Tim Kaine was a disgrace this morning on This Week

[eleny]

He allowed Michael Steele to dominate the discussion and walk all over him. How hard should it be to squash Michael Steele for pity sakes?

Kaine is a very nice man. Too nice for the rough work of his job as DNC Chair.

I realize that there's only one Howard Dean and he deserves to have a life. But we need someone else in the job because Kaine comes off as having no fire or passion and very little personality.

When they went to break, Steele even patted Kaine on the back for chrissakes.

It was awful.

[fugop]

1. Sigh

I like Tim Kaine, I do. But I miss Howard Dean's presence as the DNC chair as well. I was thinking today about a piece I read talking about how the youth vote is loyal to Obama more than the Dems. Dean was a guy like that. He had a lot of people on fire for him. Seemed to translate at election time. Again, I like Kaine. When he's on, he's pretty good. But Dean just had that extra something I think, that presence, that killed on news shows!

[eleny]

5. I like him, too

He's smart and considerate. But the DNC chair needs to have some of the street fighter savvy. If Kaine can't dominate Steele, I have some worries about 2010.

[BrklynLiberal]

2. -puke- It should have been Grayson there!!! Then we would have seen a DISCUSSION!

[FrenchieCat]

3. I didn't watch, but I agree that Tim Kaine is ineffective......

That is one of the (many) decisions coming from Obama that I didn't support.
We need an attack dog in that position, and we didn't get it.

[Aramchek]

4. he should have put Steele in the Full Nelson, eh?

[eleny]

7. Or a "Full Dean"

[Gidney N Cloyd]

6. Steele really dominated and rolled over him. Never seen him do that before.

Kaine should have said "Mike, you may be a teabagger but this ain't a town hall meeting. We take turns talking here."

[eleny]

9. I would have cheered if he said that!

[TheBigotBasher]

8. K&R

I miss Howard Deane.

[Clio the Leo]

10. Un uh, not at all...

.... Steele is a loud-mouthed fool and Kaine allowed him to "do his thang baby!"

One of those gentlemen came off as an adult and the other came off as another argumentative politician.

[eleny]

14. We need an adult with some fire for the job - Kaine fails to inspire

If his voice went any lower they would have had to adjust the mic. He's a liability if he fails to exhibit passion.

[Clio the Leo]

17. I'm not sure we need someone as the party strategic head....

... who has this great ability to inspire voters.

Plouffe and Axe, bless them, dont exactly have star quality. But they KNOW how to win elections. It's the candidate who's supposed to fire up the base.

Steele has positioned himself as the figure head of the party. It's a strategy motivated more so by his ego than his ability to accomplish anything (the insanity with which he handled NY-23 is proof of that.) Steele can throw the red meat out to his base ..... BABY! ..... but does he have enough common sense to actually add GOP members to Congress?

Fortunately for us, I dont think so.

[eleny]

20. Howard Dean turned the Party towards a 50 state strategy by fire, zeal and inspiration

That zeal helped to raise the money to maintain a presence in so many more states. I believe it was pivotal in putting O in the White House.

To shift to a quiet mouse as DNC Chair is a huge departure from common sense, imo. We need someone who can at least hold his own. Kaine failed today.

[Clio the Leo]

22. Well, send a letter to the White House.....

... because that's why Kaine is the head of the DNC.

[sandnsea]

33. There is still a 50 state strategy

So many people here are just not involved in what the Obama camp is doing. They DO have staff in every state except WY & UT, and staff is planned there soon.

I'm guessing many places are like my town. The Democrats are so far to the left that it's single payer, out of Afghanistan, and beat the hell out of Obama.

That's where the 50 state strategy went.

[jenmito]

36. There are at least some DUers who don't like the 50 state strategy...

They blame Rahm Emanuel for increasing the Dems. majority by getting Dems. elected who fit their states/districts.

[sandnsea]

38. I think Rahm helped some, and Dean helped others

And some that Dean helped, Stephanie Herseth comes to mind, have been the biggest blue dogs of them all.

I think the Stupak vote should show people what both Dean and Rahm are/were up against. These is what our country is made up of.

[jenmito]

40. Strange that I've only seen DUers blame EMANUEL when it comes to

blue dogs in Congress. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

[madfloridian]

49. NOT when Dean was chair. He helped Herseth as DFA head, not DNC

He kept the DNC clear of primaries.

Meanwhile Rahm and Chuck were right in the middle handpicking the candidates.

So be honest.

[Ken Burch]

37. It's not "Far Left" to say "out of Afghanistan"...it's just sanity

If Vietnam destroyed LBJ, Afghanistan will have to destroy THIS Democratic president.

