Gun-toting soccer mom is shot dead

[Thickasabrick]

Source: Patriot News

Meleanie Hain, the pistol-carrying Lebanon mom who received national attention for taking a loaded gun to her daughter’s soccer game, was shot to death Wednesday night with her husband in an apparent murder-suicide, police said.

Hain, 31, and her husband, Scott, 33, were pronounced dead by Lebanon County Coroner Dr. Jeffrey Yocum shortly after 8:30 p.m. at their home at Second Avenue and East Grant Street, police said.

The couple’s three children were home at the time and were not injured, and are staying with relatives and friends, police said.

Autopsies were scheduled for Thursday, police said. No other details were available at press time.

Read more: http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2009/10/gun-toting_soccer_mom_is_shot.html

[hedgehog]

1. Poor kids.

[Born Free]

119. I agree, it's sad for the kids

We no longer subscribe to the Patriot News as in the past they have had their stories wrong, and we knew this because of personal involvement in the situation they reported. I know some will want to make this a gun control issue but at this point it really is a marital issue, that turned bad - especially for the children. Although they may have been mentally unstable, it doesn't mean all gun owners are unstable. It does prove the case the sheriff was correct in revoking the permit to carry the gun after the incident at the soccer game.

here is the lebanon Daily News version:

http://www.ldnews.com/lebanonnews/ci_13506791

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. Only one phrase comes to my mind:

Those who live by the sword, die by the sword.

This is a tragedy, for all concerned.

And I feel horrible for their children.

:(

[Arctic Dave]

4. You beat me to it.

[defendandprotect]

17. Republican Congressman the other day at health hearings was citing

the great number of death by guns -- "We love our guns!" --
and he was like proud of that end of it!!

And why a gun? Because you're frightened of your fellow citizen?

And who created that situation? The GOP!

[ashling]

60. It was Sen. John Ensign

He was saying that the only reason France has better health outcomes than us is that we have so many gun automobile related deaths (said that the French have more public transportation)


:crazy:

[proteus_lives]

26. So you're saying I'm going to die by gunfire?

I'm a gun owner and CCW-holder. So is most of my family and tons of people I know. No gun deaths there.

Are all pilots destined to die in crashes?

[roguevalley]

30. do you wear it in public like she did? she was a fool about it, you aren't.

not the same thing here I think, Proteus_Lives.

[proteus_lives]

34. Sometimes.

I'm CCW holder but I don't open-carry. I think it's a bad idea to call attention to yourself. Like wearing loud jewelry or flashing cash.

I just don't think guns caused this tragedy. The poster was implying that gun-ownership and use will always lead to death by firearms. Which a false connection to me.

[superconnected]

96. I think the mentalilty of some gun owners caused this tragedy.

And I think that mentality is shown every day in the news. Glad if you're not like that. Your peers(fellow gun NUTS) sure make you look bad though.

[proteus_lives]

104. Here's the problem. The news distorts (Its what they do)

99% of my peers aren't "gun nuts" a phrase I bet we probably define differently. These people's mentality isn't the average mindset of a gun-owner or CCW holder.

[zanne]

186. But you can't deny that....

Shooting someone is much easier than something more intimate, like stabbing. It can be done from a distance, with no "blood on your hands". Basically, it's a cowardly act.

[TheWraith]

38. That's what CCW holder means.

Someone licensed to carry a concealed weapon. Generally speaking, around 2% of the adult population nationwide is licensed to carry concealed.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

32. You are oversimplifying, and you know it.

Of course not all gun owners are destined to die by gunfire.

But in domestic disputes with guns, death by gunfire is often the result.

[proteus_lives]

36. Perhaps.

But you are too. Guns didn't cause this tragedy.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

37. Did I say they did?

I did not.

All I'm saying is that the presence of guns can lead to this sort of tragedy. Without guns in that home, those people would have had a much better chance of living.

Guns are the means for the tragedy's happening. NOT the cause.

[proteus_lives]

48. They are the means.

But if knives, fire or baseball bats were the instruments of murder, there wouldn't be calls to ban them. You're original comment sounded like gun-grabber speak to me. I'm sorry if I offended.

But people will this tragedy and others like to restrict our rights. So I feel obliged to say something.

[benEzra]

198. You do know her slimeball husband who shot her was a law enforcement officer, yes?

She didn't shoot him; he shot her. AFAIK, he was a corrections officer and parole officer.

There is a disturbing amount of glee in this thread at her death. "She chose to own a gun so she had it coming" is hardly a progressive viewpoint, particularly since her own choices regarding gun ownership had nothing to do with her murder.

[Autonomy]

39. Actually, there's a good chance guns did cause this tragedy

The guns are very possibly a "but for" cause of the deaths in this situation: but for the presence of guns, the deaths might not have happened. With guns present, it is too easy to succumb to passions of the moment that would otherwise be dissipated through much less lethal methods.

[Mojorabbit]

41. It is possible

but in England it seems using knives is becoming more popular. Humans have always found ways to do violence from the very beginning of our existence.

[Autonomy]

43. Anyone willing to use a knife

would be far more willing to use a gun, and likely more successful at killing someone. I'd kill to live in a country where people had to resort to using knives! (pun intended)

Maybe the reliance on knives in England is why the murder rate has dropped to a 20-year low.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/8153392.stm

Notice that the murders for the last year are a bit over 600. SIX HUNDRED. No, that's not in thousands. That's total.

Notice also that the risk of being a victim of crime has RISEN one percent, but murder and manslaughter has DROPPED. The murder rate decrease is obviously not for the lack of criminals; it's for the lack of guns.

