Help! My (R) leaning friend won't vote for Dean, but would for Clark

[Selwynn]

Help me Dean supporters, or just good democrats in general!

I have a friend who is an amazingly great guy. He's been traditionally conservative, because that's how he was raised and he wasn't particularly thoughtful about politics until he met, well, me.

Now he's really spent a lot of time rethinking issues, and before the field of democrats even solidified, he was always confessing to me that for the first time, he was seriously looking at democratic nominees, and strongly considering voting for a democratic president.

However, the problem is this: Dean totally turns him off in every way. Now, this is not a bash Dean thread. I actually want help convincing my friend. But for the record, so there's no appearance of deception, I'm a Clark supporter. The reason I'm asking for help is because, like most of us, if my candidate does not get the nomination, I will support the democratic nominee - because I believe the platforms of ALL the democratic candidates are far better for the country than the agenda of Bush.

So, my friend is just very turned off by Dean's style, approach, blah blah blah. I know we all get tired of hearing it about Dean, and a lot of it is unfair. But my friend was very adamant in how much Dean turned him off. He actually really liked Clark. But my deal is - I want my friend to vote Democrat no matter who gets the nomination.

So seeing as how Dean is a front runner, if Dean gets the nomination what would be some ways I can convince him that Deans policies are more fair and just, and better for the country than Bush? Keep in mind my friend is a Christian, though by no means a fundamentalist, so at some level he thinks of things in terms of moral black and white.

My thought to start would be to first of all, show him an alternative policy in Iraq that would bring our troops home faster and safer than than quagmire hell Bush has us in. Then I thought that maybe I could convince him Deans economic plan makes far more sense.

I would give anything if I could convince him by talking about reclaiming our civil liberties and balancing the budget but I don't think those arguments would be convincing.

Again - what I'm asking is this: my lifetime conservative friend is starting to see the evils and corruption of Bush. He's considering voting democrat, and said if Clark was the nominee he almost surely would but he would not vote for Dean. I want to show him why he should still vote democratic if Dean is the nominee. So help me! :)

Sel

[mot78]

1. Welcome to the Clark camp Selwynn

:evilgrin:

....Seriously, don't try convincing him to vote of Dean. Tell him to vote for Clark in the primaries if he wants to, but tell him that Dean also has similarities and stress his record. Maybe you can make him into ABB.

[schultzee]

16. Compared to Bush the Corporatist, any democrat looks great.

[Clark4VotingRights]

43. Another welcome!

n/t

[SheilaT]

2. What it comes down to is,

does he want Bush to remain in power or not? That's the reasoning all of us need to use to persuade us to vote for the Democratic nominee no matter who he is.

But here's a few points to bring up:
Dean would restore the combat pay and benefits to the military. Dean, who balanced the budget for eleven years in Vermont (a state without a balanced budget mandate, by the way) would work to balance the federal budget.

I'll let others add to this.

[vi5]

4. But that reasoning doesn't always apply to non-Dems...

To us it's a no brainer. We will vote Dem no matter what. But to people who were persuaded to vote for Bush once, chances are they are disenchanted with him and his policies. It doesn't mean they hate him and it doesn't mean they will automatically not vote against him this time around. Especially if the dem nominee is perceived to be a drastic departure from Bush.

So ABB doesn't always apply to people who are non-dems.

[Selwynn]

10. The problem is, he personally doesn't see Bush like we do

...the only reason he even is thinking about someone but Bush, is because I hammer him every day with more stuff about Bush's lying, whoring, power grabbing etc.

But he is basically a guy who doesn't feel as passionate about politics as most of us here do. If it wasn't for me constantly putting his face in it every day, I doubt he would even know anything about the primaries or watch anything about the campaigns - he would just go the to ballot box in 2004 (if he did that) and vote for Bush without thinking, cause that's what he was "taught."

I know I'm making the guy sound pretty lame, but he is a great guy, amazing husband to his wife, loyal dependable friend who has really saved my life in some of my dark times.