History proves outside armies can never win in Afghanistan.

Ask any dead British or Soviet soldier.

[sandnsea]

39. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't

I'll wait to hear the strategy. There are a lot of wise Afghan women who want us to stay.

And using the Soviets as an example is kind of bizarre, considering WE are the ones who were supplying the Afghans to defeat them.

The problem is the border, much like it was in Laos and Cambodia. If we don't get Pakistan on our side, then there's no hope for Afghanistan.

Regardless, it is still morally wrong to just leave those people to the stone ages.

[Ken Burch]

41. There isn't really a non-stone ages side, though

The people we're backing are often just as bad as the Taliban.

Kabul itself is the only place where anything even vaguely non-repressive has happened. Which means it's the only place its going to happen.

Also...wasn't Pakistan on our side already?

[sandnsea]

42. I know. I wasn't picking any particular group

And no, Pakistan has not been on our side. It's just been a royal mess, really. A Q Khan and onward. I think it's getting better, but that could easily turn.

I just don't think we can expect to continue moving forward when we've got whole continents of people living on a $1 a day. It's all connected.

I don't know. Maybe we should just stop fighting in Afghanistan completely, make a 44,000 peacecorps surge. But then how do you help the people who want it when you're being blown up by others.

[Ken Burch]

43. I agree with your second passage

It's one reason I think we need to let go of any real defense of the "market values" thing. In the end, people have to matter more than money.

As to the people who want our help...I guess what we have to ask is...ARE we helping them at all?

This just seems so much like the early months of 1965, foreign policy-wise.

[sandnsea]

48. If not, then how do we

The answer to everything cannot just be no.

[Ken Burch]

60. We do need to say yes to something on this

In this case, we need to say yes to negotiations with the Taliban(they've made overtures)and yes to civilian reconstruction of the areas we can help rebuild.

That's what can help. More troops, even when they're handing out candy to the kids, can't. It's not them as people, it's the notion of using force to sort it out. We can't win that way and the Taliban can't win that way(remember, the Taliban were forced out BEFORE we got there).

What terrifies me is that Obama may really buy into the "this is the right war" mythos, and, good man though he is at heart, may see this as the place where he needs to "protect toughness". Those of us who know our party's history on wars(which has been one of failure since 1945) should be wary of any foreign policy situation in which our leader thinks of himself as the next Truman, JFK or LBJ.

I don't want my president to fall into the same trap. And I don't want my grandchildren, some of whom will be of draft age before this president's tenure is through, to face the consequences if he does.

[bertman]

51. Jesus fucking christ, sandnsea, that is EXACTLY the same bullshit propaganda they used

when we were sending 50,000 Americans to die in Vietnam.

They don't live in the stone ages. They live in a tribal culture in lands that barely support human beings, yet they thrive and are the toughest warriors on the planet.

What part of cultural elitism do you not get?

[sandnsea]

53. And Vietnam isn't a tribal culture anymore

Sorry, I don't buy into that "cultural elitism" bullshit. It's wrong to leave people in poverty, clawing by on a $1 a day, not thriving. It's cultural elitism to pat them on the head and ooh and aah at their "happiness" in spite of boiling rocks and grass for dinner.

You cannot rant at the US for not helping end poverty all over the world, and also yell when people sit down and try to figure out what to do about it.

You can't say to leave people alone, and then when they fly airplanes into our buildings, say it's no wonder because we abandoned Afghanistan.

And you can't say we dropped the ball on Afghanistan to justify ending the war in Iraq, and then turn around and scream when we refocus on Afghanistan.

Again, the left has got to have more than just "no" as a political ideology.

[bertman]

55. First off, we Americans have nothing whatsoever to do with Vietnam "not being a tribal culture

anymore"- They had a long, rich cultural tradition and identity long before we decided to invade their nation.

U.S. propaganda DID treat the Vietnamese as a tribal culture even though that was far from the truth for the largest percentage of the population. Even though they were a people who had a thousand years of history we Americans had to turn them into lower-grade humans so we could feel good about slaughtering them in the process of "rescuing them from godless communism". Exactly as we are doing to the "tribal cultures" you want to do your missionary work on in Afghanistan.

You are mistaking me for someone else if you think that I rant at the U.S. for not ending poverty ALL OVER THE WORLD. Although, I would like to see us end it here in the good old USA--or at least make a good go of it. Maybe--just maybe--if we ever achieve that goal we could begin helping others. But I doubt invading them is the way to do that.

And pray tell me which Afghanis were on the airplanes that flew into our buildings? EXACTLY NONE. By your twisted logic we should be invading Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Lebanon, and the United Arab Emirates, the homelands of the alleged hijackers.

