What the hell is with those RED states in the middle?

[bush equals idiot]

What is it they don't get about this George fuckin shithead Bush?

14-16 of them clumped together like a fungus.

All located in, or right near the Mountain time zone. There are some good people in those states.

Why don't they want America to prosper and be respected again?


:hurts:

[Art_from_Ark]

1. Too many single-issue voters there

Abortion
Guns
"God"

[Barney Rocks]

3. and don't

forget "gays"

[bowens43]

51. or science......

[richmwill]

2. No helping them...

"Mah pastor tells me to vote for Bush!"

[LiberalFighter]

26. Tell him GAWD told you that gw* is the anti-christ

or tell him that GAWD told you to vote for Kerry

[TransitJohn]

58. Well, as a resident of one of those

(and IMHO the greatest state in the Union) Wyoming, it's not so much religion as it is the $$$$$ thing.

[GHOSTDANCER]

4. The Koolaid is stronger than ever

[Hello_Kitty]

5. They've been raised to distrust 'Noo Yawk liburls' n/t.

[Newsjock]

6. Mark Morford sez ...

http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/morford/
Why Don't Americans Care?

Let's be honest. Percentage-wise, few people in America really give much of a crap about what's going on in the hallowed halls of politics and power.

This is what we in the media and maybe you in the media-consuming audience tend to forget far too easily: This country is simply jam-packed with millions of people who have no time for, or interest in, politics, or media, or environmental policy, or education, or global issues, or which presidential candidate lied his ass off about which aspect of his military career and which Orange Alert is totally bogus and how many soldiers are dying for what imbecilic war.

It seems hard to believe. But the general rule of thumb is that major cities are slightly more attuned due to aggressive media saturation and how issues tend to make themselves known more urgently, more immediately, whereas Middle America is a scattershot conglomeration of the politically apathetic and the actively disenfranchised, full of people far too busy with their lives and kids and jobs and zoning out on "Fear Factor" and "Monday Night Football" to care about following the elitist, ever dire dramas playing out on the nation's gilded stages.

Most Americans, in other words, have no idea what the hell a Halliburton is. Or a Karl Rove. Or a Donny "Shriveled Soul" Rumsfeld. Or a Lockheed Martin. Or a Carlysle Group. Or have any idea that Saddam had nothing whatsoever to do with 9/11. Or that WMDs were never found. Or that President Bush has taken more vacation time than any president in U.S. history. Or that Jesus thinks Dubya is "sort of a dink." Or where Iraq is on a map.

more

[XOKCowboy]

7. Gawd, Guns and Gays

Hate to say it but that's where I come from. I even see it here in Colorado. I'm happy to say that there are some free thinkers in those areas but most get their news from their pastors and other's just like themselves.

The good news is that most are working people and they're being hit hard by the bad economy and high gas prices. They may be simple but they're not dumb when it hits them in the wallet.

[bush equals idiot]

9. So

Why then are they wanting to re-elect the same incompetent dictator that has about the worst economic record in history?

If they think God is such a big issue for them in politics, God must not be doing such a good job. Don't they remember the Clinton days?

How about religion in church, and a little truth and competence in the White House?

[LiberalFighter]

28. They have limited media sources

Small town newspapers have limited space for important news. And even then it is geared towards a specific segment of the community.

Small towns are not going to have a more diverse audience. The level of education and type of education of small towns will not be as diverse. Fewer percent of the population will have had the exposure from outside their community.

[NEDem]

8. I live in Nebraska

its all about abortion.

Some very intelligent people, yet they vote based on ONE issue, which leads me to question how intelligent they really are.

Kerry support here is a lot stronger than you may realize, at least I'm seeing ten times the amount of public support (stickers, yard signs, etc) than I have seen in the past, the problem is that the single issue people are so numerous that the rest of us get screwed come election time.

We split our electoral votes here, and we have a very good shot at picking up a Democratic seat in congress, which would translate into 1 electoral vote for Kerry. I'm not holding my breath on it, but it really might happen. Pug candidate is a weak fundie who has only lived in NE for a short time. It could happen.

[NJCher]

10. I was born in that state

I had to move away at an early age because the people are so ignorant. Nice, but very ignorant.


Cher

[NEDem]

55. My wife and I are seriously looking to move out of here.

I am disgusted by how simpled minded most of the people here are.