I am guessing the English aren't all that good with their knives. Good thing for them.

[jenniferj]

54. There has been a huge public outcry over the murder by

knife in the UK, because teenagers were murdering teenagers in the inner cities...including http://www.mirror.co.uk/sunday-mirror/2008/05/25/harry-potter-star-knifed-to-death-in-row-over-mobile-phone-98487-20429071/ and http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jun/12/ben-kinsella-murder-life-sentence..... There is nothing public disgust to bring shame on these thugs...

[proteus_lives]

46. Same with knives, blunt objects, etc.

If a person is angry enough, has a reason or is crazy enough to kill, they'll use whatever is around them.

I don't blame tools for their user's action.

[crim son]

63. Who commits suicide using a blunt object?

It's the ease of use, possibility of instant and possibly pain free death that makes the gun attractive as a weapon in these cases. Defend the right to carry if you will, but it's disingenuous to claim that as a weapon a gun is no different from a knife. It is.

[proteus_lives]

167. I've read about prisoners slamming their heads into walls.

To commit suicide. I'm not saying guns aren't different. I just object to the claim that they are the reason behind this tragedy.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

172. Lots of people. The ground is fairly blunt.

[crim son]

185. That is a good point, Dave.

I must admit I'm wrong on that one.

[Autonomy]

173. What do you mean blame tools?

No one is "blaming" guns for anything, as if they are entities with rights and wills of their own.

Yes, if a person is angry enough, or crazy enough, he or she will use whatever is available to murder. The bar for how angry, crazy, or intent upon murder one needs to be to actually kill someone is greatly lowered when a gun is available.

[RKP5637]

88. Agree! Guns allow for a quick passionate reaction with no thought, then it's too late to think! n/t

[abelenkpe2]

160. My pop who retired from the navy

would never allow guns in the house for that very reason.

He's not against guns. He just knows people and the tragedy that can happen in the heat of the moment. No gun and the chance for reason to prevail is greatly increased.

But some will say guns aren't to blame.

I for one think they are f-ing nuts.
We need stronger gun laws and I'm not gonna pussyfoot around that.

[RKP5637]

169. Exactly!!!

[Pavulon]

189. Define the changes you want please(nt)

[Hepburn]

145. +1...n/t

[zanne]

187. So true. They're an instrument of rage. nt

[leftynyc]

71. While I agree with your larger point

that not everybody who owns guns will die from guns, this domestic dispute was brought to a doubly tragic end because of guns. Just like a garden variety barroom brawl has a greater chance of escalating into more serious injuries or death with the presence of guns.

[truebrit71]

75. Guns didn't cause the tragedy? How was the murder/suicide carried out, harsh language?

Of COURSE guns caused this tragedy...

[RaleighNCDUer]

89. Sure about that? Without a gun, it might have ended with someone with

a black eye followed by a messy divorce. Put a gun in the mix, and you have two dead.

How can you say 'guns didn't cause this tragedy'?

[proteus_lives]

92. Because they didn't.

They were more of a means rather then a cause.

[RaleighNCDUer]

115. Is a black eye a tragedy?

Remove the guns = no death = no tragedy.

[proteus_lives]

131. False.

Removing guns does not mean no death. He could have beaten her to death.

[Pavulon]

132. Because guns and murder were invented on the same day...(nt)

[Hepburn]

146. They are solely an impliment of violence ~~

the only use for a gun when aimed at a living being is death. PERIOD.

Accept reality, OK?

[proteus_lives]

165. Not your version.

They can be used for violence. But the reason most use/carry them is for self-defense. There's a difference.

[Hepburn]

174. So....

...if a gun is fired in self-defense, it is a non-violent impliment.

:eyes: Logic is NOT your strong point...

[katkat]

118. Raleigh

Raleigh, Plenty of spouses, usually women, are beaten to death.

I don't know if the availability of guns made this more likely. I am trying not to type, no loss the human gene pool has been improved, but seem to be unable to resist the impulse. Too bad she bred first.

[Pavulon]

126. Yep, dead mom in subdivision

husband killed her for sure. She is just as dead, but no gun? How is this possible.

[Pavulon]

125. Like illegal immigrants cause head ons on the beltline..

or their cars, suv runs over kid in cary. Not a DRUNK person crashed and killed a family or a texting guy runs over a kid in the road.

if there were no cars or illegal immigrants there 440 would be safe..

False logic, people committed murder before guns.

[superconnected]

101. gun owners did.

[TankLV]

180. umm - YES - they DID!!!

[depakid]

98. You and the people around you are at higher risk based on your behavior

The OP is just one more case in point of that.

[superconnected]

103. you're far more likely too than those of us that don't own guns/ have them in the house.

http://www.ichv.org/Statistics.htm

"A gun in the home is 4 times more likely to be involved in an unintentional shooting, 7 times more likely to be used to commit a criminal assault or homicide, and 11 times more likely to be used to attempt or commit suicide than to be used in self-defense."

"A gun in the home increases the risk of homicide of a household member by 3 times and the risk of suicide by 5 times compared to homes where no gun is present."

Ain't gun owners brilliant.. :)

[proteus_lives]

107. A biased study is worthless.

Ain't gun-grabbers brilliant. :-)

[superconnected]

110. Even Dept of Justice statistics? We'll I see how your logic(lack of) works.

Truth is based on what you prefer to believe. A true gun nut. I see the people in the story and you have a lot in common. Brains, I tell ya.