Well, certainly I can say that we stopped the military mission in Afghanistan to pour the resources into Iraq. And I absolutely do say that. Because our mission was to capture or kill Osama Bin Laden and we failed miserably at that. We did however succeed in our corollary mission which was to destroy al Qaeda in Afghanistan although our continued presence has generated a resurgence of the Taliban.

"NO" as a political ideology?? You have obviously confused the left with the Republicans.

The ideology of the left is to only fight wars that are defensive in nature due to a threat to our nation. Asking our military men and women to die to protect an oil and gas pipeline in Afghanistan is a crime.

[sandnsea]

59. Our mission was to kill Osama Bin Laden

and our corrollary mission was to destroy al Qaeda.

But there was no reason to invade Afghanistan.

That makes no sense.

The organization of those who attacked was done from Afghanistan. I don't care what nationality the principles were, it's not relevant.

There really isn't any third world poverty in the US anymore. There isn't any reason for 99.9% of people to not have food in this country, there's a food bank about every ten miles and daily meals in every major city. Housing is more difficult, but most places have somewhere that people can get in out of the cold. Compared to those countries that you don't give a shit about, that's not poverty.

I'm not confusing the "no" ideology, the left and right sound so much alike half the time, it's difficult to tell the difference. I'm sure most of them wouldn't give a crap about helping anybody in any other country either. They're the ones always ranting about cutting foreign aid.

Asking our troops to defend oil pipelines is wrong. But that's not the only thing going on in Afghanistan.

[MadBadger]

35. As head of the DNC, I dont think his job is to inspire people.

[eleny]

46. It's one way you get people to donate

Try to get people to donate without some fire and the ability to inspire them about the cause. I don't believe you'd get very far parting people from their cash.

[MadBadger]

50. I think Obama's got that covered.

[eleny]

52. Then we don't need Kaine

[MadBadger]

56. When you have a Democrat in the Oval, the DNC chief isnt all that important.

[eleny]

57. Until he looks like a dunce in the media

[Kurt_and_Hunter]

11. tedious pile of custard that was almost a heartbeat away from the presidency

[grantcart]

45. tedious pile of custard? lol very funny

[sandnsea]

12. I never got Tim Kaine or Mark Warner

My guess is Virginia is a place I wouldn't want to live. Never been there.

We need a woman in that role. Barney Frank's sister, Ann something or other.

[butterfly77]

16. I don't like warner either..

he seems too much like a republicon/Bluedog. I am waiting to see what bag he will jump out of in the next few months..

[Engineer4Obama]

64. I just remember the 2008 Democratic National Convention

Ted, Hillary, Bill all gave rousing inspiring speeches and then we got to Warner. "I used to sell Cell Phones". Compared to Obama's keynote at 2004 it was a HUGE letdown.

[hollowdweller]

19. Kaine seems LAME to me

Now maybe he's a great organizer or fundraiser or something like that?

I don't know. To me both he and Mark Warner are still in the Bill Clinton "I'm a different kind of democrat" role, when times have changed and more people agree with Democratic ideas.

The Chairman should at least be somebody that can go on TV and go to bat for Democratic ideas effectively and I think Kaine is more from the party's past when to get elected you had to prove you weren't liberal.

[MiniMe]

21. Virgina is almost like 2 different states

Northern Virginia is more democratic. It is a suburb of DC. Southern Virginia is very concervative, it would be considered one of the southern states. It would be very difficult for a progressive democrat to win in Virginia. That is why we have Webb, Warner, and Kaine. And Webb would have probably lost if George Allen didn't have his macaca moment.

[Jennicut]

25. LOL! As a New Englander I don't get the blandness of the politicians there.

That being said, Tim Kaine does not really bother me. At least he is not totally outright stupid: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=8740396&mesg_id=8740396

[Sebastian Doyle]

13. Tim Kaine is a disgrace, period.

Anti-choice homophobic jackass.... even by the pitiful standards of Virginia DLC'ers, he's weak.

[beac]

54. As a Virginian, I have to agree 100%.

Kaine was one of the many reasons we got stuck with an American Taliban as his successor. Talk about a DINO... :puke:

[butterfly77]

15. Exactly..

and I couldn't watch because I kept wanting to slap the shit out of steele..

[vaberella]

18. I can't stop laughing at your emoticon so I won't be posting anything meaningful to this thread. n/t

[Fire1]

23. It is cute, isn't it? n/t

[vaberella]

24. And then she was like...Steele gave him a pat on the back. So all I see is Steele patting Kaine. nt

[eleny]

29. That galled the heck out of me

Steele was into this friendly body language all magnanimous and shit. I'd like to puke on his shoes.