[LiberalFighter]

29. Even if it is close that means gw* has to divert their resources

Which district has a good shot?? Is their a major city in that district?

[NEDem]

57. 1st district

RNC has diverted 400K into the race, DNC answered with 200K.

The 'big' city is Lincoln, 250k people. District is freaking huge, pretty much the entire southeastern part of the state.

The pug candidate is from Louisiana, and has only lived in the state for 8 years. Nebraskans have this lack of trust of outsiders. Dem candidate is naturally conservative/moderate but compared to a fundie I'll take what I can get.

[TheFarseer]

31. not sure what you mean by......

picking up a seat in congress would translate into 1 electoral vote for Kerry. You mean a vote for Connelly would logically go hand in hand with a vote for Kerry? I don't think it will work out that way and anyway I think that would be more likely in the Omaha district. I'd be real happy if we got Connelly in congress though. You're right about the single issue voters. I lived with two of them for 18 years : )

[NEDem]

54. That is exactly what I am saying.

If Connealy wins down here, and he does have a very good chance, his victory would ensure 1 of the 5 NE electoral votes went to Kerry. NE has 5 total votes, statewide winner of Pres race gets 2 the other 3 are allocated based on the outcome of each of the congressional races. If Thompson beats incumbent we'd get 1 for that district too.

[KharmaTrain]

11. A Great Analogy I Heard Today

Can't remember where among the cacaphony that's been happening, but they addressed the difference between red & blue states and the commentator had a very interesting take...and one I think merits some creedence.

He said that the blue states are far more diversified with minorities while the red states are homogenous, almost xenophobic. Democrats attact the minorities that are spreading inland from the coasts and the homogenous states are trying to fight it. Methinks this person was leading right to the thesis for the "Democratic Century" I keep hearing about.

[LiberalFighter]

30. The more diverse a community...

the more people have to get along better. Especially in bigger communities.

Smaller communities the residents don't have to be friendly to everyone and can live in isolation to some degree.

[DieboldMustDie]

12. See "What's the Matter with Kansas?

How Conservatives Won the Heart of America" by Thomas Frank

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0805073396/qid=1097122138/sr=2-1/ref=pd_ka_2_1/102-6897376-5127364

[bush equals idiot]

17. Well that's just sick.

"It's more important for them to own an AK-47, than it is to be concerned about being able to afford a life-saving operation for their child."

Like I said, what in the hell is wrong with those people?

There are "country folks" on the edge of that red bible zone, and they're Democrat voters. It really makes you wonder what made these people think the way they do.

They're really screwed up.

[ComerPerro]

44. Great book, great man

Great speaker, great read.

[gumby]

13. The Supremacy Disease

This nation is choking on its own supremacist attitudes.

Racism
Sexism
Anti-Gay
Christian supremacy -- even the abortion voters do so because they believe in the supremacy of their religious beliefs.
Unilateralism -- WE're so much better than all those other countries, who cares what they think?
Guns -- *I* can have my gun because *I* say so, so there.

The right is REALLY the "if it feels good, do it" party. Everything they stand for is about them being "better" than someone else. And they have been educated by hate-radio to exhibit their supremacist attitudes with a bold swagger. Bush's handlers really captured this with the aircraft carrier strut.

That "who cares what you think" swagger that * does so well is what those * voters REALLY love. He shows them in so many ways that they are perfectly wonderful to hate their neighbors, entire segments of this nation and the entire world.

[evilqueen]

25. I agree with what you say about hate radio.

Radio today is not the radio I grew up with. Today it's controlled by maybe 5-6 big corporate media conglomerates... very little room for dissenting voices, very little room for real *live* DJ's playing their own music choices (everything seems like pre-programmed crap). I remember when WLS Chicago used to be one of the largest AM stations in the entire midwest. At night you could hear it hundreds of miles away, and the night time DJ's played whatever the callers wanted to hear. I even remember Wolfman Jack filling in as guest DJ a couple of times.

Today, it's half the power it used to be. It's programming can't be heard unless you're near Chicago. And it's all talk radio. I don't know if it's dominated by the wingnuts or not because I can't hear it from here anymore.

