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Serious q, is this true? PELOSI: Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail

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Christa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 08:58 AM
Original message
Serious q, is this true? PELOSI: Buy a $15,000 Policy or Go to Jail
Someone sent it to me.

Today, Ranking Member of the House Ways and Means Committee Dave Camp (R-MI) released a letter from the non-partisan Joint Committee on Taxation (JCT) confirming that the failure to comply with the individual mandate to buy health insurance contained in the Pelosi health care bill (H.R. 3962, as amended) could land people in jail. The JCT letter makes clear that Americans who do not maintain acceptable health insurance coverage and who choose not to pay the bills new individual mandate tax (generally 2.5% of income), are subject to numerous civil and criminal penalties, including criminal fines of up to $250,000 and imprisonment of up to five years.

In response to the JCT letter, Camp said: This is the ultimate example of the Democrats command-and-control style of governing buy what we tell you or go to jail. It is outrageous and it should be stopped immediately.

Key excerpts from the JCT letter appear below:

H.R. 3962 provides that an individual (or a husband and wife in the case of a joint return) who does not, at any time during the taxable year, maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for himself or herself and each of his or her qualifying children is subject to an additional tax.

If the government determines that the taxpayers unpaid tax liability results from willful behavior, the following penalties could apply

Criminal penalties

Prosecution is authorized under the Code for a variety of offenses. Depending on the level of the noncompliance, the following penalties could apply to an individual:

Section 7203 misdemeanor willful failure to pay is punishable by a fine of up to $25,000 and/or imprisonment of up to one year.

Section 7201 felony willful evasion is punishable by a fine of up to $250,000 and/or imprisonment of up to five years.

When confronted with this same issue during its consideration of a similar individual mandate tax, the Senate Finance Committee worked on a bipartisan basis to include language in its bill that shielded Americans from civil and criminal penalties. The Pelosi bill, however, contains no similar language protecting American citizens from civil and criminal tax penalties that could include a $250,000 fine and five years in jail.

The Senate Finance Committee had the good sense to eliminate the extreme penalty of incarceration. Speaker Pelosis decision to leave in the jail time provision is a threat to every family who cannot afford the $15,000 premium her plan creates. Fortunately, Republicans have an alternative that will lower health insurance costs without raising taxes or cutting Medicare, said Camp.

According to the Congressional Budget Office the lowest cost family non-group plan under the Speakers bill would cost $15,000 in 2016.

http://republicans.waysandmeans.house.gov/News/Document...



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Avalux Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
1. Of course! Anything sent by a Puke has got to be real! n/t
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:18 AM
Response to Original message
2. I hope nobody thought universal health care was going to be free
And it doesn't work unless everyone participates and contributes. And that has to be enforced somehow--since good intentions don't always lead to proper behavior.

Of course these penalties are worse case scenarios. If everyone who broke the law got the maximum jails and prisons would be full and the collection of massive fines would really take a chunk off the national debt.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. It's interesting when people bring up this point.
I don't think people believe "that healthcare will be free". The point is that for the taxes we already pay, there should be enough money to have at least a Canadian-style type of healthcare system. The point is that we need to cut the military budget and spend that money on America's greatest treasure/resource -- American citizens.


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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #13
30. Government is FULL of expenses that could be cut for healthcare
Military is just a drop in the bucket.

The real problem is that the pwoers that be don't want to cut anything, they just want to add more.
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Occam Bandage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
3. Tax evasion is a crime? Heavens, I'm shocked.
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ljm2002 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Well, if paying for health care is a tax...
...then why don't our lawmakers just come right out and say so? If it's a tax, then tax us all and have the government be the single payer.

Oh, right. That's too radical. Instead we have a provision that people must buy insurance, mostly from private firms, with a weak (and slightly more expensive) public option available -- but if they don't buy it, there is a tax penalty. On a non-tax.

Sorry, your argument does not actually stand up to analysis. It's not a tax; ergo, it is not tax evasion. Or, it is a tax, in which case the Democratic leadership has been lying to us, since they insist it is not a tax. Which is it?
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babylonsister Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:46 AM
Response to Original message
4. Phony Jail Bait Politics

http://blogs.cqpolitics.com/trailmix/2009/11/phony-jail...