But I'm not sure if I can turn this guy into an ABB person. I think something would have to happen that would affect him far more personally first. Some people mentioned the draft, and I am talking with him about that - but so far, its not the silver bullet I would really like.

[dd123]

37. Just give him a copy of this article and he will be ABB.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/60minutes/main592330.shtml

The Bush Administration began making plans for an invasion of Iraq, including the use of American troops, within days of President Bush's inauguration in January of 2001 -- not eight months later after the 9/11 attacks, as has been previously reported.

That's what former Treasury Secretary Paul O'Neill says in his first interview about his time as a White House insider. O'Neill talks to CBS News Correspondent Lesley Stahl in the interview, to be broadcast on 60 Minutes, Sunday, Jan. 11 at 7 p.m. ET/PT.

"From the very beginning, there was a conviction that Saddam Hussein was a bad person and that he needed to go," he tells Stahl. "For me, the notion of pre-emption, that the U.S. has the unilateral right to do whatever we decide to do is a really huge leap."

snip

Suskind says O'Neill and other White House insiders he interviewed gave him documents that show that in the first three months of 2001, the administration was looking at military options for removing Saddam Hussein from power and planning for the aftermath of Saddam's downfall -- including post-war contingencies such as peacekeeping troops, war crimes tribunals and the future of Iraq's oil.

[incapsulated]

3. Two suggestions

What is it that he dislikes about Bush?

See if Dean's positions on those issues are the same as Clarks and stress that.

What is it that he likes about Clark?

Find out how Dean may have a similar position and stress that.

Good Luck. :)

[pasadenaboy]

5. Is there much

hope being rational with someone who makes their decision on whom to vote for based on "style" and "approach" there is nothing you can say to them.

Anyone who votes based on these type of unquantifiable feelings is not someone you can have a rational discussion with.

How can anyone answer your question. So and so doesn't like your candidates "style" and "approach". Please fix that. What do you expect people to say?

If he has a problem with his policies or his records, those can be discussed, but if he is a conservative who doesn't like Dean's "stlye" than I guess he'll vote for Bush or stay home.

[Selwynn]

14. That's not true.

I support Clark partly because I like his style.

I bet you can have a rational discussion with me though.

I don't believe his objections to Dean are superfluous. I don't want to put words in his mouth, because I'm afraid someone will accuse me of "stealth" attacking Dean which I'm not. But I think his concerns have more to do with not believing his style, approach, temperament and way of dealing with others makes for a good president. Now we might all disagree with that, but -- I don't think trying to change his mind on matters of temperament is the best approach.

I'm looking instead to say, hey this is why this guy is a more just and appropriate choice than Bush, even if he's not perfect, because who is?

...besides yours truly of cos. :)

[pasadenaboy]

15. well, if that's the case

why don't you ask him what issues are important to him? That will give you a much better starting point in figuring out what to tell him, I think.

[NashVegas]

60. Style, Approach, Temperament

Remind your friend of Dan Quayle's "Murphy Brown" speech. Quayle was roundly booed for it, it was presented awkwardly and accusingly and as a result, no meaningful dialog took place between disagreeing sides.

Then tell him about how Dean had a situation thrust on him, he went with his conscience without crowing about it, and then traveled around the state of Vermont into direct talks with those who bitterly disagreed with him, and in so doing created a meaningful enough dialog to get re-elected.

Ask your friend what kind of temperament someone who allowed so many people to unload their anger on him, and so patiently respond, must have?

[kerry-is-my-prez]

30. My friend thinks Dean is "dishonest" and refuses to vote for him.

She also thinks there's something wrong with him - because of his anger. I talked her into voting for the Green Party - better than for Bush (sigh).

[Salviati]

6. I would suggest to him to look at dean carefully for himself...

Don't rely on the media to tell him what Deans "style" is, because the media has a history of misrepresentation, and an agenda that is not nessicarily to be objective. If he does this, and is still turned off, then if Dean does wind up getting the nomination I'd ask him what kind of future there is for the Republican party if bush gets another term. If he really is a traditional conservative, hopefully he'll understand that it really is in his intrest to see the bush campaign go down hard in november, in order to begin the eradication of the neo-con influance...

