Intelligent Design (coming soon to the IN legislature)

[Chiyo-chichi]

Indiana public schools would teach "intelligent design" along with evolution under legislation that some Republican lawmakers are developing for the 2006 legislative session.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051103/NEWS02/511030467&SearchID=73225360564474


But Mitch may not support a state mandate...

Gov. Mitch Daniels said he's not sure he would support legislation that would require schools to teach intelligent design in schools.
In general, Daniels said today, the state should remove mandates from schools and leave those decisions up to local school boards and principals.

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051103/NEWS02/511030513&SearchID=73225360950999

[Chiyo-chichi]

1. Bruce Borders is the Elvis impersonator, isn't he?

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

:D

[thinkingwoman]

2. yes, he is

And not the best one either.

Likewise, he is certainly not the worst.

[Philo]

3. Yeah...

...because local school boards are overwhelmingly populated by geniuses.

I'm actually rather surprised this took so long. From what I've seen, many IN schools already diminish talk of evolution. This is just mandating as much since ID is just a ragtag collection of philosophical evolution criticisms.

Worried about "brain drain," Indiana? Keep up the good work.

[BiggJawn]

4. "Brain Drain" Hell, this is like a boiler blow-down...

When Patty Miller's "Turkey Baster" bill saw the light of day, I read a LTTE from a student who said that as soon as she had her degree in hand, she was OUT OF HERE! I got the impression she was going to have her car packed and idling and would snatch her sheepskin out of Jet-ski's hands...

WHAT "New businesses" are they trying to attract here? Fred Phelps' church and "Focus on your Family (To see if they're Worthy)"?

Oh, read the current issue of "Skeptical Inquirer" if you can. you'll see that there is NOTHING "rag-tag" about ID, it's as carefully thought out and orchestrated as anything Eisenhower did in Europe...

They're after us. I think the idea is that if they can get Religion and Superstition taught as FACT then Jeebus will come back, give them the cutest women for "Handmaidens" and all the OIL, and then everything be Just Irie...

[Philo]

5. The biggest problem...

...is that the ID crowd has hoodwinked people into thinking that ID _is_ science and that it's accepted by the scientific establishment. You and I aren't fooled by a little statistical razzle-dazzle, but many people are. So many supporters don't even recognize this as a dumbing down of their children.

It's a hell of a thing. I've argued in my thesis that local school boards should be made to defer to national science associations... a similar standard to what courts use when evaluating scientific evidence.

WHAT "New businesses" are they trying to attract here?

I was being ironic.

Oh, read the current issue of "Skeptical Inquirer" if you can. you'll see that there is NOTHING "rag-tag" about ID, it's as carefully thought out and orchestrated as anything Eisenhower did in Europe...

I didn't say the people were "rag-tag." I said their arguments were. They're a mix of the old arguments from complexity for the existence of God (soundly trounced by Hume), bad analogies, and lying through statistics. Not to brag, but I'm rather well acquainted with the ID movement, their tactics, and their arguments.

[BiggJawn]

6. That is the biggest part of the problem.

"Intelligent Design should be taught in our classrooms just like ANY OTHER scientific 'theory'..."

It really suprises some people when you show them that anything concerning the supernatural has not ONE shred of science in it. They take what the ID proponents tell them at face value.
Yes, the arguments are rag-tag, but they've been washed, waxed, and thouroughly detailed.
ID is presented (dishonestly so) as FACT, and the definition of "theory" is twisted to mean "Something unproven that is just so much 'What if?'..." On that point, I decided last night that I no longer speak of the "Theory of Evolution", but instead speak in terms of "Evolutionary Principles"

BTW, I was being ironic too when I asked what new businesses did Our Bitch Mitch hope to atrtact to Indiana with these new laws brought up from the 15th Century...

Do you think the Sheeple actually CARE that their children are being raised to be nothing more than cannon-fodder and Consumers? after all, "Jeebus is comin' REAL soon!". Who needs an expensive education when they're just gonna go meet the LAWD in the air next week, anyway...

[Philo]

7. So, are you arguing with me or not?

Because I can't actually tell.

Do you think the Sheeple actually CARE that their children are being raised to be nothing more than cannon-fodder and Consumers? after all, "Jeebus is comin' REAL soon!".

I do think that some people do care what their children are taught. Sure, there are plenty who don't believe in strict separation, and there's little one can do about them. They'll believe whatever their religious leaders tell them.

