and there are some legal

scholars who think that because of the way that OH law is written, the safe harbor deadline may not apply.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=120959&mesg_id=120959&page=

[helderheid]

43. If they cannot do a recount

then doesn't that decertify the votes??? Isn't it illegal for our elections to not be transparent and verifiable? I thought there was some law on that. Can't we bring that up?

[meganmonkey]

46. It is being brought up

I wish I had all my (ducks)links in a row, but I am sure that either Arnebeck or the GLIBs themselves are contestingfor an extension of the Elector certification beyond the 13th, since Blackwell purposely waited until the last minute to certify the original count. Probably for the very reason you mentioned - that our election needs to be transparent and verifiable. The recount will go forward, no question about that.

[roguevalley]

2. BWAHAHAHA! If the Ukraine for godsakes can do it, we can too.

[fearnobush]

3. Wow, the MSM gives us a paragraph hidden with in the tripe.

Below is an example of why the MSM is fake news:

"Democratic officials, walking a fine line between their angry liberal base and centrist voters"

Why are we all just a bunch in an "angry liberal base"? What about all those centrist voters who are just as pissed. I for one know more pissed centrists than pissed liberals. FU NYT's

We need a real media and we need one now!

[understandinglife]

4. Well, a week ago; hell, even after Rep Conyers...

....announced his 'forum' the 'msm' were (and, largely still) remain mute.

The message is simple. In a franchise of democracy the PEOPLE do the heavy lifting; the dude's with eye-shades and pencils (or pda's) do the record keeping.

We will save our franchise if we have the will and persistence to never allow another 6 Jan 2001 happen again.

That's it. By 6 Jan 2005, we the PEOPLE, must have forced a halt, an investigation and a legitimate, equitable vote.

Otherwise we are at fault; not the bloody folk who write about and take pictures of us.

We must make this happen.

Peace.

"Did Bush Know?"

[Not_Without_A_Fight]

7. Too right fearnobush!!!

[Celebration]

11. I'm Centrist

AND VERY ANGRY!! This election angers me so much I am almost about to buy into the left wing arguments of corporate control of everything.

[googly]

17. I am a hardcore centrist democrat and I am angry that....

>> we use electronic machines with no varifiable trail

>> we allow long lines at voting booths inspite of all the hitech available

>> we allow people to vote without proof of citizenship

>> we have no centralized data base to check multiple voting by the
same person

>> we have different rules and schedules for certifying votes in different states, for a FEDERAL election

Congress better get their ass in gear and do something quick, else
I am voting against ALL INCUMBENTS next election.

[glitch]

19. Even the centrist Republicans are angry - ask DUer MarkusQ

once again NYT is a day late and a dollar short. The people have to lead everything.
At least now we have a vehicle (thank you Gore for the internets)!

[RaulVB]

5. Now the NY Times doing some CYA, ha, ha (n/t)

[understandinglife]

6. Yeap; and by Thursday they'll be acting like....

...they've been out-front defending the franchise and applying all their Constitutionally-empowered muscle to the wheel....and, we should all say 'right on, dude, go for it' because what matters is that We The People use these massive transgressions of 2000-2004 to spur us to create, an indeed, more perfect union.

And, WE will.

Peace.

"Did Bush Know?"

[jamboi]

8. Great stuff!

[Kellis]

10. I agree

ANy coverage is good coverage.

:kick:

[MercutioATC]

9. Gee, why didn't I think of that? We'll just ask them to let Kerry win...

This whole "voting" thing is silly, anyway...

[oc2002]

13. Why did Blackwell take more than a month to certify the Ohio election?

Considering that it does not take more than a week or two in most states.

[googly]

16. Duh...it cuts down on time to recount & litigate!!!

[Scout1071]

33. Interesting Point

Is Ohio the last state to certify? If so, could this potentially be used as evidence of MORE VOTER SUPPRESSION? Not allowing for the count? I know there are alot of informed people on this board....where can I find out what states still have to certify? Other than the situation in Washington?

[operafred]

14. we MUST win, folks. we MUST

it may not happen overnight, because of all the paperwork, stonewalling and other hurdles, but truth is clearly on our side, so we MUST win! public awareness and public pressure needs to grow and grow and grow like a tidal wave and become unstoppable and wash away untruth, fraud, lies, distortions and so on.

[Razorback_Democrat]

15. YeeeeeeeeHawwwwwwwwwwwww!

the door has been opened a crack!!!

Let's kick the door down!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111

[Mastiff]

18. The "truth being on our side" didn't help when Bush stole the 2000

election. Nor did it help in 2002 in Georgia.
This time it is just too egregious. It must not stand. We need more than the truth. We need to convince everyone it is the truth.

[spotbird]

42. That is so true.

We let them pull 2K, 2002, why wouldn't they think they could pull this one off.

[corbett]

32. We Must And We Will Win

In addition to the overwhelming evidence in Arnebeck's and Jackson's possession, what will make the difference now when we failed in 2000 consists of two key parts:

1) We were ready for a repeat of 2000; and

2) We have virtual venues such as this one.

If things start to go a bit sideways between now and Christmas week, we'll have 10 good days to organize hundreds of thousands of protestors, including disenfranchised Ohio voters who live within a day's drive of DC, to descend upon the Capitol and protest outside while Representatives and Senators challenge the election inside.

Don't forget, Kerry and many of his supporters know a few things about rallies on the national mall!

[RaulVB]

24. Is HOT, and about to explode (n/t)

[politicasista]

26. Not good news...

http://www.commongroundcommonsense.org/index.php?showtopic=9111

[corbett]

30. They Haven't Seen Evidence Like This Before

That thread is accurate but overly narrow. As Jesse Jackson accurately pointed out in his major press conference/rally on the Sunday after Thanksgiving, the Ohio recount/challenge isn't just about fair elections. This is about civil rights. It's about Medgar Evers. It's about Nelson Mandela. It's about very broad issues of classism and racism. When the Ohio Supreme court see's Arnebeck's evidence, it won't be so easy for them to turn a blind eye. However, even if they do, a loss there is NOT the end of the game. The Congressional challenge remains behind it and, while more difficult, that is another strategically sound avenue for installing Kerry in the White House.

[lonestarnot]

35. Well I say to that bad news....If Kerry actually found to be President and

something not done, a war like no other will errupt right here in the United States.

[Wordie]

36. Did he file his suit as a "contest"??? Because there is OH precedent for

a presidential contest to be settled judicially!!!

See this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=120959&mesg_id=121209

[understandinglife]

37. We will know, according to the AfD and NY Times article...

...tomorrow, as that is when the suit is supposed to be filed.

Peace.

"Did Bush Know?"

[Wordie]

39. Thanks for the clarification. I don't have a NYT account. n/t

[Clark2008]

45. Yeah, but will the television media

cover this now (Olbermann exception rule applied here)?

There was NOTHING on the news this morning and it's not a big secret.