[proteus_lives]

113. Yeah, a lot in common.

We're both gun-owners. That must mean I have a lot in common with other people who wear pants too. :eyes: Be careful about what you say or I might shoot you. I mean, I'm a gun owner so I must be violent. :sarcasm:

You just keep eating what the antis spoon-feed you. Your fear and false connections are pointless.

[katkat]

129. curious

Out of curiosity, why do you want a gun? This is a sincere question. I assume someone might legitimately say Because they're saying I can't have it, but I'm looking for a more informative answer than that.

Myself, I would not have a gun in the house because the possibility of visiting kids getting to it, no matter how I tried to make it off limits, would never give me a moment's peace. On the other hand, if you're living in the middle of a crime-ridden ghetto, I can see owning one.

[proteus_lives]

140. Several reasons.

I'm a firm believer in self-defense/home defense and I think owning a firearm is the best way to cover that. I also often work late shifts and I feel better walking through a parking garage at 2am if I'm armed.

I also grew up around firearms and I'm comfortable with them. I'm also concerned with the status of our 2nd Amendment rights. I always see members of my own party go after them like the rethugs go after freedom of speech and privacy. It's always disturbed me. I consider gun-ownership a liberal value and wouldn't part with it anymore then I would free speech/religion or voting rights.

I also enjoy target shooting, it's something I've always done with my father. I live alone but I have nieces and nephews so I see what you're saying about kids in the house. A gun safe/lock box will be them out of reach. Unless they know the code, they are virtually impossible to get into. No matter what, safety and training should be priority one.

And while I believe in basic gun laws, most laws they try and pass don't punish criminals and crazies. They punish legal owners, I feel like I'd be punished for crimes I didn't commit. I don't blame guns because I don't see the "gun mystique" so I don't get it when people focus on the guns in cases like this. It was the people in the story at fault here. Focusing on inanimate objects is way of deflecting people from social problems.

I don't want to force people to carry guns or shoot anyone. I just want our rights to be left alone. Peace.

[Hepburn]

147. How many times have you found it NECESSARY to use a gun...

...for self defense or the defense of another?

I want to be free of your impliments of violence ~~ your right to guns ends where my safety begins.

JMHO

[Pavulon]

153. What about the police officer who shot her? How does that work?

i bet he would happily shot you too given the right provocation.

[Hepburn]

175. Obviously and argument to arm everyone....

...do you have any clue?

[proteus_lives]

164. None yet, hopefully the situation will never come.

How many times has a seatbelt saved your life? How many times have you used that emergency $20 or 50 you keep behind your license? How many times has it been necessary to lock your door? It's not about wanting use the gun. I'd rather have it and not need it then need it and not have it.

"I want to be free of your implements of violence ~~ your right to guns ends where my safety begins." Your fear doesn't override my rights. You've walked past, sat near and been around people carrying weapons and no one has shot you. If you stood next to me in a movie line, you'd never know I was carrying a gun. You don't need to know because it's none of your business. By your logic, if you didn't like what I was saying, my right to free speech ends around you. That doesn't work.

BTW, it's not an "implement of violence" until it's used for violence. Until then it's a tool I choose to carry. And I would only use it in self-defense, so you have no case at all.

[Hepburn]

176. When is the last time a seatbelt killed someone?

Try some logic, OK? It really is not that difficult to see the difference between items which are are designed with totally non-violent purposes in mind viz firearms which have ONLY one purpose ~~ violence.

Please...haven't you mixed apples and oranges enough?

[proteus_lives]

195. Logic?

Ha!

Try blaming people and not objects and we'll talk about logic.

[demodonkey]

199. I had to shoot a potentially rabid racoon on our farm...

...it was threatening our cows and family members. Fortunately testing shows it was not rabid but it had distemper.

It was much safer and more humane to shoot it rather than try to club to death it or something, and given its behavior it was unsafe to allow it to remain near our house and barn.

Living on a farm, I see a gun as a tool for situations like this. A needed and useful tool. Nothing more nothing less.

[katkat]

197. can't be too careful with kids around

The gun safe/lock box is fine, until the day you forget it and a six year old wanders by. Since I don't think I'm infallible, I would personally never risk this.

[superconnected]

108. More statics on guns

http://www.kqed.org/w/baywindow/guns/stats.html


A gun in your home makes it three times more likely that you or someone you care about will be murdered by a family member

or intimate partner (Kellerman,New England Journal of Medicine v329, n.15 1993)

Gun violence is the second-leading cause of injury-related fatalities in the US after car accidents. In Alaska, Maryland and

Nevada as well as D.C., firearm death rates in 1998 exceeded those for car accidents. (CDC & Natnl. Vital Statistics Report,

1999)

In 1997, homicide was the second leading cause of death amongst young women from 15 to 24. Suicide was the fourth leading

cause of death for this same age group. 56 percent of these deaths were caused by firearms. (National Vital Statistics Report,

1999)

In 1998, for every one time a woman used a handgun to kill a stranger in self-defense, 302 women were murdered in handgun

homicides (FBI's Supplementary Homicide Report, 1998)

In a household with a gun, a person is almost five times more likely to die by suicide than people living in a gun-free home. (New

England Journal of Medicine, v327, n.7, 1992)

The Self-Defense Myth

In 1997, for every time that a civilian used a handgun to kill in self-defense, 43 people lost their lives in handgun homicides. (FBI Supplementary Homicide Report data, 1997)

In 1997 there were 15,690 homicides, of which 8,503 were committed with handguns. Only 193 (2.3 percent) handgun homicides were classified as justifiable homicides. (FBI Supplementary Homicide Report data, 1997)

[Pavulon]

135. Umm, her police officer husband killed her. So you can drop you politicking

because even if there were no civilian ownership there would be armed police (yeppers the UK has them as does Japan). You need a better dead body to stand on to deliver you message. This one does not fit the scenario you want.