Phony Jail Bait Politics

By Craig Crawford | November 8, 2009 12:00 AM


Yet another myth is the foolish claim that we go to jail if we don't insure ourselves. Now that the House has passed the Democratic healthcare bill get ready for more baby talk from opponents. Like those arguments that requiring all Americans to get insurance will put them in jail. Sure, there's a tax penalty if you don't get insurance. Refuse to pay the penalty or risk imprisonment. But refusing to pay any tax risks jail, not just this one.

You can't get a driver's license without insurance. No one calls that fascist. C'mon people now, get your health insurance. If you can't afford it, the House bill provides options.

Scaring people into thinking that you go to jail if you don't get insurance is just another example of baby talk from the powers that be.
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Thanks, babylonsister. Here's more on this yesterday from Media Matters..
Drudge, WND distort health care bill to fearmonger about cost of insurance, possibility of jail time

November 07, 2009 11:10 pm

Matt Drudge and WorldNetDaily.com both falsely asserted that, in Drudge's words, the House health care reform bill states that people must "buy a $15,000 policy or go to jail." In fact, as stated by the Joint Committee on Taxation letter on which Drudge's and WND's claims are based, the bill does not impose criminal penalties on people merely for failing to purchase health insurance; rather, people who do not buy health insurance and also willfully refuse to pay the tax imposed on them for such actions can face civil or criminal penalties.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200911070007

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66 dmhlt Donating Member (935 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. You can always count on MediaMatters.org for facts
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Keefer Donating Member (176 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. In Pa.
My girlfriend has a drivers license. She has no car and, obviously, on car insurance. You CAN get a drivers license without insurance.
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Bitwit1234 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:49 AM
Response to Original message
5. Think about this
The democrats in the house, got this bill thru and on to the senate. The name of the bill is AFFORDABLE HEALTH CARE and it is for all people. So who but a dumba** republican would come up with the democrats making people pay $15,000 if they don't get this insurance. One of the provisions they listed is...if you can't afford the premiums they will help pay for it.

Again the republicans are just piling crap on to make people not want the bill to go thru. They know the difference, they don't care how many people they scare to death as long as they can stop the bill.
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AndyA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
6. Do you really believe that they are going to put people in jail because they're too poor
to pay for health care insurance? What a nightmare that would be for them. This thing still isn't done, the Senate has to pass whatever it's going to pass, and then the two have to be merged. A lot can still happen.

I'm pretty sure the Dems aren't going to allow the "they will put poor people in jail because they can't afford health insurance" tag to be hung on them.

And this bill is just the first cut. It will need to be revised and updated in the future, I'm sure they'll make it better. If anything, they'll have to expand the public option to bring costs down more, and I would bet that's their intention anyway. They had to get the door open first, though, and with so many backwoods ape shit crazy people against any form of reform, this was the only way to do it.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. I don't trust the Dems at all! They promised a 'robust' public option, instead...
we were given an expensive exchange; Romney care for short!
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BklnDem75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. 'I don't trust the Dems at all!'
Revealing indeed!
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. Here is why I don't trust the Democratic establishment
Bush and Gephardt at Rose Garden, October 2, 2002


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BklnDem75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. Funny you should mention Gephardt...
Since 2007 Gephardt has served on the advisory board of Extend Health insurance company, graduating to the board of directors earlier this year. However, his biggest involvement has been with the pharmaceutical industry. In addition to a large lobbying contract with the Medicines Company, Gephardt serves as chair of the Council for American Medical Innovation (CAMI), formed by and affiliated with PhRMA. In this capacity he has hired his own firm to lobby for the organization, to push to extend patents and block cheaper generic drugs from the market. In 2009 began Gephardt advising UnitedHealth Group, one of America's largest private insurers, in waging a strong campaign against a public option for national health care.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Gephardt#Political_vi...


