The terror arrests are a VICTORY...

[ClusterFreak]

...and not proof - according to those who carry water for the American (or Canadian) right wing - that Canada simply swings the immigration door wide open, and lets those who wish to sew seeds of terrorist destruction here, to do so unchecked.

That is a crock of shit. Canadian law enforcement and intelligence agencies surveilled these terror suspects for two years, caught them, and fucked up their elaborate plans, before they had a chance to hurt anybody. I am so proud of C.S.I.S., the Mounties, the O.P.P. and the Durham Regional Police, it's hard to even put it into words.

God bless each and every person involved in stopping this sickening plot cold in it's tracks.
:applause:

[MrPrax]

1. Wait a Minute...

This happened wtih 19 people a couple of years ago regarding 'plans' to attack Pickering. It turned out to be bogus--no charges and they all were released.

Besides Hooper was just at the Senate committee testifying about this and then right on cue, by the end of the news cycle and just for the weekend, there are these busts, which as you said, they have been monitoring for two years.

I also noticed in the TorStar coverage--their reporter made a point of mentioning that the 'bag of fertilizer' on display was for illustrative purposes and NOT from the raid...why would the cops do that? We know what a bag of fertizlier looks like and unless it's evidence, why use the visual-aid to frighten people...

Dollars to a Tim Bit that most of these are released and the crimes of 'ring leaders' will be weak.

[ClusterFreak]

2. So...Harper orchestrated the whole thing?

Come on.

I loathe the man, but if he has the power to get Canadian law enforcement and intelligence, right up to the highest level, to do his bidding on this one, I'll eat my hat.

[MrPrax]

3. What the hell?

You don't even know if it's true...did you read my post?

Shit, the whole bunch are proven liars--you immediately believe this crap?

I read through every account--I don't see anything tangible, no details, nothing...except a dog and pony show days after the head of the agency was scaring us with 'homegrown' terrorists and wallah! they find some...

Jeez sorry if I am mistrustful of these people but I am sure some of the faux left were crowing about the Pickering 19 as well...ended up looking like war-mongers who were more than happy to dispense with their freedom at the drop of a hat...

gimme a break...

[ClusterFreak]

5. No, why don't you give ME a break.

Believe what you will, I'll do the same. I simply don't hold the view that Canada's spy and security agency, in cooperation with our national police force, Ontario's police force, and a local police service, all got together in one room somewhere with Harper and/or some of his gang, and made a blood pact to strip Canadians of their freedom.

You don't know it ISN'T true these guys arrested last night were plotting bad shit, and I don't know it is. I simply believe it may very well be, and if it is, I'm glad as hell this raid went down.

[MrPrax]

7. Oh I do apologize...

for erring on the caution side of not pinning medals on the chest of a security service being run by a dangerous Tory gub'mint or running about DU feeling nationalistic pride that our fascists are better than theirs...

Shit...they must spin this stuff in Ontario differently than they do here, I swear.

[ClusterFreak]

14. Ok, I get it...

...Harper is PM = CSIS is corrupt to the bone. And by extension I suppose the Mounties, the OPP, the local cops in Durham Region...they're all part of the plot too. Yeah no doubt they all would have just chucked the findings of their investigation, then Steve was elected, told them to make these arrests, and so they did.

Check.

And one more thing...let's leave childish regionalist antipathies out of it, hmmmm?

[MrPrax]

18. Sorry I know more than you...

I was going to post up dozens of cases where your Boys came up a little short...(and damn it was going to include satanic ritual abuse in Saskatchewan childcare and a funny story about how folks wanted to really believe it)--but why bother, your informed and you know most of them anyway.

The part I don't get is that you have no problem seeing a political agenda when it comes to the US, but you seem to think it is not possible here? Why not? As far a conspiracy involving hundreds of people--that's nuts.

In militarized hierarchies like law enforcement and intelligence work, you don't need hundreds, you only need a few at the top--the rest follow orders out of necessity and professionalism. That's what is going on in the US with Chimpy and his scurvy crew...a few at the top and the rest follow.

Sorry if I want the opinions of the court and not the police, who do these shows for the media all the time.

It's a free country for now and Yeah if you want to slap a 'Support Your Local Police' bumpersticker on your truck--you go right ahead. You are probably right, anyhow.