But there are also people out there who just fundamentally misunderstand the nature of science. They're not necessarily stupid--they're just lay people with big miunderstandings. These are people who hear the "academic freedom" arguments that competing theories in science should be taught to students. Of course, they're utterly wrong to think that ID competes in any meaningful way with evolution... but the people who believe that line, I believe, can be reached. They just need to be taught that ID isn't science.

And that's where the scientific community has been particularly poor. On the whole, they've chosen not to dignify the ID-ers and now they have a problem. They have to teach the fundamentals of science to adults who already have gone through most of their lives thinking they _do_ know what science is. And that's why this case in Dover, PA is so important. Science is finally stepping up to the plate and taking on the ID-ers... and science is kicking ass. Now they just need to do the same elsewhere.

[BiggJawn]

8. Not really.

Would seem that way though, wouldn't it? I'm just angry and numb, sorry if it comes across like I want to fight with you.

This news here in Indiana has really floored me. even though "OBM" says he's "unlikely" to sign anything like that into law, you know how the House of Bubbas are. They could over-ride him.

I went to sleep last night pondering how long before my fellow Hoosiers forget how to wipe themselves and need help blowing their noses. might be diferent in your part of the state, but up here in the Northwest...
I mean I'm seeing just as many "W" stickers as before. They're really clueless up here and I think if Dumbya went on FAUX and told 'em to drink drain cleaner, they would.

I'm watching the Dover case closely, because I can see that as Dover goes, so goes the rest of the country (well, maybe not North White or Frontier if Dover rejects Creationism).

"ID is not science". Indeed, and that is Buzzword One. I'm telling EVERYBODY. But I'm worried and frightened.

[thinkingwoman]

9. House of Bubbas is right

They're mind-numbing in their stupidity.

Even Hoosier Democrats are pretty worthless...take Jerry Denbo from Orange County area for example. Sure he pushed for the casino, but that was because his constituents wanted it. He also brags that he's endorsed by the NRA and supports putting the 10 Commandments on gov't property and now he's all for teaching ID. :eyes:

[BiggJawn]

10. The late Harrison Ullman would have been amused. Maybe.

I credit him with the tagging of the Indiana General Assembly as alternately "The World's WORST Legislature" and the "House of Bubbas".

It just blows my fucking mind how in one breath they wonder WHY all our smart young people are leaving Indiana with their Degrees, and in the next, they propose SHIT like "Intelligent Design", Constitutional ammendments to "protect" marriage (and I'm STILL waiting for you to 'splain that to me, Rich McLain!) and a law that would make medically assisted fertilization unavailable to anyone but married church-going couples and jail anyone who "filled" a turkey baster for their friends or neighbours...

Maybe we should visit Harrison's grave and listen if he's pounding his head against the floor of his coffin or not....

[salin]

12. I have to admit, that if I didn't spend

a lot of time (most weekends) back in my hometown (B-ton), I don't think I could have ever moved back to this state. I am a brain-drainer. Raised and college-educated here - even began grad work here - and did well enough that after I took a break from it ... went back to grad school - outside of the state at the top program (in my field) in the country.

I am so insulated from the reality of this state. I work with urban youth in Indy surrounded by well-educated, informed and progressive folks; I spend my "free time" in another pocket of anomoly in B-ton. I don't run into the folks who push ID or who vote for folks who push ID or any of the other religiously insane stuff. It is like I live in Indiana - but a very different Indiana than most of the rest of the state lives in.

[SpeedwayDemocrat]

13. You KNOW Harry would be pissed!

Harrison saw this religious fundy b.s. coming and spent his last months urging those of us he deemed "activists" to run for office. "You can only affect change from the inside..." he'd tell us at the NUVO staff meetings.
Unfortunately for him, none of us who worked with him have had the courage to stand up and shout at the idiots like he did. I wish he had bequeathed us all some "courage"...
I have to wonder if this whole focus on Intelligent Design is just another so-called "cause" to distract us from the real damage this administration is doing "in God's name." We could sure use some of his clarity right now...
Man, I sure miss you, Harrison!

[salin]

11. welcome to DU

the actions out of the state house are becoming more and more absurd.

I am a brain-drainer, returned (left for Metro DC, then Meto Detroit and most recently the Cal. Bay Area) had the Bay Area not been so expensive to live in to make it nearly cost prohibitive for working in the nonprofit sector, and the siren call of being closer to family, I wouldn't have returned. Craziness such as this might push me back out of the state.

[Philo]

14. Thanks for the welcome

I'm not a native Hoosier, but was imported about seven years ago by my wife. I'm originally from Wisconsin. When we first moved, I honestly wasn't prepared for the difference. Even now, I feel like a stranger in a strange land.