[Clark4VotingRights]

7. Sounds like your R friend could be a good influence on you in this regard

But in the event that Dean gets the nomination, I
hope you can persuade them to vote against fascism and BushCo.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

33. The Reps I know who are voting for a Dem are concerned about Partiot Act

and the war in Iraq (they know all about PNAC).

[KissMyAsscroft]

8. I doubt your friend would really vote for Clark...

He would still vote for Bush...

I wouldn't worry

[Clark Can WIN]

51. And you are basing this crystal ball assumption on?????????

what???????????

[WI_DEM]

9. Just tell him that Dean

is fiscally responsible and advocates a sensible foreign policy. Ask him to check Dean's positions.

I know how it is. I have three friends, two are Nader voters in '00 and they will only vote Dem this time only if Kucinich or Dean is nominated--Clark's GOP past turns them off--and maybe the reason why it helps with your friend. The other friend is a Republican but will vote Democratic only for Dean and Clark--becuz (hip, hip horray) he is strongly against the war. I asked why not Kucinich and he said, "he is too far to the left for him."

Anyway good luck.

[poskonig]

11. If these Republicans love Clark so much,

turn them out at the polls in the upcoming weeks and win the nomination for Clark.

Many Republicans say they'll vote for the "principled" Lieberman, but I'm a skeptical person by training.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

28. I have three who've changed voting registrations.... So they're serious...

n/t

[bain_sidhe]

12. Why does he "lean" Republican?

That's the key, I think. I know a lot of people who lean republican, most of them due to economic issues, some due to social issues. The argument's different depending on what it is about republicanism as an ideology that makes him identify himself as one.

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

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[schultzee]

17. I am walking away from republican friends and leaving them alone.

Because I consider them responsible for tearing down our democracy and keeping their heads in the sand.

[Selwynn]

20. I will never walk away from this friend for as long as I live (nt)

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[kerry-is-my-prez]

35. Just let the air out of his tires on election day.....

n/t

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clark Can WIN]

52. That's a great way to bring people into the party

and help heal the nation <sarcasm off/>

[EXE619K]

19. LOL!

Well, that's always an option!




DEAN LEADS THE WAY!

[Turkw]

47. You might be tainted by association and questioned as to whether you are

a real Democrat by some, if you don't. I say find issues that he has in common with the majority of Democrats (and I say majority, because we DO allow differences in this party) and hopefully you will lead him to joining us. The more the merrier, Big Tents R US.

[Killarney]

18. I wouldn't worry about it now

There's a good chance Clark will be the nominee and then he will vote Dem. If Dean becomes the nominee, you can work on him then (I would use Bush lies). Give yourself a head start and have him watch 60 Minutes tomorrow night. Should be pretty damning to Bush!

Good luck. :)

[Selwynn]

21. what's on 60 min? I guess I missed something!

[Killarney]

24. here you go

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/01/09/60minutes/main592330.shtml?cmp=EM8707

:toast:

[YellowDawgDemocrat]

23. Perhaps you and he should attend the next Dean meeting

You know, let him see for himself what the campaign is about. Of course, attending a Clark meeting could change his mind and you might lose him. Since he already likes Clark, you would be better off introducing him to Dean supporters.

[JNelson6563]

22. The answer is easy

you need to make your friend understand that any one of the candidates would be better than Jr because none of them would be nearly as bad.

It is just as CMB said at a recent debate, when asked what she would say to a voter who wasn't crazy about any of the Dem candidates. She replied "I would tell that person to take a good look at George Bush."

That was brilliant IMO. :toast:

Julie

[Zan_of_Texas]

29. In some elections, NONE OF THE ABOVE wins.

Meaning, 32% of registered voters stay home, 26% vote for candidate A, and 24% vote for candidate B, and with 18% voting for the rest.

I'd go around and find some of those people -- register some who aren't registered. Talk to some who don't usually vote. THAT's where elections can be won -- that 32%. Forget the 1 or 2 or 3% in the ever-changing "middle."