[ClusterFreak]

19. So, a few people in these "militarized hierarchies"....

...are going to arrest 17 people, 15 of which are Canadian citizens, claim they were in possession of three tonnes of a bomb-making chemical, charge them with crimes relating to plotting terrorist acts against their fellow citizens, not because they had amassed two years worth of evidence to warrant such arrests and such charges, but instead because Stevie told them to do it? These "few" people, as you see it, are all sympathizers to Harper's neocon agenda, and are just gonna follow orders...out of "necessity and professionalism"? Professionalism? We're gonna railroad a group of young Muslim-Canadians out of necessity and professionalism. Right.

Oh yeah...because Mounties in Saskatchewan have fucked up in the past...and don't forget Milgaard....ergo...yesterday's terror roundup was a crock too. Because there are incidents in Canada's history where there were malicious prosecutions, trumped up evidence, or whatever...these 17 arrests are bogus, and quite simply pure politics.

I too want the opinions of the court, but we can't find out what they are until a case is brought to court. And that begins with the police.

Oh well, I guess that's the way they spin things in Ontario.

[CHIMO]

4. Hope You Have

A tasty hat.

Looks like a tight rope walk that is following the guy down south. You push and push and push and take advantage of the things that come your way. But it seems like the elasticity has run out and it is hard to believe things even when they are in print. I remember when it was said that people in Moscow knew how to interpret the newspapers.

Goodale meets with RCMP on income trust case
Updated Tue. Jan. 3 2006 11:26 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Finance Minister Ralph Goodale met Tuesday with RCMP investigators to talk about the income trust affair.

"Well, obviously it's not a normal part of the campaign, but it's a circumstance that has to be dealt with, and I'm very glad and happy to deal with it because I'm absolutely confident of my position," Goodale said from his campaign office in Regina.

However, Goodale appeared flustered when asked if other cabinet ministers were in the loop of his Nov. 23 announcement on income trusts.

"There where ministers that obviously were involved in the discussion because they simply had to be," he said.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060103/ELXN_goodale_060103/20060103?s_name=election2006

Sorbara feels "pretty damn good" now that he's been stricken from warrants

TORONTO (CP) - Former Ontario finance minister Greg Sorbara said Thursday he feels "pretty damn good" about a ruling that has removed his name from the search warrants that forced his resignation seven months ago.

Sorbara had been fighting to clear his name since the warrants were issued last October, and had consistently maintained he did nothing wrong.

In an interview from his home, Sorbara expressed relief at the court ruling issued Thursday that effectively erased his name from the warrants.

"I'm thrilled," he said.

http://www.recorder.ca/cp/National/060518/n0518139A.html

One's inability to be skeptical of things doesn't make them right. I think that we have to wait and see what the evidence is. And how this has been allowed to go on for two years with 3 tons of explosives?

[ClusterFreak]

6. Setting aside your condescending brush-off of my comments for now...

...and your muddled opening paragraph...I choose to believe the Mounties - especially the Mounties - aren't a party to some grand Harper-ian scheme to scare Canadians into giving up some of their freedom. If that demonstrates "one's inability to be skeptical", then so be it.

[CHIMO]

9. Hope That

You aren't close to a red barn.

If you think that your Mounties aren't subject to orders as are all police forces then I guess that you need to have some lessons in how a government works.

[ClusterFreak]

10. Well, let's see...

Yep...I'm standing at a safe distance from a red barn and I've got my tasty hat.

If I had a tinfoil one like you, I'd be all set.

And if I need a civics lesson, I'll give you a shout.

[CHIMO]

11. Thanks

Maybe you could go back and read some of the references that I posted re the action of the police.

Being able to take data and string it together makes for intelligence.

You seem to be making acquisitions that are not warranted. You have rushed the judgment on the incident before any information has come out from the accused. One thing must signal a little bit of a question in all this is the involvement of the FBI.

[ClusterFreak]

12. Well, if you could string a sentence together that wasn't convoluted...

...as hell, maybe I would read those references. Cuz yeah, that might 'make for intelligence'. And I sure don't want to be accused of making unwarranted 'acquistions' either.

[CHIMO]

13. As They Say

You can bring a horse to water...