[Art_from_Ark]

170. Where does it say in the article that her husband was a police officer?

And where does it say that HE killed HER? Sounds to me like it could easily have been the other way around. Or even that a third person could have been involved.

[mountainvue]

171. There is a photo of her at the soccer

game and there is nothing concealed about her weapon. She wears it like an accessory. I imagine she got tired of just having that thing sit on her hip. And yes, it's horribly fucked for the children.

[TankLV]

179. and you and your family are a THOUSAND TIMES more likely to die by your guns...!!!

[Mad_Dem_X]

61. +1

[crim son]

62. My absolute first thought.

Awful all around.

[HopeHoops]

73. I predicted something like this would happen back when she went national

That gun certainly made her safer.

[JerseygirlCT]

77. I feel horrible for their children too

and I agree - that's what comes to mind.

[Lorien]

183. Yep. What are the statistics? Is it 46% or 47% more likely to die from

a gunshot wound if you carry a firearm than those who do not carry?

[Arctic Dave]

3. Live by the sword, die by the sword?

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. Those poor, poor kids!

[ingac70]

6. ....

[nvme]

15. Goddamn these unstable personality types

Why the hell should these fucking people be allowed to have guns! Shit! These poor orphans. Nothing makes me madder.

[jillan]

23. Look at that picture - look at the mom's body language while her daughter is hugging her.

Hopefully mom is hugging her with her other hand that we can't see.

[alcibiades_mystery]

58. Mama always said

Stupid is as stupid does.

[Mz Pip]

7. marital problems + guns

not a good combination.

Unfortunately, this kind of thing happens regardless of national attention.

Not much more to say except to hope there are people around who can support and care for the children.

[tomm2thumbs]

8. who shot who?

[MilesColtrane]

10. Yeah, not much information there.

Maybe she carried a gun because she was afraid of just this sort of thing happening.

[tomm2thumbs]

11. could have been a double suicide or a double homicide

[LisaL]

12. Well it sure as hell didn't help her, did it?

[tomm2thumbs]

20. she got her 15 minutes of fame, and maybe 15 minutes more of life

lucky there weren't any questionable calls during the soccer game

paranoid people + guns = this story

[superconnected]

102. Who cares! Two gun nuts down.

It's like gang members killing each other. I almost have to clap and say on behalf of society, thanks!

[Pavulon]

121. Congrats, you win stupidest post on all internet for today (4chan exempted) (nt)

[ingac70]

9. After a two hour standoff with police.....

http://www.ldnews.com/ci_13506791

[Blandocyte]

56. "Daddy shot Mommy," a neighbor said one of the kids yelled

Tragic stuff. Brought to you courtesy of the gun industry and its supporters.

Mr. and Ms. America, hand 'em in.

[Pavulon]

130. Yep, the gun industry got drunk and killed mommy, No one owns up..

that is a sad state of collective mental disease. SUVs, cell phones, and booze do not kill. MORONS who make choices do. A person pulled a trigger, they own that act.

Finish up banning weed and hookers, when I cant call and get a guy to drop weed at my door, then I will happily hand in every firearm i own.

[Blandocyte]

182. Gun Industry AND its supporters are to blame.

I'm guessing the shooter was a supporter, since he was using one of the industry's fine products. A total ban will decrease the amount of supporters.

And good luck getting those commodities you mentioned. I'm no longer a supporter of those industries, either.

[Pavulon]

191. He was a state LEO. So even in you gun free dream land

police will be armed (like in Japan and UK) and can still shoot their spouses.

[chatnoir]

142. And she operated a day-care in her home???

:wtf:

[Vidar]

13. Live by the gun. Die by the gun.

[proteus_lives]

27. See my response above.

[CakeGrrl]

14. The person against whom she really needed to defend herself was

under her own roof. Go figure.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrCory]

82. A Taste of that Legendary Empathy from the Anti Crowd.

Right, click, save for future reference.

[Ian David]

67. Statistically, that's how it usually works. n/t

[jgraz]

16. Another shining victory for the gundamentalists.

I hope they're proud.

[defendandprotect]

18. If you want to protect your family, kids . . . guns aren't the way -- !!!

[proteus_lives]

29. Always worked for my family.

Ever think of blaming the person holding the gun?

[ingac70]

33. I tell you what pisses me off about this lady....

I've been reading a gun enthusiast site she frequented, and apparently she has had marital problems for months... telling these people on there she was afraid of her husband. That is why she wanted to pack heat every where she went. All she was doing was endangering a bunch of kids, 'cause she was just sitting there waiting for shoot out with hubby.

It's best this happened at her house and not a soccer field full of kids, cause she wasn't too quick on the draw.

[TheWraith]

40. Unfortunately in most cases the alternative is an order of protection, which is worthless.

Orders of protection (also called restraining orders) are famously unable to stop violent individuals from committing a crime. Ask a domestic violence specialist, they'll tell you that a restraining order is only slightly more of a deterrent than harsh language.

[proteus_lives]

49. That's true.

Sadly.

[proteus_lives]

50. Bad reasons are bad reasons.

She should have left him. But I must say that the mere act of carrying rarely endangers anybody. If she was unarmed and her husband shot her the children would be still be endangered.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

76. What are you protecting your family from? Tigers?

Lisa: That's spacious reasoning, Dad.
Homer: Thank you, dear.
Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It's just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you?

Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.

-- Maybe he wants it as a pet, "Much Apu About Nothing"

[proteus_lives]

86. That's a good response.

:eyes:

[Lorien]

184. It's proven over and over again, but the gun huggers won't accept it

My friend Andrew's little boy got into the cabinet that held his pistol and accidentally killed himself with it. Then a few years later Andrew took his own life with the same pistol. Lotta good it did the family, eh?

[tomm2thumbs]

19. from article: 'No cause of death was announced' -- I'd hesitate to say 'gun shot induced'

[comtec]

45. Lead poisoning

and high-speed injection of said lead.

this is a sad tragedy

if only there were guns in the house this might have been avoided!

oh wait...

A note on restraining orders... that generally suggests the person has taken the first intelligent step and LEFT said dangerous person, NOT still living with them waiting for a shoot out at the O.K. corral!

[tomm2thumbs]

47. yes you are right

rapid lead poisoning. what was I thinking

[smoogatz]

22. Okay--why the fuck would anyone take a GUN to their kid's soccer practice?

If some psycho took a gun to MY kid's soccer practice, I'd be out of there (with kid) so fast it'd make your head spin, and I'd be calling 911 on the cell phone as I was driving away. It's obvious that these people were dangerous, unstable loons, yet they're allowed to walk around in public with loaded weapons? Crazy. The great American gun fetish is very, very unhealthy.

[OregonBlue]

64. I agree, every parent there should just pack up their kids and leave. She may have the right

legally to bring her gun to practice but what's up with the other parents that allowed their kids to be around her? I'd say that's really the way to stop this, don't allow your children to participate with other kids who's parents pack. If someone shows up at a public event (town hall meeting) with a gun, everyone just get up and leave and let the gun nuts argue with themselves. It's time we made it clear we won't participate with these lunatics.

[smoogatz]

65. It shouldn't be legal.

We're not living in the wild freaking west, no matter how much these loons insist on pretending that we do. When everybody carries weapons, lawlessness ensues--see Afghanistan.

[OregonBlue]

78. It shouldn't be but it is so, if everyone just stopped participating when these guys or gals show up

packing, they wouldn't have anyone left to play with. They wouldn't have anyone left to try to impress. People who open carry are looking for attention. Ignore them, take away the audience they so desperately seek.

[Pavulon]

122. Or switzerland..Man zurich and geneva

are shitholes I am sure they would all love to move to chicago where guns are banned and there is no crime.

[smoogatz]

159. Swiss gun ownership is highly regulated.

Every weapon is registered, ammunition is tightly controlled, and almost all gun owners are active members of the military reserve. The situation there is in no way analogous to the U.S. or Afghanistan, and wouldn't be tolerated by the NRA if we tried to institute it here. Nice try though, champ.

On edit: and the Swiss don't carry their weapons around with them, obviously. They keep actual military weapons in their homes, in case they're called to respond to a national emergency, which they are trained to do. So what was your point again?

[Pavulon]

192. Umm I lived there for a while.. Zero crime, not even street shit

they can buy ammo in any range including 556 nato. They do regulate issued ammo (it belongs to the govt, not you) , however they have access to machine guns and can buy handguns. They can carry them around and it is not odd to see a guy in a store with a shouldered 550. They do take shooting seriously and it is part of the culture. And every once in a while a guy gets pissed and drunk and shoots his wife. But it is really rare.

My point is they dont shoot each other all that much. Like greenwich ct, telluride, and other places where people are rich and happy.

[robo50]

138. I have about the same opinion. This woman was not very well

centered, if she thought she was in danger at a kids' soccer game, more than anyone else at that game.

Of course, one OTHER gun toting nut might show up at a kids' soccer game, and one MIGHT have to shoot such a nut, but come on, what are the chances, of all the gin joints and soccer games in the USA, ONLY THAT soccer game needed a mom with a gun!

[Chulanowa]

24. Well, that couldn't posibly have happened!

Everyone knows that owning a gun magically protects you from harm! it's the whole point, right?

[Plucketeer]

25. How terrible! Another poor, innocent gun - forced into a life of crime!

Oh the AGONY! Oh the gun freaks having to yet again jump to the defense of their death tools! :cry:

[LAGC]

31. Well you are right about one thing...

They are just tools. Tools that save lives far more often than they take...

Nevermind the tragedy of a murder-suicide, just another opportunity to bash the instruments used, eh? :eyes:

[ingac70]

35. What are the figures for the lives saved?

Any one know?

[jgraz]

42. In the fantasies of the gun fanatics

Gun owners are far more likely to get shot by their own weapon than to use it to save anyone's life.

[Autonomy]

44. Guns save lives

of the people who shoot first. I would bet that in most cases that's the assailant. It would have to be, by definition. And by definition, "the criminal", though many are not criminals until the moment they pull the trigger.

The story above is a case in point. Had the husband pulled his gun and NOT shot first, his wife may well have shot him; therefore, his gun saved his life. It also killed him when he turned it on himself. So I guess his shooting first is a -1 compared to her shooting first.

"Guns save lives" = nonsense

[Plucketeer]

83. Yup!

That's why the gun was invented - to save lives! :crazy:

[Hepburn]

152. Yep.....

...the only purpose of the POS gun is to kill ~~ but those who worship at the altar of Smith and Wesson ~~ they just do not get it.

Wait until someone has tried to kill them with gun...then let them talk to me. Been there and done that. But for the gun jamming, I would not be here today. So the asshole took the gun and fractured my skull with it instead.