But I do know one thing: We have to take back the public airwaves, and that might happen soon, especially if all corporate radio moves to satellite. We have to revamp the FCC too. The rules for Internet Radio are extremely complex and they are unfair to small-time citizen start-up DJs, and the reporting requirements and fee structure is impossibly expensive (over the air radio doesn't have the same rules or fees).

[guitar man]

14. Oklahoma here

Too many people here have been so thoroughly convinced tha liberals are the devil that little can be done to rescue them. It's the Bible belt and free thinking is the path to Hell.

The fact is, most people I talk to here believe so many things that simply aren't true re: "Bush good, Clinton bad" that there is no hope of ever reaching them. If one tries to reveal a truth about Bu$hco to them, they will cut you off mid sentance with a loud "WELL CLINTON GOT A BLOWJOB and blah blah blah" It's just a complete waste of time to try and reach them. A complete waste of time.

Sometimes I almost wish Bu$hco would succeed and his brother Jeb would take over after him just so I could see the looks on my
dumb-assed in-laws faces when they FINALLY get it because they are contemplating eating a gun barrel to stop the suffering that their choices have wrought.

But, that would cause the suffering of too many good, enlightened people also, especially people outside this backward hell-hole, so I pray to God every night and day Kerry wins this and we get at least some of Congress back next month.

[life_long_dem]

15. Minnesota went to Gore in 2000 by 3%.

I don't know why it's so close this time. Must be a hell of a lot of small businesses that popped up since then. We are typically DFL. We are overrun with idiots and they managed to vote in a Retardican Gov.. What's this world comming to?

[CrowNotAngelGRL]

16. I live in Tennessee

and here in my town it's pretty even but I've been seeing more Kerry bumper stickers and signs then anything. I went downtown Tuesday to get myself some Kerry stuff (bumper sticker, pen for purse and a tshirt) and there were a lot of Kerry signs down there. (I'm in Chattanooga) I saw at least two Bush/Cheney signs, but there were more Kerry which I was happy to see.

[Zomby Woof]

24. Welcome to DU!

Lived in Hixson many many years ago, which I imagine is fully absorbed into Chattanooga by now. :hi: Welcome!

[tnlefty]

52. Hello!!! I'm in Hamilton County, too, and I'm trying to remain cautiously

optimistic. It seems that there are many more groups trying to oust bush* than I can remember! In addition to the county party, the women's club, Women for Kerry, MOB (mothers opposing bush*) and others are very busy and very vocal.

I've been very amused at the rwingers having fits since Max Hackett took over the 1-3 afternoon talk radio slot after Jammer was fired. They just can't deal with it and I'm lovin' it!

Maybe I'll run into you somewhere.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

18. I'm in light pink Texas (watch, it will be)

but I live in a burb in which there are Dems who never got the memo they were supposed to switch over to Rep years ago. I'm not talking about Dixiecrats (though we do have some of those), I'm talking about people in their 50s and older who said "no, fuck you, I'm staying a Democrat."

In this suburb (of Dallas) we have a strongly Dem superintendant of schools, a strongly Dem school board (with one damn crazy fundie we are voting off in 2006, mark my words), a half and half city council, a weakly republican mayor (he's pretty liberal on social issues, surprisingly, just a bit good old boy-ish in other ways, but mostly harmless), STRONG union presence (it's a working class, blue-collar, manufacturing and assembly type town, originally), high level of Hispanics, and generally a more tolerant atmosphere than other Dallas burbs, though no one is going to mistake us for deepest Austin anytime soon.

Oddly enough, our OLDEST population in this suburb is our MOST strongly Democratic. They are the ones driving around with peace sign stickers on their cars and raising hell in the assisted living centers. Odd, eh? But I say good for them.

So it's a weird place. Go just 30 minutes south or WAY north of Dallas and you've got an area so red it looks like pure blood. BUt around here we're holding our own at light purple!

Tinky Winky's color! ROFL!

Oh we just voted 92% - 8% to allow beer and wine sales in our burb. Never was allowed before, except in restaurants where you could get everything including hard liquor. Now I'll be able to drive three blocks and get beer or wine. Still have to go to Ft. Worth for the hard stuff, though. But someday.

Oh and we do have a strong church presence here (this IS still Texas) but fortunately all but a few of them are VERY moderate to laid-back. We just have a couple of smaller fundie whacked out churches.

So it's not bad! I'm hoping TX numbers surprise everyone!