[kerry-is-my-prez]

26. Have a few that are like that. One even said she'd go Green before Dean.

Dean is a tough sell for Repubs - even though he's actually much more conservative than several of our Dem candidiates.

[isbister]

27. The best way to convince him is to hammer away at bush

If this person is on the fence then why waste time picking this Dem with momentum in the polls or that momentum in the polls?

By showing the facts about bush's misleading ways, showing the bush record, I think you'll get where you want to be quicker.

[DancingBear]

31. At the risk of sounding "unpopular"

you won't convince him.

I know many folks like him, based upon a previous job some years ago. The reason they would "turn" for Clark is one reason and one reason only - national security/defense. The folks I know would laugh if I brought Dean up - no smear, just true. He (Dean) can try from now until doomsday but will never acquire the 'standing" amongst these potential crossovers that Clark has.

They PERCEIVE Dean as weak on defense/liberal, and nothing Dean can do will work. He (Dean) has no leg to stand on re: this issue (no military experience, no foreign policy experience), and while it may not matter to those fervently in the Dean camp it does matter to your friend and mine.

You have just been rudely introduced to Real World 101.

P.S. - I am now conversing (via email) with a friend who thinks very much in the same terms as does yours. We've just finished a rather lenghty discourse on the gay bishop controversy in NH. He will vote Clark over Bush, but the mention of Dean makes him, in his words, "physically ill."

Please - no silly comments like "we don't need him" or something like that. He is a leader in saving family farms/slowing housing growth in this community, gives of his time most graciously to others, and is liked by those on both sides of the political aisle. He is the guy you dream about when it comes to crossover potential.

[Name removed]

34. Deleted message

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[DancingBear]

36. Huh??? n/t

[Zomby Woof]

46. I understand his reaction

Dean has made me feel ill for months now.

[stickdog]

32. Give Dean a shot against Bush and he'll change his mind. (nt)

[dansolo]

39. If he is really starting to see the evils and corruption of Bush

Then he should be ABB, period. Just explain that a vote for Bush, whoever the Democratic cadidate, is condoning the evils and corruption of this administration.

[LuminousX]

40. Let him vote for who he wants to vote for

[slinkerwink]

41. bring up Dean's fiscal conservatism and his beliefs on criminal justice

remind him that if Bush is elected again, the deficit will be deeper.

[PurityOfEssence]

42. Stop fighting reality: drop Dean

He's not to the left of Clark. He's not as electable. He's not as electable as Edwards (who's more progressive than either).

Howard Dean has huge negatives. He has huge positives, to, to be sure, but he has HUGE NEGATIVE response from many groups. He is prone to shooting himself in the foot and has made so many mistakes that he's already going to be spending endless time explaining them.

[YellowDawgDemocrat]

44. Ok, you have persuaded me, I'm switching to Sharpton

[bowens43]

63. heard it all before.....

not much of an argument

[Turkw]

45. Perhaps, like many Dean supporters, his support is not transferable

So send him to http://www.forclark.com/
And the Dean supporters should respect this postiton, if it is also theirs.

[mzmolly]

48. I hate to be cynical but I don't *trust* posts like these ;)

All I can say is my husband converted 6 Republicans to vote for Dean. None of which will vote for Clark, they say he's a "nut?"

So...Win some lose some. :shrug:

[Cheswick2.0]

49. oh well

:shrug: one more vote for bush

[Clark Can WIN]

50. This only serves to illustrate what I have said for months

Clark can WIN. Not a squeaker, so skin of teeth but a giant landslide kick them in the gonads kind of victory. That's what I want and Clark can deliver.

[TLM]

54. No he can't.... He would lose like McGovern.

Dems don't win by trying to out hawk the right.


I know Clark supporters have this idea that somehow Clark would get in a debate with Bush and as soon as he pointed to his stars and called W AWOL he election would suddenly be over.

Look at the facts. Cleland... McCain... military service, losing limbs, being a fucking POW, it doesn't mean a god damned thing vs the republicans.