And gun loons wonder why the hell I hate guns....sheesh...

[Pavulon]

155. You are lucky, that is like 1 in 10,000 event..

the shooter was a police officer in this case. How would that work out in the gun free utopia.

[Hepburn]

177. Successfully....

...see: England.

Duh...

[Pavulon]

190. They have armed police, one left a glock 17 on the back of a crapper..

none the less, people have guns there, and they use them. She did not shoot the people in starbucks in the head however. But she could have, given she had a gun.

[Plucketeer]

168. You really haven't lived..........

.........until you've been awakened in the middle of the night where the only thing visible beside the glare of the flashlight is the reflections off the chromed revolver that's prodding your ass outta bed.
Had I owned a gun at that point, how the HELL would it have protected me??? Supposing I DID keep one under my pillow at that time, imagine if I'd tried to pull it up and score with it - me still half dazed from being awakened from a sound sleep! Maybe some of these gun-kissing Rambos would've fared better, but frankly, I'm glad my aggressor didn't feel threatened that night. I sure to fuck wouldn't be here to tell about it!

[Pavulon]

193. That is called common sense and "the drop"

if the person was really serious maybe you would have never woken up? If someone has you covered, why would you draw a piece. Unless you knew you were going to die anyway.

Unlike tv, most pistol hits are not fatal and many people kill others after suffering mortal wounds. You can function normally for 15 seconds or so after a round severs you aorta.

[TankLV]

181. Tell us another FAIRY TAIL! You NEVER hear about such crap because IT DON'T HAPPEN!!!

You hear about all the NEEDLESS deaths because they DO happen...

[Plucketeer]

85. Only gun-worshipers know those closely guarded tallies!

[saigon68]

53. Disarm the COPS they KILL in my neck of the woods

Two years since Crandon shootings

Posted: Oct 07, 2009 7:11 AM CDT

A vigil is being held at 6:00 PM tonight in memory of the victims at the un-finished memorial. Today marks the second anniversary of the deaths of six young people who were killed by an off-duty deputy in Crandon.

This COCK SUCKER took a fully automatic M-16 A-4 and MOWED DOWN his ex-GF and 5 of her friends.
AND THEN PLAYED CATCH ME IF YOU CAN, WITH THE REST OF THE SHERIFFS DEPT UNTIL A SNIPER SHOT HIM IN THE HEAD

MORE http://www.waow.com/Global/story.asp?S=11271601

[smoogatz]

68. Was that a service weapon

or a privately-owned weapon? But I agree--disarm the cops.

[Plucketeer]

84. OK - now it's time for you to tell me how cars are just tools too!

And yet, cars kill alota people! The one inescapable FACT is that car's ARE NOT designed to put a chunk of lead (or whatever metal a given projectile is made from) thru something with the intent of destroying or killing that something! GAH! :crazy:

[RaleighNCDUer]

91. Ooh, ooh, I've got one!

You see, this asshole was playing bumper tag with me on the highway, I think he didn't like my bumper stickers or something, and got in front of me and slowed waaaay down, then when I try to pass he changes lanes in front of me and slows waaay down. But he has to stop at a stop light. I get out and go up to him and say "What the FUCK do you think you are doing - are you trying to KILL someone out here?!" So he pulls out a handgun, trembling with with terror at having pissed off a Democrat, and say "Get back in your car", and I say "What the FUCK? You pull a fucking GUN on me? Are you fucking INSANE?" Then the light changes and he drives away.

To this day, I'm sure he believes that fucking nickle-plated .32 saved his life. There's a "lives saved" scenario for you.

[pundaint]

51. nice!

[Drunken Irishman]

52. I really am horrible because I laughed.

The irony is just amazing. I feel terrible, but daaaam!

[Divine Discontent]

55. you are really horrible. LOL

your line cracked me up... isn't it just pathetic?

[alcibiades_mystery]

57. I'm remaining quiet for precisely this reason

Minus feeling terrible.

[E-Z-B]

59. LOL!

[Ian David]

66. Oh, who could have seen THAT coming. n/t

[smoogatz]

69. The money quote:

"Just the fact that he was wrong is evidenced by the fact that my license was restored to me. ... I am a victim of Sheriff Michael DeLeo’s. I am a victim of those in society as a direct result of his actions as well. The way people look at me sometimes when I am out running errands, I feel as if I am wearing a scarlet letter, and really it’s a Glock 26."

Evidently she had her carry license revoked after the soccer incident (rightly so , IMO), and sued the sheriff for $1 million. Why? Because she was a victim, of course.

She wasn't a victim then, but she is now.

[Blue_Tires]

70. those poor kids...that's all i can say...

but i do question the mentality of open carry at a youth soccer game...

[dugaresa]

72. Years ago, a friend of mine's parents were going through marital problems

and it was getting bad at home. She no longer lived there but her dad asked her to come to the house and help him remove all the weapons (guns) from the house.

Apparently their arguments got very heated at times and her mother and he would get into shoving matches. (these two had been married at least 30 years). It was getting much worse and her dad a former navy vet had the sense to realize that having a gun too easily accessible wasn't a good idea when both of them were at times irrational.

I feel bad that no one in this situation was that rational.


My friends parents resolved their problems and are still together.

[onehandle]

74. People who die by the gun at home are dead by their own hand or a family member's hand.

Gun lovers who love to taut 'successful' home intrusion 'fight' stories are on the fringe.