[txindy]

20. I'm right with you!

I think Texas may just pull off a big surprise the night of November 2nd. I'm hopin', anyway! :toast:

[John_H]

19. Having lived there WI is no surprise.

All that cellulite has migrated from their asses to their brains.

[bush equals idiot]

21. Did the Crawford paper there endorsing Kerry

cause any Republicans to see the light?

[highplainsdem]

22. It's more evenly divided than the red/blue maps indicate.

http://lists.electorama.com/pipermail/election-methods-electorama.com/2001-December/006899.html

If the state-by-state 2000 election results in that table, the percentages for Bush and Gore, are correct -- I'm not entirely sure they are, since this is the first table that turned up in a quick search using keywords -- then Gore received more than 60% of the vote in only the District of Columbia (85.16%) and Rhode Island (60.99%).

And Bush received more than 60% of the votes in only 7 states, and more than 61% in only 4 of those 7, with the highest percentage, 69.22%, in Wyoming.

So talking about differences between red and blue states is like talking about radical differences between two groups of 10 people, where one group has 6 people who like Brand A and 4 who like Brand B, and the second group has 4 people who like Brand A and 6 who like Brand B. Or groups of 20 where the split is 11 to 9.

On less important issues, we'd admit that those groups, though not evenly divided, were still fairly balanced.

With something as crucial as the presidential election, even fractions of percentages matter...but it still bothers me that Democrats living in blue states where 40% of the electorate voted for Bush in 2000 sometimes act as though Dems living in states where 40% voted for Gore are practically on another planet.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

23. Hey good point!!!!

I say that living in a state that gave 38% to Gore and hopefully will be giving around 49% to Kerry this time!

[Qanisqineq]

27. I couldn't agree more with this statement

"it still bothers me that Democrats living in blue states where 40% of the electorate voted for Bush in 2000 sometimes act as though Dems living in states where 40% voted for Gore are practically on another planet."

:yourock:

[George W. Dunce]

32. 100 years of farming and foregoing school

They will catch up in a 100 years or so.

[Qanisqineq]

33. what the heck?

I grew up in one of those red states. I went to college, both of my parents went to college, both of my sisters went to college, all of my aunts and uncles went to college, only one cousin out of 12 did not go, more than 80% of my high school class went to college... and I grew up in a rural community in ND and my dad is even a farmer. My grandparents are all first generation Americans and couldn't afford to go to college.

[George W. Dunce]

35. You and your family are not the norm

Not saying it insult you, I don't take any Massachusetts remark in here as a direct insult to me. Just my take on why they are so easily swayed by republican hate,disguised as morality.

[Qanisqineq]

43. you don't know what the "norm" is

I am not trying to attack you, but I have lived and worked on the east coast and people there know very little about the middle of the US. The whole farming thing, not that many people farm anymore and many DO go to college.

[secular_warrior]

34. good points - but the average Republican in Rhode Island

is still more liberal than the average Democrat in Oklahoma.

I think we can guage the situation much better by comparing regional ideology instead of regional partisanship.

The political center in blue states is much more liberal than the political center in red states.

So while the polarization may be less than the simple red/blue map would suggest, we are still a highly polarized nation. I read somewhere that most congressional districts are safe, that years ago it would've been common for a liberal and conservative to live next to each other but now people tend to only live among those who share their political views. Hence the regional polarization. Liberals tend to live in the high population, diverse metro areas, while conservatives tend to live in the lower population, white "retro" areas. It is more of a metro vs. a retro divide than anything else.. a divide of lifestyle.

[deckerd]

39. Nothing diverse about "metro" areas

Sorry. They are highly segregated and the most liberal places in the country tend to be the places where the stratification between rich and poor is greatest. That is the problem faced by contemporary liberalism -- the center in blue states has moved rightward too on everything but cultural issues.

One of the most integrated school system in the US by some accounts is
Topeka, KS. Southern schools are also more integrated on average than
northern metro areas schools.

Liberalism has a problem in the red states because it has lashed itself
to urban elites (and I mean white people.) This makes it impossible to
disseminate any kind of populist message.

[secular_warrior]

42. Metro areas are ethnically diverse, in terms of population

And if you look at the red/blue map by congressional district, the picture becomes clear: highly populated areas vote Democratic, moderate to low populated areas vote Republican. In terms of geography, there is actually much less than 50% blue area than red because blue areas are essentially cities and their surrounding suburbs, while red areas are everything else.