Clark will run on his military service, helping Bush make the election all about war and defense and security... which are the only issues he can possibly hope to run on. SO it becomes a fight over who is the better protector.

Wes, having opted for matching funds and spending caps will be defined by W's crew for 3 or 4 months as the bumbling incompetent old fool who nearly fucked up kosovo so bad that he was forced into early retirement and removed from his command. While Bush will be the hero who saved us from Saddam.

Who will protect us best...the crazy power hungry creepy old man that was fired from his command for almost starting WW III vs the man who caught Saddam.

Clark will try to do the AWOL thing, and W only has to say... "well that didn't stop me from capturing Saddam and protecting merica. My past isn't important, what's important is merica's future."

or

"My service record did not seem to bother you when you said: "And I'm very glad we've got the great team in office, men like Colin Powell, Don Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney, Condoleezza Rice... people I know very well - our president George W. Bush. We need them there."



Clark would lose to W by a f-ing landslide. He'll drive off the green vote. He'll drive off the dems who do not like the idea of career military in the white house. He'll drive off a lot of the folks who want to get away from the lobbyist - defense contractor - white house revolving door.

And all those military votes and moderate republican votes you folks think Clark would get went right out the window when Bush caught Saddam. The idea of winning the election based on defense and security was over the second they found Saddam's shaggy ass in that hole.

Add to that the fact Clark has never run or won a political campaign and never held office... what the hell makes you think he can win?

[SeveneightyWhoa]

56. Thats funny.

I didn't know Clark was "a hawk". Care to back that outlandish statement up?

[TLM]

53. That's because Clark is closer to being republican than Dean...

The problem is that for every leaning republican Clark draws, he drives off a green or a left end dem.


Every time the dems try to win by being more like republicans, we lose. Because given a choice between a republican and a dem who acts like a republican, swing voters choose the republican.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

57. Do you even pay attention to what Clark stands for?

Or are you just talking out of your ass? Apparently, you've neglected to notice what Clark is even saying. Maybe visit his website, or something.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

58. And one more thing:

Dean is more of a Republican than Clark is, IMO.

[mouse7]

55. Let him get involved in the Clark campaign

Let him get exposed to the issues. Let him learn about what's really going on.

Once one gets that involved, if the nominee isn't Clark, then they will still be informed on the issues and will know what a disaster Bush would be compared to any Dem nominee.

[Schmendrick54]

59. A possible suggestion, and thanks.

Hi Selwynn,

First, here is a suggestion for a site which is intended for Libertarians, but contains some articles directed toward conservatives which may be persuasive to your conservative friend.

The site is libertariansfordean.

Second, I want to commend you for a very positive post. I have also met a few people who normally vote Republican but have expressed a willingness to seriously consider Clark (but not Dean). Instead of suggesting that this is proof that Dean cannot win, you have requested help in convincing your friend to vote ABB. If General Clark succeeds in his quest for the nomination, I will remember posts like yours while working hard to help him win the election.

Best Regards,
Schmendrick

[Selwynn]

61. Thank for the responses - I realize I really dont know why he is (R)

so I guess that is the place to start...

[bowens43]

62. this is exactly my point about Clark.

Clark will bring more republicans into our party, having the net effect of moving the party further to the right. Those who were centrists will end up being considered leftists and we leftists will be shoved right into the green party.

We don't need more republicans in our party. Democrats outnumber Republicans as it is. Sure, I agree 100%, that if we become more like them, more of them will vote for us. But why bother if the end result is nothing more then a Republican president with a (D) next to his name?

That's what Clark would be. A Republican president with a bright , new , shiny (D) next to his name. In the end , the Republicans will have one.

[John_H]

64. You may convince your friend but not the 2-3 million dem leaners

that feel the same way. Chimp and Russert are going to tell them a hundred times a day that Dean's not experienced enough to stop evildoers from blowing up their kids "We just don't have time for a learning curve," they'll say. And, if we're honest with ourselves, we know that most of them will buy it.