[ClusterFreak]

15. Good comeback.

[Hoping4Change]

21. In the same vein skepticism doesn't prove something to be wrong.

David Miller an avowed NDPer says he was advised of the investigation since its inception , he also said he was told the date the attack was to have happened but he declined to divulge it. Miller is no stooge.

You seem incredulous the investigation took two years. Dollars to donuts, you'd be up in arms if this was some fly by night operation.

Do you think the blowing up of Air India was just a figment of imagination? Do you think the government did the deed to discredit Sikhs?

[Jazz2006]

8. Are you referring to

the 2003 investigation by the immigration dept. and RCMP in which there were allegations about the group of men being a 'sleeper cell' etc?

If I recall correctly, in that case, those guys were actually arrested on immigration violations as they had all purchased fake resident documentation from some illegitimate business school in Ottawa, and some clearly overzealous investigators made mountains out of mole hills in trying to make out that they were terrorists with plans to blow up the Pickering plant, etc. The "evidence" that led to those specious accusations was quite ludicrous.

I think you may be incorrect, though, about the men not being charged and about them being released. I don't think any of them were ever charged with terror-related offences, but I think that most of them were held on immigration violations and nearly all of them were ultimately deported.

This investigation differs on its face from the 2003 one, as it appears to have begun specifically re: alleged terrorist activity/connections and not an immigration investigation which tangentially went into the terror possibility realm, and these people have, in fact, been charged with specific offences.

Of course, we have yet to see the evidence upon which these arrests were made, and we are unlikely to see it all for quite some time.

Still, 3 tonnes of ammonia nitrate and various explosive devices were recovered, and so far, this investigation appears to be on the up and up. I do not, generally speaking, trust police any further than I can throw them (edit: at least not without verification), but they don't always get it wrong, either. That said, I would not be surprised if the net was too widely cast - it often is - and that some of those currently being held will ultimately be released. Then, of course, there is always the possibility that they will be ultimately acquitted at trial, too. It will all depend on the evidence, which none of us has seen yet.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060603.wwarrants0603_3/BNStory/National/home

And about the photo of the bag of fertilizer, from all of the various news accounts online, it was specifically stated that it was for display purposes only (presumably because "three tonnes of ammonium nitrate, a commonly used fertilizer used to make explosives, were recovered by police, who say that’s three times the amount used in the bombing of a government building in Oklahoma that killed 168 people" and one 25 kg bag is a whole lot more convenient to photograph and a whole lot LESS frightening than photos of three tonnes of the stuff.

[MrPrax]

16. I read this stuff too?

The only information we can go on is that information by the cops...well I believe in democracy and so I'll wait for the courts?

But if you notice, this investigation started out of internet chatter (jeez I am surprised that Muslims might be a little annoyed with wanton US imperialism), it was co-ordinated with DHS with a couple of suspects the US already have on locked up and facing trial. Also involved a related 'gun-smuggler' who was originally stop at the border under a 'narcotics' watch, not a 'terror' watch or at least not that they are admitting.

Sure they got a bag of fertilizer--but why not a pic of the actual haul? They can't really call it at this point 'national security'? Was the Ammonium nitrate in their possession or was this a case where they had 'access'? Big difference, especially when the stuff can also be used for meth production.

Also it's 'meme' that bothers me..eariler in the week, they testified that we had to fear 'homegrown' terrorists--well later that week, they found a whole nest of them? Probably just a Co-ink-e-dink...the head of CSIS was out of the loop and had no idea that this investigation was going on, right?

Oh the other thing--just for speculation, but did anyone else see this story yesterday? The Taliban threatening Canada?

Congrats if it turns out that these are seriously fucked up people wanting to blow me up, but given the track record of all this stuff Moussari to the Buffalo Five (or Six depending which story you follow), to the fact most of the 'enemy combatants' being held at Gitmo are innocent and never charged--and these were 'terrorists' taken in theatre.

There's too much kool-aid drinking in all this nonsense, IMHO

[HEyHEY]

17. ALl but two are Canadians - most born here

So, anyone yelling about immigration is a dope.

[daleo]

20. I am withholding judgment until I see evidence introduced at a trial

I don't know, these sorts of cases often end up being full of holes.