[gauguin57]

79. I was listening to Garrison Keillor's "Homegrown Democrat" on CD last night ...

... and he said something like (totally paraphrasing here), "I'm not interested in carrying a gun around St. Paul, because that strikes me as a bit demented. Because it's not 1845. Because I depend on a civil society to protect me. Because I'm on the side of the police, who have to think about people carrying guns every time they go to a domestic dispute or pull someone over in a car."

I live one county away from Lebanon, and this woman was all over the local news for DAYS after she brought the gun to the game. I think some really, really bad karma came back around yesterday. I feel so sad for her children. I hope they have good people to look after them. And I hope they will think differently about guns than their parents did.

[junior college]

80. Just goes to show that keeping guns in your house is a dumb idea

I have a Glock 27 and a Mosin Nagant but only because I think they are scary and dangerous which is punk rock. I keep the handgun locked in a safe and unloaded.

[Junkdrawer]

81. "Carrying a gun increases risk of getting shot and killed"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x258435

[slackmaster]

90. That's actually NOT what the study said

You are quoting the media article.

Abstract

Objectives. We investigated the possible relationship between being shot in an assault and possession of a gun at the time.

Methods. We enrolled 677 case participants that had been shot in an assault and 684 population-based control participants within Philadelphia, PA, from 2003 to 2006. We adjusted odds ratios for confounding variables.

Results. After adjustment, individuals in possession of a gun were 4.46 (P<.05) times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession. Among gun assaults where the victim had at least some chance to resist, this adjusted odds ratio increased to 5.45 (P<.05).

Conclusions. On average, guns did not protect those who possessed them from being shot in an assault. Although successful defensive gun uses occur each year, the probability of success may be low for civilian gun users in urban areas. Such users should reconsider their possession of guns or, at least, understand that regular possession necessitates careful safety countermeasures.

Key Words: Epidemiology, Health Policy, Injury/Emergency Care/Violence, Prevention, Social Science, Urban Health

http://www.ajph.org/cgi/content/abstract/AJPH.2008.143099v1

[depakid]

109. Plenty of other studies support the basic conclusion

and we see evidence of it nearly every day somewhere in America.

[slackmaster]

112. Yes, because guns emit a magic energy field that attracts bullets

:eyes:

[X_Digger]

116. Right.. Kellerman et al?

Where your 'chances' of being killed by a gun _brought in to your house_ in 60% of the cases is dependent on whether or not _you_ have a gun in the house.

[depakid]

117. There's a whole body of epidemiological literature that confirms the obvious

Of course, fear and obsession trumps reason in the United States these days- which is why we keep seeing these family shootings.

[X_Digger]

120. We've had this dance before, Depakid..

.. all the studies I've seen (and you gave me a bunch of links, thanks) suffer from a combination of the same faults-

-the link between control and subject doesn't take into account things like illegal drug use and previous criminal record
-few, if any, of the studies correlate for crime rate in the control vs study- so a person who is more likely to be the victim of crime because they live in a bad neighborhood is correlated to someone living in the burbs in a low crime area
-for both Kellerman "studies", the people shot were not shot with a gun kept in their own home in 60 & 67% of the times (respectively.)
-only one that I can think of off the top of my head discounted shootings during the commission of a crime- if the question is whether criminals should worry about carrying guns, it's valid. If it's your average joe, it's not.

[slackmaster]

149. Cites, please.

Saying "Plenty of other studies" without citing them doesn't cut the mustard.

[lanlady]

87. Gave birth to 3 children, dead at 31

Those 2nd amendment rights must look mighty unimportant right now.

[Xenotime]

93. Poor kids...but the parents were probably teaching a "safety lesson"

[superconnected]

99. Poor us! Those two bred.

[proteus_lives]

106. Way to shit on the kids champ.

:puke:

[superconnected]

111. Hey, look at the parents those kids had. I'd be worried about having the kids over.

[proteus_lives]

114. Wow, what logic.

Do you tell the children of rape victims to stay away too?

[xchrom]

94. gasp! -- no! -- really?!?!

no shock here.

[Generator]

95. Patriot news?

Good lord. Pathetic, if you have a gun around all the time-you tend to use them. Of course, hunting is different-no matter how you feel about it. But toting one all the time gives access. Access is human nature to use it.

[superconnected]

97. Figures. Sad, but then so was her mentality about guns.

[depakid]

100. The rationalizations continue...

Bottom line here: no guns in the house- and these two would likely be alive.

Want to increase your risk of being involved in a tragedy? Keep guns around. That's the take home message.

[Pavulon]

127. Murder and guns, invented on the same day. Impressive logic..

dont want to be in an airplane crash, just never fly anywhere.

[Dr Fate]

156. You should compare bath tubs to guns instead of air planes to guns.

It's much cuter.

[Pavulon]

158. Its all bullshit, a state LEO killed his wife

now how does that impact the situation?

[robo50]

105. Tragic story. And this is not the only time we hear about

folks like this, victims of their own self-serving actions.

I wonder if that was the only time that gun had been used against a person, or if it EVER REALLY was used as "protection"

[Pavulon]

124. Guess what champ. Unless you are poor and live in public housing

you get to die of cancer or heart failure. Start running and stop eating bacon. YOu may live a bit longer. If you are really special you get to die in a car wreck, probably caused by a teenager or distracted driver, or killed by a sleepy resident.

Now if you actually are a impoverished person and live in public housing in a major city, the odds stacked up against you have very little to do with gun control.

[robo50]

133. Trying EVER SO HARD to follow your "logic", twisted as it might be, I can't even

find the concepts hidden in your dog-whistle about poverty, eating the wrong foods, or dying on the highways.