He doesn't like the Public Option either.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Evan Bayh's whore of a wife, Susan, sits on the board of Wellpoint
Now you know that these assholes are not going to fight for the people.
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BklnDem75 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Then I don't get it...
Knowing they're working so hard against the Public Option, why are you making their job easier by pushing it to fail in any form?
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Kerry, Dean, Edwards, Hillary,
This is what they all proposed. This has been the plan for years. In fact, the public option is more than what most of them ever expected to really get. Having payments negotiated instead of tied to Medicare isn't enough of a difference to say it's not robust.
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Garam_Masala Donating Member (711 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
28. What penalties are there for driving without liability insurance?
What if you can afford a cheap car but not the insurance?
Are you fined and put in jail?
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
7. That is pattently absurd hyperbole
The penalties are for wilful refusal to participate in the program, not for failure to buy insurance.

The difference is that if you are not covered by employer health insurance, and cannot afford to buy health insurance yourself, then you are an "affordable credit eligible individual" and can apply for such credit. If you apply for the credit then you are participating in the program and not subject to penalties.

US citizens making less than four times the federal poverty level can apply for such credit. That means individuals making less than $43K, and families of 4 making less than $88K

Quote from page 247:

GENERAL.For purposes of this division, the term "affordable credit eligible individual" means, subject to subsection (b) and section 346, an individual who is lawfully present in a State in the United States (other than as a nonimmigrant described in a subparagraph (excluding subparagraphs
(K), (T), (U), and (V)) of section 101(a)(15) of the Immigration and Nationality Act)

(A) who is enrolled under an Exchange participating health benefits plan and is not enrolled under such plan as an employee (or dependent of an employee) through an employer qualified health benefits plan that meets the requirements of section 412;

(B) with modified adjusted gross income below 400 percent of the Federal poverty level for a family of the size involved;

(C) who is not a Medicaid eligible individual, other than an individual during a transition period under section 302(d)(3)(B)(ii); and

(D) subject to paragraph (3), who is not enrolled in acceptable coverage (other than an Exchange-participating health benefits plan).


Here is the text of the bill:

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbna...

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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Thank you, the best explanation I have heard here on penalites and credits
I was a bit confused on what people would get as far as credits go but this really clears things up for me.
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
29. Thanks, Xipe.
could someone answer this..What about age limits? If you're 65 or older you can just get medicare, right?..and you don't have to buy insurance?

Thanks~
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 10:00 AM
Response to Original message
9. It is true! Pay up to insurance industry or we will fine you.
This bill is obscene and it is not what we voted for last November!
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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #9
31. have you lost your mind? jesuh h christ.
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Hutzpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 01:09 PM
Response to Original message
16. If you are on this site
and believe that crap, then it's more about you than the person who sent it.
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Hamlette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
20. yes, and there are death panels too. The Democrats got elected to kill you and hurt poor people.
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Aramchek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. thanks for spreading the Repuke trash
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jberryhill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
23. "Someone sent it to me."

Yeah... really?

And did you win the Dutch lottery... get free prescriptions... help Nigerian widows with their finances... and wonder where Obama's birth certificate is?

A lot of weird things come by email.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 02:57 PM
Response to Original message
25. Did you know that Barack Obama was born in the U.S. and is a citizen?
Just checking.
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Christa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. I am not that naive
I am a member of StumbleUpon and it was stumbled to me. I asked a question, not need to get your knickers in a twist.

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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:20 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. a seriously repukish flame-baity question.
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hileeopnyn8d Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:34 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. I saw it more
as someone trying to compile the facts in order to refute something that was sent to them.

I might be wrong. But I actually appreciate that she asked the question because there were some great answers and links to articles refuting the claim. I can't tell you how many times in the last couple of days I've seen this particular right-wing talking point, there were several letters to the editor in my local paper, and an op-ed all using this meme.

I knew it wasn't true, at least not as stated, so it's nice to have a good counter argument.

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dionysus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:39 PM
Response to Reply #33
35. well, i have to agree with you when you put it that way.
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Onlooker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-08-09 09:37 PM
Response to Original message
34. It's true in the same way it's true with car insurance
If you don't have car insurance and refuse to buy it, ultimately you could end up in jail. The Republican argument is absurd. You can't have a law without having a penalty in order to enforce it.
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