Sorry for the delayed response. I'm working on this old computer and haven't been back to DU in a while.

[quantass]

26. Poor Kaine probably felt comforted from the pat on the back...nt

[Ken Burch]

44. Should have remembered the line from the soul classic "Smiling Faces"

"Beware of the pat on your back/it just might hold you back".

[Bitwit1234]

27. This is the guy that had Howard Dean step down for

If Dean had been in to whip up the crowd do you think we might have gotten Virginia. He sure as heck wouldn't have gotten Deeds to run, he was a joke.

[JaneQPublic]

28. After the recent election outcomes in VA and NJ, can you imagine the uproar...

...from James Carville, Rahm Emanuel, and their ilk if Howard Dean had still been the chair?

They would have been squealing like stuck pigs... calling it "incompetence of Rumsfeldian proportions!" But Kaine gets a pass.

If Kaine, as DNC chair and sitting Gov of VA, can't even win his own state, I can't see him being much use elsewhere.

[eleny]

30. He and Obama are dear friends but that isn't enough for the job

And I so agree with you about the "what ifs" regarding NJ & VA.

Btw, I'm sure Kaine feels badly especially about the VA loss.

[Ken Burch]

31. In hindsight, though, was the Virginia race EVER winnable?

And was there any good reason for Corzine to even bother running again? He knew he was doomed to lose going in.

[sandnsea]

32. Both good questions

I wish somebody from NJ would explain why Corzine was running. Wasn't he involved in some kind of scandal in THIS term.

And Virginia, I just throw up my hands with that place.

[eleny]

47. I'd like to know just how active Kaine was in the race

But that's answering a question with a question.

I really don't keep up with Virginia politics. But it's so hard to imagine the administration, with Kaine on the inside, allowing the Republican to get away with running as a moderate when he's to the right of Attila the Hun on social issues. It's like the Dems were asleep.

[DFW]

61. VA might have been winnable

The trouble is, the VA Democrats ignored who won VA last year. A charismatic black candidate with brilliant oratory
and the promise of hope. Instead they ran a mild white conservative whose speeches were about as memorable as a
second grade book report. What the hell did they expect?

NJ would have been winnable if Corzine had not run.

[Ken Burch]

62. Anybody know why Corzine INSISTED on running even though he knew he couldn't win?

Was it just bloody-minded ego?

Virginia doesn't surprise me. The state party there is still an uptight white men's club at the top, and it was probably secretly galling to some of them that an uppity, er Chicago community organizer actually managed to carry the state when no possible Dem candidate other than Chuck Robb was ever supposed to be able to manage it. They'd never admit it, but you know that's in every Virginia DLCer's mind.

[DFW]

63. I think with Corzine it was indeed ego

Virginia can be good for a surprise every now and then. After all, not many southern states have elected black
Democratic governors in the last 100 years. VA did. I think that if they had found another candidate who had the
appeal of a Jim Webb, and the oratory ability of Obama, that we could have pulled off an upset there again. Rahm
and Kaine chose to play it "safe," which in Virginia means political oblivion to a Democrat unless you have some
mighty coattails to ride. This year there were none, and a State like Virginia will tend Republican unless given
a compelling reason not to. Webb, Obama and Warner gave that reason. This year's gubernatorial candidate did not,
and we reaped the predictable result.

[Mass]

34. He is generally a poor interviewee. Today was no different.

[burning rain]

58. That's probably why he's chairman--because he's mild & pliable.

Doesn't make for much of a party spokesman, though--or a leader. Seems that presidents routinely put in flunkies as party chairmen--think of Bush's chairmen, and Terry McAuliffe under Clinton. Probably not a coincidence that we got Dean, and the Republicans got Barbour--quite an able chairman for Republicans in the early-mid '90s--in years when the other party held the White House.

Happily, there's an easy solution. Debbie Wasserman-Schultz is one of Kaine's deputies, and could be sent in his place when the DNC needs a teevee gladiator. On her worst day she kicks some ass.

[WI_DEM]

65. He's no Howard Dean that's for sure.

[Bluenorthwest]

66. Kaine is a bigot. Anti gay, anti-choice

and his skill set is weak and he is dull as dishwater. But first and foremost he is a homophobe, which is why Obama digs him so. And of course, his own State just lost the Governorship to the GOP. That is Tim Skill on display.

Had he been the VP pick, I'd not have voted for the ticket. Palin or no Palin. Kaine is Palin with a brain of sorts. Stunned and hate filled, but a brain of sorts