True, about the same number of people die on the highways as die without health insurance every year, maybe a few LESS on the highways than in the non-insured status, according to Keith Olbermann, last night... but what does this all have to do with you calling me

"Champ" for having an opinion about people who use their guns irresponsibly and get killed in the process????

Sorry, I can't follow your logic, people die senselessly every day, only a few with guns involved, but some are the result of people who think like these two victims, their guns were purchased to make them "safer" or more "protected", and their OWN thought processes got in the way of that happening.

What am I missing? What was your point?

[Pavulon]

134. The police officer who shot her, is a fluke..like the big pumpkin on the news

that is why it is news. So you can ohh and ahh at it. The cancer that kills you or the drunk is "normal" so it does not make news. If a police officer pulls you over and shoots you in the face then you get to be an anecdote like this lady. Legal gun ownership had nada to do with this. This is all about attack politics. The gun culture killed her..

But hey it makes great drama..

[robo50]

136. What "police officer" shot her? ??? I thought this was a

murder suicide between husband and wife, according to my reading of the original article.

Where is the link to a "police officer who shot her"????

Where does eating bacon and drunk drivers figure in your stream of consciousness over this ??

[Pavulon]

137. Hubby was police, which makes this a poor body to stand on...

and espouse the evils of firearm ownership by the public. YTBD if he shot her with a duty weapon. Even the UK and Japan have armed police, who could, shoot their spouse, then themselves.

Maybe there is a "fuck the police" crowd who can take this one over and get some milage from it.

Bacon, cars, and cancer kill many more than guns.

[robo50]

139. So you are blaming the man who was a policeman, not the woman

who thought it was JUST FINE and DANDY to take a gun to a kids' soccer game?

The police caused this? She needed a gun to protect herself from the police?

Oh OK. Both are dead now, because he was a policeman?

[Pavulon]

141. The state police officer who shot her.. he would have a gun

even in the happy little world where none of us proles get one. Maybe the gun just did it all on its own. We will see if that gun is state property real soon.

[robo50]

143. Sorry, you have your facts wrong, he was NOT a state police

officer.


"Worked as prison guard, parole officer
Scott Hain had worked in Reading as a parole officer for the state Board of Probation and Parole since August 2008. He previously was a guard at the Camp Hill state prison, the state Corrections Department said."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33220258/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

[Pavulon]

144. State parole officer. has police powers and a duty weapon POLICE

other sources listed him as "state parole officer" in my state they carry weapons and have police power. He was not a county jailer..

Hain had worked in Reading as a parole officer for the state Board of Probation and Parole since August 2008

[Name removed]

148. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pavulon]

151. Dont trip when you get off that body you are using for a soap box (nt)

[abelenkpe2]

162. Gun nuts

are nuts.

[Plucketeer]

196. You can make these foolish comparisons all you want.

What you seem not to grasp is that all these other things you've cited as offering a potential for death, WERE NOT designed to kill you. Of course, maybe you think guns were invented because there was a spontaneous bloom of paper targets one time and creative minds had to invent a device to take advantage of them. :puke:

[Pavulon]

123. Wow , some of the dumbshittery in this topic tops /b

that is amazing. "laughed at their death" , "to bad they bred", "two less gun nuts" , that is just amazing. Regardless of your opinion on a political issue that is pretty sick.

[LanternWaste]

128. The secular dogmatism in these threads

The secular dogmatism in these threads is both predictable, and much stronger than any fundy could ever dream of for themselves.

Sacred cows are said to be delicious... until yours becomes the main course.

[midnight armadillo]

150. Here's a choice quote

from the article on the woman toting her gun to the soccer game:

Greg Rotz of Pennsylvania Open Carry said there is even some question about whether guns can be prohibited in schools. The law banning them also says guns may be used "in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or if possessed for other lawful purpose."

Rotz said the more people openly carry guns, the safer society will be. He hopes the ruling in Lebanon County will encourage more people to carry guns.

When asked what parents should do if they want gun-free soccer games, he answered, "They don't have that right."

It seems to me that an openly armed society is a less-safe one, since openly armed citizens are naturally going to be less trustful of each other. If they had some trust that random strangers weren't going to suddenly assault them, they wouldn't need to be openly armed, right?

[robo50]

154. Well, we KNOW that guns in the victims' home did NOTHING to

make anyone safer!!!

Can you imagine guns in public schools held by anyone other than a police officer?

Geez, let's just kill off a few thousand kids in school now, get it over with!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Pavulon]

157. I believe the trigger here was pulled by a state LEO.

lets see if the murder weapon was state issued..

[LAGC]

161. "An armed society is a polite society."

I tend to agree with that quote. You find in areas where there is a high rate of gun ownership, people are less likely to start confrontations or fights out of fear of what it might escalate into.

[jgraz]

163. Why don't we arm everyone with nukes?

That'll REALLY deter petty squabbles. :eyes:

[Critters2]

166. If only she'd had a gun. Oh, wait. nt

[smoogatz]

188. Oh. SNAP.

Nicely done.

[TankLV]

178. Gee - anotrher gun nut shot dead with her own gun - what a surprise!!!

Funny how you NEVER hear about all the THIEVES and ASSAULTS that have been stopped by gun carrying nuts - but there sure are a lot of INNOCENT CHILDREN and STRANGERS shot and killed NEEDLESSLY by idiots and their guns...!!!

[Pavulon]

194. Yep, and if a state trooper blows your brains out at a traffic stop because you tell him off

that is about the same as this situation. Police have guns, even if you choose not to have a gun, how EXACTLY does that effect the round he puts in your brain?