It is true that metro areas are highly economically stratified, but the people are very socially liberal, tend to get along pretty well, and vote for the same party in national elections.

It is also true that contemporary liberalism is very tied to the urban and suburban elite, but I don't see that changing anytime soon. The upscale, liberal neighborhoods which vote solidly Democratic today were Republican strongholds 50 years ago. The way people vote has always been based on region. For the most part, the Democrats were based in the South and the Repubs in the industrial north. The parties have simply switched regions since the civil rights era.

It's never going to go back to the New Deal Coalition when only an economic message mattered. I disagree with Frank's "What's the matter with Kansas?" argument. There is no hope to get those regions back. We are trending towards an America divided along metro vs. retro. People are much more bitterly divided over social and cultural issues -- over way of life. Poor red staters tend to vote with rich red staters, and poor blue staters tend to vote with rich blue staters.

And the only reason Democrats dropped populism is the DLC. It is not the fault of upscale liberals, who are voting against their class anyway when they vote Democratic now. Liberals of all economic classes want to help the poor, and want the populist message.

[secular_warrior]

36. They are still fighting the civil rights war, and some are still fighting

the Civil War.

Just because we may all assume the civil rights debate ended doesn't mean conservative whites ever accepted any of it, any more than the south ever accepted the outcome of the Civil War.

To answer your question in one word: RACE. That is the reason the red states vote Republican and are moving ever further to the right. It is kind of a white Chrisitian counter-revolution; "white flight" on a national scale.

Sure there may be other right wing reasons like god, guns and gays, but racial superiority is still at the heart of the right wing mentality which sets the framework for the smaller issues, IMO.

[tedoll78]

40. I can see that.

A friend went canvassing in rural Louisiana a few elections ago, and one voter actually asked her: "Well.. which candidate are the blacks voting for?"

She informed the voter, and the voter replied, "Well then, I'm votin' for the other guy."

And the thing is, I can easily imagine this mentality in plenty of other folks around there.

[secular_warrior]

53. Exactly. Many liberals don't full understand this point:

Red state America (especially the south) will never simply come over to Democrats on "pocketbook issues". I disagree with the argument in "What's the matter with Kansas?", that they will come back if we pitch a more populist message. These people left the party knowing the Dems were better on economic issues for the poor and middle class. They left over the civil rights movement and social liberalism.

Lets face it, these people have ALWAYS voted for the party that was more hostile to anything non-white/non-Christian. They voted for the Democratic Party for 100 years because Lincoln's Republican Party freed the slaves. Now they vote with Reagan's Republican Party because it largely opposes civil rights and social justice advocated by LBJ's Democratic Party. Economics isn't the issue that moves these voters. Race is.

[sofa king]

37. I have a theory....

Here is a list of the current expenditures per student, K-12, by state for 2001-2002 (see Table 5 at the bottom of the page).

http://www.nea.org/newsreleases/2003/nr030521.html#t5

Here is a map of the United States in the election of 2000, with blue states going to the Democrats and red states going to the Republicans.



Here is a map of the United States using the data from the link above, with blue states representing the top 20 expenditures on students, and red states representing the bottom 20 expenditures on students. (Note that I had to leave out Alaska and Hawaii, but as a general rule, if the place is too small to be accurately represented on this map, it spends a lot on education and votes Democrat.)



It's not an exact match, but it's close enough for horseshoes.

This may also explain why George Bush, our "Education President," hasn't actually delivered on his education promises. Perhaps he doesn't want to undermine his base.

Any and all errors above are mine. But I have an excuse: I'm from Virginia, one of the "stupid states."

[WildEyedLiberal]

38. Why rural people vote for Bush .... well, with their logic, anyway

Illinois is a really interesting case study in this ideological divide.

We are a blue state for three reasons: Chicago, Chicago, and Chicago.

I am from downstate, east central Illinois to be exact. Here, while there is far from the epic ignorance found in the Bible/Corn Belt states, there is a definite conservative element, especially in and around the rural counties. Most of these people are farmers or factory workers, and many over the age of 40 do not have a college education, and, from my experience growing up in one of these towns, conservative sentiments stem from 1) religion and 2) defense. Because Republicans have so effectively painted themselves as the Party of Christ (which is total bullshit, but I digress), many Christians vote for Bush as a matter of faith, because of abortion, gay rights, or even Bush's inane repetition of the words "faith" and "values."

Also, rural people prefer the Republican idea of foreign policy - guns 'n bombs - over the Democratic one, which involves actual diplomacy. Rural people - who like to hunt, fish, and watch NASCAR - understand bombs far more than nuanced and complex understandings ogf issues, or summits, or sanctions. Thus, they feel they are "safer" when bombs start falling, and that because Bush has deployed troops, he is "defending" America. A crock of horseshit, but there you go.

The educated people from small towns turn into corporate Reublicans - the kind who are Republicans because they like business and tax breaks and really don't care for "handouts" to the poor. There are plenty of Democrats and liberals in small town America, don't get me wrong - I am one - but we're certainly not the majority, and that's why.

[aldian159]

49. I agree

I live in Chicago, but spend tons of time at a friend's in Mahomet, in Champaign Co. A little over two hours away and its a whole 'nother world. Without Chicago, IL would be a mirror image of Indiana.

[Francine Frensky]

41. Where is that chart of IQ, income level, and vote in 2000, by state??

There's a great chart out there that lists all the states and how they voted in 2000, that also includes average income by state, and average IQ by state.

Of course, all Gore states are at the top, having higher incomes and higher IQ's.

I was honestly surprised that the income and IQ rankings match up so closely.

[hatrack]

45. "Fags & Flags" - Oh, and a whole lotta JEEZUS!!!

Robert Kaplan has a really interesting take on the Great Plains states and the mentality of people who live there in "An Empire Wilderness". Check it out.

[LuminousX]

46. Purple States

Only a few are tried and true RepulsiveStates, most are borderline. This is why we need people to really invest some time and energy in those states on voter education efforts.

[jerryman814]

47. Do you really think....

Billy Bob Johnson in North Dakota cares about people dying overseas when his sustenance consists of wheat and cattle byproducts?

I mean really. If you go to these midwest states, many of these people live on open plains. As long as their crops continue to grow, they will want Bush to stay in the White House. That explains why metropolitan areas (New England, West Coast) usually lean towards Democrats while rural areas (Midwest, Norhtern Midwest) lean toward Repugnicans.

It's not a matter of them being ignorant or not caring. it's a matter of stability, and they have that with Bush, for now.

[On the Road]

48. Too Far from the Borders and Too White

Isolation breeds isolationism.

[dicknbush]

50. Boring leaders for boring people leading boring lives!

In my humble opinion. No thuth on the airwaves and so they swallow what the goopers tell them.

[skygazer]

56. They're fucking idiots

Sorry, pardon my language but I'm pissed. I just got an email from my daughter in Kansas, a loyal Bushbot, in which she called ME a hypocrite because I speak of being openminded but in her opinion, I'm just a parrot for Kerry or somehting.

Now, mind you, in our ongoing email debate, she throws out NOTHING but the same stale (and false) talking points, she tells me the other day she loves Sean Hannity and fucking O'Lielly, she never has any actual facts to back up the wierd claims she makes.

I, on the other hand, have been opposed to the war in Iraq since before it began and have never wavered on that. I have sent articles and reports, not from far left news outlets but from mainstream news, I've quoted statistics with their sources, pointed out the lies and inconsistencies, I've done all the homework to show her the truth and I'M a hypocrite?! :wtf:

I sent her an e back and basically told her "fuck you. You don't like it? Dont' talk politics with me."

They're fucking morans, man. Only explanation. I am disgusted.

[DURHAM D]

59. Kansas checking in.

Grew up in central Kansas- small town. About once a year my mother tells me that black people are moving into the state by the bus loads. She hears it from her friends and actually always believes it. I always ask her why they are moving here ? She always says it is for the better living conditions and jobs. Hello - no jobs. Hello -no fun. I always ask her if they have gotten any offers to buy the farm from a black farmer.

When they pick me up in the big city (the Wichita airport) I always ask her if she has been counting the number of black people in the airport and if there are more than the last time. She laughs because she knows it's stupid but can't help herself. It is a totally white (mostly German) world where she lives.

Also, they like the price supports.